(weblink)a Scientific Approach To God's Exsitence.

Cxwf · June 2005

Cyndane--there's details, then there's big picture. Egyptian and other religions may share some details with Christianity, but the main point is completely different.

And no, the main point isn't "tolerance" or "being good"--those are side points. The main point is this--

God wants Man to live and be with him. But Man is sinful, and cannot reach God, ever, <i>no matter what he does!</i> Man must pay the price for sin, which is death.

BUT!! God loves Man, so he pays the price instead. Now, Man can reach God, <i>not by doing anything exceptionally good himself</i>, but because God has <i>already</i> done the good thing. Salvation is now free.

NO OTHER RELIGION IS EVEN CLOSE TO THAT!!!

Cyndane · June 2005

Actually the main point is very similar.

Christianity: Follow god's rules and believe in him and you wil reach heaven.

Buddism: Follow buddist teaches and you will reach eventually the final stage of enlightenment.

Hindism: Follow Krishna and you will be re-incarnated eventually into nirvana with him and live happily ever after.

Lakota: Believe in the mother goddess and you can live with her. (Christianity much?)

Jainism: Follow buddist teaches, but do no harm to any living creature, and achieve enlightenment.

Need I go on?

All religions have an option of going to heaven and it almost always requires two things.
1. Belief.
2. Following basic rules of being "good".

Cxwf · June 2005

Note that you totally screwed up on Christianity's main point, so as to make it look more similar to the others.

Lets break these down into two categories.

Category A--
You can go to heaven if you have 2 things:
1. Belief
2. Follow Basic rules of being good

Christianity..er..I mean Category B--
You can go to heaven if you have 2 things:
1. Belief
2. Repentance

Following the rules of being good just isn't in there. Thats a side point that comes after belief. Once you believe, you should want to be good--but being good is NOT what gets you into heaven.

Cyndane · June 2005

Each religion also has its own repentence structure, whether it be a few days/weeks/months in silence/prayer/fasting/etc.

The end result is companionship with god/allah/nirvana/etc.

Same end result same basic rules.

You do not even know your own religion cxwf... sad.

Go and read <a href='http://www.christiananswers.net/q-comfort/heaven-goodenough.html' target='_blank'>this</a> then come back and talk.

Cxwf · June 2005

Its possible I don't know <i>your</i> religion. It's possible I am completely wrong on what I am saying about Egyption religions, or Buddhism, etc. But I know my own religion pretty well--apparently better than you, for all your theological training.

Note that if you actually <i>read</i> the link you posted, it agrees with everything I said.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Each religion also has its own repentence structure, whether it be a few days/weeks/months in silence/prayer/fasting/etc.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Ok, granted most probably do. But that wasn't the point. I'm not claiming that repentance is unique to Christianity. I'm claiming that Christianity is unique by NOT including the "be good" command as one of its prerequisites for salvation.

Cyndane · June 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (cxwf)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
I'm claiming that Christianity is unique by NOT including the "be good" command as one of its prerequisites for salvation.
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Yet it is a requirement, it isn't the first step by any means, but it is a requirement. Even if you keep violating gods laws, you can't get back into heaven without repenting. Which follows exactly the same theology that all the others as well.

There isn't anything unique about Christianity other then there intolerance for other religions to survive among them, however they are not the only one, Islam is another one.

Legionnaired · June 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cyndane @ Jun 1 2005, 09:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (cxwf)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
I'm claiming that Christianity is unique by NOT including the "be good" command as one of its prerequisites for salvation.
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Yet it is a requirement, it isn't the first step by any means, but it is a requirement. Even if you keep violating gods laws, you can't get back into heaven without repenting. Which follows exactly the same theology that all the others as well.

There isn't anything unique about Christianity other then there intolerance for other religions to survive among them, however they are not the only one, Islam is another one.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
Uhh, no, it's not.

When you accept Christ, that's it. End of the story.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ephesians 4)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Living as Children of Light
17So I tell you this, and insist on it in the Lord, that you must no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking. 18They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts. 19Having lost all sensitivity, they have given themselves over to sensuality so as to indulge in every kind of impurity, with a continual lust for more.

20You, however, did not come to know Christ that way. 21Surely you heard of him and were taught in him in accordance with the truth that is in Jesus. 22You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; 23to be made new in the attitude of your minds; 24and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.

25Therefore each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to his neighbor, for we are all members of one body. 26"In your anger do not sin"[d]: Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry, 27and do not give the devil a foothold. 28He who has been stealing must steal no longer, but must work, doing something useful with his own hands, that he may have something to share with those in need.

29Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. 30And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, <b>with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.</b> 31Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. 32Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Being good comes later. After Salvation. This passage is written to Christians, and Paul makes no note, AT ALL, of any sort of requirement. Rather, he says they are <b>sealed with the Holy Spirit of God</b> until the day of redemption. Once you're saved, nothing can shake that, not even your own actions.

