What Needs To Happen
Nadagast
Join Date: 2002-11-04 Member: 6884Members
Join Date: 2002-11-04 Member: 6884Members
Okay, I'm sure I'm going to come off as arrogant in this post, so be it. Please just ignore that part, and be open minded.
Ignorance in pubbing communities (some of the main ones are, Voogru, G4B2S, lunix (although I haven't played on lunix in a long time), etc) is killing NS's clan scene, and NS on a whole. They reject outsider's viewpoints. Block scripts (unjustifiably, while leaving mp_consistency at 0). They hate clanners for some reason I have yet to find out... and generally I see it as a cesspool of ignorance, unwilling to change or even hear outside views. They consider pubs the top of the ladder, when it just is not true. The pubs promote crappy strategies and even worse teamwork, then pretend like they are great, or amazing. I think it's easy to see why it's so hard to convince them otherwise.
It's like a terrible terrible cult which makes up a huge percentage of pub players, blocking them from getting better or getting into competetive play. The cult rejects ANY outsider's viewpoint, and refuse to budge even when the evidence proves them wrong... It's just killing NS
Example: <a href='http://guns4back2school.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=7043' target='_blank'>http://guns4back2school.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=7043</a>
All I wanted was a reasonable discussion or even a reason why they block scripts. The best they can give me is "we have decided to block scripts". Yet they decided based on what? Urban legends of what scripts can do? I'd bet a thousand dollars that the admins that made this decision were horribly uninformed. Every person who has been educated about scripts has no problem with them. Now, scripts aren't the point of this post, so please don't reply as to whatever your feelings are about them.
The point is that these pub communities (for the most part, NSA and FAT have converted and I commend them) are so intolerant of anything other than their nice pubbing buddies in their community, that it's stifling clan play. Also, these communities are typically ones where terrible strats are used on both teams and it leads to terribly boring gameplay (OC farm vs Turret Farm). They think that a pub is the pinnacle of teamplay, and typically (hypocritically) accuse clanners of being rambos who use no teamwork... when this could not be further from the truth. Clan play is the real top of teamwork, and just because a clanner doesn't feel like running around with marines who both run slower than him (due to gliding/wall strafing/wiggle), and can't aim very well at all, they are suddenly an **** rambo who should be banned. I just don't get it. If you want teamplay where people will listen to you, etc, why not join a clan? We are nice people, and the hate for us is, 99% of the time, unjustified. The reason clanners are hated seems to be a combination of the fact that the majority of clanners are far better than the majority of pubbers (this is a fact, just be honest <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> ), and some mix thinking we are elitest/rambo/****.
Look at this from my perspective... I go onto a pub, and I'm called a hacker/scripterOMG/elitest/rambo. Hell, there is even a server where vets simply cannot connect, you get automatically booted if you have a vet icon. Now, I know that many people agree with me, and I know that if these people would be open-minded and generally reasonable, with no assumptions or jumping to conclusions, they could see the light, if you will. I just don't see it happening in pubs or pub forums.
So that's why I posted here. To attempt to convert some of the most hardcore anti-clan/script/rambo people... I guess all I really want is an open-minded discussion, I'm confident if you see the evidence you'll be swayed =)
(Damnit this is something that forlorn would do <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
Please, no flames or pre-made assumptions. And I'm a crappy writer so if you need a clarification on anything, just ask.
Also, just to make it clear, I have nothing at all against pub communities, unless they are closed-minded fools. I have no problem with communities of friends... but when it starts to approach a level of intolerance, ignorance, and professes to be better than the alternative, I get angry <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Also (damn I have to edit a lot), please don't say that it's their server, they can do as they please. I know they can, but that is no excuse for voluntary ignorance. I respect your right to block scripts or whatever you wish, but basing your decisions out of ignorance is not justified and it does not improve the situation for anyone.
edit #9000000: I think what needs to happen (to fix the rift between some ignorant pub communities and clans) is Flayra or a member of the dev team needs to speak out... They won't listen to us, but hopefully they will listen to Flayra.
OKAY EDIT #9999999999999999999, to sum it all up, the problem is not with the pubbers, the servers, or their choice to block scripts, or their choice to hate vets. It's the ideas they promote, and the total opposition to change or even viewing the evidence. The voluntary ignorance they stand for is BAD. VERY BAD. It's their inability to look at the evidence and change their mind...
