<!--QuoteBegin-BulletHead+Jun 18 2005, 09:59 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BulletHead @ Jun 18 2005, 09:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-BadKarma+Jun 18 2005, 07:24 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BadKarma @ Jun 18 2005, 07:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> A half inch wide piece of lead coming out of a little pistol cartridge is not going to punch bowling ball or baseball or tennis ball sized holes in folks. Movies and games are putting far too much stock in the power of the big .50 pistols. Even the biggest pistol round dosnt have much on the smallet rifle round. Get out of the Dirty Harry mindset. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The exit wound man!
You have soft tissue being torn by
bullet Bit of bone chunks of flesh strips of bacon/muscle and other sinew
plus clothing and possible armor <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> IF you are using a hollowpoint, then the bullet may be... maybe twice the diameter on exit. If that.
It's not gonna leave a hole on exit much bigger than that. IF it even makes an exit wound. Large bullets (like the 45ACP) are slower moving and have less penetration power. This is good, as all of the energy of the shot is transfered to the target.
BadKarmaThe Advanced Literature monsters burned my house and gave me a 7Join Date: 2002-11-12Member: 8260Members
<!--QuoteBegin-BulletHead+Jun 18 2005, 10:11 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BulletHead @ Jun 18 2005, 10:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I said I was exagerating a lttle, but it's a pretty good comparison
After all, a 1911 Colt 45 Auto WILL put you down so long as it hits your upper body. I don't care where. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Not true dude. A pistol is just not a really truely effective combat weapon. If people have taken multiple 5.56x45mm rounds to the torso and still have had the gumption to run away, no pistol will automatically make you sit down.
<!--QuoteBegin-BadKarma+Jun 18 2005, 10:19 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BadKarma @ Jun 18 2005, 10:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-BulletHead+Jun 18 2005, 10:11 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BulletHead @ Jun 18 2005, 10:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I said I was exagerating a lttle, but it's a pretty good comparison
After all, a 1911 Colt 45 Auto WILL put you down so long as it hits your upper body. I don't care where. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not true dude. A pistol is just not a really truely effective combat weapon. If people have taken multiple 5.56x45mm rounds to the torso and still have had the gumption to run away, no pistol will automatically make you sit down. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> problem is, and even the US Army has noticed this, that the 5.56x45mm round is a clean and cut wound. Straight in. No shatter. It almost sounds like an AP round being used on an unarmored target IMHO
<!--QuoteBegin-BulletHead+Jun 18 2005, 10:49 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BulletHead @ Jun 18 2005, 10:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-BadKarma+Jun 18 2005, 10:19 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BadKarma @ Jun 18 2005, 10:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-BulletHead+Jun 18 2005, 10:11 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BulletHead @ Jun 18 2005, 10:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I said I was exagerating a lttle, but it's a pretty good comparison
After all, a 1911 Colt 45 Auto WILL put you down so long as it hits your upper body. I don't care where. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not true dude. A pistol is just not a really truely effective combat weapon. If people have taken multiple 5.56x45mm rounds to the torso and still have had the gumption to run away, no pistol will automatically make you sit down. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> problem is, and even the US Army has noticed this, that the 5.56x45mm round is a clean and cut wound. Straight in. No shatter. It almost sounds like an AP round being used on an unarmored target IMHO <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> It's a fast moving, small round in a FMJ. Of course it'll be fairly clean.
CplDavisI hunt the arctic SnonosJoin Date: 2003-01-09Member: 12097Members
<!--QuoteBegin-NumbersNotFound+Jun 18 2005, 10:52 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (NumbersNotFound @ Jun 18 2005, 10:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-BulletHead+Jun 18 2005, 10:49 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BulletHead @ Jun 18 2005, 10:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-BadKarma+Jun 18 2005, 10:19 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BadKarma @ Jun 18 2005, 10:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-BulletHead+Jun 18 2005, 10:11 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BulletHead @ Jun 18 2005, 10:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I said I was exagerating a lttle, but it's a pretty good comparison
After all, a 1911 Colt 45 Auto WILL put you down so long as it hits your upper body. I don't care where. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not true dude. A pistol is just not a really truely effective combat weapon. If people have taken multiple 5.56x45mm rounds to the torso and still have had the gumption to run away, no pistol will automatically make you sit down. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> problem is, and even the US Army has noticed this, that the 5.56x45mm round is a clean and cut wound. Straight in. No shatter. It almost sounds like an AP round being used on an unarmored target IMHO <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's a fast moving, small round in a FMJ. Of course it'll be fairly clean. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> perfect example of how things dont always work out.
A State trooper in the late 90s was killed when a seemingly friendly cooperative man decided to suddenly pull out a gun during a speeding traffic stop.
He shot the trooper 1 time with a .22. It went though the state troopers arm and entered his chest from the side missing his ballistic vest.
The tiny little .22 lodged into an artery near his heart and he bled to death internaly and died at the scene a few minuets later.
But before he did he shot his killer 5 times with a his .357 magnum center mass in the chest.
The bad guy lives. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
BadKarmaThe Advanced Literature monsters burned my house and gave me a 7Join Date: 2002-11-12Member: 8260Members
edited June 2005
5.56 tends to tumble actually, fairly nasty. Y'all are thinking of those "green tips", got a lot of bad pub on account of them being issued in Somalia, meant to pierce armor. The SF boys really didnt like em. The FMJ stuff they use now is pretty nasty though.
Edit: Like I said, a pistol, no matter how big, is still a pistol. You want your oponnent out of the game, use a rifle.
Omega_DeathSith apprentice to a box of CerealJoin Date: 2003-08-06Member: 19042Members
Yeah the more and more I hear the better a Glock sounds. Cheap ammo, decent priced weapon, simple design and care. And yes many of you picked up quite easily that I'm very unexperienced with weapons. I'm looking for a nice gun that isn't too pricey and will be reliable to go out shooting and possibly hunting. Thanks for all your advise and the links (enot sure about those giant .50 cal Sniper Rifles, I could never see a need for one of those, unless deer start wearing kevlar).
If I'm going down the pistol road I'm more than likely going to get a Glock or some variant of the 1911. If the rifle road probably the M1 Garand, the Mini-14 just seems like a toy to me. Thanks all.
