Quaunaut, no, you're wrong. The Cell will be very similar to Microsoft's 3 core Xenon processor. When it comes to regular tasks (running intensive applications), the MS core will beat the Cell. When it comes to doing specific tasks and dividing it up for its 7 subcores to execute, then the Cell will beat the Xenon.
Read the strengths/weakness (there's no real weakness in the general multi-use Xenon) of each processor's architecture before you start touting one around like a fanboy who got caught up by the PR hype.
Edit:
Regarding Cell's architecture, it's been the subject of heated criticism from Intel, the world's leading chip manufacturer. The concept itself is ahead of its time, but that doesn't mean it's a good chip for now. It's built on a 90 nm process, Intel has a Cell-like processor on its roadmap, but that will be built on a much smaller, more efficient 32 nm process and won't be due for another DECADE.
Again, be informed before being arrogant like myself.
It'll be interesting with the GPUs, though. ATi's already showing weakness in their discrete graphics card sector, R520 has been delayed and the 7800GTX is already out in volume. This could mean fabrication problems, a problem in architecture, or both, which means LOSE for ATi.
<!--QuoteBegin-Quaunaut+Jun 25 2005, 09:49 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Quaunaut @ Jun 25 2005, 09:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Maybe I'm going in the wrong direction with all of this, but frankly, this is the BIGGEST time for a Monopoly, Nem0. PS3, if it can pull off online with a great network comparable to Live, will dominate the field, with nothing in it's way whatsoever. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> A monopoly in the console market would kill innovation and good games as we know them. So you better pray no one ever maintains one; not even the PC will be safe.
Comparable to live? Then why isn't xbox currently pwning everything?
A network isn't all you need, and a monoply is never gaurenteed, especially with brand loyalties and whatnot.
But the point of this post is this:
That big computery thing (the ps3 dev kit) looks awesome and I want one.
That is all. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Alcapwn"War is the science of destruction" - John AbbotJoin Date: 2003-06-21Member: 17590Members
Its already been proved that you dont need a live-like network too dominate Online Gaming, before Halo2 came out, the most played online console game was socom2 for the ps2, which had 35,000 people at peak hours a night during last summer (North America) , and about 90,000 worldwide. <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif' /><!--endemo-->
That has been since beaten by halo2, but it does show you that on the whole, you dont need a full-network like xbox live, gamers go where the good games are.
Regardless of what happens, I've made up my mind to get a PS3.
There are many very simple reasons for this:
1) Nintendo have let me down badly last generation. The gamecube is devoid of platformers that aren't multi-platform and their exclusive platformers aren't very good (Mario Sunshine isn't anywhere near Mario64). The massive drought of good games as well and few JapRPGs means I'm jumping ship.
2) The X-Box hasn't impressed me in the slightest, having a whopping two exclusive games that I would want and haven't been ported (Ninja Gaiden and Panzer Dragoon Orta). Lack of good platformers (all exclusive X-Box platformers suck without exception) and no decent JapRPGs.
3) The PS3 will have the games I missed out on (Due to PS2 reverse compatibility, so I can get Disgaea and the other games I missed out on to play). It will have new games that I want, namely platformers, wierd experimental games and the Japanese RPGs that I enjoy.
As a result, I don't care how powerful the console is. I really don't. The games I play (platformers, JapRPGs) really don't need huge amounts of horsepower to get the basic gameplay right. So long as the console I want gets the games I want it's irrelevant to me how much power it has over the competition. More horsepower doesn't make a console better, the games are the only thing that matters.
Quite frankly, with my taste in games I don't see Nintendo or Microsoft getting anywhere near Sony. Sony, simply put, has the 3rd party development support that gets the games I want to play (nintendo has none and microsoft doesn't attract many Japanese developers)
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->That has been since beaten by halo2, but it does show you that on the whole, you dont need a full-network like xbox live, gamers go where the good games are.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
QuaunautThe longest seven days in history...Join Date: 2003-03-21Member: 14759Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
<!--QuoteBegin-Rapier7+Jun 25 2005, 08:46 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Rapier7 @ Jun 25 2005, 08:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Quaunaut, no, you're wrong. The Cell will be very similar to Microsoft's 3 core Xenon processor. When it comes to regular tasks (running intensive applications), the MS core will beat the Cell. When it comes to doing specific tasks and dividing it up for its 7 subcores to execute, then the Cell will beat the Xenon.
Read the strengths/weakness (there's no real weakness in the general multi-use Xenon) of each processor's architecture before you start touting one around like a fanboy who got caught up by the PR hype.
