First of all, I don't see it as a serious problem if somebody starts a thread about one of the changes and people start going back and forth about whether or not they like it. Discussion is what this forum is for, and obviously somebody might not like the idea behind the announcement. Nobody's forcing you to listen to their opinions. It seems like the main fear of the devs is that people might form opinions of the changes before they're released; to that I say, so what? It gives them something to talk about. They were going to be arguing about something anyway, it might as well be relevant.
In my opinion, in order to counteract the obvious benefits to keeping the community informed, the drawbacks would have to be rather significant. All I'm hearing is that we're afraid they might not like the idea, or they'll like it a lot and then be disappointed when it's gone. Well, they'll survive. It's not the job of the devs to babysit the sensibilities of the community. As long as the potential backlash isn't such that it would seriously disrupt the forums or the game, I think the pros simply outweigh the cons. Word is going to spread about the big changes that were omitted once the patch is released anyway, so the only real difference is during development, when it will be little more than discussion on the forums.
If you're worried about how "official" announcements will be interpreted, why not at least ditch the NDA? That way only people who are really interested will look for information tidbits in the forums, and it will be easier for them to understand the context of a private beta test rather than a feature announcement.
If we were to use the previous NS changelogs as a base to make predictions for B6's changelog it would look something like this:
- Grenade explosion bug fixed. Marines who are crouching while using cl_pitchup 99999 will no longer expeirence a .02 second delay. - Lerks walking speed increased from .05 to .06 - "+movedown" no longer increase speed on ramps - Grenade Launcher will now overheat after one and a half gernades have been shot after a time interval on 1.24 seconds to prevent gernade spam. - Armory upgrade speed decreased by one millisecond - Heavy Armor now welds .80 seconds quicker - The following races will now be in available to the TSA and they will be chosen for you at random: Mexican Italian German Austrilian - Parasite does 11 damage - Res nodes now have an antenna - 1 pixel on the onos, located between the second and thrid toe, has had it's color changed. It was 008000 but now we are up in arms about 008001 or 008002. This difference could change the game as we know it.
<!--QuoteBegin-SentrySteve+Oct 18 2004, 04:16 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SentrySteve @ Oct 18 2004, 04:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I think forlorn has 6,011 posts too many ^_~
If we were to use the previous NS changelogs as a base to make predictions for B6's changelog it would look something like this:
- Grenade explosion bug fixed. Marines who are crouching while using cl_pitchup 99999 will no longer expeirence a .02 second delay. - Lerks walking speed increased from .05 to .06 - "+movedown" no longer increase speed on ramps - Grenade Launcher will now overheat after one and a half gernades have been shot after a time interval on 1.24 seconds to prevent gernade spam. - Armory upgrade speed decreased by one millisecond - Heavy Armor now welds .80 seconds quicker - The following races will now be in available to the TSA and they will be chosen for you at random: Mexican Italian German Austrilian - Parasite does 11 damage - Res nodes now have an antenna - 1 pixel on the onos, located between the second and thrid toe, has had it's color changed. It was 008000 but now we are up in arms about 008001 or 008002. This difference could change the game as we know it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Great Idea!!
ZunniThe best thing to happen to I&S in a long whileJoin Date: 2002-11-26Member: 10016Members
Ok, not trying to pull rank but I will
I am the PR person for NS, and as such it's my (along with Nem and Flay's) decision (mostly mine), Nem and I have both said the way things are going to work in our previous points, this is due to how we want our general public to receive information (correct or otherwise), please respect our decision.. I don't know another mod that gives you 5-6 changelog snippets before release, and certainly not during simple playtests.. Have faith, things will be be revealed and so I don't have to keep track of what we said and how we said it (for rebuttal purposes later), we will be working from a base of "these changes are 100% in," as specified in my announcement...
When I joined the team there was the majority of the B5 change log finalized and ready to roll, so it made my job easy, grab a few objects and post.. You'll notice I did this extensively (like twice a week) before B5 was released.
We are at a different situation now, we are in the babysteps of testing this, and the game is likely to see some incredibly different variations of balance changes before we are through.. I will not be communicating these period...
However, I will probably start with some of the map changes (as those are finalized) and be sure to include some videos/images so you can see exactly what's happened from present to future..
Also, note, this is NOT B5... There was 4-5 months of silence or bad information, this has been dropped to 5 weeks since we completed B5.. Have some respect for the process..
<!--QuoteBegin-Nemesis Zero+Oct 18 2004, 09:20 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nemesis Zero @ Oct 18 2004, 09:20 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Oh, so the only important thing is to say something to make people happy, correct?