<!--QuoteBegin-CplDavis+Jun 19 2005, 12:07 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CplDavis @ Jun 19 2005, 12:07 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-NumbersNotFound+Jun 18 2005, 10:52 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (NumbersNotFound @ Jun 18 2005, 10:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-BulletHead+Jun 18 2005, 10:49 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BulletHead @ Jun 18 2005, 10:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-BadKarma+Jun 18 2005, 10:19 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BadKarma @ Jun 18 2005, 10:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-BulletHead+Jun 18 2005, 10:11 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BulletHead @ Jun 18 2005, 10:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I said I was exagerating a lttle, but it's a pretty good comparison
After all, a 1911 Colt 45 Auto WILL put you down so long as it hits your upper body. I don't care where. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not true dude. A pistol is just not a really truely effective combat weapon. If people have taken multiple 5.56x45mm rounds to the torso and still have had the gumption to run away, no pistol will automatically make you sit down. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> problem is, and even the US Army has noticed this, that the 5.56x45mm round is a clean and cut wound. Straight in. No shatter. It almost sounds like an AP round being used on an unarmored target IMHO <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's a fast moving, small round in a FMJ. Of course it'll be fairly clean. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> perfect example of how things dont always work out.
A State trooper in the late 90s was killed when a seemingly friendly cooperative man decided to suddenly pull out a gun during a speeding traffic stop.
He shot the trooper 1 time with a .22. It went though the state troopers arm and entered his chest from the side missing his ballistic vest.
The tiny little .22 lodged into an artery near his heart and he bled to death internaly and died at the scene a few minuets later.
But before he did he shot his killer 5 times with a his .357 magnum center mass in the chest.
The bad guy lives. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Funny, I almost wrote an explicit exception to a .22LR...
.22s are funny because they are very small, light, and fast moving. They tend to hit something hard and spin and tumble and deliver all of their energy to the body quite violently, rather than just blow through it.
Omega_DeathSith apprentice to a box of CerealJoin Date: 2003-08-06Member: 19042Members
<!--QuoteBegin-UKchaos+Jun 19 2005, 02:24 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (UKchaos @ Jun 19 2005, 02:24 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> People use glocks for hunting? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> No the Glock would be in the have fun and go out shooting targets area, but you know if you get within 10 yards of prey I don't see why not.
Disclaimer: I did not read through the entire thread, but I did laugh at the (presumed) anti-gun statements that got owned on the first page.
See, the thing about the 5.56NATO (.223) (Both M193 and M855, the latter currently in use), is that it destructively fragments at ranges of anywhere from 80 to 120+ yards, depending on barrel length. Both the 55 grain M193 and the 62 grain M855 are very effective close-range rounds. They are cheap, accurate, available in surplus (although not as much recently due to the "war on terror"), and as with all 5.56 cartridges, they have low recoil. There are other rounds out there for 5.56 (Mk262 comes to mind) designed to incrase fragmentation range, but these rounds are heavier, and might require a barrel with a 1:7 twist to effectively stabilize the round. I recommend you read up on <a href='http://www.ammo-oracle.com/body.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.ammo-oracle.com/body.htm</a> for more information, if you are interested in a 5.56/.223 rifle (You can fire .223 in a 5.56 barrel, but not 5.56 in a .223).
I see you want something for target shooting. Normally, I'd recommend a pistol or rifle chambered in .22 Long Rifle. The ammunition is extremely cheap, usually as low as $3 for 100 rounds of the good stuff (CCI minimags and the such). Recoil is virtually non-existant, noise/report is lower than other centerfire cartridges, and ultimately, everything is cheaper. This is important for an aspiring shooter, as you don't want to buy something that will cost you too much money in the short run, especially because you won't have a reloading setup available to you. However, nowadays, with cheap 9mm ball ammunition running as low as $14 or so for 100 rounds, a good 9mm handgun or rifle carbine comes to mind. Some popular handguns chambered in 9mm:
<img src='http://www.kentaurzbrane.cz/shop/images/sklady/glock%2017%20velky.gif' border='0' alt='user posted image' /> Glock 17 I've never shot a Glock 17, but I have shot it's little brother, the compact Glock 19. Glocks are very accurate, RELIABLE, well-made (they have 3 safeties), and "powerful" (glock barrels use polygonal rifling which has a bit of a tigher seal. This will give you a little bit of a higher velocity).
<img src='http://www.gunshopfinder.com/Glock/G19.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' /> Glock 19 I've put 100 rounds through a Glock 19 before, and the gun fit in my hand absolutely phenomenally. I have very long fingers, and even though this is technically a compact model, it felt very good in my hand. The muzzle flip was decent, recoil was low, and it was very accurate. A good buy, especially if you're considering personal defense or concealed carry. It's very concealable with a good holster. <img src='http://www.hkconcealmentsystems.com/Glock%2019%20with%20Velcro%20sleaves.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
I've fired the G19's bigger brother, the Glock 23, which is the same thing, except chambered in .40S&W.
If you're looking for something a bit more concealable, check out the Glock 26. <img src='http://www.pistoletchik.ru/library/gallery/glock26.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' /> I've never fired one myself, but they are very compact, and perfect for concealed carry. If you don't like the grip, you can buy magazine grip extenders that have a fourth groove for your pinky (usually you'd curl it under the magazine baseplate/floorplate). Some of these extenders also add additional cartridge capacity, too.
That about sums it up for Glocks chambered in 9mm. All Glocks are "Safe Action", which is similar to double action.
Browning Hi-Power <img src='http://www.libertyarms.net/images/Browning%20Hi%20Power.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' /> I've never fired one, but the BHP is a very reliable design (designed by John Browning, who also designed the famous 1911 pistol). I believe it's still in use by military and police forces around the globe today. The BHP is single action, meaning you must **** the hammer before your first shot.
Beretta 92FS <img src='http://www.carabinieri.it/arma/oggi/armi/img/beretta_92FS_01.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' /> This classic handgun has been in use with our US military since the 80's and many police forces for quite a while. It's a very reliable handgun (although technically and slightly less than others due to it's open-top slide design). I've fired it's Brigadier varient, which just has a heavier slide for reduced felt recoil and muzzle flip. The sight radius is long, which is good for target shooting, and it has ergonomic controls. It's a double-action pistol, meaning that pulling the trigger both **** the hammer and releases it. It can also be fired in single-action mode, of course. Beretta has been making firearms for nearly 500 years. They are a good company. It's also available in .40S&W, called the Model 96 (instead of 92).
CZ-75 <img src='http://www.mars.dti.ne.jp/~saitota/cz-75.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' /> Here we have the CZ-75. Used by the Czech police, it is a very good pistol design, and very inexpensive. I'd almost go as far as to call it a baby glock... high reliablility, and inexpensive price. I've never fired one before, but everybody gives them rave reviews.
