<!--QuoteBegin-Cxwf+Jun 1 2005, 08:13 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cxwf @ Jun 1 2005, 08:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Note that you totally screwed up on Christianity's main point, so as to make it look more similar to the others.
Lets break these down into two categories.
Category A-- You can go to heaven if you have 2 things: 1. Belief 2. Follow Basic rules of being good
Christianity..er..I mean Category B-- You can go to heaven if you have 2 things: 1. Belief 2. Repentance
Following the rules of being good just isn't in there. Thats a side point that comes after belief. Once you believe, you should want to be good--but being good is NOT what gets you into heaven. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think you are splitting hairs here.
If you decide to repent and make no effort to stop killing people and generally being naughty, then how sincere were you really? Do you really think that the Christian god is going to be fooled in this regard?
You guys believe that we are full of sin and nothing will change that right ? Therefore true repentance by definition must be an ongoing process because invariably you will slip up at some future point and commit sin. And in order to avoid commiting sin (sincere repentance) you are then following the idea of doing no sin. And when you follow the idea of doing no sin you are in fact following the idea of "following basic rules of being good".
So ultimately, Christianity is <b> not only about the belief in Jesus but also _following_ him. </b>
I am no longer a Christian but I understand full well the expectations of my previous path.
The main difference between Christianity and most others is that Christianity preaches the idea of eternal damnation, which I personally feel to be flawed for obvious reasons.
I never claimed that Christianity does not <i>want</i> you to follow Jesus and "be good", simply that it is not the primary determiner of your salvation--which is unique among religions.
(Off topic, but why is eternal damnation "obviously flawed"?)
(@ Cyndane--I think we're getting back near the same point we reached in the homosexuality thread, where I have to just point out that what you consider "logic" makes absolutely no sense to me, suggesting that no further logical discussion is possible)
<!--QuoteBegin-Cxwf+Jun 3 2005, 12:13 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cxwf @ Jun 3 2005, 12:13 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I never claimed that Christianity does not <i>want</i> you to follow Jesus and "be good", simply that it is not the primary determiner of your salvation--which is unique among religions.
(Off topic, but why is eternal damnation "obviously flawed"?)
(@ Cyndane--I think we're getting back near the same point we reached in the homosexuality thread, where I have to just point out that what you consider "logic" makes absolutely no sense to me, suggesting that no further logical discussion is possible) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The thing is: Christianity _requires_ you to follow Jesus, which boils down to living a "good life", and hence is a key factor of determining salvation. There is no middle-ground here, you can't simply "want" you must "do", lest ye be spat out and all that for being "luke-warm".
As for eternal damnation being flawed consider this:
i) Not everyone got to "hear the good news" about Jesus before their death, so what happens to people in this instance? (not to mention all kinds of grey areas, like people being mentally incapable of understanding what Jesus and religion is all about).
ii) God is supposed to be a loving parent, so what is the benefit of continuous punishment without a chance to redeem oneself? Punishment without purpose is not loving at all.
iii) Buddhist monks are often quite ironically much more Christian-like than Christians, so why do they go to "hell"? See this link :
But the thing is, you are not saved because you do good...you do good because you are saved. It turns conventional causality on its head, yes, but thats intentional. That difference in causality is hugely important to us.
(Re Eternal Damnation, I remember seeing the answers to all those questions, but I'll have to go look them up again since I don't recall exactly what they were.)
You know, I'm quite pleased about this complete thread-derailment, as it means I haven't had to bring out my stick of beating creationists over the head +5.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The thing is: Christianity _requires_ you to follow Jesus, which boils down to living a "good life", and hence is a key factor of determining salvation. There is no middle-ground here, you can't simply "want" you must "do", lest ye be spat out and all that for being "luke-warm". <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My interpretation of the bible has, and always will be, that not only do you have to believe in Christ, you must at least make the attempt to do good works. There is little point in saying you believe in Christ, and then run around mudering, raping and generally being a total ****. It's not enough just to believe in Christ and then sin as much as you want, you must believe in Christ AND recognise what sins you commit and ask for Gods forgiveness. Otherwise what is the point, you get the perks (Going to heaven) for believing in Jesus, but if you just completely ignore the 'repentance' part by not changing how you behave (acting in the way that Jesus commands) you've not, in MY interpretation done the repentance part at all.
<!--QuoteBegin-Cxwf+Jun 2 2005, 11:13 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cxwf @ Jun 2 2005, 11:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> (@ Cyndane--I think we're getting back near the same point we reached in the homosexuality thread, where I have to just point out that what you consider "logic" makes absolutely no sense to me, suggesting that no further logical discussion is possible) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually cxwf, we are not. You are just being stubborn and ignorning exactly what your bible is telling you to do.
