Maybe those who say that religion/worldview/whatever shouldn't be allowed to be brought up are right. Seems like it's just too close to people's hearts to try and look at objectively or joke about, and we're always going to come to blows over it.
Did you read the Dawkins article? Why should religion be any closer to our hearts than our political orientation or what we think about politics? There's no reason.
<!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Did you read the Dawkins article? Why should religion be any closer to our hearts than our political orientation or what we think about politics? There's no reason.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, I read the article. But in the end, belief's closer to the heart because it's such a personal thing, and it's closely entwined with how you see the world. It's spiritual. Politics is a purely earthly affair.
<!--QuoteBegin-Gwahir+Jul 18 2005, 05:10 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Gwahir @ Jul 18 2005, 05:10 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> you won't listen to anything I say so I'll let everyone else consider it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I won't? How do you know that?
lol, you said affair <img src='http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v472/Tsaiyao/DoomAnimation-5.gif' border='0' alt='user posted image' /> now watch the doom 2 guy battle imps and hell knights
<!--QuoteBegin-Gwahir+Jul 18 2005, 12:10 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Gwahir @ Jul 18 2005, 12:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> nadagast, you are my evidence.
you won't listen to anything I say so I'll let everyone else consider it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word 'darkness' on the walls of his cell."<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The difference is that the existence of the sun cannot be questionned. God only has glory if you believe in him.
It's just like saying "A man can no more give glory to a god by worshipping him than a lunatic can turn on the light by drawing a lightbulb on the walls of his cell"
The problem is, here, that it seems many interpret "different beliefs" for "hate." I don't believe in the Bible, but I don't disrespect my father because he does. That doesn't stop me to laugh at that picture in the same way I laugh at french-bashing jokes.
<!--QuoteBegin-Quaunaut+Jul 18 2005, 06:52 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Quaunaut @ Jul 18 2005, 06:52 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> screw it <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> ehm? how about: lets bash the bible because some people believe just a little too much in it?
you cant just edit out of this ! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
There's a difference between bashing the Bible, and bashing someones beliefs. If I bash anal sex, I'm not bashing **** people am I?
Unfortunately, that sticker reflects the views of many non-Christians. While I can understand why some would be offended by it, it is not MEANT to be offensive. I believe that the artist created it as a humourous effort, and if you don't find it funny, that's your right.
(offtopic)This is the part where I bust out my personal weapon against christians, Genesis 19:8. Read it!
<!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+Jul 18 2005, 06:05 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Jul 18 2005, 06:05 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Gwahir+Jul 18 2005, 05:10 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Gwahir @ Jul 18 2005, 05:10 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> you won't listen to anything I say so I'll let everyone else consider it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I won't? How do you know that? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well it seems to be the case. So I see his point.
My Favorite Brick Testament; <a href='http://www.thebricktestament.com/genesis/the_covenant/gn17_01-03.html' target='_blank'>The Covenant</a>
cereal, that's the whole point of the quote, he does still have glory even if you don't believe in him. Your statement is akin to saying that someone doesn't exist if I don't think they do. So... I don't think Flayra exists... poof.. there goes the forums and ns. I don't expect everyone to belive that God exists, but if you believe in tolerance and go around preaching it, why do I have to play the defensive role here?
I'm out of the thread, nothing is actually being considered.
I still don't think the quote is meaningful in anyway. God still has glory even if I don't believe in him? Not in my eyes he doesn't. Does Santa Claus have glory? <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Cold Nite: He hasn't given me anything to listen to... other than a quote which... doesn't advance this conversation. At all. Tell me something or ask me something before you say I'm closed minded, ok? <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Cold-Nite's link is awesome. I'm hoping that that's the full text of the Bible on there, and that 1/3 of my summer reading assignment just got a LOT easier.
I actually have to agree with some of the people in here. While I don't find the image that ammusing, some people do need to grow thicker skins. I do think there is somewhat of a double standard on these forums though where you're not supposed to make fun of ethnic background, sexual orientation, etc, but if someone's a Christian then oh boy, lets all flame them.
The Bible does say that Christians will be persecuted for their beliefs so it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone who has read the Bible.
