<!--QuoteBegin-Amplifier+Nov 13 2004, 06:45 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Amplifier @ Nov 13 2004, 06:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Necro, stop pretending that pub admins KNOW what scripts are/do, THEY DONT, AND WE HAVE PROOF. Open your eyes and stop using that argument over and over. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> <b>Amplifier</b>, stop pretending that you KNOW you aren't arrogant, YOU ARE, AND YOU ARE PROOF.
<!--QuoteBegin-john_sheu+Nov 13 2004, 08:32 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (john_sheu @ Nov 13 2004, 08:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Amplifier+Nov 13 2004, 06:45 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Amplifier @ Nov 13 2004, 06:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Necro, stop pretending that pub admins KNOW what scripts are/do, THEY DONT, AND WE HAVE PROOF. Open your eyes and stop using that argument over and over. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <b>Amplifier</b>, stop pretending that you KNOW you aren't arrogant, YOU ARE, AND YOU ARE PROOF.
Thank you. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Amplifier is probably the least arrogant person that I've ever known, stuff it please.
<!--QuoteBegin-john_sheu+Nov 13 2004, 08:32 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (john_sheu @ Nov 13 2004, 08:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Amplifier+Nov 13 2004, 06:45 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Amplifier @ Nov 13 2004, 06:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Necro, stop pretending that pub admins KNOW what scripts are/do, THEY DONT, AND WE HAVE PROOF. Open your eyes and stop using that argument over and over. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <b>Amplifier</b>, stop pretending that you KNOW you aren't arrogant, YOU ARE, AND YOU ARE PROOF.
Thank you. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> How is claiming you have proof of something arrogant?
Darwin: I say species evolve through a process I call natural selection.
Some-other-guy: That's so arrogant.
Darwin: But I have proof, look. It's all written down in my notes here. See, I went to the Galapagos....
Some-other-guy: You can't say you <u>know</u> something to be true. You're in the minority, therefore whenever you say you know more than the majority you're obviously arrogant.
1: tis a thread <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> 2: generated a lot of heated discussion in the community, also obviously touched upon an issue which has the community split into two or more sides....
<!--QuoteBegin-john_sheu+Nov 14 2004, 02:15 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (john_sheu @ Nov 14 2004, 02:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You are implying that <i>most</i> pub admins do not understand scripts, and therefore are inferior to you. I beg to differ. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Corrected
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Nov 13 2004, 06:06 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Nov 13 2004, 06:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Also please point to me why a PT on that server (Jojoshua and NSGuide leader) did nothing to educate anyone<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> it is NOT the responsibility of PT's to educate people about how NS is played, in fact they can get in trouble if they say too much about NS. So who cares if he is a PT?
The NSGuide part is what you should have ragged on him about, since they are there to educate and help newer players on how to play the game. However the guides don't go around accosting people and forcing them to listen. If someone has a specific need, or just wants some advise, the guides are there to help.
What was Jojoshua to do?? Maybe the pubbers don't know how you have been playing NS for ever, nor do they know how good of a team Su is, HOWEVER they being general pubbers, should not need to know that. Should he have said "Forlon PWNS J00 NUBS!"? Last time I checked laying out the red carpet for top players is NOT in the guides mission statement. Understanding of NS is one of Jojoshua's many strengths, and he has much wisdom to dole out. In that whole condump, not once did I see "Hey Jojo I need some help on bunnyhopping, can you help me?" or anything to that effect. Simply put the PT/NSG you spoke of, was playing NS, and how is that against any kind of rule? If you would have said "Hey can you vouch for me? They think I am cheating!" maybe he would have helped you out. But you did not ask for help, even from an experienced clanner such as Jojoshua, who, I am sure has suffered many hackusations himself. You knew what was coming(in the form of a ban) and elected to take one for the team to further your argument.
FORLORN, if you can not find top grade players on a reputible server, then you must expect to see this kind of thing. The average pubber CAN NOT hang, so to preserve the fun for EVERYONE they may have to dump you, to preserve the experience for ALL the other players who are not killing the WHOLE TEAM over and over. I don't think you are a cheater, BUT how can that be fun for the other people? And on your side, what are you to do? turn down your skill so you can play with the other kids? that is not fair to you, so sadly just like sooo many top players, attitude problem or not, you will be burned at the stake, even if its wrong.
Ok that is all the thinking my brain will allow for one day.
PS I am NOT flaming I am giving an HONEST analysis, of why this crap happens to you. However, I also know from experience that you have a bit of a rep, and it may not take a ton to set a server op off.
N stuff <span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'> SM5 </span>
<!--QuoteBegin-[FFT]SpaceMoogle5+Nov 14 2004, 05:03 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([FFT]SpaceMoogle5 @ Nov 14 2004, 05:03 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Nov 13 2004, 06:06 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Nov 13 2004, 06:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Also please point to me why a PT on that server (Jojoshua and NSGuide leader) did nothing to educate anyone<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> it is NOT the responsibility of PT's to educate people about how NS is played, in fact they can get in trouble if they say too much about NS. So who cares if he is a PT?