I don't see why you can't infer from all of the passages about salvation that show you must follow god's will in order to stay saved. I would include the holy codified acts, but a lot of them are not very moral.
Personally, I just think its your attempt at ignorning the fact all religions do require you to be good to stay saved, you can't just accept god/jesus/holyspirit and go around killing people, that wouldn't keep you saved even if you did believe in god.
Filthylarry has the right of it, as does Ageri, like usual. Which is what I have been saying for that past two pages.
<!--QuoteBegin-Cxwf+Jun 3 2005, 09:20 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cxwf @ Jun 3 2005, 09:20 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> But the thing is, you are not saved because you do good...you do good because you are saved. It turns conventional causality on its head, yes, but thats intentional. That difference in causality is hugely important to us.
(Re Eternal Damnation, I remember seeing the answers to all those questions, but I'll have to go look them up again since I don't recall exactly what they were.) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Someone I think has already posted similar scripture but the language in the KJV is just too delicious to resist:
(James 2 14-25)
<b> 14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. 25 </b>
Here's a revised standard version quote from Matthew 19:
<b> 16 And behold, one came up to him, saying, "Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?" 17 And he said to him, "Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments." 18 He said to him, "Which?" And Jesus said, "You shall not kill, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, 19 Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself." 20 The young man said to him, "All these I have observed; what do I still lack?" 21 Jesus said to him, "If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me." 22 When the young man heard this he went away sorrowful; for he had great possessions. 23 And Jesus said to his disciples, "Truly, I say to you, it will be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." </b>
I don't see how you can really argue against what those scriptures indicate namely you must _believe and act_ accordingly to the will of God/Jesus to be saved. IMO you can't separate the two requirements because ultimately they are the same thing in a broader sense of reality.
Belief in Jesus is just one step (albeit a vital one) on the path of Christianity. So I would say that you are saved because you _believe and do good by Christian standards_.
Besides if Aegeri, myself and Cyndane all agree on something I mean geez... it must be so <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Besides if Aegeri, myself and Cyndane all agree on something I mean geez... it must be so wink-fix.gif<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've been agreeing with people lots here lately, which leads me to suspect there is an apocalypse coming of some sort D:
Egads, Filthylarry.. now I remember why I hate the KJV so much.
That is so horribly translated it isn't even funny...
Let me clean it up, like it should be. <!--QuoteBegin-James 2 14-25+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (James 2 14-25)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 14What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? 15If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,
16and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?
17Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.
18But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works."
19You believe that God is one You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.
20But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
21Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
22You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;
23and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God.
24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?
26For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think that speaks for itself quite well. <!--QuoteBegin-Matthew 9 16-26+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Matthew 9 16-26)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
16And someone came to Him and said, "Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?" 17And He said to him, "Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments."
18Then he said to Him, "Which ones?" And Jesus said, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER; YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY; YOU SHALL NOT STEAL; YOU SHALL NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS;
19HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER; and YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."
20The young man said to Him, "All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking?"
21Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."
22But when the young man heard this statement, he went away grieving; for he was one who owned much property.
23And Jesus said to His disciples, "Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.
24"Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
25When the disciples heard this, they were very astonished and said, "Then who can be saved?"
26And looking at them Jesus said to them, "With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Quite self-explanitory as well.
@Filthylarry: Can you not use the KJV anymore please? It hurts my head to look at it. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Aegeri+Jun 3 2005, 02:05 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Aegeri @ Jun 3 2005, 02:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Besides if Aegeri, myself and Cyndane all agree on something I mean geez... it must be so wink-fix.gif<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've been agreeing with people lots here lately, which leads me to suspect there is an apocalypse coming of some sort D:<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, unfortunately for me, all my agreements with Aegeri always end up like this:
<!--QuoteBegin-pieceofnub+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (pieceofnub)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->1 + 2 = 3, I think we can agree on this<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin-Aeginub+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Aeginub)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No you fool, 2 + 1 = 3! Get your head on straight!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Cyndane+Jun 3 2005, 10:30 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cyndane @ Jun 3 2005, 10:30 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Cxwf+Jun 2 2005, 11:13 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cxwf @ Jun 2 2005, 11:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> (@ Cyndane--I think we're getting back near the same point we reached in the homosexuality thread, where I have to just point out that what you consider "logic" makes absolutely no sense to me, suggesting that no further logical discussion is possible) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually cxwf, we are not. You are just being stubborn and ignorning exactly what your bible is telling you to do. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Not at all--I am not ignoring what the Bible tells me to do. Its just that when you tell me that you know better than me what its telling me, and then post your proof, I honestly have NO CLUE how you got that conclusion out of that piece of scripture half the time. It's like we're thinking in different languages (which we probably are, come to think of it). I can't even begin to refute those points because I don't see any points in those posts to refute. They look for all the world like they are saying exactly what I am saying, and yet you hold them up as proof that I am completely wrong.
