<!--QuoteBegin-crazynet+Oct 20 2004, 01:16 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (crazynet @ Oct 20 2004, 01:16 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> lorn it used to be I would see your name in the forums and it would seem that you knew what you were talking to and un-bias. Right now for some reason I think that you were out a witch hunt against the devs and PT's, and with the last post it seems that you are up set that you were not chosen to move on to PT's after vet abolishment.
You made the point that on one release that the changes were made by the leader of one of the best clans. That’s all and good but: A. You don’t personally know what they were talking about, B. You don’t know his mindset about how he thought the changes should be, C. You don’t know if he was considering both sides of the ball, clanning and regular play Right now regular play IS the life of the game. Odiously clanning isn’t working out to well for the time being. So until you can get the optimizations in for " clanning " its best to have a more "pubbing" side to the game than an organized play. The best buissness is to keep the largest group happy because if you **** them off for a smaller group well you have just lost a lot of players in this since.
To me this has gone out of control, I personally don’t know how any of this is going to change any thing except get Nem O and the other devs against the use of community testing.
At this point if I was Flayra I would just close any testing done by the community. Stop the communication and move on with development in secret.
Ill admit to the fact that I am not in a clan or anything, but I cant see how clan play is the life or death of a game. Yes the clanning community is small... but the general user base is large and still growing.
Its hard enough to go threw and write a program/game to please a lot of people and a lot of different stiles of play. Then when arrogant people come threw and think that they know every thing and how the game should be and all it just ends up **** off the developer. Lorn in your post granted not all of them did it but what it seems to me you said was that a degree of arrogance came about from the Vets, which in turn caused a rift. You cant test a game with a rift in the middle of your testing team… just doesn’t work. You have to cut the problem child and sYk seems to be the one that caused it with the thread so Vets went out. One bad apple can spoil the bunch, and that’s what sounds like happened there. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I am in no witch hunt, I'm just trying to tell the truth. If people want to denounce it, it's fine by me but by simply "ignoring it" they are attracting a dislike from those who do agree with me.
By the way, it's not a witch hunt against PT's as a witch-hunt goes out with the intent of finding a crime without even knowing what the hell is going on, that is not the case. Not only do I know what is going on but I also dislike it a lot, and I also know where the problem is stemming from.
In response to A, B, C: A. I know what he was talking about. B. I do know his mindset pretty well, go back and look at the 2.01 changelog if you don't believe me. If I had to place a small, very very small bias of him anywhere, it might be towards the marines. C. Yes, yes in fact I do. He led a pub server.
Regular play is the life of the game to you, but the truth is for common pure pubbers, they chew and screw with a game, clanners are those who stick around and continue to keep it's popularity. I know this as I am a pubber in other games, I play it and leave it never to care again. Clanners always care about the game. Having a few elete group of playtesters sit on their status while claiming they represent the pubber populace that is constantly changing is a riduclous statement.
And for the love of god, you are making the falacy of treating "pubbers" and "clanners" as two different types of people: This is not true. Remember what I wrote two pages ago.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->degree of arrogance came about from the Vets<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This was one factor, but the arrogance came from the fact that the PT's already were hostile to them.
In fact, for some strange reason there has always been dev hostility towards the clan community.
Case in point:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Clan Recruitment (moderated) Post your clan's URL, mission statement, member list, etc. Posts in this forum are moderated to keep it organized. Please be sure to include your clan URL and info in your post. If your post isn't coherent or your clan doesn't have a URL, your post may be omitted.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you go look at that dead forum, you should notice how since day 1, it was the only one where there is zero dicussion allowed, because somehow clanners are the evil type who like to flame more than anyone else. No one even goes there anymore as most clanners are turned off by the devs, but the very fact that this forum immediately got special attention since the begaining shows the bias that the higher ups in the community have held towards the clanners.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->One bad apple can spoil the bunch, and that’s what sounds like happened there.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Since I do not know the nature of sYn's post that got them removed, it is difficult to say, however I do know that not all of sYn's members were popular (no not firewater <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->) so it is entirely possible.
tankefuglOne Script To Rule Them All...Trondheim, NorwayJoin Date: 2002-11-14Member: 8641Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
I see this thread de-railing into chaos based on the misconception that PTs do all the testing, tests only balance, and that the devs doesn't take feedback from the regular player.
Being 3AM right now reading the 1st 3 posts on the 1st page and the entire last 2 pages. I can only hope that Beta 6 will be good. As of now with about 90% of the servers with BS_1 and some servers with "Vet icon = kick" im at a level were I could care less about NS. In the past month I've played maybe a total of 1-3 hours. And its getting less and less as time goes by.
<pray> I can only pray that this version will rock and half the servers will accept scripts (because right now Im only frequent on about 3 servers out of the 500?). Hopefully the vet/script bashing will stop and I can once enjoy NS when it first came out. </pray>
BizZy_9mm_MessiahOld School MemberJoin Date: 2003-07-25Member: 18411Members, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin-DuoGodOfDeath+Oct 20 2004, 01:59 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DuoGodOfDeath @ Oct 20 2004, 01:59 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Being 3AM right now reading the 1st 3 posts on the 1st page and the entire last 2 pages. I can only hope that Beta 6 will be good. As of now with about 90% of the servers with BS_1 and some servers with "Vet icon = kick" im at a level were I could care less about NS. In the past month I've played maybe a total of 1-3 hours. And its getting less and less as time goes by.
<pray> I can only pray that this version will rock and half the servers will accept scripts (because right now Im only frequent on about 3 servers out of the 500?). Hopefully the vet/script bashing will stop and I can once enjoy NS when it first came out. </pray>
Bring back the good ol days`
Sleep time <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Amen.
<!--QuoteBegin-DuoGodOfDeath+Oct 20 2004, 01:59 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DuoGodOfDeath @ Oct 20 2004, 01:59 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Being 3AM right now reading the 1st 3 posts on the 1st page and the entire last 2 pages. I can only hope that Beta 6 will be good. As of now with about 90% of the servers with BS_1 and some servers with "Vet icon = kick" im at a level were I could care less about NS. In the past month I've played maybe a total of 1-3 hours. And its getting less and less as time goes by.
<pray> I can only pray that this version will rock and half the servers will accept scripts (because right now Im only frequent on about 3 servers out of the 500?). Hopefully the vet/script bashing will stop and I can once enjoy NS when it first came out. </pray>
Bring back the good ol days`
Sleep time <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> we beg, we pray, but it still happends anyways.
<!--QuoteBegin-crazynet+Oct 20 2004, 01:16 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (crazynet @ Oct 20 2004, 01:16 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Lorn <span style='color:gray'>irrelvent </span> right now for some reason I think that you were out a witch hunt against the devs and PT's, and with the last post it seems that you are up set that you were not chosen to move on to PT's after vet abolishment.