Cyndane · June 2005

Apologetic disagreeing with you Legionaired... didn't even take that long to find.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (http://wpfj.org/heaven.htm(Web Pages for Jesus))</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
The letter T stands for Turn. The word the Bible uses for Turn is Repent. <b> The Bible tells us that, "Unless you repent, you will all likewise perish." Repent means to change the direction of our lives. We are to stop going in this direction and start going in a new direction. We are to turn away from sin and our own selfish ways of doing things and turn to Jesus Christ and His direction for our lives. </b> The Bible tells us that, "Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures; and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures." The Bible also tells us that, "If you confess with your mouth 'Jesus is Lord,' and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved". It really is that simple. This brings us to the letter H.
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Repent, be good, and you are saved.

Same values and actions as any other religion, just different names.

Your own quote from the bible even supports this, which is funny since it contradicts exactly what you previously said.

If you do not repent you are not saved, end of story.

Legionnaired · June 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cyndane @ Jun 1 2005, 10:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Apologetic disagreeing with you Legionaired... didn't even take that long to find.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (http://wpfj.org/heaven.htm(Web Pages for Jesus))</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
The letter T stands for Turn. The word the Bible uses for Turn is Repent. <b> The Bible tells us that, "Unless you repent, you will all likewise perish." Repent means to change the direction of our lives. We are to stop going in this direction and start going in a new direction. We are to turn away from sin and our own selfish ways of doing things and turn to Jesus Christ and His direction for our lives. </b> The Bible tells us that, "Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures; and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures." The Bible also tells us that, "If you confess with your mouth 'Jesus is Lord,' and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved". It really is that simple. This brings us to the letter H.
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Repent, be good, and you are saved.

Same values and actions as any other religion, just different names.

Your own quote from the bible even supports this, which is funny since it contradicts exactly what you previously said.

If you do not repent you are not saved, end of story. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
We're talking at the same thing. Kind of.

Right, repent. But where does it say there that action has to follow that? Where, in that above quote, or ANYWHERE IN THE FREAKIN BIBLE does it say that you must be good to go to heaven? Or that repenting for your actions must be tied to an action other than confession and acceptance of Christ? Read what you quoted. "If you confess with your mouth 'Jesus is Lord,' and beleive in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." Where does it say you have to give money to the poor, or do any other typical good deed.

The bible teaches that when you repent for your actions, it's not doing good works for the rest of your life, it is at one moment, at one instance, asking Jesus Christ's sacrifice on the cross to cover the sins we ourselves have commited.

That is a once-and for all thing.

Did Jesus not say to the man dying on the cross next to his that he would "see paradise this very day?" Surely, he did absolutely no good works, did not prove his faith, never had a chance to act it out.

Yet, he's in heaven.

Salvation is not dependant on action.

BulletHead · June 2005

Guys, let me just say this

The origional bible/koran/whatever was made a long time ago, in a language that, when translated, had a lot of words with no equal...

Legionnaired · June 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BulletHead @ Jun 1 2005, 10:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Guys, let me just say this

The origional bible/koran/whatever was made a long time ago, in a language that, when translated, had a lot of words with no equal...  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
That approach has been tried before, and has fallen on its face every single time.

The words used in the bible appear not only in literal context, but also in historical context. We can look at other writings and know that apolutrosis means salvation and charis means grace, that the writings as they appear are accurate to the point of being able to understand exactly what was meant when they were written.

Cyndane · June 2005

For once I agree with legionaired. You can compare the bible or any religious texts with similar works and be able to have a rough meaning of what is said.

I do not believe it to be exact, for many of the words that were used back then had lots of meanings, but we can decipher the general idea.

You can't hold up that it is so old it can't be translated, perhaps on the old testament(ancient hebrew 30,000 word vocabulary) somewhat, but not nearly as much on the new testatment(ancient greek 250,000 word vocabulary), although some words are clearly being used incorrectly now.

Cxwf · June 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cyndane @ Jun 1 2005, 10:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Apologetic disagreeing with you Legionaired... didn't even take that long to find.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (http://wpfj.org/heaven.htm(Web Pages for Jesus))</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
The letter T stands for Turn. The word the Bible uses for Turn is Repent. <b> The Bible tells us that, "Unless you repent, you will all likewise perish." Repent means to change the direction of our lives. We are to stop going in this direction and start going in a new direction. We are to turn away from sin and our own selfish ways of doing things and turn to Jesus Christ and His direction for our lives. </b> The Bible tells us that, "Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures; and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures." The Bible also tells us that, "If you confess with your mouth 'Jesus is Lord,' and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved". It really is that simple. This brings us to the letter H.
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Repent, be good, and you are saved.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
You keep adding extra words...it should be this.

"Repent, and be saved."

In understand it must seem very strange not to have that extra "be good" in there...after all, EVERY OTHER religion has it. But that just goes to prove that Christianity is not, in fact, derived from those other religions.