(note--this doesn't apply to ALL posts of yours--for example the one right above this deserves a separate answer).
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't see why you can't infer from all of the passages about salvation that show you must follow god's will in order to stay saved. I would include the holy codified acts, but a lot of them are not very moral.
Personally, I just think its your attempt at ignorning the fact all religions do require you to be good to stay saved, you can't just accept god/jesus/holyspirit and go around killing people, that wouldn't keep you saved even if you did believe in god.
Filthylarry has the right of it, as does Ageri, like usual. Which is what I have been saying for that past two pages.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You've got the causality wrong. There is a huge difference between "go and do good and you will be saved", and "you are saved, so go and do good". How can <i>you</i> not see <i>that</i>?
We probably are thinking in different languages, but that doesn't mean they can't be understood by each other.. just takes a little more thought to figure out what each other mean, my horrible analogy with the kettle as an example. It sounded right to me, but then it was worded slightly different for you. :-)
<!--QuoteBegin-cxwf+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (cxwf)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You've got the causality wrong. There is a huge difference between "go and do good and you will be saved", and "you are saved, so go and do good". How can you not see that? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh I can see that just fine, and yes that works the same way for all religions as well.
You are saved(acknowledge god/jesus/krishna/mother earth/buddah), therefore to stay saved you must do good.
Legion and yourself are saying "You are saved. Do what you wish now"
That is not the case as the bible has pointed out to you a few times.
This passage points out how works must follow faith. Again, causality is critical--first you have faith and are saved, and then you go and do good works. Note also that the passage points out this fact:
2: 10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all. (examples before and after)
Now as all of us are going to fail in some point or other, that means we will all be judged as if guilty of all. So clearly being good 99% of the time isn't going to save you...if you can't be good 100% of the time, you need another source of salvation. And that source (Jesus' sacrifice) works just as well for the thief who accepted Jesus while dying on the cross as it does for Mother Teresa.
Note again, I am not claiming that we shouldn't go and do good works...simply that the quantity of good works we have amassed in our lifetime isn't going to determine our salvation.
Mathew 19: 16-26
Vs 25-26 are really the key to this whole passage. 25When the disciples heard this, they were very astonished and said, "Then who can be saved?"
26And looking at them Jesus said to them, "With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
<!--QuoteBegin-Cyndane+Jun 3 2005, 03:10 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cyndane @ Jun 3 2005, 03:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Oh I can see that just fine, and yes that works the same way for all religions as well.
You are saved(acknowledge god/jesus/krishna/mother earth/buddah), therefore to stay saved you must do good.
Legion and yourself are saying "You are saved. Do what you wish now"
That is not the case as the bible has pointed out to you a few times. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Repeating myself, and quoting myself, since you didn't understand the first time.
You MUST do good works, else you are no longer saved. Then you go to reptentance, (Leviticus).
<!--QuoteBegin-Leviticus 23(NSAB)+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Leviticus 23(NSAB))</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 27"On exactly the tenth day of this seventh month is the day of atonement; it shall be a holy convocation for you, and you shall humble your souls and present an offering by fire to the LORD.
28"You shall not do any work on this same day, for it is a day of atonement, to make atonement on your behalf before the LORD your God.
29"If there is any person who will not humble himself on this same day, he shall be cut off from his people.
30"As for any person who does any work on this same day, that person I will destroy from among his people.
31"You shall do no work at all. It is to be a perpetual statute throughout your generations in all your dwelling places.
32"It is to be a sabbath of complete rest to you, and you shall humble your souls; on the ninth of the month at evening, from evening until evening you shall keep your sabbath."
33Again the LORD spoke to Moses, saying,
34"Speak to the sons of Israel, saying, 'On the fifteenth of this seventh month is the Feast of Booths for seven days to the LORD.
35'On the first day is a holy convocation; you shall do no laborious work of any kind.
36'For seven days you shall present an offering by fire to the LORD On the eighth day you shall have a holy convocation and present an offering by fire to the LORD; it is an assembly. You shall do no laborious work.
37'These are the appointed times of the LORD which you shall proclaim as holy convocations, to present offerings by fire to the LORD--burnt offerings and grain offerings, sacrifices and drink offerings, each day's matter on its own day--
38besides those of the sabbaths of the LORD, and besides your gifts and besides all your votive and freewill offerings, which you give to the LORD.
39'On exactly the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when you have gathered in the crops of the land, you shall celebrate the feast of the LORD for seven days, with a rest on the first day and a rest on the eighth day.
40'Now on the first day you shall take for yourselves the foliage of beautiful trees, palm branches and boughs of leafy trees and willows of the brook, and you shall rejoice before the LORD your God for seven days.