You made the point that on one release that the changes were made by the leader of one of the best clans. That’s all and good but: A. You don’t personally know what they were talking about, B. You don’t know his mindset about how he thought the changes should be, C. You don’t know if he was considering both sides of the ball, clanning and regular play Right now regular play IS the life of the game. Odiously clanning isn’t working out to well for the time being. So until you can get the optimizations in for " clanning " its best to have a more "pubbing" side to the game than an organized play. The best buissness is to keep the largest group happy because if you **** them off for a smaller group well you have just lost a lot of players in this since.
To me this has gone out of control, I personally don’t know how any of this is going to change any thing except get Nem O and the other devs against the use of community testing.
At this point if I was Flayra I would just close any testing done by the community. Stop the communication and move on with development in secret.
Ill admit to the fact that I am not in a clan or anything, but I cant see how clan play is the life or death of a game. Yes the clanning community is small... but the general user base is large and still growing.
Its hard enough to go threw and write a program/game to please a lot of people and a lot of different stiles of play. Then when arrogant people come threw and think that they know every thing and how the game should be and all it just ends up **** off the developer. Lorn in your post granted not all of them did it but what it seems to me you said was that a degree of arrogance came about from the Vets, which in turn caused a rift. You cant test a game with a rift in the middle of your testing team… just doesn’t work. You have to cut the problem child and sYk seems to be the one that caused it with the thread so Vets went out. One bad apple can spoil the bunch, and that’s what sounds like happened there. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm sure you've played a game and seen a really good player and thought - Hey! I'd like to be that good, it aint fair!.
That's why the competetive scene is so important to a game. A player that have played for a long time feels he wants to move up and play against others with equal or surpassing skill, if he cant have this he will quit the game and in the end leave the rest of the populace without a reason to play on. Because it's on everyone's interest to become better, that IS why we all continue to play this game even after the magic has worn off. To become better at it. Dont fool yourselves.
I would just like to say that although Forlorn may be a mildly psychotic bumhat(would use a worse word, but, eh'. ), he does make good points. If you want to discuss something, try and do it without a level of emotion that skewes your perspective. (One of the (major) problems with 2.0 testing, which, I believe, Forlorn has already mentioned, if PT's and vets had gotten along well as a whole, 2.0 probably would have ended up being one of the better NS versions out there, but, eh', past is past. )
Sidenote: I think the vet program worked out well, and, ironicly, a good number of the PTs became much more skilled after playing with the vets for a few months, myself included. (Thanks guys! <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->)
*Patpats the 'lorn.* Less angst, and more people will listen to you. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Wow, another post by me, this is scary, I might be getting active on the boards again. o_O
Anyways, as far as trying to balance to pub games goes, statistically it really is balanced, with 50%/50% alien/marine wins, and, in all honestly, trying to balance pubs is a bit, well, useless, as a pub can go any way at any time due to the random nature of the teams, one team can be stacked, someone can drop SC's at start, bad commander, good commander, super fades, stupid fades, there are virtually a ludicrous ammount of variables when trying to balance a game where random players come togather with no pretense and try and play against another team of the same nature.
Pretty much everyone has played in a game where one player on one side or the other just completely dominates the opposing team, and, more than likely, someone will yell that whatever that player is doing is overpowered/needs to be nerfed.
Now, if this was a perfect world where every player had exactly the same ammount of skill in all areas, and the same ammount of coordination/etc. this style of balancing would be possible, but, at the moment, it seems someone illogical/impossible to me.
Also, take a look at, for example, 1.04. Everyone screamed marines were overpowered, however, as the version went on, alien wins steadily increased, as stronger marines forced players to become better aliens. It is a natural course of events for players to become better as their opponets do as well, and, for even pub players(Clanners are faster at this) will find ways to counter strategies, many times without someone on the dev team even thinking of them. (Although Grendel, the Euro PT lead ATM, is very good at finding such, TBH.) IMO also, some the best/most fun NS games I can remember playing were in NS versions where a team was 'overpowered', and defeating that undefeatable strat on the opposing team due to good planing/playing/etc.
Anyways, that's my two cents for now, cya' guys later.
-- Khaim - Wind
(Disclaimer: I do not speak for the Dev team in any way shape or form, mmmkay'..? )
The dude who balanced 2.0 into 2.01 almost singlehandedly was HAMBONE. He was also responsible for 2.0 final.
The story:
At the end of 2.0, you had 2 different versions that were out. 2.0, and 2.0z. According to HAMBONE, both were awful. He talked with Flayra over the phone and made the real 2.0. This was released to the public.
This marked the start of HAMBONE's influence with NS. He went on to make 90% or so of 2.01, as well as almost every version right up untill the first beta 1 of 3.0, this is where HAMBONE I believe lost his influence. I believe he lost his influence as he became inactive from the game, but that is irrelevent.
HAMBONE was only responsible for balance changes, by the way. Bugtesting is another topic.
But regardless the whole HAMBONE thing was that you had a player who was a top clanner, probably the best commander at the time, who represented the clan scene and dictated many of the changes.
You can still see HAMBONE's influence with NS to this date, it is a lesser known mode called HAMBONE mode in combat, what is something that HAMBONE thought would be the ideal form of combat. The most recent version of combat actually incopirates some idea's of HAMBONE.
So really I do not see how this whole idea that vet players represent a mentality makes any sense at all. HAMBONE also led one of the most popular NS servers in existence, THE HAMPTONS, which was full almost 24/7 during it's prime, complete with a special favor to give a reserved slot to any player who was in a top ten clan of the time (vet clan). There were some pretty insane games on there back in the day, including masses of gorge rushes, fade rushes, shotgun rushes, everything you can think of went down in that pub as far as NS play goes. However the pub eventually lost steam after a few months as more and more players realized how biased the game was towards the marines in large game play.
Trust me, clanners understand large game balance, aka "pub" balance. HAMBONE not only led this pub but he also saw much of it firsthand, as well as views from those who were on it.
It is interesting to note that there has never been another popular pub on the scale THE HAMPTONS was, where it was so popular it got to the point unless you were a vet you could not get on, ever, at almost any time of the day. Actually it was pretty insane now that I think about it.
I believe the reason we have never seen a pub like that is because there has never been any changes since 2.01 that would fix large scale games, and as a result clanners still believe (rightly so I may add) that regular NS in large games suck, and pub games in general suck.
As a result, you only see clanners really play combat nowadays, which has many things over regular NS in terms of gameplay (for a pub): - Individual players have much more power - Less of a wait for dying - More balanced, believe it or not - Faster, and thus appeals as more fun
Regular NS could have these. Hopefully beta 6 will bring these. Now I know I can't name any changes, but this probably can be fixed with an adjusted spawn system. Perhaps a pub with the popularity of THE HAMPTONS may rise again, but the point is it will not untill something fairly major is done.