Cyndane · June 2005

No I don't, look at legionaired post, or look at this FROM HIS POST.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (bible in legionaireds post)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
25Therefore each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to his neighbor, for we are all members of one body. 26"In your anger do not sin"[d]: Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry, 27and do not give the devil a foothold. 28He who has been stealing must steal no longer, but must work, doing something useful with his own hands, that he may have something to share with those in need.
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Cxwf, christianity did indeed get almost all of its morals from society as a whole, especially evident in the new testament.

Legionnaired · June 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cyndane @ Jun 1 2005, 11:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> No I don't, look at legionaired post, or look at this FROM HIS POST.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (bible in legionaireds post)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
25Therefore each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to his neighbor, for we are all members of one body. 26"In your anger do not sin"[d]: Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry, 27and do not give the devil a foothold. 28He who has been stealing must steal no longer, but must work, doing something useful with his own hands, that he may have something to share with those in need.
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Cxwf, christianity did indeed get almost all of its morals from society as a whole, especially evident in the new testament.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
This speaks TO CHRISTIANS! Look at it IN flipping CONTEXT! "Sealed with the Holy Spirit of God, until the day of Repemption!"

Paul urges people to act in ways befitting their newfound birthright as Christians, but they are by NO MEANS a requirement for salvation!!!

Look at the verses before 25 as well: 20You, however, did not come to know Christ that way. 21Surely you heard of him and were taught in him in accordance with the truth that is in Jesus. 22You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; 23to be made new in the attitude of your minds; 24and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.

"Created to be like God in true Rigeteousness and holiness?" That doesn't sound like words directed to those who are in danger of losing their salvation.

And as long as we're actually looking at passages in context, let's look at Ephesians 2 while we're at it:

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ephesians 2)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>1As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature[a] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. 4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. <b><i><span style='color:red'>]8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.</b></i></span> 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Yes, you will note that verse 10 talks about doing good works, but these come <b>AFTER</b> salvation.

Cyndane · June 2005

Yet, later on, after you are "saved" and you do your repenting, you stil must maintain the good works. Else you shall lose your salvation, and before you even start "omg wth."

I think you need to read it in context as well, for it does state that should you ever not acknowledge god, then you shall lost your said salvation.

Nothing unique about that.

Legionnaired · June 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cyndane @ Jun 2 2005, 10:17 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Yet, later on, after you are "saved" and you do your repenting, you stil must maintain the good works. Else you shall lose your salvation, and before you even start "omg wth." </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
No. It says that since you have been saved, since you have become a new creation in Christ, you are to act in a manner worthy of your new calling. There is no punishment for disobediance here, though.

If you have to maintain your salvation by works, then your salvation was never by faith at all.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I think you need to read it in context as well, for it does state that should you ever not acknowledge god, then you shall lost your said salvation. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Chapter and verse?

Cyndane · June 2005

Not my words, just something I found interesting. I shall post the link at the bottom, so you may look at it.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
First, to receive salvation, we must believe in God.

"And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him" (Hebrews 11:6).

* "I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins" (John 8:24).

"I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith" (Romans 1:16-17).
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
You and I both knew this though legion, just getting it out of the way is all.

You must do good deeds.
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Do you believe in God?

* Is believing in Jesus or accepting the only necessary step in being saved?

* We must do more than just mentally believe in God, for we must obey His commandments and teachings as well.

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven" (Matthew 7:21).

"We know that we have come to know Him if we obey His commands. The man who says, “I know Him,” but does not do what He commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys His word, God’s love is truly made complete in Him. This is how we know we are in Him: Whoever claims to live in Him must walk as Jesus did" (1 John. 2:3-6). (See also 1 John 5:3; John 14:23).

"Although He was a son, He learned obedience from what He suffered and, once made perfect, He became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey Him…" (Hebrews 5:8, 9).

"This is love for God: to obey His commands. And His commands are not burdensome" (1 Jn. 5:3).

Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him" (Jn. 14:23).
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
You have to believe in Jesus/God/Holy Spirit, in order to be saved.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
* When Jesus appeared to Saul on the road to Damascus, Saul believed in the Lord (Acts 9:3-6). At that point, was he saved just because he believed? No, because Jesus sent Ananias to teach Saul what he needed to do in order to be saved (Acts 22:12-16). "Be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on His name" (v. 16). Saul was saved, not just because he believed, but because he obeyed the Lord's will and was baptized for the remission of his sins.

* The Demons believe in Jesus, however, they will not be saved (Mk. 1:24; Jam. 2:19).

"What do you want with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are—the Holy One of God" (Mk. 1:24).

"You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder" (Jam. 2:19).

* Faith without works is dead (Mt. 25:31f).

"In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead" (Jam. 2:17).