41'You shall thus celebrate it as a feast to the LORD for seven days in the year. It shall be a perpetual statute throughout your generations; you shall celebrate it in the seventh month.
42'You shall live in booths for seven days; all the native-born in Israel shall live in booths,
43so that your generations may know that I had the sons of Israel live in booths when I brought them out from the land of Egypt. I am the LORD your God.'" <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Then again, you must continue to good works else you are not saved.
I thought the approach was that if you we're saved then you would produce "fruit" (good works). And that it was inherently impossible to be truly saved and not do good works because if you never do good works then you were never really saved... ? I think this was the reasoning behind the reconciliation that once you were saved, you were saved forever, and the idea that good works was needed, but not really by fiat because it was supposed to naturally occur out of a person who truly believed.
Anyone familiar with this idea? This was one that I heard alot concerning salvation and good works.
<!--QuoteBegin-Sirus+Jun 8 2005, 10:52 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sirus @ Jun 8 2005, 10:52 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I thought the approach was that if you we're saved then you would produce "fruit" (good works). And that it was inherently impossible to be truly saved and not do good works because if you never do good works then you were never really saved... ? I think this was the reasoning behind the reconciliation that once you were saved, you were saved forever, and the idea that good works was needed, but not really by fiat because it was supposed to naturally occur out of a person who truly believed.
Anyone familiar with this idea? This was one that I heard alot concerning salvation and good works. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Aye, that's a way of thinking about it.
You do, of course, run into problems when you come across someone who accepted Christ, did good works for a good long while, and then decided not to follow God anymore. By the above argument, that person never really, truly accepted Christ. Tell them that while they're still following God and showing their faith through works, and it doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
If you're comfortable saying that everyone who falters lied to themselves, then go ahead. However, a much more sound explanation would be that people have the free will to choose to follow God or not. Deciding not to follow God is a sin. Yet, when you accept Christ, you accept His work on the cross as payment for your sins, past present and future; thus, the decision you make to not follow God anymore is covered by God's grace.
<!--QuoteBegin-Sirus+Jun 8 2005, 09:52 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sirus @ Jun 8 2005, 09:52 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I thought the approach was that if you we're saved then you would produce "fruit" (good works). And that it was inherently impossible to be truly saved and not do good works because if you never do good works then you were never really saved... ? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That would work, except it would contradict everything cxwf, and legion have said thus far. Their logic is as follows: 1. Believe in god, you are saved. 2. Consequently you do good works, but can never be "not saved."<i> <--illogical due to human's nature to be "sinful."</i>
Here is how it really works:(According to current christians) 1. Believe in god be saved. 2. Do good works, and stay saved. 3. Sin, and you are not saved (hence the forgiving that god gives). 4. Repent and you are saved again.
Here is what the bible says: 1. You must feel remorse for past sins. 2. You must accept god/jesus/holyspirit into you. 3. Try to correct the sins you have done in the past (See penance in Leviticus) 4. Now do good works to stay saved. 5. If fail, then repent, confession with a priest, start over with number 1.
<!--QuoteBegin-sirus+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (sirus)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I think this was the reasoning behind the reconciliation that once you were saved, you were saved forever, and the idea that good works was needed, but not really by fiat because it was supposed to naturally occur out of a person who truly believed. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Then why even be saved in the first part? There is no reason for it, if you can still be "bad" and "sinful" and stay saved why would they mention "good works"?
It is a contradiction by todays standards, even back when this was just being accepted the orginators were quite "bad" even so far as to kill people who didn't believe in god, but then that is what the bible tells them to do.
This is just another example of how christianity is not unique in any way.
All of the other religions agree that to be saved, you must practice your good works(according to said holy book you are following), else you lose said "saved" status. Which make sense.
<!--QuoteBegin-Cyndane+Jun 8 2005, 11:15 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cyndane @ Jun 8 2005, 11:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> All of the other religions agree that to be saved, you must practice your good works(according to said holy book you are following), else you lose said "saved" status. Which make sense. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> And why do we care what the <i>other</i> religions agree on? It's not really relevant to our theology. That said, Legionairred seems to be better than me at explaning to you the points you consistently miss, so I'll leave that to him.
Alright let me re-hash your arguement for you then. Since you seem to have issues keeping up.
<!--QuoteBegin-cxwf+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (cxwf)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> God wants Man to live and be with him. But Man is sinful, and cannot reach God, ever, no matter what he does! Man must pay the price for sin, which is death.
BUT!! God loves Man, so he pays the price instead. Now, Man can reach God, not by doing anything exceptionally good himself, but because God has already done the good thing. Salvation is now free.