Ignorance in pubbing communities (some of the main ones are, Voogru, G4B2S, lunix (although I haven't played on lunix in a long time), etc) is killing NS's clan scene, and NS on a whole. They reject outsider's viewpoints. Block scripts (unjustifiably, while leaving mp_consistency at 0). They hate clanners for some reason I have yet to find out... and generally I see it as a cesspool of ignorance, unwilling to change or even hear outside views. They consider pubs the top of the ladder, when it just is not true. The pubs promote crappy strategies and even worse teamwork, then pretend like they are great, or amazing. I think it's easy to see why it's so hard to convince them otherwise.
It's like a terrible terrible cult which makes up a huge percentage of pub players, blocking them from getting better or getting into competetive play. The cult rejects ANY outsider's viewpoint, and refuse to budge even when the evidence proves them wrong... It's just killing NS
Example: <a href='http://guns4back2school.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=7043' target='_blank'>http://guns4back2school.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=7043</a>
All I wanted was a reasonable discussion or even a reason why they block scripts. The best they can give me is "we have decided to block scripts". Yet they decided based on what? Urban legends of what scripts can do? I'd bet a thousand dollars that the admins that made this decision were horribly uninformed. Every person who has been educated about scripts has no problem with them. Now, scripts aren't the point of this post, so please don't reply as to whatever your feelings are about them.
The point is that these pub communities (for the most part, NSA and FAT have converted and I commend them) are so intolerant of anything other than their nice pubbing buddies in their community, that it's stifling clan play. Also, these communities are typically ones where terrible strats are used on both teams and it leads to terribly boring gameplay (OC farm vs Turret Farm). They think that a pub is the pinnacle of teamplay, and typically (hypocritically) accuse clanners of being rambos who use no teamwork... when this could not be further from the truth. Clan play is the real top of teamwork, and just because a clanner doesn't feel like running around with marines who both run slower than him (due to gliding/wall strafing/wiggle), and can't aim very well at all, they are suddenly an **** rambo who should be banned. I just don't get it. If you want teamplay where people will listen to you, etc, why not join a clan? We are nice people, and the hate for us is, 99% of the time, unjustified. The reason clanners are hated seems to be a combination of the fact that the majority of clanners are far better than the majority of pubbers (this is a fact, just be honest <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> ), and some mix thinking we are elitest/rambo/****.
Look at this from my perspective... I go onto a pub, and I'm called a hacker/scripterOMG/elitest/rambo. Hell, there is even a server where vets simply cannot connect, you get automatically booted if you have a vet icon. Now, I know that many people agree with me, and I know that if these people would be open-minded and generally reasonable, with no assumptions or jumping to conclusions, they could see the light, if you will. I just don't see it happening in pubs or pub forums.
So that's why I posted here. To attempt to convert some of the most hardcore anti-clan/script/rambo people... I guess all I really want is an open-minded discussion, I'm confident if you see the evidence you'll be swayed =)
(Damnit this is something that forlorn would do <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
Please, no flames or pre-made assumptions. And I'm a crappy writer so if you need a clarification on anything, just ask.
Also, just to make it clear, I have nothing at all against pub communities, unless they are closed-minded fools. I have no problem with communities of friends... but when it starts to approach a level of intolerance, ignorance, and professes to be better than the alternative, I get angry <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Also (damn I have to edit a lot), please don't say that it's their server, they can do as they please. I know they can, but that is no excuse for voluntary ignorance. I respect your right to block scripts or whatever you wish, but basing your decisions out of ignorance is not justified and it does not improve the situation for anyone.
edit #9000000: I think what needs to happen (to fix the rift between some ignorant pub communities and clans) is Flayra or a member of the dev team needs to speak out... They won't listen to us, but hopefully they will listen to Flayra.
OKAY EDIT #9999999999999999999, to sum it all up, the problem is not with the pubbers, the servers, or their choice to block scripts, or their choice to hate vets. It's the ideas they promote, and the total opposition to change or even viewing the evidence. The voluntary ignorance they stand for is BAD. VERY BAD. It's their inability to look at the evidence and change their mind...
