yeah alien hive2 was harsh as hell in 3.1 <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> to be perfectly honest I havent noticed any difference with hmg (its a 4 bullet difference with lv0 weapons and hive 2 armour ffs? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />)
Well, in 3.1, the aliens got a huge power boost the moment Hive2 went up. If an alien team that was being steadily pushed back could simply hold on to the 2nd Hive long enough for it to go active, that boost was often enough for them to turn the game around and recapture the map. I'll even go so far as to say it was probably TOO easy for the aliens after Hive2 went up. So I'm not totally opposed to the changes.
Now in 3.2, the smaller 2-Hive boost feels like its really just a stepping stone to the 3-Hive boost. So now, you get good fights over the 2nd Hive, and then good fights over the 3rd Hive as well. Which is good.
The problem is, while locking down 2 Hives is a difficult task for the Marines, locking down just a single hive is pretty easy. The aliens really need to get into that 3rd Hive to get the power to fight Marine's top tech now, but Marine top tech often comes online during the 2-Hive level and prevents the 3rd Hive from ever showing up.
Then we come to another good point: If the aliens get the 3rd Hive, now they can match Marine Top Tech pretty evenly.
For the first time in awhile, both sides can acheive top tech at the same time, and actually continue an even battle, assuming approximately equal resflow. There is nothing wrong with this--its probably a good thing. The problem comes when aliens win that battle, and gain the upper hand in res flow, they are STILL fighting an even battle to finish the marines off. If anything, the marines become MORE powerful as they retreat, since they are concentrating more guns in a smaller area. And I have no idea how to solve this problem.
You might start by buffing Charge, since it requires both 3 Hives (top tech) and an Onos (good res flow). It is the hardest ability to get in the entire game, so it ought to be pretty devastating. You might also adjust 3-Hive armor to be equivalent to the old 2-Hive armor or something, to give top level aliens a little buff.
That would only leave one major problem: Relocating to a Hive is just about "good game". But I'll leave that one for another rant.
Some players improve, some don't. Probably the point is whether players that want to improve can improve. If you're playing an hour a week, don't expect to be able to beat the pros. Some people are fine with gorging and low marine fragging capabilities and there is no problem with that as long as they don't start demanding the game balanced for them.
And anyway, its better to balance the game at least for higher skill levels. It really doesn't encourage to play the game if it gets less fun and balanced when you get better at it.
No I'd say acid rockets, charge, xenocide and webs as well as three chambers makes aliens pretty much unbeatable. Hive armor was never the reason hive 3 was considered so rediculously overpowered no one even bothered to get it before winning.
Yes, Charge was pretty unbeatable when Onos had 3,550 HP. Now they have 1900. Approximately HALF as much.
Fades have 600 instead of 1,050, and don't move as fast. Acid Rocket is as much of a necessity as a game breaker.
Web no longer works in combat, since webs dont go active for 2 seconds after placement. Still useful defensively, but you cant effectively use it offensively anymore.
Scream and Xeno are still good. But its gonna take a lot more teamwork than before for 3-Hive aliens to stop a top-tech Marine push.
cxwf your numbers are wrong, youre comparing a carapace hive3 arm unit to a vanilla unit as opposed to a cara vanilla unit <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
and no aliens still dominate with 3 hives, its not as obvious but they still do, but a tier3 marine vs tier2 alien really starts to hurt after a while, which im not opposed to in anyway really seeing as it becomes more of a res war than anything else compared to 2.0 or 3.0s hivewar
<!--quoteo(post=1581339:date=Nov 27 2006, 12:39 PM:name=ZiGGY)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ZiGGY @ Nov 27 2006, 12:39 PM) [snapback]1581339[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> cxwf your numbers are wrong, youre comparing a carapace hive3 arm unit to a vanilla unit as opposed to a cara vanilla unit <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, I did that intentionally. Why? Because Carapace was a very valuable upgrade with 3-Hive Armor Bonuses, and a pretty terrible upgrade with 1-Hive armor. So you are much more likely to pick a different upgrade now.
Onos, for example, can't even USE all of their Carapace bonus anymore--they die with more than 100 armor left! At Hive 3!!!