NO OTHER RELIGION IS EVEN CLOSE TO THAT!!! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-cxwf+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (cxwf)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Ok, granted most probably do. But that wasn't the point. I'm not claiming that repentance is unique to Christianity. I'm claiming that Christianity is unique by NOT including the "be good" command as one of its prerequisites for salvation <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-cxwf+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (cxwf)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> In understand it must seem very strange not to have that extra "be good" in there...after all, EVERY OTHER religion has it. But that just goes to prove that Christianity is not, in fact, derived from those other religions. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Summary: Christianity is unique because god wants to be close to man.
Rebuttals: Christianity is not unique in wanting god to be close to man: 1. Buddism (englightenment) 2. Islam (God once more) 3. Jainism (Enlightenment) 4. Hindu (With Krishna (god)) 5. Lakota (with mother goddess (earth/god))
Christianity is like very other religion out there with just different names/places.
<!--QuoteBegin-Legionnaired+Jun 8 2005, 11:11 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Legionnaired @ Jun 8 2005, 11:11 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If you're comfortable saying that everyone who falters lied to themselves, then go ahead. However, a much more sound explanation would be that people have the free will to choose to follow God or not. Deciding not to follow God is a sin. Yet, when you accept Christ, you accept His work on the cross as payment for your sins, past present and <b>future</b>; thus, the decision you make to not follow God anymore is covered by God's grace. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm genuinely curious here.
Where does the idea of forgiveness of _future_ sins come from? I don't remember anything like that in my days of being a Christian.
My understanding is essentially that Jesus was "sacrificed" and eliminated the need for previous forms of repentance such as animal sacrifice. Note that this does not mean that no repentance should take place however.
<!--QuoteBegin-Cxwf+Jun 3 2005, 04:24 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cxwf @ Jun 3 2005, 04:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Note again, I am not claiming that we shouldn't go and do good works...simply that the quantity of good works we have amassed in our lifetime isn't going to determine our salvation.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes but then why does Jesus reply with:
"Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments." ?
He does not just say "believe, and you will enter" or something similar. There is an implicit _requirement_ to live your life a certain way. (according to God's law)
Now granted this does not mean that you have to perform x number of good acts / year. However it shows that a fundamental lifestyle change is wanted, and this is exactly what the other religions demand as well.
In my previous quotes there is also the idea that "devils believe in Jesus also". In other words _belief_ alone doesnt get you anywhere. Otherwise all those devils would be given angel status no?
@Cyndane: I shall thusly bring forth effort to resist quoting from KJV, but maketh no pledge <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Comments
Lets break these down into two categories.
Category A--
You can go to heaven if you have 2 things:
1. Belief
2. Follow Basic rules of being good
Christianity..er..I mean Category B--
You can go to heaven if you have 2 things:
1. Belief
2. Repentance
Following the rules of being good just isn't in there. Thats a side point that comes after belief. Once you believe, you should want to be good--but being good is NOT what gets you into heaven. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think you are splitting hairs here.
If you decide to repent and make no effort to stop killing people and generally being naughty, then how sincere were you really? Do you really think that the Christian god is going to be fooled in this regard?
You guys believe that we are full of sin and nothing will change that right ? Therefore true repentance by definition must be an ongoing process because invariably you will slip up at some future point and commit sin. And in order to avoid commiting sin (sincere repentance) you are then following the idea of doing no sin. And when you follow the idea of doing no sin you are in fact following the idea of "following basic rules of being good".
So ultimately, Christianity is <b> not only about the belief in Jesus but also _following_ him. </b>
I am no longer a Christian but I understand full well the expectations of my previous path.
The main difference between Christianity and most others is that Christianity preaches the idea of eternal damnation, which I personally feel to be flawed for obvious reasons.
(Off topic, but why is eternal damnation "obviously flawed"?)
(@ Cyndane--I think we're getting back near the same point we reached in the homosexuality thread, where I have to just point out that what you consider "logic" makes absolutely no sense to me, suggesting that no further logical discussion is possible)
(Off topic, but why is eternal damnation "obviously flawed"?)
(@ Cyndane--I think we're getting back near the same point we reached in the homosexuality thread, where I have to just point out that what you consider "logic" makes absolutely no sense to me, suggesting that no further logical discussion is possible) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The thing is: Christianity _requires_ you to follow Jesus, which boils down to living a "good life", and hence is a key factor of determining salvation. There is no middle-ground here, you can't simply "want" you must "do", lest ye be spat out and all that for being "luke-warm".
As for eternal damnation being flawed consider this:
i) Not everyone got to "hear the good news" about Jesus before their death, so what happens to people in this instance? (not to mention all kinds of grey areas, like people being mentally incapable of understanding what Jesus and religion is all about).
ii) God is supposed to be a loving parent, so what is the benefit of continuous punishment without a chance to redeem oneself? Punishment without purpose is not loving at all.
iii) Buddhist monks are often quite ironically much more Christian-like than Christians, so why do they go to "hell"? See this link :
<a href='http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma8/monksmed.html' target='_blank'>link</a>
(Re Eternal Damnation, I remember seeing the answers to all those questions, but I'll have to go look them up again since I don't recall exactly what they were.)