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
The best we can do is try to teach them. If their community doesn't teach them, then we must!
The best we can do is try to teach them. If their community doesn't teach them, then we must! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
it's impossible... they won't even be openminded to the possibility that they could be wrong. If you disagree with them, you are TEH EVAL HAXOR SCRIPTER.
Occasionally you'll get a convert, someone who will look at the facts, but it isn't often and it isn't working fast <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
and yeah I'm sorry for being so forlorn-like, but something needs to be done or this will continue to get worse.
Whatever, is it really that hard to click the mouse button 10 tens fast?
Whatever, is it really that hard to click the mouse button 10 tens fast? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Read my last edit <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Marine 1 go to the waypoint, stay with M2
Marine 1.. please?
Marine 1.. c'mon, just go to the waypoint
Marine 1, stop asking for meds, you'll get them when you listen
Marine 1: OMG Comm woulndt drop meds!!!!111! admin kick!
Now this isn't a great example.. but there's a difference between being better than the average player and acting like a elitist.
If you shoot better.. great, cover people building RTs, cover people in general.
If you think that just because you're better you're somehow allowed to do whatever you want and that you're above the command chain.. think again.
I agree that a lot of players are very closed-minded.. which is a shame.. but a LOT of vets are ramboers / res ****. And the vet sign is starting to be a: stack this guys team sign, or a res **** sign.. which is a shame.
Marine 1 go to the waypoint, stay with M2
Marine 1.. please?
Marine 1.. c'mon, just go to the waypoint
Marine 1, stop asking for meds, you'll get them when you listen
Marine 1: OMG Comm woulndt drop meds!!!!111! admin kick!
Now this isn't a great example.. but there's a difference between being better than the average player and acting like a elitist.
If you shoot better.. great, cover people building RTs, cover people in general.
If you think that just because you're better you're somehow allowed to do whatever you want and that you're above the command chain.. think again.
I agree that a lot of players are very closed-minded.. which is a shame.. but a LOT of vets are ramboers / res ****. And the vet sign is starting to be a: stack this guys team sign, or a res **** sign.. which is a shame. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First, there's nothing wrong with being a res ****. Aliens need fades/lerks to win the game. This doesn't mean that you should go Fade every single time on a pub, but seriously, if someone saves off the bat for Fade, they are no worse than the guy who dropped an RT, and BETTER than the guy who saved to 30 res, went gorge, and dropped 2 OCs at a random spot on the map.
Second, I think that following a comm's orders is all well and good, but if they tell you to do something dumb, then obviously I won't follow the order. If the game just started and the comm wants me to stay with these 4 terrible, slow moving marines, I'm not gonna do it. I'm gonna go kill a gorge who's dropping a node. Just because you're the commander doesn't mean you are all knowing or that you know what to do best at each moment. Drop your rambos meds/ammo, many times they will be good clanners and more than pay off for themselves in RFK.
Not to mention there are many instances where going alone is beneficial. Early game it is beneficial, because I can kill skulks solo, and I can pressure the gorges much faster. It's beneficial to sneak 1 guy into the hive and spawn camp. It's beneficial to have 1 guy capping nodes on the far side while their team is distracted. It's beneficial to have a guy sneak a phase gate at a hive. Ramboing isn't always bad, and ramboing doesn't mean that the person isn't a teamplayer. Walking around with another marine isn't real teamplay... stuff like baiting, boosting, and welding is.
Last, pubs aren't supposed to be the haven for teamplay that many pubbers like to think of it as... It's a place where I can go and have a fun game (with voice_enable 0) and leave. If you want to get into some great teamplay, JOIN A CLAN. I can't stress this enough. It's like you're sitting there telling me "WTH WHERES TEAMPLAY," then you refuse to do what's necessary (join a clan) to find great teamplay.
probably but it doesn't hurt to try... anyway the point of this isn't to debate scripts, it's more to try to get some communities to open their mind to the possibility that they could be wrong.
besides, I hear you use binds rennex, so I think you're just out to get the biggest advantadge possible! damn bind cheaters....
See, you're stereotyping. Just cuz you see a vet who is a ****, doesn't mean they all are. It's like me hating all pubbers, just cuz a few of them wanted to ban me from a server, or called me mean names once. It just doesn't make sense to hate a vast group of people because one was mean to you once.