Walther P99 (manufactored by Smith & Wesson in the USA) <img src='http://www.waltheramerica.com/images/p99.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' /> I've never fired one before, but I have handled one. It's a reliable, ergonomic 9mm pistol (also available in .40S&W). The gun comes with 3 replaceable backstraps (thin, normal, and thick) for a more personalized, ergonomic fit. Another good choice. They make a .22 version called the P22. It's cheaper, and has an external hammer. Never fired that either, but people seem to like it.
Hk USP/USPc (Compact) <img src='http://www.machinegun.pl/sklep/images/ksc_usp_compact.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' /> (Compact model shown) I've never fired one of these either (however, I intend to, my next trip to the range), but they are very well-made pistols by a good company (Heckler and Koch (pronounced Coke). They are somewhat expensive, but will serve you well. The USP line is available in all major calibers.
The only 9mm carbine I can think of off-hand is the Beretta CX4 Storm. <img src='http://images.gunsamerica.com/upload/976480009-1.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' /> They use pistol magazines, and are available in 9mm, .40, and .45 if my memory serves me right. I've never shot one (been meaning to rent one at my local range), but everyone seems to like them. They are ergonomic, have good expandability (integrated optics rail if my memory serves me correct), and are FUN.
.22 pistols... I'd recommend a Browning Buckmark, <img src='http://www.kimdutoit.com/images/Browning_Buckmark_Field.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' /> (never fired one) Or, a Ruger MkII/III <img src='http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Firearms/images/News-MKIII512.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' /> I've fired one of these before, and they are good target pistols. Accurate and cheap to run. However, they are a b!tch to strip and clean.
Rifles... the venerable AR15 is available in 5.56MM/.223, and available in infinite combinations, ranging from a 24" SS Varminter, to a classic 20" Govt model, to a shorty M4gery 16" bbl (barrel) loaded with gimmicks and optics up the ****: <img src='http://www.rockerssoft.com/brockers/images/ar15_2.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' /> I've fired one before, and they are fun as hell. Naturally accurate and reliable, too. However, a bit pricey. A cheaper alternative is the Mini-14: <img src='http://blog.feelourpain.com/archives/mini14.JPG' border='0' alt='user posted image' /> Never tried one myself. I believe it's chambered in .223, not 5.56, however.
Oh yeah, the .22 rifle... Ruger 10/22, the most popular: <img src='http://www.ruger.com/Firearms/images/Products/124L.gif' border='0' alt='user posted image' /> Cheap, too (unlike the AR15!) Never shot one myself.
The next step up, military cartridge wise, would be the 7.62x39. The first, and most recognized: <img src='http://deptinfo.unice.fr/twiki/pub/Main/RighiJeanFrancois/ak47-3.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' /> The AK47, and it's varients. Never fired one. Not too expensive, and ammo is plentiful and cheap, as is with all military calibers. There are other rifles out there, such as the SKS, which are usually milsurp, and require extensive knowledge in cleaning off cosmoline, etc. If you can get a clean and/or new SKS, go for it. They're a great value.
Moving up again, 7.62x51 NATO, AKA .308: Good 'ol M14/M1A: <img src='http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m-14-dvic530.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' /> I've fired the Springfield SOCOM before, a 16" barreled M1A with a synthetic stock. Probably one of the most fun rifles out there. Accurate and reliable.
AR10/other .308 AR15 varients: <img src='http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/weapons/308/images/BCWA2S-308-20IZ.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' /> Good guns based on a reliable action. The Bushmaster AR10's can use FAL magazines, which are cheap and plentiful. Never tried one myself.
FAL, one of the most common military rifles out there (one of the most reliable, too!): <img src='http://weaponarts.com/images/FALpic2LG.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' /> Never tried one myself.
Oh yeah, bolt action rifles. Most popular is the Remington 700 series, available in everything from .223 to .300 Win Mag (and possibly beyond, iirc): <img src='http://www.hunt101.com/img/182402.JPG' border='0' alt='user posted image' /> Never used one, but everyone likes them. Tons of upgradability and expansion options, due to it's popularity (the AR15 of bolt action rifles, I guess).
I'm not going to go into shotguns, but almost anything from Remington, Mossberg, and Benelli will serve you well. Popular ones include the Remington 870, the Mossberg 500 and 590 series (500 series is the shotgun of the US Marine Corps), and the Benelli Nova/Mx series.
Keep in mind this is just scratching the very tip of the iceberg. I'd ask the exact same question over at www.glocktalk.com and www.ar15.com. They will be much better suited for your questions, rather than this forum. Also, read as much as you can on those 2 forums and soak up as much information as you can. Both sites are very helpful to new firearms shooters. Oh yeah, if you want to hunt with a handgun (just saw that last post), Glock makes models in 10mm which has the muzzle energy of a .357 Magnum. This is late morning rambling, but I hope you learned something. Once again, www.glocktalk.com and www.ar15.com .
<!--QuoteBegin-NumbersNotFound+Jun 19 2005, 02:26 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (NumbersNotFound @ Jun 19 2005, 02:26 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-CplDavis+Jun 19 2005, 12:07 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CplDavis @ Jun 19 2005, 12:07 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-NumbersNotFound+Jun 18 2005, 10:52 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (NumbersNotFound @ Jun 18 2005, 10:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-BulletHead+Jun 18 2005, 10:49 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BulletHead @ Jun 18 2005, 10:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-BadKarma+Jun 18 2005, 10:19 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BadKarma @ Jun 18 2005, 10:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-BulletHead+Jun 18 2005, 10:11 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BulletHead @ Jun 18 2005, 10:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I said I was exagerating a lttle, but it's a pretty good comparison
After all, a 1911 Colt 45 Auto WILL put you down so long as it hits your upper body. I don't care where. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not true dude. A pistol is just not a really truely effective combat weapon. If people have taken multiple 5.56x45mm rounds to the torso and still have had the gumption to run away, no pistol will automatically make you sit down. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> problem is, and even the US Army has noticed this, that the 5.56x45mm round is a clean and cut wound. Straight in. No shatter. It almost sounds like an AP round being used on an unarmored target IMHO <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's a fast moving, small round in a FMJ. Of course it'll be fairly clean. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> perfect example of how things dont always work out.
A State trooper in the late 90s was killed when a seemingly friendly cooperative man decided to suddenly pull out a gun during a speeding traffic stop.
He shot the trooper 1 time with a .22. It went though the state troopers arm and entered his chest from the side missing his ballistic vest.
The tiny little .22 lodged into an artery near his heart and he bled to death internaly and died at the scene a few minuets later.
But before he did he shot his killer 5 times with a his .357 magnum center mass in the chest.
The bad guy lives. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Funny, I almost wrote an explicit exception to a .22LR...