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The thing is: Christianity _requires_ you to follow Jesus, which boils down to living a "good life", and hence is a key factor of determining salvation. There is no middle-ground here, you can't simply "want" you must "do", lest ye be spat out and all that for being "luke-warm".
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My interpretation of the bible has, and always will be, that not only do you have to believe in Christ, you must at least make the attempt to do good works. There is little point in saying you believe in Christ, and then run around mudering, raping and generally being a total ****. It's not enough just to believe in Christ and then sin as much as you want, you must believe in Christ AND recognise what sins you commit and ask for Gods forgiveness. Otherwise what is the point, you get the perks (Going to heaven) for believing in Jesus, but if you just completely ignore the 'repentance' part by not changing how you behave (acting in the way that Jesus commands) you've not, in MY interpretation done the repentance part at all.
Actually cxwf, we are not. You are just being stubborn and ignorning exactly what your bible is telling you to do.
I don't see why you can't infer from all of the passages about salvation that show you must follow god's will in order to stay saved. I would include the holy codified acts, but a lot of them are not very moral.
Personally, I just think its your attempt at ignorning the fact all religions do require you to be good to stay saved, you can't just accept god/jesus/holyspirit and go around killing people, that wouldn't keep you saved even if you did believe in god.
Filthylarry has the right of it, as does Ageri, like usual. Which is what I have been saying for that past two pages.
(Re Eternal Damnation, I remember seeing the answers to all those questions, but I'll have to go look them up again since I don't recall exactly what they were.) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Someone I think has already posted similar scripture but the language in the KJV is just too delicious to resist:
(James 2 14-25)
<b>
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. 25
</b>
Here's a revised standard version quote from Matthew 19:
<b>
16 And behold, one came up to him, saying, "Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?" 17 And he said to him, "Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments." 18 He said to him, "Which?" And Jesus said, "You shall not kill, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, 19 Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself." 20 The young man said to him, "All these I have observed; what do I still lack?" 21 Jesus said to him, "If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me." 22 When the young man heard this he went away sorrowful; for he had great possessions. 23 And Jesus said to his disciples, "Truly, I say to you, it will be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
</b>
I don't see how you can really argue against what those scriptures indicate namely you must _believe and act_ accordingly to the will of God/Jesus to be saved. IMO you can't separate the two requirements because ultimately they are the same thing in a broader sense of reality.
Belief in Jesus is just one step (albeit a vital one) on the path of Christianity. So I would say that you are saved because you _believe and do good by Christian standards_.
Besides if Aegeri, myself and Cyndane all agree on something I mean geez... it must be so <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Besides if Aegeri, myself and Cyndane all agree on something I mean geez... it must be so wink-fix.gif<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've been agreeing with people lots here lately, which leads me to suspect there is an apocalypse coming of some sort D:
That is so horribly translated it isn't even funny...
Let me clean it up, like it should be.
<!--QuoteBegin-James 2 14-25+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (James 2 14-25)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
14What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
15If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,
16and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?
17Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.
18But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works."
19You believe that God is one You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.
20But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
21Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
22You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;
23and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God.
24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?
26For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think that speaks for itself quite well.
<!--QuoteBegin-Matthew 9 16-26+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Matthew 9 16-26)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
16And someone came to Him and said, "Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?"
17And He said to him, "Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments."
18Then he said to Him, "Which ones?" And Jesus said, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER; YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY; YOU SHALL NOT STEAL; YOU SHALL NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS;
19HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER; and YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."
20The young man said to Him, "All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking?"
21Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."
22But when the young man heard this statement, he went away grieving; for he was one who owned much property.
23And Jesus said to His disciples, "Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.
24"Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
25When the disciples heard this, they were very astonished and said, "Then who can be saved?"
26And looking at them Jesus said to them, "With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Quite self-explanitory as well.
@Filthylarry: Can you not use the KJV anymore please? It hurts my head to look at it. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Besides if Aegeri, myself and Cyndane all agree on something I mean geez... it must be so wink-fix.gif<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've been agreeing with people lots here lately, which leads me to suspect there is an apocalypse coming of some sort D:<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, unfortunately for me, all my agreements with Aegeri always end up like this:
<!--QuoteBegin-pieceofnub+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (pieceofnub)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->1 + 2 = 3, I think we can agree on this<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Aeginub+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Aeginub)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No you fool, 2 + 1 = 3! Get your head on straight!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually cxwf, we are not. You are just being stubborn and ignorning exactly what your bible is telling you to do. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not at all--I am not ignoring what the Bible tells me to do. Its just that when you tell me that you know better than me what its telling me, and then post your proof, I honestly have NO CLUE how you got that conclusion out of that piece of scripture half the time. It's like we're thinking in different languages (which we probably are, come to think of it). I can't even begin to refute those points because I don't see any points in those posts to refute. They look for all the world like they are saying exactly what I am saying, and yet you hold them up as proof that I am completely wrong.