<!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+Jul 18 2005, 05:02 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Jul 18 2005, 05:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> MedHead you're making a serious oversight when comparing religion bashing to sexuality/race/whatever. A religion is an idea, and like any other it can be challenged and questioned. This is good and <b>normal</b>. Sexuality or race aren't ideas they are simply how you're born. Bashing an idea and bashing a way someone is born are two very different things.
Skorpion: <a href='http://www.simonyi.ox.ac.uk/dawkins/WorldOfDawkins-archive/Dawkins/Work/Articles/2001-09time_to_stand_up.shtml' target='_blank'>http://www.simonyi.ox.ac.uk/dawkins/WorldO..._stand_up.shtml</a> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I asked for hard references, not more juvenile rhetoric!
Why is it bad to criticise religion? Because there are more important things in the world than being right. That's something I'm starting to realise lately. Religion isn't rational, and it doesn't need to be. That doesn't mean it should be dismantled and discredited. It means something important to a lot of people, and there's <i>nothing wrong with that</i>.
The one major proviso, which is "as long as it doesn't affect other people". As soon as people use religion for political gain, or to justify atrocities, then the power structure of the organisation needs to be re-examined. That kind of corruption is a factor of <i>any</i> kind of organisation, not merely religious ones.
But getting back to my main point, if I understand it correctly your argument boils down to "there is a right way to think, and religion is not it. Therefore everyone who believes in religion must be made to see that they are wrong, because they are wrong". That's counterproductive and pointless; besides the fact that people should be allowed to believe whatever they like (aforementioned proviso included).
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Sexuality or race aren't ideas they are simply how you're born. Bashing an idea and bashing a way someone is born are two very different things.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Surely you don't mean to say that the only factor that should bar the way of racism and sexual discrimination is "they're born that way, they can't help it"?
<!--QuoteBegin-waiting+Jul 18 2005, 09:53 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (waiting @ Jul 18 2005, 09:53 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I like how this thread turned into BulletHead's place for crappy images. gg clot <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> If you noticed, I'm bashing myself if it's a bash <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
omg the bible is full of handjobs <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Mr JeburtO+Jul 18 2005, 07:37 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mr JeburtO @ Jul 18 2005, 07:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> omg the bible is full of handjobs <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> And so this thread does actually have a purpose, thank you <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Drfuzzy+Jul 18 2005, 12:17 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Drfuzzy @ Jul 18 2005, 12:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Doc if your going to have that as your avitar you might as well animate it!
<img src='http://www.hosting.nsagames.com/drfuzzy/pic/whatislove.gif' border='0' alt='user posted image' /> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I can't resize it without it losing it's greatness <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Moniker+Jul 18 2005, 02:46 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Moniker @ Jul 18 2005, 02:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> (offtopic)This is the part where I bust out my personal weapon against christians, Genesis 19:8. Read it! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin-Genesis 19:8+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Genesis 19:8)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would like to extend my gratitude to the mod who temp banned certain people with a certain spoiler in their sigs about a certain extremely popular book.
<!--QuoteBegin-Shzar+Jul 18 2005, 06:06 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Shzar @ Jul 18 2005, 06:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I would like to extend my gratitude to the mod who temp banned certain people with a certain spoiler in their sigs about a certain extremely popular book. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> <img src='http://another-world.org.uk/spacer/crybaby.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
Comments
you won't listen to anything I say so I'll let everyone else consider it.
Yeah, I read the article. But in the end, belief's closer to the heart because it's such a personal thing, and it's closely entwined with how you see the world. It's spiritual. Politics is a purely earthly affair.
I won't? How do you know that?
<img src='http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v472/Tsaiyao/DoomAnimation-5.gif' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
now watch the doom 2 guy battle imps and hell knights
you won't listen to anything I say so I'll let everyone else consider it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word 'darkness' on the walls of his cell."<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The difference is that the existence of the sun cannot be questionned. God only has glory if you believe in him.
It's just like saying "A man can no more give glory to a god by worshipping him than a lunatic can turn on the light by drawing a lightbulb on the walls of his cell"
The problem is, here, that it seems many interpret "different beliefs" for "hate."