Edit:
Regarding Cell's architecture, it's been the subject of heated criticism from Intel, the world's leading chip manufacturer. The concept itself is ahead of its time, but that doesn't mean it's a good chip for now. It's built on a 90 nm process, Intel has a Cell-like processor on its roadmap, but that will be built on a much smaller, more efficient 32 nm process and won't be due for another DECADE.
Again, be informed before being arrogant like myself.
It'll be interesting with the GPUs, though. ATi's already showing weakness in their discrete graphics card sector, R520 has been delayed and the 7800GTX is already out in volume. This could mean fabrication problems, a problem in architecture, or both, which means LOSE for ATi. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Uh, I'm pretty informed man. I've been talking to people who are handling the hardware on a daily basis. And where are you getting your info? 3rd parties? Right. Same place as me. Try not being arrogant at all, Rapier, before you try to be arrogant.
<!--QuoteBegin-Quaunaut+Jun 26 2005, 12:12 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Quaunaut @ Jun 26 2005, 12:12 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Uh, I'm pretty informed man. I've been talking to people who are handling the hardware on a daily basis. And where are you getting your info? 3rd parties? Right. Same place as me. Try not being arrogant at all, Rapier, before you try to be arrogant. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You do know you're going to have to back that up, right?
Yeah....how many times have I said this so far? I want a console, not a computer. I want games on my console that can really only be played on consoles, meaning they 1. are party games, 2. require peripherals, or 3. work a lot better with a controller than with a keyboard/mouse. When I buy a console, I'm looking at the games; I really don't give a damn what's inside the thing, and I doubt most consumers do (because they don't understand it anyway). All this talk of which console is more powerful than the others, or what kind of ultra-uber-1337 processors this one or that one's going to have, it's just a lot of hot air. Judging a system based solely on its hardware is flat out dumb, because in the end it doesn't matter how good the hardware is if the software sucks.
<!--QuoteBegin-Aegeri+Jun 26 2005, 12:05 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Aegeri @ Jun 26 2005, 12:05 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Disgaea <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh why did you have to mention that game, now I have to get my PS2 back from my friend's house and play it again <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Gadzuko+Jun 26 2005, 01:56 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Gadzuko @ Jun 26 2005, 01:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Aegeri+Jun 26 2005, 12:05 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Aegeri @ Jun 26 2005, 12:05 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Disgaea <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh why did you have to mention that game, now I have to get my PS2 back from my friend's house and play it again <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I have to wait until I get a PS3 until I can play it <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> I have no PS2 at all.
LikuI, am the Somberlain.Join Date: 2003-01-10Member: 12128Members
<!--QuoteBegin-TommyVercetti+Jun 25 2005, 04:24 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TommyVercetti @ Jun 25 2005, 04:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The only reason I would buy a console is if I was poor... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You just said: <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Also, the combined cost of all those consoles and their accessories and games is going to bankrupt you, unless you're a rich white kid.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A guy from nVidia gave us some info about the Cell processor as part of his lecture in one of my classes during the spring. Also, I have a BS in computer engineering as well as completing the reqs for one in Computer Science, so I've designed a couple chips.
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
<!--QuoteBegin-Gwahir+Jun 25 2005, 08:44 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Gwahir @ Jun 25 2005, 08:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> you know, people say the cell has so many processors in it, and they're right, but they don't know the nature of those processors and the memory architecture as to how they're set up.
the vast majority of those processors are small stream processors directly hooked up to their own very small memory, they can't share that memory directly. Now this is still an amazing chip, but it requires better programming and a proper understanding of its workings to take advantage of it. It's like sticking a whole bunch of programmable graphics chips right next to the primary core.
So before you go around toting it has 8 p4s in one chip, think again.
One more thing, the pipeline for the primary core is HUGE! This means that the clock speed will be high (don't be fooled by clock speed), but that if there is a branch misprediction (common) that the branch fault penalty will be that much higher. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm wondering if branch prediction will be an emphasized part of the cell. With architecture that parallel I wouldn't be surprised if they sent off both branches and just picked the correct one.
<!--QuoteBegin-Quaunaut+Jun 25 2005, 09:49 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Quaunaut @ Jun 25 2005, 09:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> ...Also, what is this list of games you're all eagerly waiting for when it comes to the 360 and Revolution? ... and only one title has barely been announced for the Rev as far as I know....