"As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead" (Jam. 2:26).
Belief in the Lord is essential to salvation. However, it is just the beginning of the salvation process. We must be willing to obey and be faithful to the Lord as well
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Second, to receive salvation, we must repent of our sins.

"I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish" (Luke 13:3).

"In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now He commands all people everywhere to repent" (Acts 17:30).

Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord" (Acts 3:19).

“But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die. None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him. Because of the righteous things he has done, he will live. Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?" (Ezekiel 18:21-23).
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
At this point it explains what repentence means, but I don't think we need to include that. Heh. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' />

How to go about being repentant according to the bible.
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Here is the biblical process of repentance:

True Repentance Involves:

(1) Admitting that we have sinned against God.

"I will set out and go back to my father and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you" (Luke 15:18).

"Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the LORD" (2 Samuel 12:13).

"If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness" (1 John 1:9).

* The first step to repentance is admitting that we have sinned against God. We must admit that we are sinners and are in need of God's forgiveness.

(2) Feeling remorse for what we have done.

"Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death" (2 Corinthians 7:10).

"Come near to God and He will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded. Grieve, mourn and wail. Change your laughter to mourning and your joy to gloom. Humble yourselves before the Lord, and He will lift you up" (James 4:8-10).

* After admitting that we have sinned against God, we should feel remorse. Our mourning should move us to turn away from our sins and start living better Christ-centered lives.

(3) Turning away from sin and striving to live righteous lives.

"No one who lives in Him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen Him or known Him" (1 Jn. 3:6).

"If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God" (Hebrews 10:26-27).

* We cannot truly repent, if all we do is admit our sins, and feel sorry about them. We must forsake our sins as well. We must turn away from them! We should love the Lord so much that we should want to turn away from our sins.

(4) Making restitution to people we have wronged only when it is possible (Numbers 5:5-7).

* Repentance is an important part of becoming a Christian. It lets God know that we are serious about living Christian lives. If we really love God and want to spend eternity with Him in heaven, then we will turn away from sin and follow His commands.

* It is important to understand that we do not have to be perfect in order to give our lives to the Lord. We only have to be willing to make the necessary changes and strive to live godly lives.

* We need God working in our lives first to help us make the changes necessary to live the Christian life. We cannot do it on our own power; we need God's assistance.
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Now comes the baptism part, which is neccessary, if you are not christian already... go figure.
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Third, to receive salvation, we must confess faith in Jesus Christ.

"Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven" (Matthew 10:32, 33).

* Confessing faith in Jesus means that we acknowledge that Jesus is the Son of God. We believe He is who He claimed to be. Then, we will always look for opportunities to share Jesus with others.

4. Fourth, to receive salvation, we must be baptized for the forgiveness of our sins.

"Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned" (Mark 16:16).

"Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:38).

"…and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1 Peter 3:21).

"And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on His name" (Acts 22:16).

To receive forgiveness of our sins.

Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:38).

"And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on His name" (Acts 22:16).

* When we are baptized, we come into contact with the blood of Jesus which cleanses us from our sins.

"Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? We were therefore buried with Him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life" (Rom. 6:3, 4).

* After we are baptized, every sin that we have ever committed will be wiped away and remembered no more. No matter what we have done in our past, God will forgive us. We become a new creation.

"as far as the east is from the west, so far has He removed our transgressions from us" (Psalm 103:12).
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Fifth way to have salvation.
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Fifth, to receive salvation, we must live faithful godly lives to the end.

"Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life" (Revelation 2:10).

"All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved" (Matthew 10:22).
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

All taken from this site.
<a href='http://www.biblecenter.com/salvation.htm' target='_blank'>Bible Center (Salvation)</a>

Conincides with the fact, you must try to be good, but if you mess up you can still be forgiven again, but if you do mess up, you must ask again for salvation, after reach instance.

Again legion, christianity is not unique, all of the religions offer something similar in this reguard. You mess up, fine, repent, try your best, and ask for saving/salvation/etc.

Legionnaired · June 2005

Oh joy, now instead of working with bad logic, I get to rip through bad logic AND bad theology.

The argument that works are required after faith is doubletalk: Is we are saved by faith, we cannot also be saved by works. If we are saved by works, then faith is way out in the first place.

James 2 Refers specifically to how Faith is manifested in action. James uses Abraham as an example, pointing out that Abraham's actions were the ones that showed other people his faith. His faith was only <b>useful to others</b> when backed up by works. Works are NOT for salvation, only for making your salvation apparent to others.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>(2) Feeling remorse for what we have done.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Horrible Theology. Though remorse will often lead to someone asking forgiveness, it is not always the case, and it is not required.

James 4, BTW, reads better as 'Humble yourself before the lord,' not express sorrow.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>No one who lives in Him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen Him or known Him" (1 Jn. 3:6).

"If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God" (Hebrews 10:26-27).