I don't believe in the Bible, but I don't disrespect my father because he does. That doesn't stop me to laugh at that picture in the same way I laugh at french-bashing jokes.
ehm? how about: lets bash the bible because some people believe just a little too much in it?
you cant just edit out of this ! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
There's a difference between bashing the Bible, and bashing someones beliefs. If I bash anal sex, I'm not bashing **** people am I?
Unfortunately, that sticker reflects the views of many non-Christians. While I can understand why some would be offended by it, it is not MEANT to be offensive. I believe that the artist created it as a humourous effort, and if you don't find it funny, that's your right.
(offtopic)This is the part where I bust out my personal weapon against christians, Genesis 19:8. Read it!
I won't? How do you know that? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well it seems to be the case. So I see his point.
My Favorite Brick Testament; <a href='http://www.thebricktestament.com/genesis/the_covenant/gn17_01-03.html' target='_blank'>The Covenant</a>
<img src='http://www.thebricktestament.com/genesis/the_covenant/gn18_15a.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
<img src='http://www.thebricktestament.com/genesis/the_covenant/gn18_15b.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
Rawr, the Lord of Hosts does not taking being laughed at by old women lightly!
I'm out of the thread, nothing is actually being considered.
oh, and Cold Nite gets a point.
Sorry?
I still don't think the quote is meaningful in anyway. God still has glory even if I don't believe in him? Not in my eyes he doesn't. Does Santa Claus have glory? <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Cold Nite: He hasn't given me anything to listen to... other than a quote which... doesn't advance this conversation. At all. Tell me something or ask me something before you say I'm closed minded, ok? <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
The Bible does say that Christians will be persecuted for their beliefs so it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone who has read the Bible.
Skorpion: <a href='http://www.simonyi.ox.ac.uk/dawkins/WorldOfDawkins-archive/Dawkins/Work/Articles/2001-09time_to_stand_up.shtml' target='_blank'>http://www.simonyi.ox.ac.uk/dawkins/WorldO..._stand_up.shtml</a> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I asked for hard references, not more juvenile rhetoric!
Why is it bad to criticise religion? Because there are more important things in the world than being right. That's something I'm starting to realise lately. Religion isn't rational, and it doesn't need to be. That doesn't mean it should be dismantled and discredited. It means something important to a lot of people, and there's <i>nothing wrong with that</i>.
The one major proviso, which is "as long as it doesn't affect other people". As soon as people use religion for political gain, or to justify atrocities, then the power structure of the organisation needs to be re-examined. That kind of corruption is a factor of <i>any</i> kind of organisation, not merely religious ones.
But getting back to my main point, if I understand it correctly your argument boils down to "there is a right way to think, and religion is not it. Therefore everyone who believes in religion must be made to see that they are wrong, because they are wrong". That's counterproductive and pointless; besides the fact that people should be allowed to believe whatever they like (aforementioned proviso included).
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Sexuality or race aren't ideas they are simply how you're born. Bashing an idea and bashing a way someone is born are two very different things.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Surely you don't mean to say that the only factor that should bar the way of racism and sexual discrimination is "they're born that way, they can't help it"?
<img src='http://www.hosting.nsagames.com/drfuzzy/pic/whatislove.gif' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
If you noticed, I'm bashing myself if it's a bash <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<img src='http://www.thebricktestament.com/genesis/last_days_of_abraham/gn24_09.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
Omg Jeburto that's nothing. Read Sodom and Gomorrah.
<a href='http://www.thebricktestament.com/genesis/sodom_and_gomorrah/gn19_01.html' target='_blank'>Sodom and Gomorrah.</a>
Prepare to be violated. Cause this is a town of men bent on rape.
And so this thread does actually have a purpose, thank you <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
rofl
Omg Jeburto that's nothing. Read Sodom and Gomorrah.
<a href='http://www.thebricktestament.com/genesis/sodom_and_gomorrah/gn19_01.html' target='_blank'>Sodom and Gomorrah.</a>
Prepare to be violated. Cause this is a town of men bent on rape. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
O'dearie
<img src='http://www.hosting.nsagames.com/drfuzzy/pic/whatislove.gif' border='0' alt='user posted image' /> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can't resize it without it losing it's greatness <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Genesis 19:8+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Genesis 19:8)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have no idea what that says.
<img src='http://another-world.org.uk/spacer/crybaby.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />