Regarding the 3.2 balance

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Comments

  • CxwfCxwf Join Date: 2003-02-05 Member: 13168Members, Constellation
    Eh, I think the Fade's fine as it is. The Onos is a little underpowered though, and Celerity Lerks could use a slight nudge in speed. And the alien 3-Hive game could use a bit of work--maybe more powerful Xenocide?

    But pretty good balance overall.
  • vmsvms Join Date: 2005-06-15 Member: 53927Members
    edited December 2006
    <!--quoteo(post=1591387:date=Dec 22 2006, 05:16 PM:name=ZiGGY)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ZiGGY @ Dec 22 2006, 05:16 PM) [snapback]1591387[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
    stop replying too fast vms <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> I jacked up my post with a lot of ramblings for your reading pleasure anyways <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
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    ;p cant find anything to do so im monitoring the forum 24/7
    Anyway the game is balanced fine its just that to be an efficient fade you have to take carapace/celerity/focus and i want some other upgrades to be viable too for the sake off variety and fun.
  • DoppyDoppy Join Date: 2006-11-15 Member: 58624Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    <!--quoteo(post=1591380:date=Dec 22 2006, 02:02 PM:name=vms)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(vms @ Dec 22 2006, 02:02 PM) [snapback]1591380[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
    Agreed 3.2 is in no way worse than any other version
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    Are you kidding me? End game Onos ###### sucks, it's WAY too easy for a Marine team with LMGs to take down a few Onos, much to easy. They're not worth their res cost anymore. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" />
  • vmsvms Join Date: 2005-06-15 Member: 53927Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1591432:date=Dec 22 2006, 07:32 PM:name=Doppy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Doppy @ Dec 22 2006, 07:32 PM) [snapback]1591432[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
    Are you kidding me? End game Onos ###### sucks, it's WAY too easy for a Marine team with LMGs to take down a few Onos, much to easy. They're not worth their res cost anymore. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" />
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    Dunno i never onos but it cant be worse than 3.1 where if 2 even teams would meet the alien one would almost always win unless its 10vs10 or something.
  • GreyFlcnGreyFlcn Join Date: 2006-12-19 Member: 59134Members, Constellation
    Onos should atleast have equivalent armoring / health as it does in 3.1
  • GreyFlcnGreyFlcn Join Date: 2006-12-19 Member: 59134Members, Constellation
    <!--quoteo(post=1591525:date=Dec 23 2006, 09:40 AM:name=gumhat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(gumhat @ Dec 23 2006, 09:40 AM) [snapback]1591525[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
    instead of increasing onos hp or armor would it be feasible to make bullets do half damage to it or something? with umbra that could make a onos pretty strong
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    So basically, make it the "Anti-HMG" unit ;D
  • AlignAlign Remain Calm Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5216Forum Moderators, Constellation
    You mean anti-everything since only the GL is a reusable non-bullet weapon, and good luck hitting with that enough to kill.
  • ZiGGYZiGGY Join Date: 2003-01-19 Member: 12479Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1591445:date=Dec 23 2006, 01:29 AM:name=GreyFlcn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(GreyFlcn @ Dec 23 2006, 01:29 AM) [snapback]1591445[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
    "Onos should atleast have equivalent armoring / health as it does in 3."
    "So basically, make it the "Anti-HMG" unit ;D"