* We cannot truly repent, if all we do is admit our sins, and feel sorry about them. We must forsake our sins as well. We must turn away from them! We should love the Lord so much that we should want to turn away from our sins.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

1 John refers to position and identity: Positionally, we haven't sinned because God has made us sinless. "Sin has no power over you."

Hebrews 10 Is the part of the letter not written to Christians; You'll notice a break in the text immediately before 26. Looking at this in context, see that it refers to those people that "have not accepted the Son." IE, not Christians, IE people with no Salvation to lose.

<i>This part is based on horrible theology.</i>

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>(4) Making restitution to people we have wronged only when it is possible (Numbers 5:5-7).

* Repentance is an important part of becoming a Christian. It lets God know that we are serious about living Christian lives. If we really love God and want to spend eternity with Him in heaven, then we will turn away from sin and follow His commands.

* It is important to understand that we do not have to be perfect in order to give our lives to the Lord. We only have to be willing to make the necessary changes and strive to live godly lives.

* We need God working in our lives first to help us make the changes necessary to live the Christian life. We cannot do it on our own power; we need God's assistance.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

What the hell? They use a verse from Numbers 5 to define life as a Christian? I can see "Don't let the sun go down on your anger," but this? "New wine, New wineskins."

<i>Horrible flipping theology</i>

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Baptism! Wraaaa!</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

I see your legalism and I raise you a <a href='http://www.tektonics.org/af/baptismneed.html' target='_blank'>J.P. Holding.</a>

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Fifth, to receive salvation, we must live faithful godly lives to the end.

"Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life" (Revelation 2:10).

"All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved" (Matthew 10:22).</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Rev 2:10 Affirms another biblical principle: That the works that we do on Earth will be rewarded in heaven. Those who faithfully serve may govern in some capacity in Heaven, but salvation is guarunteed to all.

Matthew 10:22 can be used to argue the possibility of apostasy as a threat to salvation, but that's a different matter entirely than having to work for your salvation.

Cxwf · June 2005

I'd reply, but Legionairred says it better than I do.

Depot · June 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cxwf @ Jun 2 2005, 07:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I'd reply, but Legionairred says it better than I do. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Same here, Legionairred's doing a fine job. Ima spectate a while longer. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' />

Cyndane · June 2005

<i>Just a foreword from myself, I am not even making these arguements.

I did like the Holding article Legion, it was quite through, but there was a complete debasing of it on the forums, and the moderators edited the entire post to say what they wanted to, I do wish I could have seen the orginal format. </i>

Same as before, link shall be at bottom.

And we continue with christian vs christian.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
What Salvation Is

The Biblical Terms Explained

There are several Biblical terms that identify God's salvation. Understanding these terms helps us to understand the full scope and priceless privilege of God's grace.

A. Saved
B. Salvation
C. Redemption
D. Justification
E. Regeneration
F. Conversion
G. Reconciliation
H. Atonement

Saved

The first term associated with salvation is "saved". The Greek word for "saved" means to deliver or protect. It means to heal, preserve, to make whole.

The meaning is clear...God's salvation is intended to deliver us from the power of sin, to protect us from it, remove the consequences that are associated with sin, and to make us spiritually whole again.

"She will bear a son, and you are to name him Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins." Matthew 1:21

(words of Jesus) "If anyone hears me and doesn't obey me, I am not his judge--for I have come to save the world and not to judge it. But all who reject me and my message will be judged at the Day of Judgment by the truths I have spoken." John 12:47-48

"How true it is, and how I long that everyone should know it, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners" 1 Timothy 1:15

"For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life. Indeed, God did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Those who believe in him are not condemned; but those who do not believe are condemned already, because they have not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and people loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil. For all who do evil hate the light and do not come to the light, so that their deeds may not be exposed. But those who do what is true come to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that their deeds have been done in God." John 3:16-21

"Then everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved." Acts 2:21

"Because of his kindness, you have been saved through trusting Christ. And even trusting is not of yourselves; it too is a gift from God. Salvation is not a reward for the good we have done, so none of us can take any credit for it. It is God himself who has made us what we are and given us new lives from Christ Jesus; and long ages ago he planned that we should spend these lives in helping others." Ephesians 2:8-10

"Then he saved us--not because we were good enough to be saved but because of his kindness and pity--by washing away our sins and giving us the new joy of the indwelling Holy Spirit, whom he poured out upon us with wonderful fullness--and all because of what Jesus Christ our Savior did so that he could declare us good in God's eyes--all because of his great kindness; and now we can share in the wealth of the eternal life he gives us, and we are eagerly looking forward to receiving it. These things I have told you are all true. Insist on them so that Christians will be careful to do good deeds all the time, for this is not only right, but it brings results." Titus 3:5-8

Redemption

The word "redemption" comes from a Greek word that means, "to cut away, to sever, to deliver".

This term is used in the Bible to inform us that God's salvation has the power not only to save us from the consequences and punishment of sin ...but also to deliver us from its power by severing (cutting away) sin from our inner character.