Furthermore, it is funny that with the majority of the PT's going to the "pubber" populace, we have not seen one beta or even a <b>build</b> which has attempted to fix the aforemented issues. This goes to support my entire idea that better players make the better balancers, because clanners have known about the faults with pub games over a year now (wow, has it really been that long?).
In order for NS to continue to make progress there probably needs someone who complies the list of existing ideas as a sort of moderator between the demand dev's emphasize on attitude, versus the ability skilled players place on preformance. HAMBONE filled this role for awhile, but as he went inactive from playing NS I believe he lost it. Not to say though, I'm sure Flayra and HAMBONE respect each other fairly well. Just a different matter of circumstances arise, it happens all the time, and relations change.
Um as far as I remember 2.01 was "balanced" as you put it by releasing 3 different server patches, 2.01a, 2.01b & 2.01c. The most well recieved (the one used on most servers & adopted for competitive play), which was 2.01b, was then refined into 2.01d which again was well recieved and was bugtested with a couple of release candidates & then 2.01 final. HAMBONE may have suggested the changes for 2.01a/b/c but it was the community <b>en masse</b> which voted with its feet (literally, you would see servers running a or c completely empty while b servers were packed to bursting point). However HAMBONE did a lot more for NS than he is ever attributed with. Probably because he was a veteran, leader & commander of the top US clan at the time and an all round nice guy. We've seen the attitudes some people have towards those 3 categories. As Forlorn says beta 5 combat is beginning to look more like HAMBONE mode all the time but lets just keep that between ourselves. Otherwise people might get the idea that good ideas come from people not the labels they attach to those people.
<!--QuoteBegin-Malibu Stacey+Oct 20 2004, 10:38 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Malibu Stacey @ Oct 20 2004, 10:38 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Um as far as I remember 2.01 was "balanced" as you put it by releasing 3 different server patches, 2.01a, 2.01b & 2.01c. The most well recieved (the one used on most servers & adopted for competitive play), which was 2.01b, was then refined into 2.01d which again was well recieved and was bugtested with a couple of release candidates & then 2.01 final. HAMBONE may have suggested the changes for 2.01a/b/c but it was the community <b>en masse</b> which voted with its feet (literally, you would see servers running a or c completely empty while b servers were packed to bursting point). However HAMBONE did a lot more for NS than he is ever attributed with. Probably because he was a veteran, leader & commander of the top US clan at the time and an all round nice guy. We've seen the attitudes some people have towards those 3 categories. As Forlorn says beta 5 combat is beginning to look more like HAMBONE mode all the time but lets just keep that between ourselves. Otherwise people might get the idea that good ideas come from people not the labels they attach to those people. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> They voted with their feet, but I'm almost certain each and every build was looked over by HAMBONE at first.
Look at 2.01a with the nerf to the skulk; one of HAMBONE's things he always liked from 1.04 was low skulk HP, because it appealed to him in making a faster game.
You "care" about the game, yet you freely disrupt and destroy it's community with your eletist attitude in the same breath. Your self-contradiction is amazing to behold. If you really did "care" about the game you would stop being an arse to everyone and actually help both the game and the community, and THEN you might be conisdered for playtester, and you could do some real help for the game, which is clearly what you wish to do, attitudes aside.
So, forlorn, do you care enough about NS to care about the community and eventually perform a greater good to it's development instead of standing around in the forums and yelling about how the devs should listen to you because you are so leet at NS that everything you say <b>must</b> be right? I assure you that you are on the track of being banned totally and completly unless you can change your attitude, and by doing so, you will not only assure that people listen to what you say, but you will also increase your chances of actually helping the game you care about.
Is it time to make a stand, or are you going to childishly hold onto the notion that you can change NS by making everyone on these forums hate you?
<!--QuoteBegin-Redford+Oct 20 2004, 12:42 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Redford @ Oct 20 2004, 12:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You "care" about the game, yet you freely disrupt and destroy it's community with your eletist attitude in the same breath. Your self-contradiction is amazing to behold. If you really did "care" about the game you would stop being an arse to everyone and actually help both the game and the community, and THEN you might be conisdered for playtester, and you could do some real help for the game, which is clearly what you wish to do, attitudes aside.
So, forlorn, do you care enough about NS to care about the community and eventually perform a greater good to it's development instead of standing around in the forums and yelling about how the devs should listen to you because you are so leet at NS that everything you say <b>must</b> be right? I assure you that you are on the track of being banned totally and completly unless you can change your attitude, and by doing so, you will not only assure that people listen to what you say, but you will also increase your chances of actually helping the game you care about.
So, is it time to make a stand, or are you going to childishly hold onto the notion that you can change NS by making everyone on these forums hate you? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You're lack of intelligence amazes me, which is probably the only reason you are an IRC op, and an IRC op at the most.
Lorn is literally speaking.. for I can almost GUARANTEE 100% of the veterens of this game, including myself. There are 4 out of 80 playtesters that I can name off of the top of my head that actually have ANY skill at all
Blue Keyser Grendel User
Pathetic, I know.
Now, lorn has made 4-5 VERY relevent posts about a discussion that has been needing to be talked about for quite some time now, and the ignorance that is thrown out towards those who say "Our PT system is not good" or "Our PT's themselves aren't good" is something you would HARDLY expect from a community of gamers amongst a game that is BOUND to go places.
This game is very unbalanced at the moment, and since I started actually paying attention to the game, it's physics, and what it takes to be a good player in late 2.01.. it HAS been unbalanced. You tell me that why a group of 12, 14, 16 or even 20-32 players of EQUAL skill can play a game, and the marines are a guaranteed win 99% of the time. That's not what I hear happens in the playtest though. And the most recent thing I've heard, was being able to move freely while you have cloaking, including bunnyhopping. <i>THIS</i> IS THE KIND OF **** YOU IMPLEMENT TO BALANCE A GAME?
Now, how can you say that lorn is destroying the community with his elitest attitude, by stating that our playtest system sucks? Why the hell would you throw around accusations toward a skilled player of the game? Is it because he has a point you don't like? Or is it because he is better than you? Is it because you feel that your e-power is at stake as an IRC op?
You complain about vets being **** and not wanting to help. When it is a bunch of VETERENS that run NSLearn, which is VERY successful, and look at the NSGuide program, founded by one of your own, which has failed horribly, and LOOK! THEY GOT ICONS!! WOO!
I can guarantee you 100% that a veteren player of this game, that has been playing with clans, not necessarily in them, but playing with them, and knows the good players would care about this game MUCH more than any random pubber who sent in an e-mail to be a PT.
Now lorn has said NOTHING here about him being leet at all, other than the fact that he is better than the majority of the PT's which ANY veteren can vouche for.
Hell, if you KNEW anything about the community, you'd know half of which I was telling you, but you argue cases that are one sided and what you think are good for the community, but truth be told, you are merely insulting veteren players, and pushing to kill the community further by allowing the game to keep destroying itself.
<!--QuoteBegin-tjosan+Oct 19 2004, 10:05 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (tjosan @ Oct 19 2004, 10:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The problem begins when people who always agree gets picked before those who say their mind.
The problem has begun.
[edit] Those who always agree are most often considered sociable and nice persons. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Forlorn say what he think about the game, and it does not correspond with your view. Therefore he is - I quote - "I assure you that you are on the track of being banned totally".
That doesnt seem very fair to me. Freedom of speech and a multitude of different opinions ftw.
On the one hand we have people making arguments that we should have full disclosure of what is being tested at the moment, because the community is mature enough to handle it. On the other hand, you have people getting leaked bits of out-of-context information that may or may not be true, and completely flipping out about it. A bit of a contradiction, yes?
This is simply an observation on my part, I decided a while back that this thread had grown into too much of a screaming match to be worth actually posting full thoughts in.
Right now, it seems like 'favoritism' is a lot worse than 'elitism' in the NS community. Yeah, there are 'elitists' out there who definately are **** and have totally crappy attitudes. However, right now, the game seems to be molded more by the people who play favorites, listening or accepting views from people they like, hang out with, etc. Many times I see a lot of conversations in the natural selection channel which should I say be a neutral ground for all players be turned into some sort of haven for anti-scripters, anti-vets, anti-clanners. People sit around, talk about this script and that script are used by total n00bs, anyone who disagrees is somehow banned.
Just because someone, in this case, Forlorn, is not well liked in the NS Community does NOT mean he can't bring up good points. Hell, I'd be the first to admit that Forlorn could be a total jackass at times, but sometimes what he says actually makes sense. Ideas should be taken fairly from anyone, from the lowest skilled player to the most elite of players if the game is to go anywhere. Denouncing ideas just because of who the person is is totally unfair and a huge step back for the community. I think it's time the community try to change and try to shake all these labels and whatnot that is heavily impeding the game's development.
Sure that's the case for democractic opinions such as who should be a PT.
When it comes down to it, though, you can't be accepting ideas for future builds from an unskilled player, you can take the ideas and mold them accordingly, unless their idea actually DOES make sense.
Eliteism SHOULD triumph over favoritism if you want a business, or game for that matter, to succeed.
Sometimes the unskilled players might see things a very experienced player might miss or never run into. And as for their ideas, ideas always go through a molding process, a discussion and analysis. They're almost never just shifted into a build so it's safe to say any ideas from an unskilled player would be talked about and changed accordingly. But it's the core concepts that matters and sometimes, those types of players can surprise you.
TheAdjHe demanded a cool forum title of some type.Join Date: 2004-05-03Member: 28436Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
Forlorn doesn't "destroy the community" by stating something that is painfully obvious to many of us already, and has been for some time. When I started competitive play, by clanmates and mentors told me to respect the old vets, laugh at the crappy 2.1 vets that wanted nothing but the icon (not the 2.1 vets that joined and helped, who I still respect more than almost anyone else - Hi Ford <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> ), and expect to be ridiculed, made fun of, and tormented by everyone else the moment I gained any skill. Sure enough, they were correct. I frequently get banned, verbally/textually abused, and downright insulted not only by random pubbers, but by some of these so-called important community figures. Take this outtake from the #naturalselection channel that occurred yesterday (tags edited because I have color codes and cant remove them):
Scythe: actually caring about the hoardes of raving idiots saying they know the game better than the people that made it
Me:Who do you think knows teh game balance better
Me:Flayra, who probably hsn't played NS in decades
Me:Or a competitive player that plays at least 2 hours a day, has seasons of CAL experience in competitive play, and understands how the current balance is
Me:I think the competitive player would therefore understand the game better in it's current form than one of the developers
Scythe:lorn and that i-know-everything-clanner-theadj, you are aware that flay and co have a tracking system set up by which they can view the outcome of every ns game played, along with the number of players in the game?
Me:And that makes them knowledgable because they play every day *how* exactly?
Me:Don't insult me Scythe|Bed, I didn't insult you
Scythe:you insult me by existing, i can't stand arrogance
Me:I'm arrogant because I have an opinion that's different than yours?
Scythe- rolls eyes and wanders off to write up his gyroscope praticial
So this is how I get treated by having a differing opinion on something from one of the "High standing community members". Right. Despite the fact that I am not only the commander for the best clan of the past two CAL seasons, but also one of the most active NSGuides, an active member of NSLearn (We keep records for review by the Development Team by the way, they're available if you speak to Mustang or FireWater - They show the trends of how active we are, what we teach, etc). I go out of my way to help people as often as possible, and the response I recieve from someone that does nothing more than idle IRC in the official channel and "moderate", if that's what you call treating people like this, is downright hostile. Outstanding, way to treat one of the outstanding competitive community members. Attention "important community people": The competitive players are NOT OUT TO GET YOU OR RUIN THE COMMUNITY. We probably care as much as you do, because we play this game more than we'd like to (I can personally attribute the F I will get in Reason and Revolution to NS), but we care a lot. That's why we say things like this. Do some people get a little upset, arrogant, or act like ****? Sure, but some of you are matching us **** for tat. I don't tend to act like an **** often, but I can step up to the plate and match some of you pretty well.
Just because we have a different opinion than you doesn't mean suddenly we're "ruining the community". Get off your high horse and recognize who is doing something in the community. You playtest the next version? Awesome. I spend 2 hours a day helping new players and players wanting to enter the competitive scene overcome ignorance and lies to understand how the game really is. I field 5 questions a day in #NSLearn about scripting because they couldn't ask here and get a straight answer if they wanted one, and most of the questions get the answer from me that they don't need a script to do what they're asking (Many of them get the impression that leap/bite and other garbage actually works - mainly from this forum). I do the field work that keeps the game alive, and there are MANY, MANY other people like me, and probably a good bit that do even more. FireWater may have a "bad attitude" sometimes, but he cares about the game, and I see him do nothing but help new players anytime he's around. Mustang has the best aim in the game, everyone's aim pales in comparison to his, yet he helps newbies learn how to manuveur as marine pretty often. Annihilator and myself help people understand the mechanics of competitive commanding. Not only do we help these people and spend a lot of time doing it (anyone that has read some of the articles on NSLearn, or is involved in any way with the current NSGuide work under way understands the time involved), we also keep our clans alive. Anyone in Exigent will tell you I'm probably the only reason we're alive right now, and it will stay that way as long as I'm involved.
I am not some ignorant **** clan vet that's probably 16-18 years old and knows everything. I am married, I am nearly 20 years old. I leave in January to go overseas because I <b>volunteered</b> to go go Afghanistan with another Army unit that isn't even my own, because they needed people. I understand what sacrifice is, I understand how life works. I don't really care about someone's e-power, I simply want to play NS and help others enjoy it too, and I care about the game. It just absolutely boggles my mind that some ignorant people who either rarely play NS, probably have never played it competitively, or haven't played since like 2.01 was the standard can treat people like me or any other serious, active competitive player with anything but RESPECT, because that is what we deserve. We play this game more than anyone else, we care more than anyone else, we do more than anyone else. There are about 5-10 people that play competitively right now that are much better players because they asked for my help, and I gave it to them. Scythe and the others like you: What have YOU done to help anyone besides yourselves? Me and my kind will keep NS alive as long as it's possible because we care about the game, and invite anyone that wishes to learn to play as we do, if only they will listen and understand. Please, instead of being arrogant yourselves and hold us in contempt for having views other than your own, think about what's slightly more important and help us improve this game.
Its pretty hard to guess what the Devs think and realy are like untill you hear from them or have them post thier stance in person. Thats just my belief. I have a hard time beliving something unless I see it for myself or hear it from someone I belive is very trust worthy.
I would like see a post from thier PR person conserning the opinions stated in here. but Eh.
To put it in perspective. PLEASE dont "read into this" too much. But basicly its like watching a Extreme Lefty talk to a Extreme Righty. each one trying to convince eachother who is right, and who is wrong. To simplify it more its like to kids going "IS SO!. IS NOT. IS SO. IS NOT" and now each side is getting more "friends" into the argument.
There have been some very nice post that brought up intellegent arguments, but those will probrably be lost into the wind with the amount of bashing and flaming, and just bad arguements/debates. But thats just the way it is or so it seems.
[edit] I have to say, that was a pretty nice post adj.
The evidence that Adj posted shows blatantly how bad the community has become. With those who were given ops in Natural Selection's first and main channel having attitudes like that shows how the game will continue to spiral down. People like Scythe will just taint and widen the rift that currently exists between competitive players and non-competitive players. The game definately won't progress smoothly if the rift isn't fixed, but instead continues to widen. Perhaps a major change is needed, not just in the game itself, but in the structure of the community.
The community needs people who are willing to help bridge the gap. Not people who just want to scream and rave about how bad things are. You can make a diffrance, just try to help, and understand and keep an open mind at all times.
<!--QuoteBegin-The_IRS+Oct 20 2004, 03:07 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (The_IRS @ Oct 20 2004, 03:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Adj - 1, Devs - 0 <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I hope some of those IRC op/moderators people aren't our actual Devs. If they are, god help us all, NS is behind hope then.
<!--QuoteBegin--|HN|-_Prodigy_+Oct 20 2004, 06:01 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (-|HN|-_Prodigy_ @ Oct 20 2004, 06:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> There are 4 out of 80 playtesters that I can name off of the top of my head that actually have ANY skill at all
Blue Keyser Grendel User
Pathetic, I know. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Nah man, Grendel just screams at people over the mics.
A more accurate list would replace Magitek with Grendel.
<!--QuoteBegin-crisano+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (crisano)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-The_IRS+Oct 20 2004, 03:07 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (The_IRS @ Oct 20 2004, 03:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Adj - 1, Devs - 0 <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I hope some of those IRC op/moderators people aren't our actual Devs. If they are, god help us all, NS is behind hope then.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When you finally open up your heart and let others bond with you, spiritually and mentally, you seriously grow as a person. And I think this thread shows the unity and kindness of the whole Microsoft community as a whole. I am glad to be a part of this thread and engage in highly intellectual and stimulating conversations about the struggles we go through every day just to get that extra level of gratitude and cultural adaptation in. I'd like to thank the people who contributed to this informative thread and let them know that I to was there fighting beside you, I to was there struggling, I to was there laughing in glee and also mourning in grief. But you know what? We pushed through and came out victorious. So to sum up this whole epic exchange of highly sophisticated and well thought out expression of opinions, my final words are "ario maio xi."
Let the dogs of pride be with you on your journey through the thousand seas.
Comments
You made the point that on one release that the changes were made by the leader of one of the best clans. That’s all and good but:
A. You don’t personally know what they were talking about,
B. You don’t know his mindset about how he thought the changes should be,
C. You don’t know if he was considering both sides of the ball, clanning and regular play
Right now regular play IS the life of the game. Odiously clanning isn’t working out to well for the time being. So until you can get the optimizations in for " clanning " its best to have a more "pubbing" side to the game than an organized play. The best buissness is to keep the largest group happy because if you **** them off for a smaller group well you have just lost a lot of players in this since.
To me this has gone out of control, I personally don’t know how any of this is going to change any thing except get Nem O and the other devs against the use of community testing.
At this point if I was Flayra I would just close any testing done by the community. Stop the communication and move on with development in secret.
Ill admit to the fact that I am not in a clan or anything, but I cant see how clan play is the life or death of a game. Yes the clanning community is small... but the general user base is large and still growing.
Its hard enough to go threw and write a program/game to please a lot of people and a lot of different stiles of play. Then when arrogant people come threw and think that they know every thing and how the game should be and all it just ends up **** off the developer. Lorn in your post granted not all of them did it but what it seems to me you said was that a degree of arrogance came about from the Vets, which in turn caused a rift. You cant test a game with a rift in the middle of your testing team… just doesn’t work. You have to cut the problem child and sYk seems to be the one that caused it with the thread so Vets went out. One bad apple can spoil the bunch, and that’s what sounds like happened there. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am in no witch hunt, I'm just trying to tell the truth. If people want to denounce it, it's fine by me but by simply "ignoring it" they are attracting a dislike from those who do agree with me.
By the way, it's not a witch hunt against PT's as a witch-hunt goes out with the intent of finding a crime without even knowing what the hell is going on, that is not the case. Not only do I know what is going on but I also dislike it a lot, and I also know where the problem is stemming from.
In response to A, B, C:
A. I know what he was talking about.
B. I do know his mindset pretty well, go back and look at the 2.01 changelog if you don't believe me. If I had to place a small, very very small bias of him anywhere, it might be towards the marines.
C. Yes, yes in fact I do. He led a pub server.
Regular play is the life of the game to you, but the truth is for common pure pubbers, they chew and screw with a game, clanners are those who stick around and continue to keep it's popularity. I know this as I am a pubber in other games, I play it and leave it never to care again. Clanners always care about the game. Having a few elete group of playtesters sit on their status while claiming they represent the pubber populace that is constantly changing is a riduclous statement.
And for the love of god, you are making the falacy of treating "pubbers" and "clanners" as two different types of people: This is not true. Remember what I wrote two pages ago.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->degree of arrogance came about from the Vets<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This was one factor, but the arrogance came from the fact that the PT's already were hostile to them.
In fact, for some strange reason there has always been dev hostility towards the clan community.
Case in point:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Clan Recruitment (moderated)
Post your clan's URL, mission statement, member list, etc. Posts in this forum are moderated to keep it organized. Please be sure to include your clan URL and info in your post. If your post isn't coherent or your clan doesn't have a URL, your post may be omitted.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you go look at that dead forum, you should notice how since day 1, it was the only one where there is zero dicussion allowed, because somehow clanners are the evil type who like to flame more than anyone else. No one even goes there anymore as most clanners are turned off by the devs, but the very fact that this forum immediately got special attention since the begaining shows the bias that the higher ups in the community have held towards the clanners.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->One bad apple can spoil the bunch, and that’s what sounds like happened there.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Since I do not know the nature of sYn's post that got them removed, it is difficult to say, however I do know that not all of sYn's members were popular (no not firewater <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->) so it is entirely possible.
<!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<pray>
I can only pray that this version will rock and half the servers will accept scripts (because right now Im only frequent on about 3 servers out of the 500?). Hopefully the vet/script bashing will stop and I can once enjoy NS when it first came out.
</pray>
Bring back the good ol days`
Sleep time
<pray>
I can only pray that this version will rock and half the servers will accept scripts (because right now Im only frequent on about 3 servers out of the 500?). Hopefully the vet/script bashing will stop and I can once enjoy NS when it first came out.
</pray>
Bring back the good ol days`
Sleep time <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Amen.
<pray>
I can only pray that this version will rock and half the servers will accept scripts (because right now Im only frequent on about 3 servers out of the 500?). Hopefully the vet/script bashing will stop and I can once enjoy NS when it first came out.
</pray>
Bring back the good ol days`
Sleep time <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
we beg, we pray, but it still happends anyways.
You made the point that on one release that the changes were made by the leader of one of the best clans. That’s all and good but:
A. You don’t personally know what they were talking about,
B. You don’t know his mindset about how he thought the changes should be,
C. You don’t know if he was considering both sides of the ball, clanning and regular play
Right now regular play IS the life of the game. Odiously clanning isn’t working out to well for the time being. So until you can get the optimizations in for " clanning " its best to have a more "pubbing" side to the game than an organized play. The best buissness is to keep the largest group happy because if you **** them off for a smaller group well you have just lost a lot of players in this since.
To me this has gone out of control, I personally don’t know how any of this is going to change any thing except get Nem O and the other devs against the use of community testing.
At this point if I was Flayra I would just close any testing done by the community. Stop the communication and move on with development in secret.
Ill admit to the fact that I am not in a clan or anything, but I cant see how clan play is the life or death of a game. Yes the clanning community is small... but the general user base is large and still growing.
Its hard enough to go threw and write a program/game to please a lot of people and a lot of different stiles of play. Then when arrogant people come threw and think that they know every thing and how the game should be and all it just ends up **** off the developer. Lorn in your post granted not all of them did it but what it seems to me you said was that a degree of arrogance came about from the Vets, which in turn caused a rift. You cant test a game with a rift in the middle of your testing team… just doesn’t work. You have to cut the problem child and sYk seems to be the one that caused it with the thread so Vets went out. One bad apple can spoil the bunch, and that’s what sounds like happened there. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm sure you've played a game and seen a really good player and thought - Hey! I'd like to be that good, it aint fair!.
That's why the competetive scene is so important to a game. A player that have played for a long time feels he wants to move up and play against others with equal or surpassing skill, if he cant have this he will quit the game and in the end leave the rest of the populace without a reason to play on. Because it's on everyone's interest to become better, that IS why we all continue to play this game even after the magic has worn off. To become better at it. Dont fool yourselves.
Sidenote: I think the vet program worked out well, and, ironicly, a good number of the PTs became much more skilled after playing with the vets for a few months, myself included. (Thanks guys! <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->)
*Patpats the 'lorn.* Less angst, and more people will listen to you. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Anyways, as far as trying to balance to pub games goes, statistically it really is balanced, with 50%/50% alien/marine wins, and, in all honestly, trying to balance pubs is a bit, well, useless, as a pub can go any way at any time due to the random nature of the teams, one team can be stacked, someone can drop SC's at start, bad commander, good commander, super fades, stupid fades, there are virtually a ludicrous ammount of variables when trying to balance a game where random players come togather with no pretense and try and play against another team of the same nature.
Pretty much everyone has played in a game where one player on one side or the other just completely dominates the opposing team, and, more than likely, someone will yell that whatever that player is doing is overpowered/needs to be nerfed.
Now, if this was a perfect world where every player had exactly the same ammount of skill in all areas, and the same ammount of coordination/etc. this style of balancing would be possible, but, at the moment, it seems someone illogical/impossible to me.
Also, take a look at, for example, 1.04. Everyone screamed marines were overpowered, however, as the version went on, alien wins steadily increased, as stronger marines forced players to become better aliens. It is a natural course of events for players to become better as their opponets do as well, and, for even pub players(Clanners are faster at this) will find ways to counter strategies, many times without someone on the dev team even thinking of them. (Although Grendel, the Euro PT lead ATM, is very good at finding such, TBH.) IMO also, some the best/most fun NS games I can remember playing were in NS versions where a team was 'overpowered', and defeating that undefeatable strat on the opposing team due to good planing/playing/etc.
Anyways, that's my two cents for now, cya' guys later.
-- Khaim - Wind
(Disclaimer: I do not speak for the Dev team in any way shape or form, mmmkay'..? )
The dude who balanced 2.0 into 2.01 almost singlehandedly was HAMBONE. He was also responsible for 2.0 final.
The story:
At the end of 2.0, you had 2 different versions that were out. 2.0, and 2.0z. According to HAMBONE, both were awful. He talked with Flayra over the phone and made the real 2.0. This was released to the public.
This marked the start of HAMBONE's influence with NS. He went on to make 90% or so of 2.01, as well as almost every version right up untill the first beta 1 of 3.0, this is where HAMBONE I believe lost his influence. I believe he lost his influence as he became inactive from the game, but that is irrelevent.
HAMBONE was only responsible for balance changes, by the way. Bugtesting is another topic.
But regardless the whole HAMBONE thing was that you had a player who was a top clanner, probably the best commander at the time, who represented the clan scene and dictated many of the changes.
You can still see HAMBONE's influence with NS to this date, it is a lesser known mode called HAMBONE mode in combat, what is something that HAMBONE thought would be the ideal form of combat. The most recent version of combat actually incopirates some idea's of HAMBONE.
So really I do not see how this whole idea that vet players represent a mentality makes any sense at all. HAMBONE also led one of the most popular NS servers in existence, THE HAMPTONS, which was full almost 24/7 during it's prime, complete with a special favor to give a reserved slot to any player who was in a top ten clan of the time (vet clan).