OK then: We're implementing the flamethrower for Beta 6. Along with a sixth alien class. Oh, and before I forget: BUS is actually a new graphic engine based on holographic algorithms. You see, since we may not make direct profit with NS, it being a mod and all, we decided to develop a holoprojector and will sell it at 15 bucks a piece.
Last time I checked, you wanted to hear about what will <i>really</i> be in Beta 6, and that can just not be said for certain at this point. Yes, we've got test candidates out, we do play them, so there's a tentative changelog. But <i>no</i> item on it is final. None. Some stuff still has to be added, some other might be cut again. There's nothing I, or anyone else, could tell you that we could guarantee will make the cut, and thus, we won't start alluding to stuff - this is something we learned the hard way from BUS and the obstacles that hit its path.
I can not stop others from creating rumors - that is, I can, but my conduct as admin doesn't permit me to ban people for spurting stuff they have no real insight into without of giving them a warning first. It's your decision whether to listen or not, though. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> *Ahem* <i>and</i> not to mention:
<i>Only</i> Flayra gets paid. The rest of us are <i>all </i>volunteers. You can't demand someone to volunteer. lol <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
~edit~
Hmm... but then again I'd love to see a more expansive team. One can't have too many helpers.
<span style='font-family:Courier'><u>fact</u></span>: Coders, PR guys, Forum Mods, Modelers, Skinners, Fan Fic Authors, etc. all have one of the following (or both) in common: <b>Their love for the game Their love for the community</b>
<!--QuoteBegin-SentrySteve+Oct 18 2004, 04:16 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SentrySteve @ Oct 18 2004, 04:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> - 1 pixel on the onos, located between the second and thrid toe, has had it's color changed. It was 008000 but now we are up in arms about 008001 or 008002. This difference could change the game as we know it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Are we talking about the second toe from the right, or the second toe from the left? I do believe with this change, we'll have a perfectly balanced game.
<!--QuoteBegin-Us3r+Oct 18 2004, 09:24 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Us3r @ Oct 18 2004, 09:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Are we talking about the second toe from the right, or the second toe from the left? I do believe with this change, we'll have a perfectly balanced game. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> From the left.
<!--QuoteBegin-SentrySteve+Oct 18 2004, 04:25 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SentrySteve @ Oct 18 2004, 04:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Us3r+Oct 18 2004, 09:24 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Us3r @ Oct 18 2004, 09:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Are we talking about the second toe from the right, or the second toe from the left? I do believe with this change, we'll have a perfectly balanced game. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> From the left. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Then this needs to be discussed for many months.
Can you atleast tell us if the vents in veil have been fix <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I basically find the moderators saying a long version of, "We don't want to say anything because it might be talked about and/or discussed by people."
And the extreme changes that moderators keep referring too (rocket launchers and bowser-skulks) is definitely not a valid point. Of course something so extremely wierd and just plain bizarre is going to be discussed and flamed, it makes no sense. But if you say something like: o Skulk Health increased to 75 o Skulk Armor increased to 15 I doubt any people will go absolutely crazy, for instance, swallow a sword, sell their soul to the devil, cut their hair for charity, and then give themself an injection of pure nicotine into their flesh as a sacrifice to the siege cannon.
<span style='color:white'>Related post removed.</span>
<s>Was I in this discussion? *confused*</s> ah, nevermind <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-kabab+Oct 18 2004, 08:33 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (kabab @ Oct 18 2004, 08:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Can you atleast tell us if the vents in veil have been fix <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> They have, it's in the BT. That is a fact, I think.
I can wait, and by wait I mean torture a fellow playtester. <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' /><!--endemo-->
EpidemicDark Force GorgeJoin Date: 2003-06-29Member: 17781Members
It was a cheap shot at you, tihihhi <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Invader Scoot+Oct 18 2004, 04:55 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Invader Scoot @ Oct 18 2004, 04:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I basically find the moderators saying a long version of, "We don't want to say anything because it might be talked about and/or discussed by people."
And the extreme changes that moderators keep referring too (rocket launchers and bowser-skulks) is definitely not a valid point. Of course something so extremely wierd and just plain bizarre is going to be discussed and flamed, it makes no sense. But if you say something like: o Skulk Health increased to 75 o Skulk Armor increased to 15 I doubt any people will go absolutely crazy, for instance, swallow a sword, sell their soul to the devil, cut their hair for charity, and then give themself an injection of pure nicotine into their flesh as a sacrifice to the siege cannon. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> As all the devs/PR guys have stated... NOTHING is going to be finalized until we get closer to release. Even "minor" changes like these would need extensive testing to make sure they don't mess up the game too bad <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-ChimpZealot+Oct 18 2004, 08:46 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ChimpZealot @ Oct 18 2004, 08:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Invader Scoot+Oct 18 2004, 04:55 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Invader Scoot @ Oct 18 2004, 04:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I basically find the moderators saying a long version of, "We don't want to say anything because it might be talked about and/or discussed by people."