.22s are funny because they are very small, light, and fast moving. They tend to hit something hard and spin and tumble and deliver all of their energy to the body quite violently, rather than just blow through it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Most .22 FMJ ammo will just break up in muscle tissue.
CplDavisI hunt the arctic SnonosJoin Date: 2003-01-09Member: 12097Members
edited June 2005
[QUOTE=NumbersNotFound,Jun 19 2005, 02:26 AM] perfect example of how things dont always work out.
A State trooper in the late 90s was killed when a seemingly friendly cooperative man decided to suddenly pull out a gun during a speeding traffic stop.
He shot the trooper 1 time with a .22. It went though the state troopers arm and entered his chest from the side missing his ballistic vest.
The tiny little .22 lodged into an artery near his heart and he bled to death internaly and died at the scene a few minuets later.
But before he did he shot his killer 5 times with a his .357 magnum center mass in the chest.
The bad guy lives. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> [/QUOTE] Funny, I almost wrote an explicit exception to a .22LR...
.22s are funny because they are very small, light, and fast moving. They tend to hit something hard and spin and tumble and deliver all of their energy to the body quite violently, rather than just blow through it. [/QUOTE] Oh yes i know I was just giving an example how perceived size doesnt matter for those people here with no firearms expirience.
and to who ever stated earlier (cant remember) that mini-14s are crap or something. What makes you say that out of curisosity?
Never had a problem when I shoot one, plus I like how there are so many options you can get to change parts, Its a lot cheaper (but still quality) sidepart to buying an AR type of carbine.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->problem is, and even the US Army has noticed this, that the 5.56x45mm round is a clean and cut wound. Straight in. No shatter. It almost sounds like an AP round being used on an unarmored target IMHO <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->5.56 tends to tumble actually, fairly nasty. Y'all are thinking of those "green tips", got a lot of bad pub on account of them being issued in Somalia, meant to pierce armor. The SF boys really didnt like em. The FMJ stuff they use now is pretty nasty though.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The "FMJ they use now" ARE those "green tips". It's called M855, and it's standard issue now.
I've already gone over the terminal effects of the 5.56 in a previous post, and I'm not going to beat a dead horse, suffice to say that "tumbling" is something just about every FMJ rifle round does. It's not special or unique to the 5.56. In my earlier reply I went over the fragmenting characteristic of the round, and as bond mentioned, it's dependant on muzzle velocity. Once the bullet isn't going fast enough to fragment, then it just leaves those "clean and cut wounds" (also known as "icepicking" the target). The reason the special forces had trouble with it is because they were shooting it out of an 11.5" barrel, and the carbines couldn't get the bullet going fast enough to fragment past about 15 meters.
M193 would have been the better choice of the two for use against unarmored targets, and M855 more suited for body armor wearing professional armies, but eh...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->See, the thing about the 5.56NATO (.223) (Both M193 and M855, the latter currently in use), is that it destructively fragments at ranges of anywhere from 80 to 120+ yards, depending on barrel length. Both the 55 grain M193 and the 62 grain M855 are very effective close-range rounds. They are cheap, accurate, available in surplus (although not as much recently due to the "war on terror"), and as with all 5.56 cartridges, they have low recoil. There are other rounds out there for 5.56 (Mk262 comes to mind) designed to decrease fragmentation range, but these rounds are heavier, and might require a barrel with a 1:7 twist to effectively stabilize the round. I recommend you read up on <a href='http://www.ammo-oracle.com/body.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.ammo-oracle.com/body.htm</a> for more information, if you are interested in a 5.56/.223 rifle (You can fire .223 in a 5.56 barrel, but not 5.56 in a .223).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thank you. I've been trying to get this across since page 4 <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Im no fan of the Mini's. It's a lot of money for something that other much cheaper rifles can do, and in some cases do better. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly.
Davis: It's not so much that the mini is crap, it's just that for the price, people expect to have decent rifle right out of the box instead of having to pay a few hundred in aftermarket tweaks to get it purring right. Especially with the alternatives currently out there. The primary complaints I've seen are poor accuracy (from a number of causes) and questionable reliability with aftermarket magazines (although there is suppose to be a decent one out there now that the AWB has expired)
Now some people like the rifle so much that they're willing to spend the money and made it a decent shooter. Many enjoy the work involved- then again, many do not. For the price you end up paying, in the case of the Mini-14, you could have gotten an SU-16 that does it right out of the box and accepts the more common and reliable M-16 30 round magazines. Or save up a few hundred more and get a decent AR-15. In the case of the mini-30, both the SKS and SAR-1 (as well as other AK clones) are all the gun at a great deal less cost.
The alternatives are just more bang for the buck, but again, to each their own.
BadKarmaThe Advanced Literature monsters burned my house and gave me a 7Join Date: 2002-11-12Member: 8260Members
<!--QuoteBegin-Burncycle+Jun 19 2005, 03:08 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Burncycle @ Jun 19 2005, 03:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The "FMJ they use now" ARE those "green tips". It's called M855, and it's standard issue now. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I did not know that. And i've seen my skanky Yugo SKS outperform Minis, much to the owners dismay. I got a set of those aperture sights from Tech Sights. My accuracy doubled, their really great sights.
<!--QuoteBegin-BadKarma+Jun 19 2005, 12:07 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BadKarma @ Jun 19 2005, 12:07 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 5.56 tends to tumble actually, fairly nasty. Y'all are thinking of those "green tips", got a lot of bad pub on account of them being issued in Somalia, meant to pierce armor. The SF boys really didnt like em. The FMJ stuff they use now is pretty nasty though.
Edit: Like I said, a pistol, no matter how big, is still a pistol. You want your oponnent out of the game, use a rifle. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Good luck using a rifle in CQC at less than 2 yards...
BadKarmaThe Advanced Literature monsters burned my house and gave me a 7Join Date: 2002-11-12Member: 8260Members
I didn't say I discount the pistol entirely. It's purpose is clear and obvious. Then again, if your fighting and your enemy is within grabbin' distance, your "fixin' to get **** up" metre is goin crazy.