(note--this doesn't apply to ALL posts of yours--for example the one right above this deserves a separate answer).
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't see why you can't infer from all of the passages about salvation that show you must follow god's will in order to stay saved. I would include the holy codified acts, but a lot of them are not very moral.
Personally, I just think its your attempt at ignorning the fact all religions do require you to be good to stay saved, you can't just accept god/jesus/holyspirit and go around killing people, that wouldn't keep you saved even if you did believe in god.
Filthylarry has the right of it, as does Ageri, like usual. Which is what I have been saying for that past two pages.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You've got the causality wrong. There is a huge difference between "go and do good and you will be saved", and "you are saved, so go and do good". How can <i>you</i> not see <i>that</i>?
<!--QuoteBegin-cxwf+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (cxwf)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
You've got the causality wrong. There is a huge difference between "go and do good and you will be saved", and "you are saved, so go and do good". How can you not see that?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh I can see that just fine, and yes that works the same way for all religions as well.
You are saved(acknowledge god/jesus/krishna/mother earth/buddah), therefore to stay saved you must do good.
Legion and yourself are saying "You are saved. Do what you wish now"
That is not the case as the bible has pointed out to you a few times.
This passage points out how works must follow faith. Again, causality is critical--first you have faith and are saved, and then you go and do good works. Note also that the passage points out this fact:
2: 10
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all.
(examples before and after)
Now as all of us are going to fail in some point or other, that means we will all be judged as if guilty of all. So clearly being good 99% of the time isn't going to save you...if you can't be good 100% of the time, you need another source of salvation. And that source (Jesus' sacrifice) works just as well for the thief who accepted Jesus while dying on the cross as it does for Mother Teresa.
Note again, I am not claiming that we shouldn't go and do good works...simply that the quantity of good works we have amassed in our lifetime isn't going to determine our salvation.
Mathew 19: 16-26
Vs 25-26 are really the key to this whole passage.
25When the disciples heard this, they were very astonished and said, "Then who can be saved?"
26And looking at them Jesus said to them, "With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
<i>Now</i> its self explanatory.
You are saved(acknowledge god/jesus/krishna/mother earth/buddah), therefore to stay saved you must do good.
Legion and yourself are saying "You are saved. Do what you wish now"
That is not the case as the bible has pointed out to you a few times. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Repeating myself, and quoting myself, since you didn't understand the first time.
You MUST do good works, else you are no longer saved. Then you go to reptentance, (Leviticus).
<!--QuoteBegin-Leviticus 23(NSAB)+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Leviticus 23(NSAB))</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
The LORD spoke to Moses, saying,
27"On exactly the tenth day of this seventh month is the day of atonement; it shall be a holy convocation for you, and you shall humble your souls and present an offering by fire to the LORD.
28"You shall not do any work on this same day, for it is a day of atonement, to make atonement on your behalf before the LORD your God.
29"If there is any person who will not humble himself on this same day, he shall be cut off from his people.
30"As for any person who does any work on this same day, that person I will destroy from among his people.
31"You shall do no work at all. It is to be a perpetual statute throughout your generations in all your dwelling places.
32"It is to be a sabbath of complete rest to you, and you shall humble your souls; on the ninth of the month at evening, from evening until evening you shall keep your sabbath."
33Again the LORD spoke to Moses, saying,
34"Speak to the sons of Israel, saying, 'On the fifteenth of this seventh month is the Feast of Booths for seven days to the LORD.
35'On the first day is a holy convocation; you shall do no laborious work of any kind.
36'For seven days you shall present an offering by fire to the LORD On the eighth day you shall have a holy convocation and present an offering by fire to the LORD; it is an assembly. You shall do no laborious work.
37'These are the appointed times of the LORD which you shall proclaim as holy convocations, to present offerings by fire to the LORD--burnt offerings and grain offerings, sacrifices and drink offerings, each day's matter on its own day--
38besides those of the sabbaths of the LORD, and besides your gifts and besides all your votive and freewill offerings, which you give to the LORD.
39'On exactly the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when you have gathered in the crops of the land, you shall celebrate the feast of the LORD for seven days, with a rest on the first day and a rest on the eighth day.
40'Now on the first day you shall take for yourselves the foliage of beautiful trees, palm branches and boughs of leafy trees and willows of the brook, and you shall rejoice before the LORD your God for seven days.