And the extreme changes that moderators keep referring too (rocket launchers and bowser-skulks) is definitely not a valid point. Of course something so extremely wierd and just plain bizarre is going to be discussed and flamed, it makes no sense. But if you say something like: o Skulk Health increased to 75 o Skulk Armor increased to 15 I doubt any people will go absolutely crazy, for instance, swallow a sword, sell their soul to the devil, cut their hair for charity, and then give themself an injection of pure nicotine into their flesh as a sacrifice to the siege cannon. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> As all the devs/PR guys have stated... NOTHING is going to be finalized until we get closer to release. Even "minor" changes like these would need extensive testing to make sure they don't mess up the game too bad <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> But if they said they were testing something like this, and then it didn't go in, people wouldn't go crazy over it. It's a small change, and giving out that kind of info wouldn't create the huge problems that could be caused by letting people know that they are trying firebreathing skulks. In other words, the examples used were unrealistic.
tankefuglOne Script To Rule Them All...Trondheim, NorwayJoin Date: 2002-11-14Member: 8641Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
<i>Oooooh, tell me tell me tell me!</i> <b>No.</b> <i>Awwww, comeooooon! Tellmepleaaaaaase.</i> <b>No.</b> <i>Why noooooot? Comeoncomeoncomeon tellmequick!</i> <b>No. Wait for christmas.</b>
Comments
In my opinion, in order to counteract the obvious benefits to keeping the community informed, the drawbacks would have to be rather significant. All I'm hearing is that we're afraid they might not like the idea, or they'll like it a lot and then be disappointed when it's gone. Well, they'll survive. It's not the job of the devs to babysit the sensibilities of the community. As long as the potential backlash isn't such that it would seriously disrupt the forums or the game, I think the pros simply outweigh the cons. Word is going to spread about the big changes that were omitted once the patch is released anyway, so the only real difference is during development, when it will be little more than discussion on the forums.
If you're worried about how "official" announcements will be interpreted, why not at least ditch the NDA? That way only people who are really interested will look for information tidbits in the forums, and it will be easier for them to understand the context of a private beta test rather than a feature announcement.
If we were to use the previous NS changelogs as a base to make predictions for B6's changelog it would look something like this:
- Grenade explosion bug fixed. Marines who are crouching while using cl_pitchup 99999 will no longer expeirence a .02 second delay.
- Lerks walking speed increased from .05 to .06
- "+movedown" no longer increase speed on ramps
- Grenade Launcher will now overheat after one and a half gernades have been shot after a time interval on 1.24 seconds to prevent gernade spam.
- Armory upgrade speed decreased by one millisecond
- Heavy Armor now welds .80 seconds quicker
- The following races will now be in available to the TSA and they will be chosen for you at random:
Mexican
Italian
German
Austrilian
- Parasite does 11 damage
- Res nodes now have an antenna
- 1 pixel on the onos, located between the second and thrid toe, has had it's color changed. It was 008000 but now we are up in arms about 008001 or 008002. This difference could change the game as we know it.
If we were to use the previous NS changelogs as a base to make predictions for B6's changelog it would look something like this:
- Grenade explosion bug fixed. Marines who are crouching while using cl_pitchup 99999 will no longer expeirence a .02 second delay.
- Lerks walking speed increased from .05 to .06
- "+movedown" no longer increase speed on ramps
- Grenade Launcher will now overheat after one and a half gernades have been shot after a time interval on 1.24 seconds to prevent gernade spam.
- Armory upgrade speed decreased by one millisecond
- Heavy Armor now welds .80 seconds quicker
- The following races will now be in available to the TSA and they will be chosen for you at random:
Mexican
Italian
German
Austrilian
- Parasite does 11 damage
- Res nodes now have an antenna
- 1 pixel on the onos, located between the second and thrid toe, has had it's color changed. It was 008000 but now we are up in arms about 008001 or 008002. This difference could change the game as we know it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Great Idea!!
I am the PR person for NS, and as such it's my (along with Nem and Flay's) decision (mostly mine), Nem and I have both said the way things are going to work in our previous points, this is due to how we want our general public to receive information (correct or otherwise), please respect our decision.. I don't know another mod that gives you 5-6 changelog snippets before release, and certainly not during simple playtests.. Have faith, things will be be revealed and so I don't have to keep track of what we said and how we said it (for rebuttal purposes later), we will be working from a base of "these changes are 100% in," as specified in my announcement...
When I joined the team there was the majority of the B5 change log finalized and ready to roll, so it made my job easy, grab a few objects and post.. You'll notice I did this extensively (like twice a week) before B5 was released.