Also, as a small sidenote question: Will rare games be available on the Revolution? Say, could I download(for a price, of course) Chrono Trigger, or Final Fantasy 2/4, or any of those games that are considered "Not so common"? Cause that would absolutely force me to stay with that console. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> <a href='http://www.gamespot.com/xbox360/action/deadrising/media.html' target='_blank'>Dead Rising</a> <a href='http://www.gamespot.com/xbox360/rpg/bluedragon/news_6124454.html' target='_blank'>Blue Dragon</a> <a href='http://www.gamespot.com/xbox360/action/gearsofwar/media.html' target='_blank'>Gears of War</a> <a href='http://www.gamespot.com/xbox360/action/deadoralive4/media.html' target='_blank'>Dead or Alive 4</a> <a href='http://www.gamespot.com/xbox360/action/framecitykiller/preview_6125673.html' target='_blank'>Frame City Killer</a> <a href='http://www.gamespot.com/xbox360/rpg/lostodyssey/preview_6125134.html' target='_blank'>Lost Odyssey</a> <a href='http://www.gamespot.com/xbox360/action/ninetyninenights/preview_6125069.html' target='_blank'>Ninety-Nine Nights</a> <a href='http://www.gamespot.com/xbox360/sports/topspin2/preview_6125741.html' target='_blank'>Top Spin</a>
I don't plan on buying an X-Box 360, maybe I will after the price goes down, but as of now all I'm planning on getting is Nintendo's Revolution.
They announced that it will launch with an online-compatible Super Smash Bros. sequel. All that I need to know is that it's a sequel to SSB, and that it's online, to get excited. I still play SSB:M often and that game's probably four years old. I can only imagine the replay value of it <i>online</i>. Also, I know that Nintendo is making games for Revolution, and as of now, Nintendo's one of my favorite developers. Based on this generation, I can also guess that Capcom and Sega are going to make games for it, and, well, I don't really care about much after that (I haven't liked Square since they became SquareEninx and produced the asstacular FFX, only good part of that game was that Rikku was a total babe). The only developer I'm going to miss will probably be Konami (DDR, Metal Gear Solid), and maybe Koei (but all it seems they like making are eighty spin-offs of Dynasty Warriors).
Also, any game Nintendo didn't publish needs to provide permission for sales of their games (and would probably recieve a comission). SquareEnix would have to let Nintendo sell the old Squaresoft games through their distribution service, which isn't guaranteed, as they might attempt re-making the old Final Fantasy games or Chrono Trigger.
<!--QuoteBegin-Quaunaut+Jun 26 2005, 12:12 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Quaunaut @ Jun 26 2005, 12:12 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Rapier7+Jun 25 2005, 08:46 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Rapier7 @ Jun 25 2005, 08:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Quaunaut, no, you're wrong. The Cell will be very similar to Microsoft's 3 core Xenon processor. When it comes to regular tasks (running intensive applications), the MS core will beat the Cell. When it comes to doing specific tasks and dividing it up for its 7 subcores to execute, then the Cell will beat the Xenon.
Read the strengths/weakness (there's no real weakness in the general multi-use Xenon) of each processor's architecture before you start touting one around like a fanboy who got caught up by the PR hype.
Edit:
Regarding Cell's architecture, it's been the subject of heated criticism from Intel, the world's leading chip manufacturer. The concept itself is ahead of its time, but that doesn't mean it's a good chip for now. It's built on a 90 nm process, Intel has a Cell-like processor on its roadmap, but that will be built on a much smaller, more efficient 32 nm process and won't be due for another DECADE.
Again, be informed before being arrogant like myself.
It'll be interesting with the GPUs, though. ATi's already showing weakness in their discrete graphics card sector, R520 has been delayed and the 7800GTX is already out in volume. This could mean fabrication problems, a problem in architecture, or both, which means LOSE for ATi. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Uh, I'm pretty informed man. I've been talking to people who are handling the hardware on a daily basis. And where are you getting your info? 3rd parties? Right. Same place as me. Try not being arrogant at all, Rapier, before you try to be arrogant. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, but I've provided informatino, you've just spouted nothing but, "I know what I'm talking about" without actually providing any information at all.
Oh, and I bet that Anandtech is better than what YOU use. Plus, you're defending the Cell architecture like it's the be-all end-all when I've just told you why it isn't. "8 2.4 ghz cores WILL beat your CPU any day of the week" or some crap like that, remember, 1 2.4 ghz PPC core with 7 subcores that can only execute certain types of code. General useage of the Cell is abysmal compared to even current desktop processors. Ahead of its time, but not good for the present.
Provide information if you want to be arrogant, I at least try to do so.
<!--QuoteBegin-moultano+Jun 26 2005, 04:36 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (moultano @ Jun 26 2005, 04:36 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm wondering if branch prediction will be an emphasized part of the cell. With architecture that parallel I wouldn't be surprised if they sent off both branches and just picked the correct one. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> what parallelism?