Second, I think that following a comm's orders is all well and good, but if they tell you to do something dumb, then obviously I won't follow the order. If the game just started and the comm wants me to stay with these 4 terrible, slow moving marines, I'm not gonna do it. I'm gonna go kill a gorge who's dropping a node. Just because you're the commander doesn't mean you are all knowing or that you know what to do best at each moment. Drop your rambos meds/ammo, many times they will be good clanners and more than pay off for themselves in RFK.
Last, pubs aren't supposed to be the haven for teamplay that many pubbers like to think of it as... It's a place where I can go and have a fun game (with voice_enable 0) and leave. If you want to get into some great teamplay, JOIN A CLAN. I can't stress this enough. It's like you're sitting there telling me "WTH WHERES TEAMPLAY," then you refuse to do what's necessary (join a clan) to find great teamplay. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
My definition of a res ****: A person on the alien team that does not contribute ANYTHING to the alien team in way of teamwork, only in kills.
Person saving for fade: fine by me! of course you need them!
Person going fade every round again and again whilst expecting others to do the dirty work (RTs, DCs, Hive, etc), THAT I frown upon.
If a comm is incompetent.. eject. As for knowing which waypoint is bad and which is good.. you do not see the game the commander does, a commander has (or at least should have) a strategy at the start of the round, and by not following orders you are ruining his strategy to some extent.
If I command and someone blatently refuses to follow orders, then I couldn't care less how much rfk I get off him, he gets nothing until he contributes to the game. Does your K:D ratio mean more to you than having fun on a public server? Go play CS kthnx.
The game isn't meant for those few clan matches.. it's meant for a broad audience, both noobs and vets, so to say that teamwork should only exist in clan play. I don't agree with you there. The problem these days is that we have way too many noobs per veteran / skilled players, and that noobs often are NOT willing to learn, they want to KILL and feel pro..
Also, I said I agree with you, that someone shouldn't save for Fade 5 games in a row (even though he may be the best fade on his team by far). But having a real hostile attitude and yelling at them for res whoring isn't going to fix the problem. Kindly ask him to drop a hive or DCs or something next game. I'm sure he'll oblige... if he can hear you <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Last, you talk about messing up the commander's strategy. Maybe that's because their strategy is terrible... and boring, and leads to awful gameplay (see example of locking down pipe when aliens have sub on veil). I'm not justifying running right past a node the commander just dropped, but I'm saying that MANY times, the players know better than the commander how to play. No Arms Lab 3 minutes in? GG!
Also, I said I agree with you, that someone shouldn't save for Fade 5 games in a row (even though he may be the best fade on his team by far). But having a real hostile attitude and yelling at them for res whoring isn't going to fix the problem. Kindly ask him to drop a hive or DCs or something next game. I'm sure he'll oblige... if he can hear you <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Last, you talk about messing up the commander's strategy. Maybe that's because their strategy is terrible... and boring, and leads to awful gameplay (see example of locking down pipe when aliens have sub on veil). I'm not justifying running right past a node the commander just dropped, but I'm saying that MANY times, the players know better than the commander how to play. No Arms Lab 3 minutes in? GG! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ah... I loved reading that <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Veil: My normal strat on veil.. (works most of the time)
IP, armory, armslab and armor1 or obs and PG
Send half the team to one side of the map, half the team to the other side, make them move for the 2 empty hives whilst capping RTs, lock down the hives , go for double, siege if necessary, tech up and end the game.
Pro: Works most of the time
Con: Like you said, leads to boring turret farms and games being dragged out because marines can't kill the mostly lamed up alien hive.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Kindly ask him to drop a hive or DCs or something next game. I'm sure he'll oblige... if he can hear you <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
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Ah.. if only that worked, if I see someone being a res **** every game in a row and he does have a vet icon, I don't even bother asking him. They know perfectly well what they're doing and won't listen.. if they seem normal pubbers, it might work, but a lot of people just want to play and not think.
Theres too many tools and backhanded ways to promote blatant ignorance right now, the most prominent one being mp_blockscripts - more subtle ones being simple mis- and disinformation. Its fairly shocking when people ask me about 'How to install their script', and look at me like they just had an epiphany when I tell them its just like binding a key in the console - 'bind [key] [alias]', or 'bind space +jump' for example. They were simply unaware that the scripting language was a part of Half-Life since its release waaaaaaaay back.