There were some pretty insane games on there back in the day, including masses of gorge rushes, fade rushes, shotgun rushes, everything you can think of went down in that pub as far as NS play goes. However the pub eventually lost steam after a few months as more and more players realized how biased the game was towards the marines in large game play.
Trust me, clanners understand large game balance, aka "pub" balance. HAMBONE not only led this pub but he also saw much of it firsthand, as well as views from those who were on it.
It is interesting to note that there has never been another popular pub on the scale THE HAMPTONS was, where it was so popular it got to the point unless you were a vet you could not get on, ever, at almost any time of the day. Actually it was pretty insane now that I think about it.
I believe the reason we have never seen a pub like that is because there has never been any changes since 2.01 that would fix large scale games, and as a result clanners still believe (rightly so I may add) that regular NS in large games suck, and pub games in general suck.
As a result, you only see clanners really play combat nowadays, which has many things over regular NS in terms of gameplay (for a pub):
- Individual players have much more power
- Less of a wait for dying
- More balanced, believe it or not
- Faster, and thus appeals as more fun
Regular NS could have these. Hopefully beta 6 will bring these. Now I know I can't name any changes, but this probably can be fixed with an adjusted spawn system. Perhaps a pub with the popularity of THE HAMPTONS may rise again, but the point is it will not untill something fairly major is done.
Furthermore, it is funny that with the majority of the PT's going to the "pubber" populace, we have not seen one beta or even a <b>build</b> which has attempted to fix the aforemented issues. This goes to support my entire idea that better players make the better balancers, because clanners have known about the faults with pub games over a year now (wow, has it really been that long?).
In order for NS to continue to make progress there probably needs someone who complies the list of existing ideas as a sort of moderator between the demand dev's emphasize on attitude, versus the ability skilled players place on preformance. HAMBONE filled this role for awhile, but as he went inactive from playing NS I believe he lost it. Not to say though, I'm sure Flayra and HAMBONE respect each other fairly well. Just a different matter of circumstances arise, it happens all the time, and relations change.
HAMBONE may have suggested the changes for 2.01a/b/c but it was the community <b>en masse</b> which voted with its feet (literally, you would see servers running a or c completely empty while b servers were packed to bursting point).
However HAMBONE did a lot more for NS than he is ever attributed with. Probably because he was a veteran, leader & commander of the top US clan at the time and an all round nice guy. We've seen the attitudes some people have towards those 3 categories.
As Forlorn says beta 5 combat is beginning to look more like HAMBONE mode all the time but lets just keep that between ourselves. Otherwise people might get the idea that good ideas come from people not the labels they attach to those people.
HAMBONE may have suggested the changes for 2.01a/b/c but it was the community <b>en masse</b> which voted with its feet (literally, you would see servers running a or c completely empty while b servers were packed to bursting point).
However HAMBONE did a lot more for NS than he is ever attributed with. Probably because he was a veteran, leader & commander of the top US clan at the time and an all round nice guy. We've seen the attitudes some people have towards those 3 categories.
As Forlorn says beta 5 combat is beginning to look more like HAMBONE mode all the time but lets just keep that between ourselves. Otherwise people might get the idea that good ideas come from people not the labels they attach to those people. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
They voted with their feet, but I'm almost certain each and every build was looked over by HAMBONE at first.
Look at 2.01a with the nerf to the skulk; one of HAMBONE's things he always liked from 1.04 was low skulk HP, because it appealed to him in making a faster game.
So, forlorn, do you care enough about NS to care about the community and eventually perform a greater good to it's development instead of standing around in the forums and yelling about how the devs should listen to you because you are so leet at NS that everything you say <b>must</b> be right? I assure you that you are on the track of being banned totally and completly unless you can change your attitude, and by doing so, you will not only assure that people listen to what you say, but you will also increase your chances of actually helping the game you care about.
Is it time to make a stand, or are you going to childishly hold onto the notion that you can change NS by making everyone on these forums hate you?
So, forlorn, do you care enough about NS to care about the community and eventually perform a greater good to it's development instead of standing around in the forums and yelling about how the devs should listen to you because you are so leet at NS that everything you say <b>must</b> be right? I assure you that you are on the track of being banned totally and completly unless you can change your attitude, and by doing so, you will not only assure that people listen to what you say, but you will also increase your chances of actually helping the game you care about.
So, is it time to make a stand, or are you going to childishly hold onto the notion that you can change NS by making everyone on these forums hate you? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're lack of intelligence amazes me, which is probably the only reason you are an IRC op, and an IRC op at the most.
Lorn is literally speaking.. for I can almost GUARANTEE 100% of the veterens of this game, including myself. There are 4 out of 80 playtesters that I can name off of the top of my head that actually have ANY skill at all
Blue
Keyser
Grendel
User
Pathetic, I know.
Now, lorn has made 4-5 VERY relevent posts about a discussion that has been needing to be talked about for quite some time now, and the ignorance that is thrown out towards those who say "Our PT system is not good" or "Our PT's themselves aren't good" is something you would HARDLY expect from a community of gamers amongst a game that is BOUND to go places.
This game is very unbalanced at the moment, and since I started actually paying attention to the game, it's physics, and what it takes to be a good player in late 2.01.. it HAS been unbalanced. You tell me that why a group of 12, 14, 16 or even 20-32 players of EQUAL skill can play a game, and the marines are a guaranteed win 99% of the time. That's not what I hear happens in the playtest though. And the most recent thing I've heard, was being able to move freely while you have cloaking, including bunnyhopping. <i>THIS</i> IS THE KIND OF **** YOU IMPLEMENT TO BALANCE A GAME?
Now, how can you say that lorn is destroying the community with his elitest attitude, by stating that our playtest system sucks? Why the hell would you throw around accusations toward a skilled player of the game? Is it because he has a point you don't like? Or is it because he is better than you? Is it because you feel that your e-power is at stake as an IRC op?
You complain about vets being **** and not wanting to help. When it is a bunch of VETERENS that run NSLearn, which is VERY successful, and look at the NSGuide program, founded by one of your own, which has failed horribly, and LOOK! THEY GOT ICONS!! WOO!
I can guarantee you 100% that a veteren player of this game, that has been playing with clans, not necessarily in them, but playing with them, and knows the good players would care about this game MUCH more than any random pubber who sent in an e-mail to be a PT.
Now lorn has said NOTHING here about him being leet at all, other than the fact that he is better than the majority of the PT's which ANY veteren can vouche for.
Hell, if you KNEW anything about the community, you'd know half of which I was telling you, but you argue cases that are one sided and what you think are good for the community, but truth be told, you are merely insulting veteren players, and pushing to kill the community further by allowing the game to keep destroying itself.