I was pretty sure there was 1 primary core, not 2. the others are not the same at all and must be reference specifically by the code. So yeah, branch prediction is not solved by that method.
Even if there were 2, that would mean that you're just copying the same code over to the other processor and essentially wasting that processor instead of allocating different work.
QuaunautThe longest seven days in history...Join Date: 2003-03-21Member: 14759Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
edited June 2005
<!--QuoteBegin-TommyVercetti+Jun 25 2005, 11:12 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TommyVercetti @ Jun 25 2005, 11:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Quaunaut+Jun 26 2005, 12:12 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Quaunaut @ Jun 26 2005, 12:12 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Uh, I'm pretty informed man. I've been talking to people who are handling the hardware on a daily basis. And where are you getting your info? 3rd parties? Right. Same place as me. Try not being arrogant at all, Rapier, before you try to be arrogant. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You do know you're going to have to back that up, right? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Why should I need to? I'll just say that they work at a team using the U3 engine. I won't be specific from there. They haven't provided much info anyway, they've only said things that generally say that the PS3 is a much more capable machine than the 360.
As to Rapier: So those extra processors can only get those types of code. Whats your point? Doesn't that worked damned well in the real world? Cause if it isn't gonna work well, then lets dismantle every army in the world for starters, then start tearing down the most succesful businesses in the world. If I'm not understanding it correctly, let me know, but from what I've seen, thats the smart way to do it. And no matter how you look at it Rapier, its more powerful than the 360! Saying the 360 has just as much power is like saying those Dell XPS desktops have just as much as a brand new alienware.
Oh, and I'm not sure if you've noticed, but the "For-sure" PS3 screenshots look loads better than those for the 360. Fight Night, anybody? Or with some of the examples given, I can honestly say that PC has nothing to worry about. Frame City Killer looks like utter crap(blurry stretched out textures, terrible use of bump mapping, bad color choices for character designs, oh, and Half-Life 1 quality weapon models), DoA4's graphics have improved...wait, no they haven't. At all. Though Ninety-Nine nights looks nice(nice job of drawing the people away from the blurry ground texture by having lots of really, REALLY nice looking models. No sarcasm there at all), Top Spin really makes me wonder where they got their folks, cause I see blurry textures all around, and chopped up shadows. Didn't see much of that on the PS3.
Regardless, I'm getting them all, I'm just saying that frankly, in terms of power, PS3 > XB360 easily.
LikuI, am the Somberlain.Join Date: 2003-01-10Member: 12128Members
<!--QuoteBegin-Align+Jun 26 2005, 12:25 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Align @ Jun 26 2005, 12:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Wait, wasn't the statement that the NR will have tons of old games available for download false? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I wouldn't think so when I heard it from the heads of Nintendo themselves on Gamespot.
<!--QuoteBegin-Align+Jun 26 2005, 02:25 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Align @ Jun 26 2005, 02:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Wait, wasn't the statement that the NR will have tons of old games available for download false? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> No, it was the rumor that downloading them would be free that was false.
LikuI, am the Somberlain.Join Date: 2003-01-10Member: 12128Members
<!--QuoteBegin-WaterBoy+Jun 26 2005, 12:34 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (WaterBoy @ Jun 26 2005, 12:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Wow, you guys a real tough, battling it out over internet forums and all... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Wow, you're pretty tough yourself, insulting over the internet and all...
Alright, let's call each other up and argue about this over the phone, because that would make our toughness a reality. GRRRR!
Would the downloadable games only be Pure Nintendo developed games? Or just anything that was on their systems?
<!--QuoteBegin-TommyVercetti+Jun 26 2005, 02:12 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TommyVercetti @ Jun 26 2005, 02:12 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Quaunaut+Jun 26 2005, 12:12 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Quaunaut @ Jun 26 2005, 12:12 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Uh, I'm pretty informed man. I've been talking to people who are handling the hardware on a daily basis. And where are you getting your info? 3rd parties? Right. Same place as me. Try not being arrogant at all, Rapier, before you try to be arrogant. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You do know you're going to have to back that up, right? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I believe theres no need for that.
Taking a look at Rapier's first line, he spelled Xeon as Xenon, and claimed it was made by Microsoft.
Also, most of all the cell processor documentation (from any source) has indicated that the cell is almost nothing like any existing x86 based architecture. The cell emphasizes parallel processing in stages, not single threads, or even multiple threads, but in essence a high performance "core" for every major aspect of what needs to be done.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm wondering if branch prediction will be an emphasized part of the cell. With architecture that parallel I wouldn't be surprised if they sent off both branches and just picked the correct one. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The SPEs of the Cell have no branch prediction. This is odd, because McSweeney (of Epic fame) plans on using it for physics processing in their upcoming Unreal engine. The reason why it is odd is because physics is branch heavy. The software will have to do the branch predictions.