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    The lerk is the mainstay anti-weapon unit with spores to severely hinder groups of marines and umbra to block 50% of bullets, as an example an umbraed onos has approximately 3800 health (1.52/1.38/1.26/1.17 hmg clips depending on weapon level) ontop of that carapace will add 350 armor, another 70-54 bullets (unfortunately though armor absorbtion rates do not give the full bonus for carapace to an onos anymore making it a near useless upgrade [ignoring regen only 217 armor would be added or 44-34 bullets]).
    Please note again that that is an UMBRAED onos so its normal damage values are half.
    Aside from the raw health of an onos it is also capable of reducing enemy damage output using stomp (hive2: cpne effect stun) and devour (hive1: eat a marine, kill him if you arent killed first) as such is insanely devastating against small groups of marines or out in the open. It is vulnerable and hard to control though, various upgrades such as celerity and scent of fear however will severely reduce the problems one would encounter with the onos <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
    It also does double damage to stuctures -- 180 damage! -- which means it can kill an observatory in 10 hits, an arms lab in 13 hits, a phase gate or turret factory in 17 hits, an advanced armoury in 23 hits and a res tower in 34 hits. That combined with its strength against small groups makes it one hell of a strong positional unit! (forgot to mention- takes half damage from turrets also)
    Its also worth noting healspray will heal an onos for up to 41hp or armor (if healed into armor == 82 damage or 4hmg>lv0 weapon bullets) per heal which can have great absorbtion applications in hit and run maneuvers. And finally please note ive done these values in HMG bullets (for lmg bullets double the values, for SG bullets divide by 8.5)
    So yeah this post was a bit of a pick'n'mix ramble, I havent noticed any problems with the Onos, it has strengths and it has weaknesses and needs to be played accordingly, it would not occur to me that the onos was underpowered and I have won many games simply because we had an onos doing its job.
  • AlignAlign Remain Calm Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5216Forum Moderators, Constellation
    edited December 2006
    Onos used to be the ultimate weapon. Now it's more like a very powerful gorge, in that it's "bilebomb" is much cheaper and that it has like 10x the effective hp, and the "web" can hit several marines - on demand(disregarding elevation issues).
    <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tiny.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::onos::" border="0" alt="tiny.gif" />
  • GreyFlcnGreyFlcn Join Date: 2006-12-19 Member: 59134Members, Constellation
    <!--quoteo(post=1591583:date=Dec 23 2006, 02:41 PM:name=ZiGGY)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ZiGGY @ Dec 23 2006, 02:41 PM) [snapback]1591583[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
    I havent noticed any problems with the Onos, it has strengths and it has weaknesses and needs to be played accordingly, it would not occur to me that the onos was underpowered and I have won many games simply because we had an onos doing its job.
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    Is that describing 3.1 or 3.2 ?
  • ZiGGYZiGGY Join Date: 2003-01-19 Member: 12479Members
    edited December 2006
    <!--quoteo(post=1591638:date=Dec 23 2006, 07:09 PM:name=GreyFlcn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(GreyFlcn @ Dec 23 2006, 07:09 PM) [snapback]1591638[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
    Is that describing 3.1 or 3.2 ?
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    3.2 duh, that IS what this topic is about <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
    The most noticable change for onos in this version is jetpacks are now significantly more viable for a marine team to get(in 3.1 they were more of a novelty due to the expense and utility -- they got totally owned by focus fades even if used with perfect tactics, but then again most things got owned by focus fades <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> but theyd die too quick to warrent the 15res/per they were <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />) which I havent honestly experienced enough to comment on, generally if the marines are using large amounts of jetpacks onos are usually not used <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />

    The onos has 15HMG bullets less health, but I havent really noticed much of a difference in the effectiveness of the onos as it still wins and loses in more or less the same manner, but thats not surprising really considering its only a 14% reduction in health at hive2
  • GreyFlcnGreyFlcn Join Date: 2006-12-19 Member: 59134Members, Constellation
    Well, I know that the hive armor bonus does more than just additional armor
    It also tweaks the absorbtion and negation values.

    Did you take that into account?
  • AlignAlign Remain Calm Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5216Forum Moderators, Constellation
    That was ALL the hive armor bonus did...
  • ZiGGYZiGGY Join Date: 2003-01-19 Member: 12479Members
    edited December 2006
    <!--quoteo(post=1591658:date=Dec 23 2006, 08:26 PM:name=GreyFlcn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(GreyFlcn @ Dec 23 2006, 08:26 PM) [snapback]1591658[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
    Well, I know that the hive armor bonus does more than just additional armor
    It also tweaks the absorbtion and negation values.

    Did you take that into account?
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    Not only did I take it into account I put it in my post, maybe you should read what I put before quizzing me? :S
    in 3.1 the armor values are 2/2.5/3 and absorption ratios .7/.8./.9 in 3.2 the armor value is 2 the absorption ratio is .7 (bug?)

    edit: I made a thread about armor when the forums came back up, link <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?s=7180106197886006272&showtopic=97903" target="_blank">here</a>
    with the notes on 3.2 posted somewhere near the bottom.
  • Splinter_SteveSplinter_Steve Join Date: 2005-03-20 Member: 45881Members
    Perhaps related to hmgs, there is a definite balance problem that falls somewhere between jetpacks and mines in this version. Between them, you can easily hold 3 or 4 rts and win the game regardless of the early game, ocs on the map, -anything-, even player skill when it comes to the competitive community (pugs/scrims). Any team that can lose 20 jetpacks to skulks alone in a short time period deserves to lose. But it's nigh impossible as you just stick two or three mine packs at a few locations and you pump more jps out before you lose anything against two hive aliens regardless of their lifeforms or coordination. In addition, lerks are now practically useless against jetpacks. On top of that, teching out other things such as weapons 3 and heavies is the easy logical next step, unless your team is so horribly outclassed that you're spending all your res consistently on new jp/sgs. From there it's almost always over. The mine/jetpack combo was always there, but now in the US community it's become obvious and the recent changes help make for an easy victory.
  • TOmekkiTOmekki Join Date: 2003-11-25 Member: 23524Members
    pretty bad marines if they need mines to defend res
  • DuoGodOfDeathDuoGodOfDeath Join Date: 2002-08-01 Member: 1044Members
    If you watched the Legend Of Hellabean you would quickly realize mines are the best anti-fade, lerk weapon.
  • ZiGGYZiGGY Join Date: 2003-01-19 Member: 12479Members
    mines for president!
  • coriscoris Join Date: 2003-07-08 Member: 18034Members, Constellation
    <!--quoteo(post=1594003:date=Jan 2 2007, 11:41 AM:name=DuoGodOfDeath)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DuoGodOfDeath @ Jan 2 2007, 11:41 AM) [snapback]1594003[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
    If you watched the Legend Of Hellabean you would quickly realize mines are the best anti-fade, lerk weapon.
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    This man speaks the truth.




    Seriously seeing a fade kill itself is a pretty rare sight.
  • Splinter_SteveSplinter_Steve Join Date: 2005-03-20 Member: 45881Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1594001:date=Jan 2 2007, 05:28 AM:name=TOmekki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TOmekki @ Jan 2 2007, 05:28 AM) [snapback]1594001[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
    pretty bad marines if they need mines to defend res
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    It's without a doubt frustrating, but it certainly works.
  • GreyFlcnGreyFlcn Join Date: 2006-12-19 Member: 59134Members, Constellation
    A lot of the concerns I've seen have been that Aliens have a hell of a time once Marines get Prototech.
    And can't push a turtled spawn even with Hive3.

    Just gonna toss out this concept.
    What if at very least, they restored Hive3 armor, (and not Hive2 armor)

    That way, unless the Marines relocate to a Hive, they can't camp their own spawn.

    It's also a decent reward for the difficult task of maintaining all three hives.
  • enigmaenigma Join Date: 2004-09-11 Member: 31623Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1594556:date=Jan 3 2007, 04:33 PM:name=GreyFlcn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(GreyFlcn @ Jan 3 2007, 04:33 PM) [snapback]1594556[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
    What if at very least, they restored Hive3 armor, (and not Hive2 armor)
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    i think it's already been suggested a few times and no one has opposed it yet
  • GreyFlcnGreyFlcn Join Date: 2006-12-19 Member: 59134Members, Constellation
    edited January 2007
    <!--quoteo(post=1594611:date=Jan 3 2007, 11:42 PM:name=enigma)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(enigma @ Jan 3 2007, 11:42 PM) [snapback]1594611[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
    i think it's already been suggested a few times and no one has opposed it yet
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    O rly. All I've seen so far is "Give it all back".
    Maybe I missed it.

    _

    *edit*
    Doh, post #1 ;D
  • MrBananaManMrBananaMan Join Date: 2005-02-26 Member: 42562Members
    what is onos's use besides letting you know aliens won the game if marines cant kill it within a minute of it being alive, and vice versa if they do kill it?
  • MasterPTGMasterPTG Join Date: 2006-11-30 Member: 58780Members
    I posted this on another thread (but I dont think anyone reads it b/c it's stickied..soo...here it is again <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />):


    A decision could be made............to kill the devour ability and put a 'recall' function on the onos instead . The recall would require half the adren. from an onos and would put him into a hive that is not being attacked. :x. That'd make the onos almost impossible to kill (75res is a LOT LOT of res to waste...) and would allow very very damaging hit and run attacks--also allowing him to be a meatshield.