We are at a different situation now, we are in the babysteps of testing this, and the game is likely to see some incredibly different variations of balance changes before we are through.. I will not be communicating these period...
However, I will probably start with some of the map changes (as those are finalized) and be sure to include some videos/images so you can see exactly what's happened from present to future..
Also, note, this is NOT B5... There was 4-5 months of silence or bad information, this has been dropped to 5 weeks since we completed B5.. Have some respect for the process..
OK then: We're implementing the flamethrower for Beta 6. Along with a sixth alien class. Oh, and before I forget: BUS is actually a new graphic engine based on holographic algorithms. You see, since we may not make direct profit with NS, it being a mod and all, we decided to develop a holoprojector and will sell it at 15 bucks a piece.
Last time I checked, you wanted to hear about what will <i>really</i> be in Beta 6, and that can just not be said for certain at this point. Yes, we've got test candidates out, we do play them, so there's a tentative changelog. But <i>no</i> item on it is final. None. Some stuff still has to be added, some other might be cut again. There's nothing I, or anyone else, could tell you that we could guarantee will make the cut, and thus, we won't start alluding to stuff - this is something we learned the hard way from BUS and the obstacles that hit its path.
I can not stop others from creating rumors - that is, I can, but my conduct as admin doesn't permit me to ban people for spurting stuff they have no real insight into without of giving them a warning first. It's your decision whether to listen or not, though. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
*Ahem* <i>and</i> not to mention:
<i>Only</i> Flayra gets paid. The rest of us are <i>all </i>volunteers. You can't demand someone to volunteer. lol <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
~edit~
Hmm... but then again I'd love to see a more expansive team. One can't have too many helpers.
<span style='font-family:Courier'><u>fact</u></span>: Coders, PR guys, Forum Mods, Modelers, Skinners, Fan Fic Authors, etc. all have one of the following (or both) in common:
<b>Their love for the game
Their love for the community</b>
Are we talking about the second toe from the right, or the second toe from the left? I do believe with this change, we'll have a perfectly balanced game.
From the left.
From the left. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then this needs to be discussed for many months.
And the extreme changes that moderators keep referring too (rocket launchers and bowser-skulks) is definitely not a valid point. Of course something so extremely wierd and just plain bizarre is going to be discussed and flamed, it makes no sense. But if you say something like:
o Skulk Health increased to 75
o Skulk Armor increased to 15
I doubt any people will go absolutely crazy, for instance, swallow a sword, sell their soul to the devil, cut their hair for charity, and then give themself an injection of pure nicotine into their flesh as a sacrifice to the siege cannon.
<s>Was I in this discussion? *confused*</s> ah, nevermind <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
They have, it's in the BT. That is a fact, I think.
<!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I can wait, and by wait I mean torture a fellow playtester. <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' /><!--endemo-->
That's what I'm wondering as well.
What a waste. No wonder why I don't play NS anymore.
And the extreme changes that moderators keep referring too (rocket launchers and bowser-skulks) is definitely not a valid point. Of course something so extremely wierd and just plain bizarre is going to be discussed and flamed, it makes no sense. But if you say something like:
o Skulk Health increased to 75
o Skulk Armor increased to 15
I doubt any people will go absolutely crazy, for instance, swallow a sword, sell their soul to the devil, cut their hair for charity, and then give themself an injection of pure nicotine into their flesh as a sacrifice to the siege cannon. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As all the devs/PR guys have stated... NOTHING is going to be finalized until we get closer to release. Even "minor" changes like these would need extensive testing to make sure they don't mess up the game too bad <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
And the extreme changes that moderators keep referring too (rocket launchers and bowser-skulks) is definitely not a valid point. Of course something so extremely wierd and just plain bizarre is going to be discussed and flamed, it makes no sense. But if you say something like:
o Skulk Health increased to 75
o Skulk Armor increased to 15
I doubt any people will go absolutely crazy, for instance, swallow a sword, sell their soul to the devil, cut their hair for charity, and then give themself an injection of pure nicotine into their flesh as a sacrifice to the siege cannon. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As all the devs/PR guys have stated... NOTHING is going to be finalized until we get closer to release. Even "minor" changes like these would need extensive testing to make sure they don't mess up the game too bad <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
But if they said they were testing something like this, and then it didn't go in, people wouldn't go crazy over it. It's a small change, and giving out that kind of info wouldn't create the huge problems that could be caused by letting people know that they are trying firebreathing skulks. In other words, the examples used were unrealistic.
<b>No.</b>
<i>Awwww, comeooooon! Tellmepleaaaaaase.</i>
<b>No.</b>
<i>Why noooooot? Comeoncomeoncomeon tellmequick!</i>
<b>No. Wait for christmas.</b>