And, Quauwhateverthefarkyourname is, you aren't providing any technical information at all. You're just making some random conjecture that supports your assertion, without checking if your guess is right or not. The two consoles will both sport multithreaded problems. Cell is one solution to multithreaded applications. The tri-cored Xenon is another solution. Both do have their strengths and weaknesses. Three multi-purposed general CPUs versus one multi-purpose CPU and 7 single-purposed CPUs can be a close call that will swing both ways. Both keep multithreading in mind, but they have different approaches to it.
I don't see what all the hype is, current generation desktop CPUs are already more powerful than both the Cell and the Xenons, but many rabid fanboys are declaring the end of computer gaming and basking in the hype of Sony.
And on a completely unrelated note, Quauwhateverthefark, when it comes down to price/performance, Dell XPS beats Alienware hands down in terms of gaming. In terms of absolute fastest performance, you're better off building the damn computer yourself and STILL saving cash than if you bought an Alienware.
Frankly, it just seems that you're just another ignorant fanboy lost in the shuffle.
<!--QuoteBegin-Liku+Jun 26 2005, 02:39 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Liku @ Jun 26 2005, 02:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-WaterBoy+Jun 26 2005, 12:34 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (WaterBoy @ Jun 26 2005, 12:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Wow, you guys a real tough, battling it out over internet forums and all... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wow, you're pretty tough yourself, insulting over the internet and all...
Alright, let's call each other up and argue about this over the phone, because that would make our toughness a reality. GRRRR!
Would the downloadable games only be Pure Nintendo developed games? Or just anything that was on their systems? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> From the start, only Nintendo (and Rare) developed games, but companies like Capcom/Konami/SquareEnix can have their old games sold via the download system, as well, if they like.
EDIT: Speaking of Rare, was I the only freaked out by the <a href='http://www.consoleclassix.com/info_img/RC_Pro_AM_NES_ScreenShot1.jpg' target='_blank'>RC Pro-AM</a> title screen as a kid? Still gives me the heebie-jeebies.
Alcapwn"War is the science of destruction" - John AbbotJoin Date: 2003-06-21Member: 17590Members
<!--QuoteBegin-Liku+Jun 26 2005, 02:39 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Liku @ Jun 26 2005, 02:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-WaterBoy+Jun 26 2005, 12:34 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (WaterBoy @ Jun 26 2005, 12:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Wow, you guys a real tough, battling it out over internet forums and all... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wow, you're pretty tough yourself, insulting over the internet and all...
Alright, let's call each other up and argue about this over the phone, because that would make our toughness a reality. GRRRR!
Would the downloadable games only be Pure Nintendo developed games? Or just anything that was on their systems? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You get insulted to easily... <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
LikuI, am the Somberlain.Join Date: 2003-01-10Member: 12128Members
<!--QuoteBegin-WaterBoy+Jun 26 2005, 01:08 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (WaterBoy @ Jun 26 2005, 01:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You get insulted to easily... <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You know it! <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Edit: SSB:M? Pffft... Super smash brothers for the 64 works perfectly fine for me. Who needs purdy graphics when the excellent gameplay is there?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I prefer Melee's graphics and faster/much better gameplay/better selection of characters over the original. Not that they original's bad, just's boring when you've been blessed by Melee.
Comments
Read the strengths/weakness (there's no real weakness in the general multi-use Xenon) of each processor's architecture before you start touting one around like a fanboy who got caught up by the PR hype.
Edit:
Regarding Cell's architecture, it's been the subject of heated criticism from Intel, the world's leading chip manufacturer. The concept itself is ahead of its time, but that doesn't mean it's a good chip for now. It's built on a 90 nm process, Intel has a Cell-like processor on its roadmap, but that will be built on a much smaller, more efficient 32 nm process and won't be due for another DECADE.
Again, be informed before being arrogant like myself.
It'll be interesting with the GPUs, though. ATi's already showing weakness in their discrete graphics card sector, R520 has been delayed and the 7800GTX is already out in volume. This could mean fabrication problems, a problem in architecture, or both, which means LOSE for ATi.
A monopoly in the console market would kill innovation and good games as we know them. So you better pray no one ever maintains one; not even the PC will be safe.
A network isn't all you need, and a monoply is never gaurenteed, especially with brand loyalties and whatnot.