We are not saved "in" or sins but we are saved "from" them. God's salvation cuts away sin from our life...that we no longer are motivated or controlled by it.

"He it is who gave himself for us that he might redeem us from all iniquity and purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good deeds."

Titus 2:14

Justification

This term is used to define the "legal" aspect of God's salvation. As sinners we are guilty before God and deserving of punishment. To stand in God's eternal court as a sinner means to stand without any defense whatsoever. The punishment will be severe and justified.

But in God's salvation the punishment for sin is removed. We are no longer a sinner in the eyes of our eternal Judge. Justification means that God declares a believing sinner to be righteous and acceptable before Him because Christ has borne the sinner's sin on the cross.

" It will be reckoned to us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, who was handed over to death for our trespasses and was raised for our justification. Romans 4:24-25

"Therefore, since we are justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" Romans 5:1

"since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God; they are now justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a sacrifice of atonement by his blood, effective through faith. He did this to show his righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over the sins previously committed..." Romans 3:23-25

Regeneration

The term "regeneration" is further used in God's salvation to reveal the miraculous act of the "new birth" or "being born again". God's salvation is a spiritual transformation that takes place in the life of the repentant sinner. It is a change that takes place by the Holy Spirit of God who enters into our life...converting our attitude, character and devotion to a righteous life in God.

The "new birth" is a miraculous event accomplished by God. No human resolution or desire can make such a sudden and dramatic life change. It is a spiritual event accomplished only by God's Spirit.

"He saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we had done, but according to his mercy, through the water of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit. This Spirit he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life." Titus 3:5-7

Jesus replied, "With all the earnestness I possess I tell you this: Unless you are born again, you can never get into the Kingdom of God. "Born again!" exclaimed Nicodemus. "What do you mean? How can an old man go back into his mother's womb and be born again?" Jesus replied, "What I am telling you so earnestly is this: Unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God. Men can only reproduce human life, but the Holy Spirit gives new life from heaven; so don't be surprised at my statement that you must be born again! Just as you can hear the wind but can't tell where it comes from or where it will go next, so it is with the Spirit. We do not know on whom he will next bestow this life from heaven." "What do you mean?" Nicodemus asked. Jesus replied, "You, a respected Jewish teacher, and yet you don't understand these things? I am telling you what I know and have seen--and yet you won't believe me. But if you don't even believe me when I tell you about such things as these that happen here among men, how can you possibly believe if I tell you what is going on in heaven? For only I, the Messiah, have come to earth and will return to heaven again. And as Moses in the wilderness lifted up the bronze image of a serpent on a pole, even so I must be lifted up upon a pole, so that anyone who believes in me will have eternal life." John 3:3-15
<b>
Conversion

The term "conversion" means "to turn around". In relationship to God's salvation it means to turn away from sin to serving God.

Jesus called a small child over to him and set the little fellow down among them, and said, "Unless you turn to God from your sins and become as little children, you will never get into the Kingdom of Heaven. Therefore anyone who humbles himself as this little child is the greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven. And any of you who welcomes a little child like this because you are mine is welcoming me and caring for me." Matthew 18:2-5
</b>
Reconciliation

The term "reconciliation" is another "legal" term similar to the term "justification". It means "to restore to friendship and fellowship after estrangement". God's salvation reconciles our relationship with God after we have been separated from Him because of our sin. God accepts us once again into His fellowship as friends.

"So now, since we have been made right in God's sight by faith in his promises, we can have real peace with him because of what Jesus Christ our Lord has done for us. For because of our faith, he has brought us into this place of highest privilege where we now stand, and we confidently and joyfully look forward to actually becoming all that God has had in mind for us to be. We can rejoice, too, when we run into problems and trials, for we know that they are good for us--they help us learn to be patient. And patience develops strength of character in us and helps us trust God more each time we use it until finally our hope and faith are strong and steady. Then, when that happens, we are able to hold our heads high no matter what happens and know that all is well, for we know how dearly God loves us, and we feel this warm love everywhere within us because God has given us the Holy Spirit to fill our hearts with his love. When we were utterly helpless, with no way of escape, Christ came at just the right time and died for us sinners who had no use for him. Even if we were good, we really wouldn't expect anyone to die for us, though, of course, that might be barely possible. But God showed his great love for us by sending Christ to die for us while we were still sinners. And since by his blood he did all this for us as sinners, how much more will he do for us now that he has declared us not guilty? Now he will save us from all of God's wrath to come. And since, when we were his enemies, we were brought back to God by the death of his Son, what blessings he must have for us now that we are his friends and he is living within us! Now we rejoice in our wonderful new relationship with God--all because of what our Lord Jesus Christ has done in dying for our sins--making us friends of God." Romans 5:1-11

Atonement

The term "atonement" comes from a Hebrew word that means "to cover or cancel"...i.e. the covering over of sin.