I think that guns are one of those things you don't need to personally own. Sure, you can like shooting (this isn't the point of this topic) but why own one if you will go to the range to shoot it? You're shooting at dummy targets right? They can lend you one, can't they? Maybe not the same feeling as having your own rifle, but that allows you to change more often, and not ruin yourself on the purchase and maintenance of sensitive equipment. Not to mention that'll eventually prevent accidents <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> (not talking about you specifically)
Also, do they sell automatic weaponry? That's slightly crazy <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Cereal KillR+Jun 19 2005, 04:10 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cereal KillR @ Jun 19 2005, 04:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I think that guns are one of those things you don't need to personally own. Sure, you can like shooting (this isn't the point of this topic) but why own one if you will go to the range to shoot it? You're shooting at dummy targets right? They can lend you one, can't they? Maybe not the same feeling as having your own rifle, but that allows you to change more often, and not ruin yourself on the purchase and maintenance of sensitive equipment. Not to mention that'll eventually prevent accidents <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> (not talking about you specifically)
Also, do they sell automatic weaponry? That's slightly crazy <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> i love killing bunnies
BadKarmaThe Advanced Literature monsters burned my house and gave me a 7Join Date: 2002-11-12Member: 8260Members
<!--QuoteBegin-Cereal KillR+Jun 19 2005, 04:10 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cereal KillR @ Jun 19 2005, 04:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I think that guns are one of those things you don't need to personally own. Sure, you can like shooting (this isn't the point of this topic) but why own one if you will go to the range to shoot it? You're shooting at dummy targets right? They can lend you one, can't they? Maybe not the same feeling as having your own rifle, but that allows you to change more often, and not ruin yourself on the purchase and maintenance of sensitive equipment. Not to mention that'll eventually prevent accidents <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> (not talking about you specifically)
Also, do they sell automatic weaponry? That's slightly crazy <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Comon man, lookit the first page of this thing, don't go there. I'm likin' this topic, don't get it locked on me.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And i've seen my skanky Yugo SKS outperform Minis, much to the owners dismay.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Satisfying isn't it? Then you can rub it in by telling them how much you paid for yours <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
CplDavisI hunt the arctic SnonosJoin Date: 2003-01-09Member: 12097Members
edited June 2005
<!--QuoteBegin-BulletHead+Jun 19 2005, 03:58 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BulletHead @ Jun 19 2005, 03:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-BadKarma+Jun 19 2005, 12:07 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BadKarma @ Jun 19 2005, 12:07 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 5.56 tends to tumble actually, fairly nasty. Y'all are thinking of those "green tips", got a lot of bad pub on account of them being issued in Somalia, meant to pierce armor. The SF boys really didnt like em. The FMJ stuff they use now is pretty nasty though.
Edit: Like I said, a pistol, no matter how big, is still a pistol. You want your oponnent out of the game, use a rifle. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Good luck using a rifle in CQC at less than 2 yards... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> In CQB (its close quarters battle, not combat) there are times when you do want a handgun. due to the tiny and enclosed places where a rifle, shotgun, or even a carbine or submachine gun would be ungainly.
Also to the comment by Cereal Killer
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I think that guns are one of those things you don't need to personally own. Sure, you can like shooting (this isn't the point of this topic) but why own one if you will go to the range to shoot it? You're shooting at dummy targets right? They can lend you one, can't they?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In many, many cases, competitive target shooting is not simply standing there shooting at targets.
In many cases whether it be professional national or even international tacticalshooting compeititions or speed courses etc, the participants use a wide variety of handguns within in the contraints of the contest.
Many of the firearms used are outfited with a boat load of money and customisations, everything from match grade parts, to customised trigger pull, and aftermarket grips to make the pistol totally custom (within the rules) and persoanlised to the shooters hand etc.
Just as people will customise their racing cars (im talking both professional and amature) with preformance parts so will high class and serious competitive shooters.
These firearms are kept and mantained to a perfect refined state. And a single handgun can be vauled at several thousand dollars in terms of value after all the parts are installed.
Omega_DeathSith apprentice to a box of CerealJoin Date: 2003-08-06Member: 19042Members
<!--QuoteBegin-Cereal KillR+Jun 19 2005, 04:10 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cereal KillR @ Jun 19 2005, 04:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Sure, you can like shooting (this isn't the point of this topic) but why own one if you will go to the range to shoot it? You're shooting at dummy targets right? They can lend you one, can't they? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well yeah you can go out to a shooting range and rent a gun. Which you have to buy ammo for. If you want to do this often then it will total up quickly. Plus I live in an area that's heavily wooded (the Black Hills are great for people who like forests and not quite mountains) so hunting is pretty prevelant. Plus I can drive 10-20 minutes to an outdoor open range, completely deserted open shooting, can't rent weapons there.
Plus, by personally owning a gun one can get used to the subtle nuances of the particular gun, as well as personalize it without losing the insurance deposit, heh.
Comments
The exit wound man!
You have soft tissue being torn by
bullet
Bit of bone
chunks of flesh
strips of bacon/muscle
and other sinew
plus clothing and possible armor <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
IF you are using a hollowpoint, then the bullet may be... maybe twice the diameter on exit. If that.
It's not gonna leave a hole on exit much bigger than that. IF it even makes an exit wound. Large bullets (like the 45ACP) are slower moving and have less penetration power. This is good, as all of the energy of the shot is transfered to the target.
Hollowpoints cause even less chance of an exit.
After all, a 1911 Colt 45 Auto WILL put you down so long as it hits your upper body. I don't care where. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not true dude. A pistol is just not a really truely effective combat weapon. If people have taken multiple 5.56x45mm rounds to the torso and still have had the gumption to run away, no pistol will automatically make you sit down.
After all, a 1911 Colt 45 Auto WILL put you down so long as it hits your upper body. I don't care where. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not true dude. A pistol is just not a really truely effective combat weapon. If people have taken multiple 5.56x45mm rounds to the torso and still have had the gumption to run away, no pistol will automatically make you sit down. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
problem is, and even the US Army has noticed this, that the 5.56x45mm round is a clean and cut wound. Straight in. No shatter. It almost sounds like an AP round being used on an unarmored target IMHO
After all, a 1911 Colt 45 Auto WILL put you down so long as it hits your upper body. I don't care where. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not true dude. A pistol is just not a really truely effective combat weapon. If people have taken multiple 5.56x45mm rounds to the torso and still have had the gumption to run away, no pistol will automatically make you sit down. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
problem is, and even the US Army has noticed this, that the 5.56x45mm round is a clean and cut wound. Straight in. No shatter. It almost sounds like an AP round being used on an unarmored target IMHO <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's a fast moving, small round in a FMJ. Of course it'll be fairly clean.
After all, a 1911 Colt 45 Auto WILL put you down so long as it hits your upper body. I don't care where. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not true dude. A pistol is just not a really truely effective combat weapon. If people have taken multiple 5.56x45mm rounds to the torso and still have had the gumption to run away, no pistol will automatically make you sit down. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
problem is, and even the US Army has noticed this, that the 5.56x45mm round is a clean and cut wound. Straight in. No shatter. It almost sounds like an AP round being used on an unarmored target IMHO <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's a fast moving, small round in a FMJ. Of course it'll be fairly clean. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
perfect example of how things dont always work out.