I know I'm not very good player, but I've been playing a lot of beta 3.2 recently, and I have to agree with some of the above statements.
Personally, I like the nerfed fade (with regards to speed). Some people are just so good that the marines (talking about public play) stand no chance and, well, IMO it's not a fun game. The reduced blinking makes it a little harder for the fades, and I like this.
But one thing I don't like is the nerfed armor. I was playing a game the other day on ns_caged. Aliens slowly overpowere the marines, and basically rines are trapped in their base by mountains of structures and aliens have all RTs, all hives, all everything. Since the game had been going on for a while, rines had HA/dmg 3/lots of heavy weapons. Long story short, the aliens couldn't finish the marines off. Personally I was a fade and I had regeneration because I'm a nub like that and literally speaking, one grenade from a GL would land near me and I'd have to pay attention to my health; if another landed near me I had to run for cover. Many aliens were dying, but the marines couldn't do anything to leave base. We did end up winning though with an 8 onos + 1 lerk rush, but what do you expect when that happens?
IMO hive armor is a good thing and should be brought back.
I agree that balancing things for competitive (read: most demanding, most exploited) play is the best way to go about it, at the same time I gotta say that assuming ns will always have 6 people on each team and ignoring games of 3v3 is naiive and idealistic.
Besides that, for anyone arguing that "you just need to get used to the new blink" - I'm not saying here that "blink is bad" but you have to understand the mathematical fact that nerfing blink's acceleration makes A) fades significantly easier to block, B) dodging behind walls and evasive maneuvers more time consuming for the same directional changes, and therefore less effective, and C) hit and run fading more difficult by preventing instant 180's thus requiring either more time spent in the heat of the firefight or an alternate (unexplored, highly block-ready) exit being utilized.
Well, my question was I wanted to know what were the skill levels of the players that the OP was playing with. I was wondering if he might have had an error in that it was the player skill, not the game, that was unbalancing.
If you wanted a pure reflex game, then I would agree that if you played longer and harder, then perhaps you deserve better results. But I assumed there was strategy into this game. And strategy is not about racing against time; it's about making better decisions.
Take the best-known strategy game out there: chess (not speedchess). A player is good because of his choices, not how well or fast he executes them.
What I'm going with this is that I enjoy the teamwork aspects of NS such as umbra, parasite or heal that don't require laser-fast reflexes aiming or fading, which the game currently hinges on. But on the other hand, perhaps a whole team going fade would do the job even better.
Balancing this game is insane. You have to factor in different abilities, skills and such. But before we throw out conclusions, I hope we have accurate evidence, instead of playing just one game. Clan games are a start to balance, but you have to look at the larger picture and see how it does in average versus average and noob versus noob scenarios. Balancing the game for only a select group of players does not always work. Nerfing a fade right now might balance it for a clan game, but for the players that could never fade well even in 3.1, it's just going to be harder.
Anyway, I'm still waiting to hear if the MDS chain is now going to be broken or not. It seems that the game is balanced on celerity, which limits options.
<!--quoteo(post=1581387:date=Nov 27 2006, 04:09 PM:name=Harrower)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Harrower @ Nov 27 2006, 04:09 PM) [snapback]1581387[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I agree that balancing things for competitive (read: most demanding, most exploited) play is the best way to go about it, at the same time I gotta say that assuming ns will always have 6 people on each team and ignoring games of 3v3 is naiive and idealistic.
Besides that, for anyone arguing that "you just need to get used to the new blink" - I'm not saying here that "blink is bad" but you have to understand the mathematical fact that nerfing blink's acceleration makes A) fades significantly easier to block, B) dodging behind walls and evasive maneuvers more time consuming for the same directional changes, and therefore less effective, and C) hit and run fading more difficult by preventing instant 180's thus requiring either more time spent in the heat of the firefight or an alternate (unexplored, highly block-ready) exit being utilized. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Acceleration isn't slower the rate of fire is, which means you must simply push the button differently. I honestly am not seeing a difference in speed since I got use to it.