But the point of this post is this:
That big computery thing (the ps3 dev kit) looks awesome and I want one.
That is all. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
That has been since beaten by halo2, but it does show you that on the whole, you dont need a full-network like xbox live, gamers go where the good games are.
There are many very simple reasons for this:
1) Nintendo have let me down badly last generation. The gamecube is devoid of platformers that aren't multi-platform and their exclusive platformers aren't very good (Mario Sunshine isn't anywhere near Mario64). The massive drought of good games as well and few JapRPGs means I'm jumping ship.
2) The X-Box hasn't impressed me in the slightest, having a whopping two exclusive games that I would want and haven't been ported (Ninja Gaiden and Panzer Dragoon Orta). Lack of good platformers (all exclusive X-Box platformers suck without exception) and no decent JapRPGs.
3) The PS3 will have the games I missed out on (Due to PS2 reverse compatibility, so I can get Disgaea and the other games I missed out on to play). It will have new games that I want, namely platformers, wierd experimental games and the Japanese RPGs that I enjoy.
As a result, I don't care how powerful the console is. I really don't. The games I play (platformers, JapRPGs) really don't need huge amounts of horsepower to get the basic gameplay right. So long as the console I want gets the games I want it's irrelevant to me how much power it has over the competition. More horsepower doesn't make a console better, the games are the only thing that matters.
Quite frankly, with my taste in games I don't see Nintendo or Microsoft getting anywhere near Sony. Sony, simply put, has the 3rd party development support that gets the games I want to play (nintendo has none and microsoft doesn't attract many Japanese developers)
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->That has been since beaten by halo2, but it does show you that on the whole, you dont need a full-network like xbox live, gamers go where the good games are.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly.
Read the strengths/weakness (there's no real weakness in the general multi-use Xenon) of each processor's architecture before you start touting one around like a fanboy who got caught up by the PR hype.
Edit:
Regarding Cell's architecture, it's been the subject of heated criticism from Intel, the world's leading chip manufacturer. The concept itself is ahead of its time, but that doesn't mean it's a good chip for now. It's built on a 90 nm process, Intel has a Cell-like processor on its roadmap, but that will be built on a much smaller, more efficient 32 nm process and won't be due for another DECADE.
Again, be informed before being arrogant like myself.
It'll be interesting with the GPUs, though. ATi's already showing weakness in their discrete graphics card sector, R520 has been delayed and the 7800GTX is already out in volume. This could mean fabrication problems, a problem in architecture, or both, which means LOSE for ATi. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Uh, I'm pretty informed man. I've been talking to people who are handling the hardware on a daily basis. And where are you getting your info? 3rd parties? Right. Same place as me. Try not being arrogant at all, Rapier, before you try to be arrogant.
You do know you're going to have to back that up, right?
Oh why did you have to mention that game, now I have to get my PS2 back from my friend's house and play it again <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Oh why did you have to mention that game, now I have to get my PS2 back from my friend's house and play it again <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have to wait until I get a PS3 until I can play it <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> I have no PS2 at all.
You just said:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Also, the combined cost of all those consoles and their accessories and games is going to bankrupt you, unless you're a rich white kid.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A guy from nVidia gave us some info about the Cell processor as part of his lecture in one of my classes during the spring.
Also, I have a BS in computer engineering as well as completing the reqs for one in Computer Science, so I've designed a couple chips.
the vast majority of those processors are small stream processors directly hooked up to their own very small memory, they can't share that memory directly. Now this is still an amazing chip, but it requires better programming and a proper understanding of its workings to take advantage of it. It's like sticking a whole bunch of programmable graphics chips right next to the primary core.
So before you go around toting it has 8 p4s in one chip, think again.
One more thing, the pipeline for the primary core is HUGE!
This means that the clock speed will be high (don't be fooled by clock speed), but that if there is a branch misprediction (common) that the branch fault penalty will be that much higher. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm wondering if branch prediction will be an emphasized part of the cell. With architecture that parallel I wouldn't be surprised if they sent off both branches and just picked the correct one.