A State trooper in the late 90s was killed when a seemingly friendly cooperative man decided to suddenly pull out a gun during a speeding traffic stop.
He shot the trooper 1 time with a .22. It went though the state troopers arm and entered his chest from the side missing his ballistic vest.
The tiny little .22 lodged into an artery near his heart and he bled to death internaly and died at the scene a few minuets later.
But before he did he shot his killer 5 times with a his .357 magnum center mass in the chest.
The bad guy lives. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Edit: Like I said, a pistol, no matter how big, is still a pistol. You want your oponnent out of the game, use a rifle.
If I'm going down the pistol road I'm more than likely going to get a Glock or some variant of the 1911. If the rifle road probably the M1 Garand, the Mini-14 just seems like a toy to me. Thanks all.
After all, a 1911 Colt 45 Auto WILL put you down so long as it hits your upper body. I don't care where. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not true dude. A pistol is just not a really truely effective combat weapon. If people have taken multiple 5.56x45mm rounds to the torso and still have had the gumption to run away, no pistol will automatically make you sit down. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
problem is, and even the US Army has noticed this, that the 5.56x45mm round is a clean and cut wound. Straight in. No shatter. It almost sounds like an AP round being used on an unarmored target IMHO <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's a fast moving, small round in a FMJ. Of course it'll be fairly clean. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
perfect example of how things dont always work out.
A State trooper in the late 90s was killed when a seemingly friendly cooperative man decided to suddenly pull out a gun during a speeding traffic stop.
He shot the trooper 1 time with a .22. It went though the state troopers arm and entered his chest from the side missing his ballistic vest.
The tiny little .22 lodged into an artery near his heart and he bled to death internaly and died at the scene a few minuets later.
But before he did he shot his killer 5 times with a his .357 magnum center mass in the chest.
The bad guy lives. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Funny, I almost wrote an explicit exception to a .22LR...
.22s are funny because they are very small, light, and fast moving. They tend to hit something hard and spin and tumble and deliver all of their energy to the body quite violently, rather than just blow through it.
No the Glock would be in the have fun and go out shooting targets area, but you know if you get within 10 yards of prey I don't see why not.
See, the thing about the 5.56NATO (.223) (Both M193 and M855, the latter currently in use), is that it destructively fragments at ranges of anywhere from 80 to 120+ yards, depending on barrel length. Both the 55 grain M193 and the 62 grain M855 are very effective close-range rounds. They are cheap, accurate, available in surplus (although not as much recently due to the "war on terror"), and as with all 5.56 cartridges, they have low recoil. There are other rounds out there for 5.56 (Mk262 comes to mind) designed to incrase fragmentation range, but these rounds are heavier, and might require a barrel with a 1:7 twist to effectively stabilize the round. I recommend you read up on <a href='http://www.ammo-oracle.com/body.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.ammo-oracle.com/body.htm</a> for more information, if you are interested in a 5.56/.223 rifle (You can fire .223 in a 5.56 barrel, but not 5.56 in a .223).
I see you want something for target shooting. Normally, I'd recommend a pistol or rifle chambered in .22 Long Rifle. The ammunition is extremely cheap, usually as low as $3 for 100 rounds of the good stuff (CCI minimags and the such). Recoil is virtually non-existant, noise/report is lower than other centerfire cartridges, and ultimately, everything is cheaper. This is important for an aspiring shooter, as you don't want to buy something that will cost you too much money in the short run, especially because you won't have a reloading setup available to you. However, nowadays, with cheap 9mm ball ammunition running as low as $14 or so for 100 rounds, a good 9mm handgun or rifle carbine comes to mind. Some popular handguns chambered in 9mm:
<img src='http://www.kentaurzbrane.cz/shop/images/sklady/glock%2017%20velky.gif' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
Glock 17
I've never shot a Glock 17, but I have shot it's little brother, the compact Glock 19. Glocks are very accurate, RELIABLE, well-made (they have 3 safeties), and "powerful" (glock barrels use polygonal rifling which has a bit of a tigher seal. This will give you a little bit of a higher velocity).
<img src='http://www.gunshopfinder.com/Glock/G19.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
Glock 19
I've put 100 rounds through a Glock 19 before, and the gun fit in my hand absolutely phenomenally. I have very long fingers, and even though this is technically a compact model, it felt very good in my hand. The muzzle flip was decent, recoil was low, and it was very accurate. A good buy, especially if you're considering personal defense or concealed carry. It's very concealable with a good holster.
<img src='http://www.hkconcealmentsystems.com/Glock%2019%20with%20Velcro%20sleaves.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
I've fired the G19's bigger brother, the Glock 23, which is the same thing, except chambered in .40S&W.
If you're looking for something a bit more concealable, check out the Glock 26.
<img src='http://www.pistoletchik.ru/library/gallery/glock26.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
I've never fired one myself, but they are very compact, and perfect for concealed carry. If you don't like the grip, you can buy magazine grip extenders that have a fourth groove for your pinky (usually you'd curl it under the magazine baseplate/floorplate). Some of these extenders also add additional cartridge capacity, too.
That about sums it up for Glocks chambered in 9mm. All Glocks are "Safe Action", which is similar to double action.
Browning Hi-Power
<img src='http://www.libertyarms.net/images/Browning%20Hi%20Power.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
I've never fired one, but the BHP is a very reliable design (designed by John Browning, who also designed the famous 1911 pistol). I believe it's still in use by military and police forces around the globe today. The BHP is single action, meaning you must **** the hammer before your first shot.
Beretta 92FS
<img src='http://www.carabinieri.it/arma/oggi/armi/img/beretta_92FS_01.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
This classic handgun has been in use with our US military since the 80's and many police forces for quite a while. It's a very reliable handgun (although technically and slightly less than others due to it's open-top slide design). I've fired it's Brigadier varient, which just has a heavier slide for reduced felt recoil and muzzle flip. The sight radius is long, which is good for target shooting, and it has ergonomic controls. It's a double-action pistol, meaning that pulling the trigger both **** the hammer and releases it. It can also be fired in single-action mode, of course. Beretta has been making firearms for nearly 500 years. They are a good company. It's also available in .40S&W, called the Model 96 (instead of 92).
CZ-75
<img src='http://www.mars.dti.ne.jp/~saitota/cz-75.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
Here we have the CZ-75. Used by the Czech police, it is a very good pistol design, and very inexpensive. I'd almost go as far as to call it a baby glock... high reliablility, and inexpensive price. I've never fired one before, but everybody gives them rave reviews.