God's salvation not only includes the forgiveness of sins that we have committed, it also includes the reality that God forgets those past sins, never to remember them or bring them up to us ever again. Our past sins are totally forgotten in God's mind and court...they will never have to be dealt with ever again.

Salvation

Then the word "salvation" itself, which means "deliverance from sin" or "safety from sin". It is a term that encompasses all the terms we have previously reviewed.

God's salvation...

a. saves
b. redeems
c. justifies
d. regenerates
e. converts
f. reconciles
g. atones

What greater benefit and privilege is there than what God is offering to every human being who will humbly submit to His love and mercy.

"This Jesus is 'the stone that was rejected by you, the builders; it has become the cornerstone.' There is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among mortals by which we must be saved." Acts 4:11-12
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I'm sorry, but they still state you have to maintain being "good" in order to stay saved, I haven't seen anything otherwise, no matter how "sealed to gods love" you are, they still state be "good."

<a href='http://www.siscom.net/~direct/salvation/defined.htm' target='_blank'>Siscom.net (Unsure if minstry run or not)</a>

*Edit*

You will love this next site legion...
<a href='http://www.westarkchurchofchrist.org/gospel/page7.htm' target='_blank'>WestMark Church (slideshow.. so its crappy web presentation)</a>

Another amusing one.. especially the summary
<a href='http://www.scripturessay.com/study25.html' target='_blank'>Bible Study</a>

*edit2*
<i>I am going to make this easier to follow now... and everything I am quoting you are welcome to read the entire essay, but I shall pick out the points I wish to emphasis. So, you may want to read all of the excepts I am selecting, some you can skim of course as they repeat what is said before. </i>

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ScriptureEassy site @ as listed above.)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
What else is the will of the Father that we may please Him so that we can go to heaven? Jesus says in Luke 13:3, "I tell you, no; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish." It is either repent or perish; the choice is ours. But Satan does not want us to repent. Acts 17:30, "Truly these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent." All people everywhere, and that includes you and me, are commanded of God to repent. Repent of what? Repent of our sins. Repent of not fully serving and following all that God says.

God is pleading with us to repent. He greatly desires that we turn to him. He tells us in II Peter 3:9, "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance." God wants us to repent so we can be saved. He is patiently waiting on us. But eventually our time will run out. The longer we put off repentance, the harder our heart gets.

Repentance is not just being sorry. II Corinthians 7:10, "For Godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death." Repentance is a change of heart and a change of mind. We must make up our mind to stop living life our way and start living it Godís way. It is making up our mind that henceforth we are going to serve God with all our might and do everything He says. Matthew 22:37, "Jesus said to him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind." In other words, we must do it with all of our being.

Romans 2:4 says, "The goodness of God leads you to repentance." God has been so good to us, and this should cause us to want to please Him in every way. God, because of His love for us, has done so much for us, and because of this we read in I John 4:19, "We love Him, because He first loved us." This should cause us to want to repent and do all the things that He has asked us to do, otherwise we do not love God. Jesus said in John 14:24, "He who does not love Me, does not keep my words." Do you love God? If you do, you will want to do everything that He says. In John 14:15 Jesus says, "If you love Me keep My commandments." Are you willing to show your love to God by repenting?
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</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (same article)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
After Jesus had died for our sins, was resurrected and just before he ascended into heaven, he commanded his apostles in Mark 16:15-16, "And he said to them, Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned." Our Lord wanted the gospel preached to everyone. The word "gospel" literally means good news or good tidings.

We are given the answer of how to obey the gospel in Romans 6:3-5 which says, "Or do you not know, that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death: that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection." So here we see that we are baptized into His death, we are buried with Him through baptism, and then just as Christ was raised up from the dead, we also are raised to walk in newness of life after baptism. There must be a death, burial, and resurrection before this new life is possible. Only in baptism does our old sinful person die and our new person rises free from sin. We are transformed from death to life. We become a new creation.

To be a child of God, our faith must be a faith that will accept and do all that the Lord tells us to do. It must be an obedient faith, because God says in James 2:17,20 & 24, "Thus also faith, by itself, if it does not have works, is dead." "But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?" "You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only." If our faith is not one of action, it is a dead faith. A dead faith will do us no good on the day of judgment. This is the only place in the Bible that speaks of "faith only". Here it does not commend it, but rather condemns it. It also refers to one who believes in "faith only" as "O foolish man.

Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, and cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name? And then will I declare to them, I never knew you, depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness". If you believe and call Jesus, "Lord, Lord", you are still lost if you do not do what God says. If we ever hope to go to heaven, we must do the will of the Father. This is the only way. Not the will of men, but God's will. Not our own will, but God's will. Just because we call Jesus our Lord, this will not save us.