    One might comment that HA's would be the ultimate powerhouse b/c of no devour, but one could argue that you can just ...gore them down to a decent hp and 'recall'. Then come back. A counter would be lowering the HA armor a bit, up'ing regular amor a bit, and perhaps even making HA more or less expensive to balance out the onos not being able to 'eat' that amount of amor.

    One might also comment that there would be other issues...eh.

    ------

    Another radical decision that could be made..........is to just replace 'charge' with a recall function. This would end games REALLY f'ing fast b/c the oni would hardly ever die. Can you imagine a group of oni charging rine start and one by one recalling? The oni would cause immense irrepairable damage within a very short amount of time--and then they'd be back within the minute to...cause some more. This would fix a LOT of the endgame problems.

    If the marines are going to kill the 3rd hive, they should be able to defend their base for 1-2 minutes against a crazy rogue onos or oni. If they're sieging...and they can actually siege it successfully, they should be able to defend against a recalling onos. Otherwise, WTH? should they not lose if they can't repel a crazy onos every minute or so after already giving up 3 hives?? If they marines gave up 3 hives, they should lose 95% of the time or even more. If they have the upgrades/weapons to fend off onos attacks for 5 minutes and siege/shoot down one of the hives, they should win. As they would have most likely won anyway even without an onos recalling. It just makes the 3 hive aliens a bit stronger, but the onos has already been nerfed w/ the 'killing' of the hive armor. I've died like 2-3 times as onos where in 3.1 I would NOT have died, just b/c hmg's #$%$'d up my armor so bad.
  • GreyFlcnGreyFlcn Join Date: 2006-12-19 Member: 59134Members, Constellation
    I still like Hive3 armor back, without Hive2.
    It keeps things interesting throughout the early, mid, and late game.

    If the marines can level up without any of their important gear getting destroyed. They get Heavy Armor.
    If the aliens can level up without any of their important gear getting destroyed. They get Hive Armor.
  • MasterPTGMasterPTG Join Date: 2006-11-30 Member: 58780Members
    Actually....if you made it so that HA was linked to armor 3 and weapons 3...and make HA like A4, and hmg W4, that'd be pretty cool.....but overall would probably be extremely unbalanced.

    The hive armor would be cool to have back though, or just buff the aliens a bit--which is what hive armor does. =D.
  • Joe2Joe2 Join Date: 2004-09-03 Member: 31268Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1595104:date=Jan 5 2007, 07:41 PM:name=GreyFlcn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(GreyFlcn @ Jan 5 2007, 07:41 PM) [snapback]1595104[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
    I still like Hive3 armor back, without Hive2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    No hive2 armor so you can't take the last locked hive ?
    Onos without hive armor die too fast. Onos need the hive2 armor.
  • GreyFlcnGreyFlcn Join Date: 2006-12-19 Member: 59134Members, Constellation
    <!--quoteo(post=1595404:date=Jan 6 2007, 12:04 PM:name=Joe2)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Joe2 @ Jan 6 2007, 12:04 PM) [snapback]1595404[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
    No hive2 armor so you can't take the last locked hive ?
    Onos without hive armor die too fast. Onos need the hive2 armor.
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    Perhaps.

    But Hive3 armor is a better alternative than no Hive armor at all.
  • blackpiranhablackpiranha Germany Join Date: 2003-03-11 Member: 14375Members, Constellation
    <!--quoteo(post=1595106:date=Jan 5 2007, 12:47 PM:name=MasterPTG)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MasterPTG @ Jan 5 2007, 12:47 PM) [snapback]1595106[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
    Actually....if you made it so that HA was linked to armor 3 and weapons 3...and make HA like A4, and hmg W4, that'd be pretty cool.....but overall would probably be extremely unbalanced.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


    yea and why shouldn't we give them tanks, flamethrowers and mechs too !
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