Walther P99 (manufactored by Smith & Wesson in the USA)
<img src='http://www.waltheramerica.com/images/p99.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
I've never fired one before, but I have handled one. It's a reliable, ergonomic 9mm pistol (also available in .40S&W). The gun comes with 3 replaceable backstraps (thin, normal, and thick) for a more personalized, ergonomic fit. Another good choice. They make a .22 version called the P22. It's cheaper, and has an external hammer. Never fired that either, but people seem to like it.
Hk USP/USPc (Compact)
<img src='http://www.machinegun.pl/sklep/images/ksc_usp_compact.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
(Compact model shown)
I've never fired one of these either (however, I intend to, my next trip to the range), but they are very well-made pistols by a good company (Heckler and Koch (pronounced Coke). They are somewhat expensive, but will serve you well. The USP line is available in all major calibers.
The only 9mm carbine I can think of off-hand is the Beretta CX4 Storm.
<img src='http://images.gunsamerica.com/upload/976480009-1.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
They use pistol magazines, and are available in 9mm, .40, and .45 if my memory serves me right. I've never shot one (been meaning to rent one at my local range), but everyone seems to like them. They are ergonomic, have good expandability (integrated optics rail if my memory serves me correct), and are FUN.
.22 pistols... I'd recommend a Browning Buckmark,
<img src='http://www.kimdutoit.com/images/Browning_Buckmark_Field.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
(never fired one)
Or, a Ruger MkII/III
<img src='http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Firearms/images/News-MKIII512.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
I've fired one of these before, and they are good target pistols. Accurate and cheap to run. However, they are a b!tch to strip and clean.
Rifles... the venerable AR15 is available in 5.56MM/.223, and available in infinite combinations, ranging from a 24" SS Varminter, to a classic 20" Govt model, to a shorty M4gery 16" bbl (barrel) loaded with gimmicks and optics up the ****:
<img src='http://www.rockerssoft.com/brockers/images/ar15_2.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
I've fired one before, and they are fun as hell. Naturally accurate and reliable, too. However, a bit pricey. A cheaper alternative is the Mini-14:
<img src='http://blog.feelourpain.com/archives/mini14.JPG' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
Never tried one myself. I believe it's chambered in .223, not 5.56, however.
Oh yeah, the .22 rifle...
Ruger 10/22, the most popular:
<img src='http://www.ruger.com/Firearms/images/Products/124L.gif' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
Cheap, too (unlike the AR15!) Never shot one myself.
The next step up, military cartridge wise, would be the 7.62x39.
The first, and most recognized:
<img src='http://deptinfo.unice.fr/twiki/pub/Main/RighiJeanFrancois/ak47-3.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
The AK47, and it's varients. Never fired one. Not too expensive, and ammo is plentiful and cheap, as is with all military calibers.
There are other rifles out there, such as the SKS, which are usually milsurp, and require extensive knowledge in cleaning off cosmoline, etc. If you can get a clean and/or new SKS, go for it. They're a great value.
Moving up again, 7.62x51 NATO, AKA .308:
Good 'ol M14/M1A:
<img src='http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m-14-dvic530.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
I've fired the Springfield SOCOM before, a 16" barreled M1A with a synthetic stock. Probably one of the most fun rifles out there. Accurate and reliable.
AR10/other .308 AR15 varients:
<img src='http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/weapons/308/images/BCWA2S-308-20IZ.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
Good guns based on a reliable action. The Bushmaster AR10's can use FAL magazines, which are cheap and plentiful. Never tried one myself.
FAL, one of the most common military rifles out there (one of the most reliable, too!):
<img src='http://weaponarts.com/images/FALpic2LG.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
Never tried one myself.
Oh yeah, bolt action rifles.
Most popular is the Remington 700 series, available in everything from .223 to .300 Win Mag (and possibly beyond, iirc):
<img src='http://www.hunt101.com/img/182402.JPG' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
Never used one, but everyone likes them. Tons of upgradability and expansion options, due to it's popularity (the AR15 of bolt action rifles, I guess).
I'm not going to go into shotguns, but almost anything from Remington, Mossberg, and Benelli will serve you well. Popular ones include the Remington 870, the Mossberg 500 and 590 series (500 series is the shotgun of the US Marine Corps), and the Benelli Nova/Mx series.
Keep in mind this is just scratching the very tip of the iceberg. I'd ask the exact same question over at www.glocktalk.com and www.ar15.com. They will be much better suited for your questions, rather than this forum. Also, read as much as you can on those 2 forums and soak up as much information as you can. Both sites are very helpful to new firearms shooters. Oh yeah, if you want to hunt with a handgun (just saw that last post), Glock makes models in 10mm which has the muzzle energy of a .357 Magnum. This is late morning rambling, but I hope you learned something. Once again, www.glocktalk.com and www.ar15.com .
After all, a 1911 Colt 45 Auto WILL put you down so long as it hits your upper body. I don't care where. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not true dude. A pistol is just not a really truely effective combat weapon. If people have taken multiple 5.56x45mm rounds to the torso and still have had the gumption to run away, no pistol will automatically make you sit down. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
problem is, and even the US Army has noticed this, that the 5.56x45mm round is a clean and cut wound. Straight in. No shatter. It almost sounds like an AP round being used on an unarmored target IMHO <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's a fast moving, small round in a FMJ. Of course it'll be fairly clean. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
perfect example of how things dont always work out.
A State trooper in the late 90s was killed when a seemingly friendly cooperative man decided to suddenly pull out a gun during a speeding traffic stop.
He shot the trooper 1 time with a .22. It went though the state troopers arm and entered his chest from the side missing his ballistic vest.
The tiny little .22 lodged into an artery near his heart and he bled to death internaly and died at the scene a few minuets later.
But before he did he shot his killer 5 times with a his .357 magnum center mass in the chest.
The bad guy lives. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Funny, I almost wrote an explicit exception to a .22LR...
.22s are funny because they are very small, light, and fast moving. They tend to hit something hard and spin and tumble and deliver all of their energy to the body quite violently, rather than just blow through it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Most .22 FMJ ammo will just break up in muscle tissue.
perfect example of how things dont always work out.
A State trooper in the late 90s was killed when a seemingly friendly cooperative man decided to suddenly pull out a gun during a speeding traffic stop.
He shot the trooper 1 time with a .22. It went though the state troopers arm and entered his chest from the side missing his ballistic vest.
The tiny little .22 lodged into an artery near his heart and he bled to death internaly and died at the scene a few minuets later.
But before he did he shot his killer 5 times with a his .357 magnum center mass in the chest.
The bad guy lives. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> [/QUOTE]
Funny, I almost wrote an explicit exception to a .22LR...