This in turn radically lessens the pool of potential clanners, because where information is missing, simply the most negative stereotypes are used to fill the blanks. In turn the playernumbers in the clanscene stagnate, and the half-life of the pool of public players turns out to be lower too - as most games end up being very stale and slow-paced because most other tactics are frowned upon.
To make a practical example - the number of NS clans remains roughly the same over time, some sudden jumps excluded. Why? Because theres only a slow trickle of people leaving, and a slow trickle of people joining - the result being that even while clans die and reform, the total number of active clans stays almost exactly the same. So while its silly to say the clanscene is "dying", its correct to say that its hardly growing if at all.
The same goes essentially for pubbing - except the influx and outflux rates are incredibly much higher. Alot of people try and join NS, and alot of people leave. This largely due to public games simply being a very, very frustrating experience after you've played about 3 days and understand whats going on. So in turn, to say that NS is in decline is incorrect - it has the appeal to stay steady, but not the retention yet to grow significantly.
This means in its current form, it can't last very long - theres 2 possible outcomes. One is for the new player retention, community integration and all those things to be improved quickly - the other is forum-doomsayers favorite theme : unstoppable decline. This isn't likely to occur for another 6 months, however - once it begins, theres little hope of stopping it. I've seen it happen to a fairly small MMOG - which had insane long-term player retention, but whose new-player issues were addressed too late. By the time they addressed them (2 years later, basicly) and even improved a set of other things, no new players were interested enough anymore. To see that happen to NS would be pretty sad.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I agree that a lot of players are very closed-minded.. which is a shame.. but a LOT of vets are ramboers / res ****. And the vet sign is starting to be a: stack this guys team sign, or a res **** sign.. which is a shame.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is largely about clanners, not vets. If vets bother you, turn off the symbols and treat people according to their actions. Anyone can be a veteran, provided they were in the right spot a long, long time ago - only people actively playing competitive are likely to be in a competitive clan however.
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Ah.. if only that worked, if I see someone being a res **** every game in a row and he does have a vet icon, I don't even bother asking him. They know perfectly well what they're doing and won't listen.. if they seem normal pubbers, it might work, but a lot of people just want to play and not think. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Eh try using MM2, or something, because many of the clanners I know play with voice_enable 0 on pubs. Many pubbers will just spam the mic... it's real annoying.
Edit: Yeah as SaltzBad said, treat them as people, not as a group 'vets'. Especially when anyone who has 6 people and an email account could get vet way back when.
Edit2: And I would argue that one of the reasons many pubbers leave NS (he mentions a high incoming player rate, and a high leaving rate) is because of the situations where you simply have nothing to do but die over and over again. Let me give some examples:
Turrets Farming
2 Hive lockdowns (often by turret farming)
Fades/Onos in Combat
Xeno/Web in Combat
Once one of these happens, the gameplay is retarded and even the best player cannot stop a bunch of newbies. I think that many people get frustrated because of this... They say "THIS IS LAME, WE HAVE NO CHANCE," the gameplay is *BORRINGGG*. Servers with 'no-recycle' and 'no-F4' policies only make this worse. A team should be allowed to recycle or F4 if the game is over, not only should they be able to do it, they should be encouraged. If the aliens have 3 hives, 5 onos and 5 fades with tons of OCs all over the map, and the marines are holed up in MS, with a turret farm and a few HMGs, the game is over. This is all about the slippery slope... NS really suffers from it IMO
Ladies and Gentlemen, I present to you my "pistol script" that will work on any server - even those with bs_1.
<img src='http://xs2.xs.to/pics/04111/Pistol.PNG' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
This took me about ten seconds to set up, and lets me empty my pistol at the speed a _special script will when at 100 FPS. All I have to do is hit the correct button, and I will fire as fast as possible untill I release that key. I can stop at any point in my clip, or empty the whole thing.