The NSGuide part is what you should have ragged on him about, since they are there to educate and help newer players on how to play the game. However the guides don't go around accosting people and forcing them to listen. If someone has a specific need, or just wants some advise, the guides are there to help.
What was Jojoshua to do?? Maybe the pubbers don't know how you have been playing NS for ever, nor do they know how good of a team Su is, HOWEVER they being general pubbers, should not need to know that. Should he have said "Forlon PWNS J00 NUBS!"? Last time I checked laying out the red carpet for top players is NOT in the guides mission statement. Understanding of NS is one of Jojoshua's many strengths, and he has much wisdom to dole out. In that whole condump, not once did I see "Hey Jojo I need some help on bunnyhopping, can you help me?" or anything to that effect. Simply put the PT/NSG you spoke of, was playing NS, and how is that against any kind of rule? If you would have said "Hey can you vouch for me? They think I am cheating!" maybe he would have helped you out. But you did not ask for help, even from an experienced clanner such as Jojoshua, who, I am sure has suffered many hackusations himself. You knew what was coming(in the form of a ban) and elected to take one for the team to further your argument.
FORLORN, if you can not find top grade players on a reputible server, then you must expect to see this kind of thing. The average pubber CAN NOT hang, so to preserve the fun for EVERYONE they may have to dump you, to preserve the experience for ALL the other players who are not killing the WHOLE TEAM over and over. I don't think you are a cheater, BUT how can that be fun for the other people? And on your side, what are you to do? turn down your skill so you can play with the other kids? that is not fair to you, so sadly just like sooo many top players, attitude problem or not, you will be burned at the stake, even if its wrong.
Ok that is all the thinking my brain will allow for one day.
PS I am NOT flaming I am giving an HONEST analysis, of why this crap happens to you. However, I also know from experience that you have a bit of a rep, and it may not take a ton to set a server op off.
That log does demonstrate an attitude I see more now then ever and has really started to unnerve me as of late. I refer of course to those who believe: "You can do something which I cannot, therefor you hack."
<!--QuoteBegin-KaMiKaZe!!!+Nov 14 2004, 12:47 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (KaMiKaZe!!! @ Nov 14 2004, 12:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> That log does demonstrate an attitude I see more now then ever and has really started to unnerve me as of late. I refer of course to those who believe: "You can do something which I cannot, therefor you hack."
Too tired to elaborate. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Haha apparently there are cheats you can download that control your player and make him leap around the heads of marines and then land three straight bites on him, then leap around and do it again on another guy. Pretty elaborate hacks!
But yeah, in DoD or CoD servers, a player with a recognized clan tag getting a ridiculous k:d doesn't generate the hackcusations that a guy with a vet symbol (the symbol means you should give the benefit of a doubt that the guy is actually good) gets after rocking a server.
<!--QuoteBegin-john_sheu+Nov 14 2004, 02:15 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (john_sheu @ Nov 14 2004, 02:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You are implying that <i>all</i> pub admins do not understand scripts, and therefore are inferior to you. I beg to differ. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That is what I have been saying, along with numerious other people forever. Yes, it is true, we have proof of it. Want more? Pub admins DONT KNOW, they NEED TOO. Sure maybe some know like Forlorn said, but most don't.
<!--QuoteBegin-KaMiKaZe!!!+Nov 14 2004, 02:04 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (KaMiKaZe!!! @ Nov 14 2004, 02:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I was a pub admin =[ <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I remember back in the day the FFT clan would debate about whether or not it was legit to use a script like
bind x "impulse 8; say_team I NEED TEH MEDS COMMANDO!"
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Nov 14 2004, 01:07 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Nov 14 2004, 01:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-KaMiKaZe!!!+Nov 14 2004, 02:04 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (KaMiKaZe!!! @ Nov 14 2004, 02:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I was a pub admin =[ <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I remember back in the day the FFT clan would debate about whether or not it was legit to use a script like
bind x "impulse 8; say_team I NEED TEH MEDS COMMANDO!" <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> And hud_fastswitch 1
Regarding the post by Forlo that ended with a ban.
You might have been lucky, that you were not banned long before. I was banned just last week, for dominating a 3vs3 as a skulk. There was no comment, nothing just a plain ban, after i made about 12 kills in a row as cele/focus/regen/cara/leap skulk. After that i have been trying to play on clan severs most of the time.
So it just all depends on the admins, kill him 10 times in a row and you might get a kick, cause he is in a bad mood. There are humans nontheless.
Yeah, well, it's kinda human nature for a person with power to use it when he's gettin **** off by someone else......kinda like what happened to forlorn, me thinks <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Why would me beating you embarass you? You beating me wouldn't embarass me, so I don't see how it should be reversed. Second, what does it prove about our viewpoints? Ability to push buttons does not equate to an understanding of various problems and how to solve them. So lets set aside the inferiority complex and move into how to attempt to solve the problems at hand, eh?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If I want to educate a community I don't make 1 server out of 500 that will promote my idea, and that many people will dismiss outright (not play on) or not even care if mp_bs is on or off (many of the pubbers). I do it by making a thread and talking to the people. It's cheaper, faster, and more productive. Saying "go make 1 server out of 500+ to change everyone's mind" is like saying "if you don't like Bush, run for president yourself!" Seriously. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You make one server and you and like-minded people play on it. If there's such a demand as we seem to think there is, then that server will become 2, then 4, and so on and so forth. If the servers are any good then people will want to play on them, and the community can use them as good examples of "higher tier" play.
So yes from the mustard seed grows the largest tree.
Second, on an entirely OT note, yes you should run for president yourself. 3rd party candidates often run with a specific "issue" and that alone will force it into the wider political arena. Consider local senatorial elections where a small local who doesn't want his hospital shut will quickly have all candidates talking about how they'd address the problem. The candidate might not win but the more respected candidate who supported him can hoover up all those votes.
Forlorn -
Arg man I said pm me, haha, no need to post the whole thing.
I think the hackusation is laughable, as they always are, and I do feel your pain because its happened to me (not in NS, largely because as a marine I don't get given a GL which is my preferred tool of virtual death), at the same time I think you were cruising for a banning anyway and that was the easiest reason they could give. Banning more likely relating to spawn camping or from the looks of it severe skill stacking. And not a lot of people enjoy being overwhelmingly skill stacked.
Having too many kills.. is a side point. I know when I've went on a lower skill server and got cheap kills I've found it very unsatisfactory, I play MP so that I can face challenging opponents. Otherwise I'd be facing bots. I go elsewhere and get my challenge. Realise that some people don't like being on the receiving end of a skill stack. Yeah its not fair etc etc but thats why people need to create these higher tier servers so that noone is having their game ruined. Consider -
Your game is ruined by continual kick bans for skill Their game is ruined by someone of blatantly higher skill entering and wiping the floor with the entire enemy team single handed. The enemy team don't like it, and I'm sure SOME members of your team don't enjoy playing second fiddle to the star player.. not when NS is a game of TEAMWORK.
Space moogle hit it on the nose, and I'm gonna quote for emphasis
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> FORLORN, if you can not find top grade players on a reputible server, then you must expect to see this kind of thing. The average pubber CAN NOT hang, so to preserve the fun for EVERYONE they may have to dump you, to preserve the experience for ALL the other players who are not killing the WHOLE TEAM over and over. I don't think you are a cheater, BUT how can that be fun for the other people? And on your side, what are you to do? turn down your skill so you can play with the other kids? that is not fair to you, so sadly just like sooo many top players, attitude problem or not, you will be burned at the stake, even if its wrong. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Example only serves to prove the need for a dedicated ring of high tier (and if we are to believe that high tier players prefer scripts) bs_0 servers which can be used as an example of how play should work.
That way the poor skilled pubbers can keep themselves happy, the communities are happy, and the top tier players aren't getting kickbanned for silly things.
I like how everyone empathizes with the "poor pubbers". I used to pub on Evil server and routinely got my **** handed to me back in 1.04. Did I **** about it every single chance I got? No, I just kept playing and learning and got better at the game. Why is it such a big deal that someone better then you owns you over and over? Maybe you should just take it as an opportunity to improve.
<!--QuoteBegin-MrGunner+Nov 14 2004, 10:58 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MrGunner @ Nov 14 2004, 10:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I like how everyone empathizes with the "poor pubbers". I used to pub on Evil server and routinely got my **** handed to me back in 1.04. Did I **** about it every single chance I got? No, I just kept playing and learning and got better at the game. Why is it such a big deal that someone better then you owns you over and over? Maybe you should just take it as an opportunity to improve. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Maybe having this sensation also known as "teh fun", does not always mean winning all the games.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Necro, stop pretending that pub admins KNOW what scripts are/do, THEY DONT, AND WE HAVE PROOF. Open your eyes and stop using that argument over and over. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have proof pub admins KNOW what scripts are/do. Durr. The key point here is you have some admins who don't know, and I have some who do. I'm sure you know several admins who do know. So its a bit of a silly debate, because it boils down to fractions. Meh. I'm always going to say more admins know than don't, and you're going to say the opposite. So I left it at that. I didn't know you wanted a personalised reply saying "we have different interpretations of the numbers."