.22s are funny because they are very small, light, and fast moving. They tend to hit something hard and spin and tumble and deliver all of their energy to the body quite violently, rather than just blow through it. [/QUOTE]
Oh yes i know I was just giving an example how perceived size doesnt matter for those people here with no firearms expirience.
<!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
and to who ever stated earlier (cant remember) that mini-14s are crap or something. What makes you say that out of curisosity?
Never had a problem when I shoot one, plus I like how there are so many options you can get to change parts, Its a lot cheaper (but still quality) sidepart to buying an AR type of carbine.
PS-- oooh 4,000 posts! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->5.56 tends to tumble actually, fairly nasty. Y'all are thinking of those "green tips", got a lot of bad pub on account of them being issued in Somalia, meant to pierce armor. The SF boys really didnt like em. The FMJ stuff they use now is pretty nasty though.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The "FMJ they use now" ARE those "green tips". It's called M855, and it's standard issue now.
I've already gone over the terminal effects of the 5.56 in a previous post, and I'm not going to beat a dead horse, suffice to say that "tumbling" is something just about every FMJ rifle round does. It's not special or unique to the 5.56. In my earlier reply I went over the fragmenting characteristic of the round, and as bond mentioned, it's dependant on muzzle velocity. Once the bullet isn't going fast enough to fragment, then it just leaves those "clean and cut wounds" (also known as "icepicking" the target). The reason the special forces had trouble with it is because they were shooting it out of an 11.5" barrel, and the carbines couldn't get the bullet going fast enough to fragment past about 15 meters.
M193 would have been the better choice of the two for use against unarmored targets, and M855 more suited for body armor wearing professional armies, but eh...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->See, the thing about the 5.56NATO (.223) (Both M193 and M855, the latter currently in use), is that it destructively fragments at ranges of anywhere from 80 to 120+ yards, depending on barrel length. Both the 55 grain M193 and the 62 grain M855 are very effective close-range rounds. They are cheap, accurate, available in surplus (although not as much recently due to the "war on terror"), and as with all 5.56 cartridges, they have low recoil. There are other rounds out there for 5.56 (Mk262 comes to mind) designed to decrease fragmentation range, but these rounds are heavier, and might require a barrel with a 1:7 twist to effectively stabilize the round. I recommend you read up on <a href='http://www.ammo-oracle.com/body.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.ammo-oracle.com/body.htm</a> for more information, if you are interested in a 5.56/.223 rifle (You can fire .223 in a 5.56 barrel, but not 5.56 in a .223).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thank you. I've been trying to get this across since page 4 <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Im no fan of the Mini's. It's a lot of money for something that other much cheaper rifles can do, and in some cases do better. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly.
Davis: It's not so much that the mini is crap, it's just that for the price, people expect to have decent rifle right out of the box instead of having to pay a few hundred in aftermarket tweaks to get it purring right. Especially with the alternatives currently out there. The primary complaints I've seen are poor accuracy (from a number of causes) and questionable reliability with aftermarket magazines (although there is suppose to be a decent one out there now that the AWB has expired)
Now some people like the rifle so much that they're willing to spend the money and made it a decent shooter. Many enjoy the work involved- then again, many do not. For the price you end up paying, in the case of the Mini-14, you could have gotten an SU-16 that does it right out of the box and accepts the more common and reliable M-16 30 round magazines. Or save up a few hundred more and get a decent AR-15. In the case of the mini-30, both the SKS and SAR-1 (as well as other AK clones) are all the gun at a great deal less cost.
The alternatives are just more bang for the buck, but again, to each their own.
The "FMJ they use now" ARE those "green tips". It's called M855, and it's standard issue now.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I did not know that. And i've seen my skanky Yugo SKS outperform Minis, much to the owners dismay. I got a set of those aperture sights from Tech Sights. My accuracy doubled, their really great sights.
Edit: Like I said, a pistol, no matter how big, is still a pistol. You want your oponnent out of the game, use a rifle. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good luck using a rifle in CQC at less than 2 yards...
Maybe not the same feeling as having your own rifle, but that allows you to change more often, and not ruin yourself on the purchase and maintenance of sensitive equipment.
Not to mention that'll eventually prevent accidents <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> (not talking about you specifically)
Also, do they sell automatic weaponry? That's slightly crazy <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Maybe not the same feeling as having your own rifle, but that allows you to change more often, and not ruin yourself on the purchase and maintenance of sensitive equipment.
Not to mention that'll eventually prevent accidents <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> (not talking about you specifically)
Also, do they sell automatic weaponry? That's slightly crazy <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
i love killing bunnies
Maybe not the same feeling as having your own rifle, but that allows you to change more often, and not ruin yourself on the purchase and maintenance of sensitive equipment.
Not to mention that'll eventually prevent accidents <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> (not talking about you specifically)
Also, do they sell automatic weaponry? That's slightly crazy <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Comon man, lookit the first page of this thing, don't go there. I'm likin' this topic, don't get it locked on me.
Satisfying isn't it? Then you can rub it in by telling them how much you paid for yours <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Edit: Like I said, a pistol, no matter how big, is still a pistol. You want your oponnent out of the game, use a rifle. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good luck using a rifle in CQC at less than 2 yards... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In CQB (its close quarters battle, not combat) there are times when you do want a handgun. due to the tiny and enclosed places where a rifle, shotgun, or even a carbine or submachine gun would be ungainly.
Also to the comment by Cereal Killer
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I think that guns are one of those things you don't need to personally own. Sure, you can like shooting (this isn't the point of this topic) but why own one if you will go to the range to shoot it? You're shooting at dummy targets right? They can lend you one, can't they?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In many, many cases, competitive target shooting is not simply standing there shooting at targets.
In many cases whether it be professional national or even international tacticalshooting compeititions or speed courses etc, the participants use a wide variety of handguns within in the contraints of the contest.
Many of the firearms used are outfited with a boat load of money and customisations, everything from match grade parts, to customised trigger pull, and aftermarket grips to make the pistol totally custom (within the rules) and persoanlised to the shooters hand etc.
Just as people will customise their racing cars (im talking both professional and amature) with preformance parts so will high class and serious competitive shooters.
These firearms are kept and mantained to a perfect refined state. And a single handgun can be vauled at several thousand dollars in terms of value after all the parts are installed.
Well yeah you can go out to a shooting range and rent a gun. Which you have to buy ammo for. If you want to do this often then it will total up quickly. Plus I live in an area that's heavily wooded (the Black Hills are great for people who like forests and not quite mountains) so hunting is pretty prevelant. Plus I can drive 10-20 minutes to an outdoor open range, completely deserted open shooting, can't rent weapons there.