A 'bunnyhop script' effect is also possible, and just as easy to create. All I had to do was change the button it sent and the 'repeat' option to this:
<img src='http://xs2.xs.to/pics/04111/Bhop.PNG' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
and my n52 will send the jump command 100 times a second untill I hit the button again. I could hop from now 'till doomsday without breaking a sweat. It won't actually bunnyhop for me - I am still am learning how to move my mouse & strafe at the right times, but no script could to that for me either.
what... when did I say I could balance the game? I'm not even talking about balance concerns really... And I didnt blame the downfall of the clan scene on pubbers. I blamed it on voluntary ignorance, and refusing to examine the evidence or consider the possibility of being wrong. I said I had no problem with the pubbers or the pubs themselves, it's the ideas they promote which are bad.
Edit: Yeah as SaltzBad said, treat them as people, not as a group 'vets'. Especially when anyone who has 6 people and an email account could get vet way back when.
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Why would you ever use voice_enable 0? I just don't understand, people say important info over the mic and if somoene is spamming, why not just mute him?
As for treating them as people.. how would I go about doing that? I can hardly start calling names now can I? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Dragon_Mech: I would never use a program like that.. it's just not fair (my OPINION, I'm not in ANY way saying that I'm somehow morally better than you), but that's your choice.
As for pistol scripts.. shooting a pistol real fast is easy enough, and bhopping anyone can learn with mwheel.
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because when most pubbers try to say something useful, they're usually either loud or long... and since ingame voice is crappy, you cant hear anything...
You claim that certain servers and generating ignorance, hostilities against vets or scripters, in short, make rash generalisations, and seconds later you "warn" someone else not to stereotype clanners.
As open minded as i am, i find what you have to say entirely ridiculous.
I take it you've never seen things from the other side of the fence (Which also, i must admit, i've not seen things from the clanner's perspective, which is why i won't make any comment about how that does / should work). I've played pubs all my year and a half playing NS. And about a year of that i've played on a single server, near enough every single day. Do you know why i have such dedication to the game? Because it's fun. Believe it or not, it is. It's fun if i win, and it's fun when i lose. I enjoy playing with people who i know or i can have fun playing with. I'm sorry, but if you're after a intense, competetive, strategically flawless game, stick to your clan matches.
In pubs i've seen most tactics, every single different combinations of upgrades and a hell of a lot of different scenarios that can happen in NS. I'm not afraid of trying something new and i know for a fact that the rest of the community which i play with feel the same (One of those whom you deem to be "against" clanners, and also blocks scripts).
Out of all the time playing in the same community there have been two types of people that have caused problems. First off is the general llama, which everyone gets, and is usually promptly banned. The other, generally more abundant, group is clanners. That isn't a generalisation, that's stating a fact. We have more problems with clanners, elitist players and general asshatery from clan players. Clanners have ruined more games for us than any other "group" of players have. Even the people new to NS seem to cause less trouble. And for all this, you're claiming we're the ones with the problem. Maybe it's not you directly, but there's a lot of clanners and a lot of vets out there ruining the reputation of the groups you're trying to defend. Maybe you should find the elitist vets / clanners causing the problems and speak to them about their ignorance and bad conduct.
From your posts, however, you seem to willfully disobey most courtesy rules on most pub servers. You say you don't follow orders, spawncamp, frag whoring, etc. Have you ever considered that other players frown on this kind of behavior? Did you stop to think that what you're doing might be ruining the game for others? Sure, you could run around the map and win the game virtually single handedly (Yes i've seen it done), but have you ever thought about how that effects the other players? Take one strategy that, as marines, you have your best player sat outside the enemy hive or nearby chokepoint, endlessly killing skulks. Sure, you get a lot of kills, your k:d ratio might look good and the commander will probably get a bunch of res, but have you ever thought that it's about as fun as genital torture for the other team?
And as for scripting. When mp_blockscripts was finally fixed, i too was outraged and generally **** off about having to part with my scripts, but face it, you can play without them. You don't *need* your scripts, they're for convenience, you shouldn't rely on them too much.
And last of all, you mention having issues with 3 servers. According to Steam's stats page there are 544 servers right now. Why not try playing on one of the other 541 servers. Or maybe, y'know, find a community that's more accepting to your style of play and get to know some people. Pubbing isn't just about hitting up some random server and getting a high k:d ratio, it's also about playing and interacting with a whole wealth of people, learning new strategies, tactics and methods of play. You claim we are the ones who are closed minded, but from what you've shown, it appears that you aren't entirely blameless.