AND YOU CANT BALANCE A PUB, CHRIST. Go to one pub, everyone will tell you marines are overpowered, go to another and aliens are overpowered, and another thinks its perfect. Balancing it for more or less than 6v6 would require them to completely chagne the res system(NOT A BAD IDEA AT ALL), which they wont be doing.
<!--quoteo(post=1581342:date=Nov 27 2006, 06:56 PM:name=Cxwf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Cxwf @ Nov 27 2006, 06:56 PM) [snapback]1581342[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Yes, I did that intentionally. Why? Because Carapace ... a pretty terrible upgrade with 1-Hive armor. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> ahahahahahahahaha *rolls on floor crying*
<!--quoteo(post=1581414:date=Nov 27 2006, 05:55 PM:name=Grahf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Grahf @ Nov 27 2006, 05:55 PM) [snapback]1581414[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Acceleration isn't slower the rate of fire is, which means you must simply push the button differently. I honestly am not seeing a difference in speed since I got use to it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If rate of fire is slower, it means the ability triggers less times in a given second. If the ability triggers less times in a given second, that means it takes more time to get as many fires out of it, and therefore, since A) one fire does not send you to max speed, and B) you cannot fire multiple times at once, it takes more time to get it up to max speed. If it takes more time to get it up to max speed, then its acceleration is decreased.
<!--quoteo(post=1581420:date=Nov 27 2006, 05:17 PM:name=ZiGGY)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ZiGGY @ Nov 27 2006, 05:17 PM) [snapback]1581420[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> <!--QuoteBegin-Cxwf+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Cxwf)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes, I did that intentionally. Why? Because Carapace is ... a pretty terrible upgrade with 1-Hive armor.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->ahahahahahahahaha *rolls on floor crying* <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Carapace Increase in Onos life-expectancy (1-Hive): 22.8% Carapace Increase in Onos life-expectancy (3-Hive): 42.0%
1-Hive Carapace on an Onos is a joke. Obviously I'm not dissing Carapace on skulks, but just for the sake of comparison:
Carapace Increase in Skulk life-expectancy (1-Hive): 44.4% Carapace Increase in Skulk life-expectancy (3-Hive): 60.0%
Now remind me why you get Carapace as a 1-Hive Onos again? For <i>twenty two percent</i> more life?
<!--quoteo(post=1581440:date=Nov 28 2006, 01:15 AM:name=Cxwf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Cxwf @ Nov 28 2006, 01:15 AM) [snapback]1581440[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> ahahahahahahahaha *rolls on floor crying* Carapace Increase in Onos life-expectancy (1-Hive): 22.8% Carapace Increase in Onos life-expectancy (3-Hive): 42.0%
1-Hive Carapace on an Onos is a joke. Obviously I'm not dissing Carapace on skulks, but just for the sake of comparison:
Carapace Increase in Skulk life-expectancy (1-Hive): 44.4% Carapace Increase in Skulk life-expectancy (3-Hive): 60.0%
Now remind me why you get Carapace as a 1-Hive Onos again? For <i>twenty two percent</i> more life? <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You won't be able to spend all your extra carapace armour with one hive, anyway. You'll die before that. (if you haven't taken that into consideration already).
<!--quoteo(post=1581472:date=Nov 27 2006, 08:45 PM:name=ZiGGY)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ZiGGY @ Nov 27 2006, 08:45 PM) [snapback]1581472[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> cxwf changes his argument every time he loses, aww bless ;p <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You <i>could</i> say that, but that would require making up facts out of thin air.
It would be more accurate to say that when people intentionally distort my words, or completely miss the meaning of what I said, then I make an attempt to explain myself more clearly.
On the other hand, you seem to be reveling in getting me to "concede" that skulks still like Carapace, as if a lifeform with 10 armor would care about Hive armor, or be useful in a late-game base-breaking, while completely ignoring the actual questions I raised about Fades and Onos. Does that qualify as changing your argument when you lose?
i like how youre making less and less sense with every post, like you dont even remember what youre talking about anymore, do you know what youre talking about? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
Kero is making perfect sense. If you'd put some thought into your and his arguments before shooting your mouth off you might have realized that instead of getting backed into a corner by his clearly superior intellect and then being forced to resort to ad hominem and reverse projection to cover your mindless trolling. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/siege.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::siege::" border="0" alt="siege.gif" /> <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/siege.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::siege::" border="0" alt="siege.gif" /> <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/siege.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::siege::" border="0" alt="siege.gif" />
What I was saying is that Hive 3 aliens lack the tools to properly finish off a marine team that they have beaten in the field. Marines can lose all of their res nodes, be pushed back into marine spawn, and then hold out another thirty minutes before the aliens can finish the game. That <i>shouldn't happen</i>. Not only is it bad balance, but its no fun for anyone involved. And heaven help you if the Marines re-located into a hive site. Two hive aliens will <i>never</i> get the job done.