Also, as a small sidenote question: Will rare games be available on the Revolution? Say, could I download(for a price, of course) Chrono Trigger, or Final Fantasy 2/4, or any of those games that are considered "Not so common"? Cause that would absolutely force me to stay with that console. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href='http://www.gamespot.com/xbox360/action/deadrising/media.html' target='_blank'>Dead Rising</a>
<a href='http://www.gamespot.com/xbox360/rpg/bluedragon/news_6124454.html' target='_blank'>Blue Dragon</a>
<a href='http://www.gamespot.com/xbox360/action/gearsofwar/media.html' target='_blank'>Gears of War</a>
<a href='http://www.gamespot.com/xbox360/action/deadoralive4/media.html' target='_blank'>Dead or Alive 4</a>
<a href='http://www.gamespot.com/xbox360/action/framecitykiller/preview_6125673.html' target='_blank'>Frame City Killer</a>
<a href='http://www.gamespot.com/xbox360/rpg/lostodyssey/preview_6125134.html' target='_blank'>Lost Odyssey</a>
<a href='http://www.gamespot.com/xbox360/action/ninetyninenights/preview_6125069.html' target='_blank'>Ninety-Nine Nights</a>
<a href='http://www.gamespot.com/xbox360/sports/topspin2/preview_6125741.html' target='_blank'>Top Spin</a>
I don't plan on buying an X-Box 360, maybe I will after the price goes down, but as of now all I'm planning on getting is Nintendo's Revolution.
They announced that it will launch with an online-compatible Super Smash Bros. sequel. All that I need to know is that it's a sequel to SSB, and that it's online, to get excited. I still play SSB:M often and that game's probably four years old. I can only imagine the replay value of it <i>online</i>. Also, I know that Nintendo is making games for Revolution, and as of now, Nintendo's one of my favorite developers. Based on this generation, I can also guess that Capcom and Sega are going to make games for it, and, well, I don't really care about much after that (I haven't liked Square since they became SquareEninx and produced the asstacular FFX, only good part of that game was that Rikku was a total babe). The only developer I'm going to miss will probably be Konami (DDR, Metal Gear Solid), and maybe Koei (but all it seems they like making are eighty spin-offs of Dynasty Warriors).
Also, any game Nintendo didn't publish needs to provide permission for sales of their games (and would probably recieve a comission). SquareEnix would have to let Nintendo sell the old Squaresoft games through their distribution service, which isn't guaranteed, as they might attempt re-making the old Final Fantasy games or Chrono Trigger.
Edit: SSB:M? Pffft... Super smash brothers for the 64 works perfectly fine for me. Who needs purdy graphics when the excellent gameplay is there?
Read the strengths/weakness (there's no real weakness in the general multi-use Xenon) of each processor's architecture before you start touting one around like a fanboy who got caught up by the PR hype.
Edit:
Regarding Cell's architecture, it's been the subject of heated criticism from Intel, the world's leading chip manufacturer. The concept itself is ahead of its time, but that doesn't mean it's a good chip for now. It's built on a 90 nm process, Intel has a Cell-like processor on its roadmap, but that will be built on a much smaller, more efficient 32 nm process and won't be due for another DECADE.
Again, be informed before being arrogant like myself.
It'll be interesting with the GPUs, though. ATi's already showing weakness in their discrete graphics card sector, R520 has been delayed and the 7800GTX is already out in volume. This could mean fabrication problems, a problem in architecture, or both, which means LOSE for ATi. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Uh, I'm pretty informed man. I've been talking to people who are handling the hardware on a daily basis. And where are you getting your info? 3rd parties? Right. Same place as me. Try not being arrogant at all, Rapier, before you try to be arrogant. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, but I've provided informatino, you've just spouted nothing but, "I know what I'm talking about" without actually providing any information at all.
Oh, and I bet that Anandtech is better than what YOU use. Plus, you're defending the Cell architecture like it's the be-all end-all when I've just told you why it isn't. "8 2.4 ghz cores WILL beat your CPU any day of the week" or some crap like that, remember, 1 2.4 ghz PPC core with 7 subcores that can only execute certain types of code. General useage of the Cell is abysmal compared to even current desktop processors. Ahead of its time, but not good for the present.
Provide information if you want to be arrogant, I at least try to do so.
I'm wondering if branch prediction will be an emphasized part of the cell. With architecture that parallel I wouldn't be surprised if they sent off both branches and just picked the correct one. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
what parallelism?
I was pretty sure there was 1 primary core, not 2.
the others are not the same at all and must be reference specifically by the code.
So yeah, branch prediction is not solved by that method.
Even if there were 2, that would mean that you're just copying the same code over to the other processor and essentially wasting that processor instead of allocating different work.
You do know you're going to have to back that up, right? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why should I need to? I'll just say that they work at a team using the U3 engine. I won't be specific from there. They haven't provided much info anyway, they've only said things that generally say that the PS3 is a much more capable machine than the 360.