Cuz it's just a hassle... Clanners actually use sound and 90% of the time the pubbers are annoying or say things that you already know, or don't need to hear.
Have you read a single word people here have been saying?
In a nutshell, for Redfords with ADD :
<b>Balance is comparitively irrelevant to tiny, tiny factors like ACCESSIBILITY, NEW PLAYER RETENTION and COMMUNITY INTEGRATION</b>. This isn't gamebalance - these are things like 3jumps, doubleclicks, mouse acceleration fixes, tutorials, guides and most controversially <i>encouragement of a unified style of play</i>, instead of endless segregation.
You claim that certain servers and generating ignorance, hostilities against vets or scripters, in short, make rash generalisations, and seconds later you "warn" someone else not to stereotype clanners. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Uhm I don't see the contradiction. I used several servers as examples, because I've played there and posted on their forums. I never said all pubs are like this. I know of several pubs which are great, NSA being one of them (mentioned in the first post).
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I take it you've never seen things from the other side of the fence (Which also, i must admit, i've not seen things from the clanner's perspective, which is why i won't make any comment about how that does / should work). I've played pubs all my year and a half playing NS. And about a year of that i've played on a single server, near enough every single day. Do you know why i have such dedication to the game? Because it's fun. Believe it or not, it is. It's fun if i win, and it's fun when i lose. I enjoy playing with people who i know or i can have fun playing with. I'm sorry, but if you're after a intense, competetive, strategically flawless game, stick to your clan matches.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I played as a pubber for awhile from 1.0 to 1.04. I have seen the other side...
Why do you think clanners (or I) play NS? Because it isn't fun? No, we play for the same reason as you do, for fun. Note that I am not knocking the playstyle in pubs... I didn't say you need to have flawless strats, I said I didn't have a problem with the players/pubs themselves, but the ideas they promote; I really cannot make that any more clear. You're talking about something that's besides the point. I pub for the same reason you do: fun. I play competetively, also for the same reason, fun.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In pubs i've seen most tactics, every single different combinations of upgrades and a hell of a lot of different scenarios that can happen in NS. I'm not afraid of trying something new and i know for a fact that the rest of the community which i play with feel the same (One of those whom you deem to be "against" clanners, and also blocks scripts).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nobody is afraid of trying something new, but again, you're arguing against something that is irrelavent <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> I don't think this relates at all to my original point...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Out of all the time playing in the same community there have been two types of people that have caused problems. First off is the general llama, which everyone gets, and is usually promptly banned. The other, generally more abundant, group is clanners. That isn't a generalisation, that's stating a fact. We have more problems with clanners, elitist players and general asshatery from clan players. Clanners have ruined more games for us than any other "group" of players have. Even the people new to NS seem to cause less trouble. And for all this, you're claiming we're the ones with the problem. Maybe it's not you directly, but there's a lot of clanners and a lot of vets out there ruining the reputation of the groups you're trying to defend. Maybe you should find the elitist vets / clanners causing the problems and speak to them about their ignorance and bad conduct.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What do they do? Seriously, most of the time it's a misunderstanding or a lack of knowledge by the pubber which makes them angry at a clanner. Also, if many pubbers want to ban me from their pub, should I generalize them (or 'state a fact') that they are all newbies? Nope, I shouldn't. Judge people as individuals, not as a group. If clanner X goes to your server and does something bad (? what do they do bad? crash the server? res****? (which isn't bad) or what?), don't say "Oh, all clanners are lame tards," say "clanner X is a tard."