On a related note, if most don't know then it makes it pretty silly if you were the type of person who enters a server, ignores the rule list, tells everyone their rules are silly, and acts like a general tool. If admins need to know these things so badly, then chances are you'd get a better response by asking them for an IM conversation or something. At least then if it devolves to a dumb rant then only one person has to listen to it.
Its all about respect.
Respect the other players level of skill, taking a slack attitude to someone playing their best is a surefire way to annoy people and get banned.
Respect the admin - his rules may be dumb but he pays for the server and needs no reason to ban you. Be polite and maybe he'll listen. Always remember than the bulk of admins will reply with "Its easier to just..." because noone wants to spend their life coping with stupidity.
Respect the fact that sometimes you'll have to spend hard earned cash to play a game the way YOU want. Don't disrespect the other people who had to do the same thing.
Mutual respect, and higher tier servers (with good communities) would go a long way to helping. For a while iirc everyone was saying "go to Hamptons" for higher tier play. Where can you tell people to go now? Sounds like a vacuum to me, a niche which could be filled by the right admin with the right server.
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Nov 14 2004, 11:19 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Nov 14 2004, 11:19 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-[FFT+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([FFT)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->SpaceMoogle5,Nov 14 2004, 05:03 AM] <!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Nov 13 2004, 06:06 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Nov 13 2004, 06:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Also please point to me why a PT on that server (Jojoshua and NSGuide leader) did nothing to educate anyone<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you would have said "Hey can you vouch for me? They think I am cheating!" maybe he would have helped you out. But you did not ask for help, even from an experienced clanner such as Jojoshua, who, <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Jee, something like:
Jojoshua: "Hey guys he really isn't cheating and it would be wrong to ban him."
Even if it did nothing, the thought would have counted... but I guess NSGuides aren't supposed to educate?
plus the admins had no idea of my rep or who I was<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> A couple things here:
Firstly,
NSGuides Mission Statement: NSGuides is a group of dedicated individuals working together to help the community grow through several means. These individuals will be dedicated to helping new players learn how to play by the way of an in-depth manual on their website, teaching them while playing in a public NS server, and also through free lessons, introducing new players to important aspects of the game. By helping players who are new to Natural Selection, we will be able to help them climb the steep learning curve, which will, in turn, keep them interested in the game and in turn help the community grow.
After reading through this several times, please show me where it says, "bail Forlorn out of a ban" Or for that matter ANYTHING about telling pubbers about how good or bad a player is. well you were probably thinking the same thing I was, it's not in there. The reason is because that IS NOT what the NSGuides do. They look out for players who have questions, and help people become better NS players. and again if you read my post, good things come to those who ASK!.
Second,
The NSGuides ARE supposed to educate, but how does Jojoshua know you are not cheating? He can have a good idea, but the only person(s) that know for sure are you, and whoever can see your monitor, I somehow doubt that you were both in the same room. And even at that just because you HATE the PT's and the NSGuides doesn't mean they are as inept as you make them out to be. Just to clairify this is NOT a hackusation, I said before I don't think you cheat at all, BUT I couldn't testify in court that you don't I can trust my better judgement.
Also,
"but I guess NSGuides aren't supposed to educate?" - comments like this are why people get frustrated with you. You know that is not true, its just a little ill will for them, since they soooo deserve it, by dedicating themselves to the advancement of the game.
Lastly on the admins comment...
"plus the admins had no idea of my rep or who I was."
I don't think you put in the effort to interview them, but I noticed that they did call you by your clan tag rather than your name, that is a pretty good sign that they did in fact NOT know who you are. However maybe there was a more than just the one admin. Maybe not, either way I don't think you know that to be true at all, they may in fact have known who you were.
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Nov 14 2004, 02:07 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Nov 14 2004, 02:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-KaMiKaZe!!!+Nov 14 2004, 02:04 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (KaMiKaZe!!! @ Nov 14 2004, 02:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I was a pub admin =[ <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I remember back in the day the FFT clan would debate about whether or not it was legit to use a script like
bind x "impulse 8; say_team I NEED TEH MEDS COMMANDO!" <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Back in the day it was do NOT allow #scr.ipting AT ALL, we were not alone in that by the by, we just happen to be more outspoken. Since then some education has changed the majority of [FFT] members opinion(save charcoal, he still thinks #scr.ipt=hack). I was more about the config tweeks and the expoiting, less about little dumb stuff. Things change, opinions change, and so do sexes of springer guests, all in all I can say this for sure, waffles taste AWESOME!
One last thing, just because someone tells you something is true, does not ALWAYS mean that it is. ESPECIALLY if that person hates the person or group that they are talking about (example: So and such said this in a conversation that I have a log of, what a nub) pretty please with a [explitive] cherry on top take some time to ask the horses mouth if that is what they said, rather than just taking it from a horses ****.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Necro, stop pretending that pub admins KNOW what scripts are/do, THEY DONT, AND WE HAVE PROOF. Open your eyes and stop using that argument over and over. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have proof pub admins KNOW what scripts are/do. Durr. The key point here is you have some admins who don't know, and I have some who do. I'm sure you know several admins who do know. So its a bit of a silly debate, because it boils down to fractions. Meh. I'm always going to say more admins know than don't, and you're going to say the opposite. So I left it at that. I didn't know you wanted a personalised reply saying "we have different interpretations of the numbers."