41'You shall thus celebrate it as a feast to the LORD for seven days in the year. It shall be a perpetual statute throughout your generations; you shall celebrate it in the seventh month.
42'You shall live in booths for seven days; all the native-born in Israel shall live in booths,
43so that your generations may know that I had the sons of Israel live in booths when I brought them out from the land of Egypt. I am the LORD your God.'"
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then again, you must continue to good works else you are not saved.
Anyone familiar with this idea? This was one that I heard alot concerning salvation and good works.
Anyone familiar with this idea? This was one that I heard alot concerning salvation and good works. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Aye, that's a way of thinking about it.
You do, of course, run into problems when you come across someone who accepted Christ, did good works for a good long while, and then decided not to follow God anymore. By the above argument, that person never really, truly accepted Christ. Tell them that while they're still following God and showing their faith through works, and it doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
If you're comfortable saying that everyone who falters lied to themselves, then go ahead. However, a much more sound explanation would be that people have the free will to choose to follow God or not. Deciding not to follow God is a sin. Yet, when you accept Christ, you accept His work on the cross as payment for your sins, past present and future; thus, the decision you make to not follow God anymore is covered by God's grace.
That would work, except it would contradict everything cxwf, and legion have said thus far. Their logic is as follows:
1. Believe in god, you are saved.
2. Consequently you do good works, but can never be "not saved."<i> <--illogical due to human's nature to be "sinful."</i>
Here is how it really works:(According to current christians)
1. Believe in god be saved.
2. Do good works, and stay saved.
3. Sin, and you are not saved (hence the forgiving that god gives).
4. Repent and you are saved again.
Here is what the bible says:
1. You must feel remorse for past sins.
2. You must accept god/jesus/holyspirit into you.
3. Try to correct the sins you have done in the past (See penance in Leviticus)
4. Now do good works to stay saved.
5. If fail, then repent, confession with a priest, start over with number 1.
<!--QuoteBegin-sirus+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (sirus)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
I think this was the reasoning behind the reconciliation that once you were saved, you were saved forever, and the idea that good works was needed, but not really by fiat because it was supposed to naturally occur out of a person who truly believed.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then why even be saved in the first part? There is no reason for it, if you can still be "bad" and "sinful" and stay saved why would they mention "good works"?
It is a contradiction by todays standards, even back when this was just being accepted the orginators were quite "bad" even so far as to kill people who didn't believe in god, but then that is what the bible tells them to do.
This is just another example of how christianity is not unique in any way.
All of the other religions agree that to be saved, you must practice your good works(according to said holy book you are following), else you lose said "saved" status. Which make sense.
And why do we care what the <i>other</i> religions agree on? It's not really relevant to our theology. That said, Legionairred seems to be better than me at explaning to you the points you consistently miss, so I'll leave that to him.
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God wants Man to live and be with him. But Man is sinful, and cannot reach God, ever, no matter what he does! Man must pay the price for sin, which is death.
BUT!! God loves Man, so he pays the price instead. Now, Man can reach God, not by doing anything exceptionally good himself, but because God has already done the good thing. Salvation is now free.
NO OTHER RELIGION IS EVEN CLOSE TO THAT!!!
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Ok, granted most probably do. But that wasn't the point. I'm not claiming that repentance is unique to Christianity. I'm claiming that Christianity is unique by NOT including the "be good" command as one of its prerequisites for salvation
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In understand it must seem very strange not to have that extra "be good" in there...after all, EVERY OTHER religion has it. But that just goes to prove that Christianity is not, in fact, derived from those other religions.
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Summary:
Christianity is unique because god wants to be close to man.
Rebuttals:
Christianity is not unique in wanting god to be close to man:
1. Buddism (englightenment)
2. Islam (God once more)
3. Jainism (Enlightenment)
4. Hindu (With Krishna (god))
5. Lakota (with mother goddess (earth/god))
Christianity is like very other religion out there with just different names/places.
I'm genuinely curious here.
Where does the idea of forgiveness of _future_ sins come from? I don't remember anything like that in my days of being a Christian.
My understanding is essentially that Jesus was "sacrificed" and eliminated the need for previous forms of repentance such as animal sacrifice. Note that this does not mean that no repentance should take place however.
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Yes but then why does Jesus reply with:
"Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments." ?
He does not just say "believe, and you will enter" or something similar. There is an implicit _requirement_ to live your life a certain way. (according to God's law)
Now granted this does not mean that you have to perform x number of good acts / year. However it shows that a fundamental lifestyle change is wanted, and this is exactly what the other religions demand as well.
In my previous quotes there is also the idea that "devils believe in Jesus also". In other words _belief_ alone doesnt get you anywhere. Otherwise all those devils would be given angel status no?
@Cyndane: I shall thusly bring forth effort to resist quoting from KJV, but maketh no pledge <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->