As to Rapier: So those extra processors can only get those types of code. Whats your point? Doesn't that worked damned well in the real world? Cause if it isn't gonna work well, then lets dismantle every army in the world for starters, then start tearing down the most succesful businesses in the world. If I'm not understanding it correctly, let me know, but from what I've seen, thats the smart way to do it. And no matter how you look at it Rapier, its more powerful than the 360! Saying the 360 has just as much power is like saying those Dell XPS desktops have just as much as a brand new alienware.
Oh, and I'm not sure if you've noticed, but the "For-sure" PS3 screenshots look loads better than those for the 360. Fight Night, anybody? Or with some of the examples given, I can honestly say that PC has nothing to worry about. Frame City Killer looks like utter crap(blurry stretched out textures, terrible use of bump mapping, bad color choices for character designs, oh, and Half-Life 1 quality weapon models), DoA4's graphics have improved...wait, no they haven't. At all. Though Ninety-Nine nights looks nice(nice job of drawing the people away from the blurry ground texture by having lots of really, REALLY nice looking models. No sarcasm there at all), Top Spin really makes me wonder where they got their folks, cause I see blurry textures all around, and chopped up shadows. Didn't see much of that on the PS3.
Regardless, I'm getting them all, I'm just saying that frankly, in terms of power, PS3 > XB360 easily.
I wouldn't think so when I heard it from the heads of Nintendo themselves on Gamespot.
No, it was the rumor that downloading them would be free that was false.
Wow, you're pretty tough yourself, insulting over the internet and all...
Alright, let's call each other up and argue about this over the phone, because that would make our toughness a reality. GRRRR!
Would the downloadable games only be Pure Nintendo developed games? Or just anything that was on their systems?
You do know you're going to have to back that up, right? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I believe theres no need for that.
Taking a look at Rapier's first line, he spelled Xeon as Xenon, and claimed it was made by Microsoft.
Also, most of all the cell processor documentation (from any source) has indicated that the cell is almost nothing like any existing x86 based architecture. The cell emphasizes parallel processing in stages, not single threads, or even multiple threads, but in essence a high performance "core" for every major aspect of what needs to be done.
I'm wondering if branch prediction will be an emphasized part of the cell. With architecture that parallel I wouldn't be surprised if they sent off both branches and just picked the correct one.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The SPEs of the Cell have no branch prediction. This is odd, because McSweeney (of Epic fame) plans on using it for physics processing in their upcoming Unreal engine. The reason why it is odd is because physics is branch heavy. The software will have to do the branch predictions.
And, Quauwhateverthefarkyourname is, you aren't providing any technical information at all. You're just making some random conjecture that supports your assertion, without checking if your guess is right or not. The two consoles will both sport multithreaded problems. Cell is one solution to multithreaded applications. The tri-cored Xenon is another solution. Both do have their strengths and weaknesses. Three multi-purposed general CPUs versus one multi-purpose CPU and 7 single-purposed CPUs can be a close call that will swing both ways. Both keep multithreading in mind, but they have different approaches to it.
I don't see what all the hype is, current generation desktop CPUs are already more powerful than both the Cell and the Xenons, but many rabid fanboys are declaring the end of computer gaming and basking in the hype of Sony.
And on a completely unrelated note, Quauwhateverthefark, when it comes down to price/performance, Dell XPS beats Alienware hands down in terms of gaming. In terms of absolute fastest performance, you're better off building the damn computer yourself and STILL saving cash than if you bought an Alienware.
Frankly, it just seems that you're just another ignorant fanboy lost in the shuffle.
Wow, you're pretty tough yourself, insulting over the internet and all...
Alright, let's call each other up and argue about this over the phone, because that would make our toughness a reality. GRRRR!
Would the downloadable games only be Pure Nintendo developed games? Or just anything that was on their systems? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
From the start, only Nintendo (and Rare) developed games, but companies like Capcom/Konami/SquareEnix can have their old games sold via the download system, as well, if they like.
EDIT: Speaking of Rare, was I the only freaked out by the <a href='http://www.consoleclassix.com/info_img/RC_Pro_AM_NES_ScreenShot1.jpg' target='_blank'>RC Pro-AM</a> title screen as a kid? Still gives me the heebie-jeebies.
Wow, you're pretty tough yourself, insulting over the internet and all...
Alright, let's call each other up and argue about this over the phone, because that would make our toughness a reality. GRRRR!
Would the downloadable games only be Pure Nintendo developed games? Or just anything that was on their systems? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You get insulted to easily... <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
You know it!
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Edit: SSB:M? Pffft... Super smash brothers for the 64 works perfectly fine for me. Who needs purdy graphics when the excellent gameplay is there?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I prefer Melee's graphics and faster/much better gameplay/better selection of characters over the original. Not that they original's bad, just's boring when you've been blessed by Melee.