GG!
The problem has begun.
[edit]
Those who always agree are most often considered sociable and nice persons. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Forlorn say what he think about the game, and it does not correspond with your view. Therefore he is - I quote - "I assure you that you are on the track of being banned totally".
That doesnt seem very fair to me. Freedom of speech and a multitude of different opinions ftw.
This is simply an observation on my part, I decided a while back that this thread had grown into too much of a screaming match to be worth actually posting full thoughts in.
Just because someone, in this case, Forlorn, is not well liked in the NS Community does NOT mean he can't bring up good points. Hell, I'd be the first to admit that Forlorn could be a total jackass at times, but sometimes what he says actually makes sense. Ideas should be taken fairly from anyone, from the lowest skilled player to the most elite of players if the game is to go anywhere. Denouncing ideas just because of who the person is is totally unfair and a huge step back for the community. I think it's time the community try to change and try to shake all these labels and whatnot that is heavily impeding the game's development.
When it comes down to it, though, you can't be accepting ideas for future builds from an unskilled player, you can take the ideas and mold them accordingly, unless their idea actually DOES make sense.
Eliteism SHOULD triumph over favoritism if you want a business, or game for that matter, to succeed.
Scythe: actually caring about the hoardes of raving idiots saying they know the game better than the people that made it
Me:Who do you think knows teh game balance better
Me:Flayra, who probably hsn't played NS in decades
Me:Or a competitive player that plays at least 2 hours a day, has seasons of CAL experience in competitive play, and understands how the current balance is
Me:I think the competitive player would therefore understand the game better in it's current form than one of the developers
Scythe:lorn and that i-know-everything-clanner-theadj, you are aware that flay and co have a tracking system set up by which they can view the outcome of every ns game played, along with the number of players in the game?
Me:And that makes them knowledgable because they play every day *how* exactly?
Me:Don't insult me Scythe|Bed, I didn't insult you
Scythe:you insult me by existing, i can't stand arrogance
Me:I'm arrogant because I have an opinion that's different than yours?
Scythe- rolls eyes and wanders off to write up his gyroscope praticial
So this is how I get treated by having a differing opinion on something from one of the "High standing community members". Right. Despite the fact that I am not only the commander for the best clan of the past two CAL seasons, but also one of the most active NSGuides, an active member of NSLearn (We keep records for review by the Development Team by the way, they're available if you speak to Mustang or FireWater - They show the trends of how active we are, what we teach, etc). I go out of my way to help people as often as possible, and the response I recieve from someone that does nothing more than idle IRC in the official channel and "moderate", if that's what you call treating people like this, is downright hostile. Outstanding, way to treat one of the outstanding competitive community members. Attention "important community people": The competitive players are NOT OUT TO GET YOU OR RUIN THE COMMUNITY. We probably care as much as you do, because we play this game more than we'd like to (I can personally attribute the F I will get in Reason and Revolution to NS), but we care a lot. That's why we say things like this. Do some people get a little upset, arrogant, or act like ****? Sure, but some of you are matching us **** for tat. I don't tend to act like an **** often, but I can step up to the plate and match some of you pretty well.
Just because we have a different opinion than you doesn't mean suddenly we're "ruining the community". Get off your high horse and recognize who is doing something in the community. You playtest the next version? Awesome. I spend 2 hours a day helping new players and players wanting to enter the competitive scene overcome ignorance and lies to understand how the game really is. I field 5 questions a day in #NSLearn about scripting because they couldn't ask here and get a straight answer if they wanted one, and most of the questions get the answer from me that they don't need a script to do what they're asking (Many of them get the impression that leap/bite and other garbage actually works - mainly from this forum). I do the field work that keeps the game alive, and there are MANY, MANY other people like me, and probably a good bit that do even more. FireWater may have a "bad attitude" sometimes, but he cares about the game, and I see him do nothing but help new players anytime he's around. Mustang has the best aim in the game, everyone's aim pales in comparison to his, yet he helps newbies learn how to manuveur as marine pretty often. Annihilator and myself help people understand the mechanics of competitive commanding. Not only do we help these people and spend a lot of time doing it (anyone that has read some of the articles on NSLearn, or is involved in any way with the current NSGuide work under way understands the time involved), we also keep our clans alive. Anyone in Exigent will tell you I'm probably the only reason we're alive right now, and it will stay that way as long as I'm involved.
I am not some ignorant **** clan vet that's probably 16-18 years old and knows everything. I am married, I am nearly 20 years old. I leave in January to go overseas because I <b>volunteered</b> to go go Afghanistan with another Army unit that isn't even my own, because they needed people. I understand what sacrifice is, I understand how life works. I don't really care about someone's e-power, I simply want to play NS and help others enjoy it too, and I care about the game. It just absolutely boggles my mind that some ignorant people who either rarely play NS, probably have never played it competitively, or haven't played since like 2.01 was the standard can treat people like me or any other serious, active competitive player with anything but RESPECT, because that is what we deserve. We play this game more than anyone else, we care more than anyone else, we do more than anyone else. There are about 5-10 people that play competitively right now that are much better players because they asked for my help, and I gave it to them. Scythe and the others like you: What have YOU done to help anyone besides yourselves? Me and my kind will keep NS alive as long as it's possible because we care about the game, and invite anyone that wishes to learn to play as we do, if only they will listen and understand. Please, instead of being arrogant yourselves and hold us in contempt for having views other than your own, think about what's slightly more important and help us improve this game.
Its pretty hard to guess what the Devs think and realy are like untill you hear from them or have them post thier stance in person. Thats just my belief. I have a hard time beliving something unless I see it for myself or hear it from someone I belive is very trust worthy.
I would like see a post from thier PR person conserning the opinions stated in here. but Eh.
To put it in perspective. PLEASE dont "read into this" too much. But basicly its like watching a Extreme Lefty talk to a Extreme Righty. each one trying to convince eachother who is right, and who is wrong. To simplify it more its like to kids going "IS SO!. IS NOT. IS SO. IS NOT" and now each side is getting more "friends" into the argument.
There have been some very nice post that brought up intellegent arguments, but those will probrably be lost into the wind with the amount of bashing and flaming, and just bad arguements/debates. But thats just the way it is or so it seems.
[edit] I have to say, that was a pretty nice post adj.
I hope some of those IRC op/moderators people aren't our actual Devs. If they are, god help us all, NS is behind hope then.
Blue
Keyser
Grendel
User
Pathetic, I know. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nah man, Grendel just screams at people over the mics.
A more accurate list would replace Magitek with Grendel.
I hope some of those IRC op/moderators people aren't our actual Devs. If they are, god help us all, NS is behind hope then.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
:-/ I ddn't think they are
Let the dogs of pride be with you on your journey through the thousand seas.