On a related note, if most don't know then it makes it pretty silly if you were the type of person who enters a server, ignores the rule list, tells everyone their rules are silly, and acts like a general tool. If admins need to know these things so badly, then chances are you'd get a better response by asking them for an IM conversation or something. At least then if it devolves to a dumb rant then only one person has to listen to it.
Its all about respect.
Respect the other players level of skill, taking a slack attitude to someone playing their best is a surefire way to annoy people and get banned.
Respect the admin - his rules may be dumb but he pays for the server and needs no reason to ban you. Be polite and maybe he'll listen. Always remember than the bulk of admins will reply with "Its easier to just..." because noone wants to spend their life coping with stupidity.
Respect the fact that sometimes you'll have to spend hard earned cash to play a game the way YOU want. Don't disrespect the other people who had to do the same thing.
Mutual respect, and higher tier servers (with good communities) would go a long way to helping. For a while iirc everyone was saying "go to Hamptons" for higher tier play. Where can you tell people to go now? Sounds like a vacuum to me, a niche which could be filled by the right admin with the right server. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> So why don't we try taking a "census" to see who is right?
I'll wager alot that I am right. Those fractions do matter and are the whole point to this thread.
<!--QuoteBegin-[FFT]SpaceMoogle5+Nov 15 2004, 03:07 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([FFT]SpaceMoogle5 @ Nov 15 2004, 03:07 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Nov 13 2004, 06:06 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Nov 13 2004, 06:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Also please point to me why a PT on that server (Jojoshua and NSGuide leader) did nothing to educate anyone<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The NSGuides program has really fell down the gutter imo. To see what NSLearn as done and what they are going to do makes NSGuides look really bad. Not to mention NSLearn started after NSGuides and the guides still have no released a thing.
I thought this thread was about enlightening admins on the finer points of scripting rather than showing your own ignorance about something you know nothing about.
Comments
<b>Amplifier</b>, stop pretending that you KNOW you aren't arrogant, YOU ARE, AND YOU ARE PROOF.
Thank you.
<b>Amplifier</b>, stop pretending that you KNOW you aren't arrogant, YOU ARE, AND YOU ARE PROOF.
Thank you. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Amplifier is probably the least arrogant person that I've ever known, stuff it please.
<b>Amplifier</b>, stop pretending that you KNOW you aren't arrogant, YOU ARE, AND YOU ARE PROOF.
Thank you. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How is claiming you have proof of something arrogant?
Darwin: I say species evolve through a process I call natural selection.
Some-other-guy: That's so arrogant.
Darwin: But I have proof, look. It's all written down in my notes here. See, I went to the Galapagos....
Some-other-guy: You can't say you <u>know</u> something to be true. You're in the minority, therefore whenever you say you know more than the majority you're obviously arrogant.
hmm....
Thank you.
Person 1: The earth is a sphere
Person 2: It's flat, your so arrogant
2: generated a lot of heated discussion in the community, also obviously touched upon an issue which has the community split into two or more sides....
Corrected
it is NOT the responsibility of PT's to educate people about how NS is played, in fact they can get in trouble if they say too much about NS. So who cares if he is a PT?
The NSGuide part is what you should have ragged on him about, since they are there to educate and help newer players on how to play the game. However the guides don't go around accosting people and forcing them to listen. If someone has a specific need, or just wants some advise, the guides are there to help.
What was Jojoshua to do?? Maybe the pubbers don't know how you have been playing NS for ever, nor do they know how good of a team Su is, HOWEVER they being general pubbers, should not need to know that. Should he have said "Forlon PWNS J00 NUBS!"? Last time I checked laying out the red carpet for top players is NOT in the guides mission statement. Understanding of NS is one of Jojoshua's many strengths, and he has much wisdom to dole out. In that whole condump, not once did I see "Hey Jojo I need some help on bunnyhopping, can you help me?" or anything to that effect. Simply put the PT/NSG you spoke of, was playing NS, and how is that against any kind of rule? If you would have said "Hey can you vouch for me? They think I am cheating!" maybe he would have helped you out. But you did not ask for help, even from an experienced clanner such as Jojoshua, who, I am sure has suffered many hackusations himself. You knew what was coming(in the form of a ban) and elected to take one for the team to further your argument.
FORLORN, if you can not find top grade players on a reputible server, then you must expect to see this kind of thing. The average pubber CAN NOT hang, so to preserve the fun for EVERYONE they may have to dump you, to preserve the experience for ALL the other players who are not killing the WHOLE TEAM over and over. I don't think you are a cheater, BUT how can that be fun for the other people? And on your side, what are you to do? turn down your skill so you can play with the other kids? that is not fair to you, so sadly just like sooo many top players, attitude problem or not, you will be burned at the stake, even if its wrong.
Ok that is all the thinking my brain will allow for one day.
PS I am NOT flaming I am giving an HONEST analysis, of why this crap happens to you. However, I also know from experience that you have a bit of a rep, and it may not take a ton to set a server op off.
N stuff
<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>
SM5
</span>
it is NOT the responsibility of PT's to educate people about how NS is played, in fact they can get in trouble if they say too much about NS. So who cares if he is a PT?
The NSGuide part is what you should have ragged on him about, since they are there to educate and help newer players on how to play the game. However the guides don't go around accosting people and forcing them to listen. If someone has a specific need, or just wants some advise, the guides are there to help.
What was Jojoshua to do?? Maybe the pubbers don't know how you have been playing NS for ever, nor do they know how good of a team Su is, HOWEVER they being general pubbers, should not need to know that. Should he have said "Forlon PWNS J00 NUBS!"? Last time I checked laying out the red carpet for top players is NOT in the guides mission statement. Understanding of NS is one of Jojoshua's many strengths, and he has much wisdom to dole out. In that whole condump, not once did I see "Hey Jojo I need some help on bunnyhopping, can you help me?" or anything to that effect. Simply put the PT/NSG you spoke of, was playing NS, and how is that against any kind of rule? If you would have said "Hey can you vouch for me? They think I am cheating!" maybe he would have helped you out. But you did not ask for help, even from an experienced clanner such as Jojoshua, who, I am sure has suffered many hackusations himself. You knew what was coming(in the form of a ban) and elected to take one for the team to further your argument.
FORLORN, if you can not find top grade players on a reputible server, then you must expect to see this kind of thing. The average pubber CAN NOT hang, so to preserve the fun for EVERYONE they may have to dump you, to preserve the experience for ALL the other players who are not killing the WHOLE TEAM over and over. I don't think you are a cheater, BUT how can that be fun for the other people? And on your side, what are you to do? turn down your skill so you can play with the other kids? that is not fair to you, so sadly just like sooo many top players, attitude problem or not, you will be burned at the stake, even if its wrong.
Ok that is all the thinking my brain will allow for one day.
PS I am NOT flaming I am giving an HONEST analysis, of why this crap happens to you. However, I also know from experience that you have a bit of a rep, and it may not take a ton to set a server op off.
N stuff
<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>
SM5
</span> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Jee, something like:
Jojoshua: "Hey guys he really isn't cheating and it would be wrong to ban him."
Even if it did nothing, the thought would have counted... but I guess NSGuides aren't supposed to educate?
plus the admins had no idea of my rep or who I was
Too tired to elaborate.
Too tired to elaborate. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Haha apparently there are cheats you can download that control your player and make him leap around the heads of marines and then land three straight bites on him, then leap around and do it again on another guy. Pretty elaborate hacks!
But yeah, in DoD or CoD servers, a player with a recognized clan tag getting a ridiculous k:d doesn't generate the hackcusations that a guy with a vet symbol (the symbol means you should give the benefit of a doubt that the guy is actually good) gets after rocking a server.
That is what I have been saying, along with numerious other people forever. Yes, it is true, we have proof of it. Want more? Pub admins DONT KNOW, they NEED TOO. Sure maybe some know like Forlorn said, but most don't.
I remember back in the day the FFT clan would debate about whether or not it was legit to use a script like
bind x "impulse 8; say_team I NEED TEH MEDS COMMANDO!"
I remember back in the day the FFT clan would debate about whether or not it was legit to use a script like
bind x "impulse 8; say_team I NEED TEH MEDS COMMANDO!" <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
And hud_fastswitch 1
You might have been lucky, that you were not banned long before. I was banned just last week, for dominating a 3vs3 as a skulk. There was no comment, nothing just a plain ban, after i made about 12 kills in a row as cele/focus/regen/cara/leap skulk. After that i have been trying to play on clan severs most of the time.
So it just all depends on the admins, kill him 10 times in a row and you might get a kick, cause he is in a bad mood. There are humans nontheless.
Why would me beating you embarass you? You beating me wouldn't embarass me, so I don't see how it should be reversed. Second, what does it prove about our viewpoints? Ability to push buttons does not equate to an understanding of various problems and how to solve them. So lets set aside the inferiority complex and move into how to attempt to solve the problems at hand, eh?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
If I want to educate a community I don't make 1 server out of 500 that will promote my idea, and that many people will dismiss outright (not play on) or not even care if mp_bs is on or off (many of the pubbers). I do it by making a thread and talking to the people. It's cheaper, faster, and more productive. Saying "go make 1 server out of 500+ to change everyone's mind" is like saying "if you don't like Bush, run for president yourself!" Seriously.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You make one server and you and like-minded people play on it. If there's such a demand as we seem to think there is, then that server will become 2, then 4, and so on and so forth. If the servers are any good then people will want to play on them, and the community can use them as good examples of "higher tier" play.