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->From your posts, however, you seem to willfully disobey most courtesy rules on most pub servers. You say you don't follow orders, spawncamp, frag whoring, etc. Have you ever considered that other players frown on this kind of behavior? Did you stop to think that what you're doing might be ruining the game for others? Sure, you could run around the map and win the game virtually single handedly (Yes i've seen it done), but have you ever thought about how that effects the other players? Take one strategy that, as marines, you have your best player sat outside the enemy hive or nearby chokepoint, endlessly killing skulks. Sure, you get a lot of kills, your k:d ratio might look good and the commander will probably get a bunch of res, but have you ever thought that it's about as fun as genital torture for the other team?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I say I don't follow orders which I know to be retarded. There's nothing wrong with that. Spawn camp? It's a part of the game. It's the alien's duty to protect their hive. If they let someone in their hive, be prepared to feel the consequences. Frag whoring... uhm where did I say anything about that? That's what I'm talking about, you're generalizing, if I don't follow orders from the commander I'm automatically a frag ****? Last, you talk about a good marine camping a corridor or something. How do you expect to improve if you can run at marines in a straight line and kill them? Seriously. It isn't that hard to kill a good clanning marine on a pub, most of the time they won't check ambush spots and generally will have their guard set lower than in a competetive game. You need to get owned to learn. Go behind him? Use real teamwork and attack with 2+ skulks at once? Ambush him? Walk up to him from another entrance? Bhop at him from the back? Or learn how to bhop? There are plenty of ways to kill a good marine. If you don't know how to then you should learn <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> (you being a random pubber, not you, esuna) Just because the players are bad doesn't mean they should be pampered, or we'd all still be real bad at NS.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And as for scripting. When mp_blockscripts was finally fixed, i too was outraged and generally **** off about having to part with my scripts, but face it, you can play without them. You don't *need* your scripts, they're for convenience, you shouldn't rely on them too much.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yep I can play without them. But again, you're missing the point of the post. It's not a post about pro or anti-blockscripts... it's about the attitude of ignorance and the unwillingness to learn that some of these pub communities promote.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And last of all, you mention having issues with 3 servers. According to Steam's stats page there are 544 servers right now. Why not try playing on one of the other 541 servers. Or maybe, y'know, find a community that's more accepting to your style of play and get to know some people. Pubbing isn't just about hitting up some random server and getting a high k:d ratio, it's also about playing and interacting with a whole wealth of people, learning new strategies, tactics and methods of play. You claim we are the ones who are closed minded, but from what you've shown, it appears that you aren't entirely blameless.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is dodging the problem instead of fixing it... Besides of all the NS servers, if I use the 3 filters (not PW'd, not full, not empty) and with a ping restriction of under 100, I usually get less than 50 servers. If I want to play ns_ or co_ specifically, it typically goes down to less than 20-25 servers. If it's late at night, it's usually 10-15 servers, many of which have 3 or 4 people in them.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is different from static defense how? If anything, theres 3 dozen ways to counter a lone Marine or any group outside your Hive - theres ZERO (well 1 if you count redemption Onos) to counter a turret Farm vs 1 Hive. Aside from having 75 res, theres no reason to keep playing in that case, unless the commander forgot to turret farm one particular spot.
That is outrageously stupid and no fun - but if our team simply sucks and is overwhelmed by a few marines that can shoot, who cares? It'll be over in another 3 minutes. Its certainly no reason to revoke their rights to shoot at aliens.
This happens in a lot of games (though they do not have vet icons). They are called "noob only servers". The only difference being is that in Natural Selection you are considered good if you have a vet icon (well, those who are not educated on the competitive side).
and why do you blame downfall of the competitive community on blockscripts? That, it pretty darn foolish. Anyone who actually is in the competitive community notices that it has been on a downfall all of 3.0 betas with its strong hold being about 1.04/ early 2.0.
See, you're stereotyping. Just cuz you see a vet who is a ****, doesn't mean they all are. It's like me hating all pubbers, just cuz a few of them wanted to ban me from a server, or called me mean names once. It just doesn't make sense to hate a vast group of people because one was mean to you once. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
i wasnt stereotyping, im saying that there are people who have based on the actions of a few vets.
read more carefully
See, you're stereotyping. Just cuz you see a vet who is a ****, doesn't mean they all are. It's like me hating all pubbers, just cuz a few of them wanted to ban me from a server, or called me mean names once. It just doesn't make sense to hate a vast group of people because one was mean to you once. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i wasnt stereotyping, im saying that there are people who have based on the actions of a few vets.
read more carefully <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
no you're stereotyping when you go from
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->part of the problem is that there ARE clanners that are elitest/rambo/****<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
to
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->and these clanners have given a bad image to people about ALL clanners<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They SHOULDN'T give a bad image to people about all clanners. That's stereotyping... I don't hate all pubbers in NS because a few of them were mean to me.