Jesus says in the above scripture, that on the day of judgment, that many will be pleading with him, calling him Lord, Lord, and reminding him of the many wonderful works that they had done, but he will say unto them, "I never knew you, depart from Me you who practice lawlessness". Why? Why? Because they had not done the will of the Father in heaven. Oh, they thought they had, but they hadnít. They had done their own will or the will of some other man. This will be the worst thing that will ever be said to an individual, when the Lord on judgment day says to the majority of people, "Depart, I never knew you". There will be no appeal to this decision. There will be no second chance. We have to get it right the first time.

These people in the above scripture seemed to be honest, but they were honestly mistaken. Apparently they were good people, because they had "done many wonderful works". But they had not done the will of the Father which is in heaven. Man generally wants to do things his way and doesn't really care what God thinks.

We learn from the above scripture, that we don't go to heaven by doing the will of men, or by doing what we think is right. The only way we can go to heaven is by doing the will of the Father, and that will is found right in our Bibles. Do we really know what the will of the Father is so that we can be sure of going to heaven? This is too important a matter to assume that we do or to take someone elseís word for it. Do we really know what the Bible says that God wants us to do to be saved?

What must I do to be saved? This is a very important question. Many people would answer this question in many different ways. The Bible is the only reliable place we can go for our answer, since it is our soul that will be lost if we follow man's advise. Our obedience to Christ is a very serious decision and must not be taken lightly. It must be on the Lord's terms as laid out in the scriptures and not on our terms.

We have already seen in Matthew 7:13-14, 21, only few will be saved, and many will be lost, and only those who do the will of the Father can go to heaven. We must do all of God's will, so that we can go to heaven. There is no other way. No single condition, that God imposes, can be ignored. God has no non-essential commands. What then is God's will, so that we can go to Heaven and not have to endure eternal punishment forever and ever? We will find the answer in the Bible in the following lessons.
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<i>I found out who wrote this article...
</i>
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Mt Vernon Church of Christ and Mike Scott, minister.
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Cxwf · June 2005

Care to point out what parts of that article actually support your view? Where, exactly, does it "still state you have to maintain being "good" in order to stay saved"?

Cyndane · June 2005

It is bolded, cxwf. :-)

Cxwf · June 2005

Jesus called a small child over to him and set the little fellow down among them, and said, "Unless you turn to God from your sins and become as little children, you will never get into the Kingdom of Heaven. Therefore anyone who humbles himself as this little child is the greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven. And any of you who welcomes a little child like this because you are mine is welcoming me and caring for me." Matthew 18:2-5

You mean this part?

Matthew 18:3
KJV: And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

NKJV: And said, "Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

Youngs: and said, `Verily I say to you, if ye may not be turned and become as the children, ye may not enter into the reign of the heavens;

So you must "be turned", which is a single action, a repentance that gives salvation now. It is not a continual upholding of particular standards, where failing in those standards gives up your salvation. It is a one time event.

Cyndane · June 2005

The reference to small children is the fact they obey their parents, or should.

God and jesus(sometimes the holy spirit is listed as well) are your parents in christianity.

*edit* I hate the KJV, it is almost as bad as the amplifed bible translation. So.. here is the NSAB verision instead, which is easier to read.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Bible NSAB)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
And He called a child to Himself and set him before them,

3and said, "Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and ©become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

4"Whoever then humbles himself as this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

5"And whoever receives one such child in My name receives Me;

6but (D)whoever (E)causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Heh, I like the threat of death of the last verse, that is funny.

Cxwf · June 2005

The reference to small children has nothing to do with obeying their parents. Where do you get that? It is most commonly interpreted as referring to a child's willingness to believe what he is told, even about things that he cannot see for himself.

Cyndane · June 2005

I'll try to phrase it better then for you cxwf.

In the ancient hebrew culture, children were expected to obey their parents(jesus/god) words (in addition to believing what they are told), if they did not they were strictly punished(No chance of salvation from god?), which is why it makes perfect sense for jesus to use a child as an anology for following gods word.

You kind of need to know about the culture at the time to understand the reference, and I do not fault you for not seeing it. Since it isn't really thought about that much today.

Cxwf · June 2005

Indeed, I am aware of that cultural feature. But what perhaps you had forgotten is that particular cultural feature was SO strong in their culture that it was more properly attributed to "offspring" then "children". The 4-year old child was completely subservient to his parents, but so was the 21-year old son, who really can't be called a child anymore.

Therefore, when Jesus refers to "children", one can assume he is referring to their age rather than the fact that they have parents.

Edit: Note also the repeated references to "little child" in the following verses.

Cyndane · June 2005

Which is exactly why his example of a little child fits perfectly with the culture time, after all you are supposed to obey god/jesus/holyspirit. No matter what your age, after all he does say "like children".

No mention of little before, it that is something the KJV put in there to confuse people cause they quite honestly suck at translating. Hence why that translation still uses "thou shalt not kill" instead of "thou shalt not murder".

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