So yes from the mustard seed grows the largest tree.
Second, on an entirely OT note, yes you should run for president yourself. 3rd party candidates often run with a specific "issue" and that alone will force it into the wider political arena. Consider local senatorial elections where a small local who doesn't want his hospital shut will quickly have all candidates talking about how they'd address the problem. The candidate might not win but the more respected candidate who supported him can hoover up all those votes.
Forlorn -
Arg man I said pm me, haha, no need to post the whole thing.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
-|eXo|-Cephiros |nG|: sci spawn camping
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Mmmmm.
I think the hackusation is laughable, as they always are, and I do feel your pain because its happened to me (not in NS, largely because as a marine I don't get given a GL which is my preferred tool of virtual death), at the same time I think you were cruising for a banning anyway and that was the easiest reason they could give. Banning more likely relating to spawn camping or from the looks of it severe skill stacking. And not a lot of people enjoy being overwhelmingly skill stacked.
Having too many kills.. is a side point. I know when I've went on a lower skill server and got cheap kills I've found it very unsatisfactory, I play MP so that I can face challenging opponents. Otherwise I'd be facing bots. I go elsewhere and get my challenge. Realise that some people don't like being on the receiving end of a skill stack. Yeah its not fair etc etc but thats why people need to create these higher tier servers so that noone is having their game ruined. Consider -
Your game is ruined by continual kick bans for skill
Their game is ruined by someone of blatantly higher skill entering and wiping the floor with the entire enemy team single handed. The enemy team don't like it, and I'm sure SOME members of your team don't enjoy playing second fiddle to the star player.. not when NS is a game of TEAMWORK.
Space moogle hit it on the nose, and I'm gonna quote for emphasis
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
FORLORN, if you can not find top grade players on a reputible server, then you must expect to see this kind of thing. The average pubber CAN NOT hang, so to preserve the fun for EVERYONE they may have to dump you, to preserve the experience for ALL the other players who are not killing the WHOLE TEAM over and over. I don't think you are a cheater, BUT how can that be fun for the other people? And on your side, what are you to do? turn down your skill so you can play with the other kids? that is not fair to you, so sadly just like sooo many top players, attitude problem or not, you will be burned at the stake, even if its wrong.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Example only serves to prove the need for a dedicated ring of high tier (and if we are to believe that high tier players prefer scripts) bs_0 servers which can be used as an example of how play should work.
That way the poor skilled pubbers can keep themselves happy, the communities are happy, and the top tier players aren't getting kickbanned for silly things.
Maybe having this sensation also known as "teh fun", does not always mean winning all the games.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Necro, stop pretending that pub admins KNOW what scripts are/do, THEY DONT, AND WE HAVE PROOF. Open your eyes and stop using that argument over and over.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have proof pub admins KNOW what scripts are/do. Durr. The key point here is you have some admins who don't know, and I have some who do. I'm sure you know several admins who do know. So its a bit of a silly debate, because it boils down to fractions. Meh. I'm always going to say more admins know than don't, and you're going to say the opposite. So I left it at that. I didn't know you wanted a personalised reply saying "we have different interpretations of the numbers."
On a related note, if most don't know then it makes it pretty silly if you were the type of person who enters a server, ignores the rule list, tells everyone their rules are silly, and acts like a general tool. If admins need to know these things so badly, then chances are you'd get a better response by asking them for an IM conversation or something. At least then if it devolves to a dumb rant then only one person has to listen to it.
Its all about respect.
Respect the other players level of skill, taking a slack attitude to someone playing their best is a surefire way to annoy people and get banned.
Respect the admin - his rules may be dumb but he pays for the server and needs no reason to ban you. Be polite and maybe he'll listen. Always remember than the bulk of admins will reply with "Its easier to just..." because noone wants to spend their life coping with stupidity.
Respect the fact that sometimes you'll have to spend hard earned cash to play a game the way YOU want. Don't disrespect the other people who had to do the same thing.
Mutual respect, and higher tier servers (with good communities) would go a long way to helping. For a while iirc everyone was saying "go to Hamptons" for higher tier play. Where can you tell people to go now? Sounds like a vacuum to me, a niche which could be filled by the right admin with the right server.
If you would have said "Hey can you vouch for me? They think I am cheating!" maybe he would have helped you out. But you did not ask for help, even from an experienced clanner such as Jojoshua, who,
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Jee, something like:
Jojoshua: "Hey guys he really isn't cheating and it would be wrong to ban him."
Even if it did nothing, the thought would have counted... but I guess NSGuides aren't supposed to educate?
plus the admins had no idea of my rep or who I was<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A couple things here:
Firstly,
NSGuides Mission Statement:
NSGuides is a group of dedicated individuals working together to help the community grow through several means. These individuals will be dedicated to helping new players learn how to play by the way of an in-depth manual on their website, teaching them while playing in a public NS server, and also through free lessons, introducing new players to important aspects of the game. By helping players who are new to Natural Selection, we will be able to help them climb the steep learning curve, which will, in turn, keep them interested in the game and in turn help the community grow.
After reading through this several times, please show me where it says, "bail Forlorn out of a ban" Or for that matter ANYTHING about telling pubbers about how good or bad a player is. well you were probably thinking the same thing I was, it's not in there. The reason is because that IS NOT what the NSGuides do. They look out for players who have questions, and help people become better NS players. and again if you read my post, good things come to those who ASK!.
Second,
The NSGuides ARE supposed to educate, but how does Jojoshua know you are not cheating? He can have a good idea, but the only person(s) that know for sure are you, and whoever can see your monitor, I somehow doubt that you were both in the same room. And even at that just because you HATE the PT's and the NSGuides doesn't mean they are as inept as you make them out to be. Just to clairify this is NOT a hackusation, I said before I don't think you cheat at all, BUT I couldn't testify in court that you don't I can trust my better judgement.
Also,
"but I guess NSGuides aren't supposed to educate?" - comments like this are why people get frustrated with you. You know that is not true, its just a little ill will for them, since they soooo deserve it, by dedicating themselves to the advancement of the game.
Lastly on the admins comment...
"plus the admins had no idea of my rep or who I was."
I don't think you put in the effort to interview them, but I noticed that they did call you by your clan tag rather than your name, that is a pretty good sign that they did in fact NOT know who you are. However maybe there was a more than just the one admin. Maybe not, either way I don't think you know that to be true at all, they may in fact have known who you were.
I remember back in the day the FFT clan would debate about whether or not it was legit to use a script like
bind x "impulse 8; say_team I NEED TEH MEDS COMMANDO!" <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Back in the day it was do NOT allow #scr.ipting AT ALL, we were not alone in that by the by, we just happen to be more outspoken. Since then some education has changed the majority of [FFT] members opinion(save charcoal, he still thinks #scr.ipt=hack). I was more about the config tweeks and the expoiting, less about little dumb stuff. Things change, opinions change, and so do sexes of springer guests, all in all I can say this for sure, waffles taste AWESOME!
One last thing, just because someone tells you something is true, does not ALWAYS mean that it is. ESPECIALLY if that person hates the person or group that they are talking about (example: So and such said this in a conversation that I have a log of, what a nub) pretty please with a [explitive] cherry on top take some time to ask the horses mouth if that is what they said, rather than just taking it from a horses ****.
okbai
SM5
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Necro, stop pretending that pub admins KNOW what scripts are/do, THEY DONT, AND WE HAVE PROOF. Open your eyes and stop using that argument over and over.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have proof pub admins KNOW what scripts are/do. Durr. The key point here is you have some admins who don't know, and I have some who do. I'm sure you know several admins who do know. So its a bit of a silly debate, because it boils down to fractions. Meh. I'm always going to say more admins know than don't, and you're going to say the opposite. So I left it at that. I didn't know you wanted a personalised reply saying "we have different interpretations of the numbers."
On a related note, if most don't know then it makes it pretty silly if you were the type of person who enters a server, ignores the rule list, tells everyone their rules are silly, and acts like a general tool. If admins need to know these things so badly, then chances are you'd get a better response by asking them for an IM conversation or something. At least then if it devolves to a dumb rant then only one person has to listen to it.
Its all about respect.
Respect the other players level of skill, taking a slack attitude to someone playing their best is a surefire way to annoy people and get banned.
Respect the admin - his rules may be dumb but he pays for the server and needs no reason to ban you. Be polite and maybe he'll listen. Always remember than the bulk of admins will reply with "Its easier to just..." because noone wants to spend their life coping with stupidity.
Respect the fact that sometimes you'll have to spend hard earned cash to play a game the way YOU want. Don't disrespect the other people who had to do the same thing.
Mutual respect, and higher tier servers (with good communities) would go a long way to helping. For a while iirc everyone was saying "go to Hamptons" for higher tier play. Where can you tell people to go now? Sounds like a vacuum to me, a niche which could be filled by the right admin with the right server. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
So why don't we try taking a "census" to see who is right?
I'll wager alot that I am right. Those fractions do matter and are the whole point to this thread.
The NSGuides program has really fell down the gutter imo. To see what NSLearn as done and what they are going to do makes NSGuides look really bad. Not to mention NSLearn started after NSGuides and the guides still have no released a thing.