Cxwf, part of your point about hive3 aliens being too weak was a health comparison. You decided to compare a non-carapace fade to a carpace fade. Does that mean that regen or redemption would be better than carapace on a hive3 fade? I doubt it, since carapace will typically give you a greater margin of error to work with, and you can afford the 50 res to fade if you do happen to die. On an onos, it might be better to get redemption, but I doubt many people will switch from carapace to redemption because of the change. Therefore, comparing health levels should be done with carapace in both situations.
The onos isn't and hasn't since 2.01 been a unit you just charge in to break a position defended by several marines with weapons. It's a unit you use to temporarily soak damage to let other life forms get in and a unit you use to quickly take down buildings.
Carapace still works. Why? Because when you use an onos you will 1) use devour which will help regenerate health before armor, and 2) will take damage on and off before going in letting innate regeneration come into effect and regenerate health before armor.
So the life expectancy of the onos has drastically decreased when charging HMG marines head on in a do-or-die scenario at two hives or later. That's undisputable. It might even be a balance problem in some situations, but is it a game play problem? I honestly do not think it is.
Note the distinction between game play and and balance.
pSyk0mAnNerdish by NatureGermanyJoin Date: 2003-08-07Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
edited November 2006
<!--quoteo(post=1581520:date=Nov 28 2006, 01:44 AM:name=Cxwf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Cxwf @ Nov 28 2006, 01:44 AM) [snapback]1581520[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> What I was saying is that Hive 3 aliens lack the tools to properly finish off a marine team that they have beaten in the field. Marines can lose all of their res nodes, be pushed back into marine spawn, and then hold out another thirty minutes before the aliens can finish the game. That <i>shouldn't happen</i>. Not only is it bad balance, but its no fun for anyone involved. And heaven help you if the Marines re-located into a hive site. Two hive aliens will <i>never</i> get the job done. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I would rather say that marines are too strong without decent res income after each upgrade is researched than aliens lack the tools to finish them off. Marines spawn with lvl3 WU/AU and don't loose weapons that are dropped by dead marines. They stay in ms and don't have to invest much res to stay powerful unlike aliens at 1 hive and 1 rt. I'd love to see spawning rines cost ressources depending on their armor- and maybe even weapon-lvl (e.g.: vanilla=0 res .. lvl3 (WU/)AU=3 res). The commander could change the quality of spawning marines at the infantry portal. This would also add some scalable balance regarding the arms lab. But i'm pretty sure this change would be too huge to the res system concerning balance and testing.
if you cant finish off a marine team with acid rocket, xeonide, charge and web then quite frankly youre never going to win (and also suck) even if its a drawn out last stand theres no reason why you shouldnt get more than the best part of a deal with that.
A much more interesting argument is 2hive alien v fully teched tier3 marines, which is a damn hard fight for aliens but res is the determining factor in this outcome so it totally depends how youre playing the field. And quite frankly in these fights aliens have to use every trick at their disposal and there is no time to mess about, this isnt focus fade gg land you actually have to think about your map control <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
a 3 hive bunker is EASILY defeated by umbraed acid rocketing fades, notice how i dont even bother mentioning things like primal scream <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> and a strong mix of units will walk over them asif they were nothing <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> BECAUSE were assuming that theyre already economically devastated :/
<!--quoteo(post=1581472:date=Nov 27 2006, 09:45 PM:name=ZiGGY)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ZiGGY @ Nov 27 2006, 09:45 PM) [snapback]1581472[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> cxwf <b>changes his argument every time he loses</b>, aww bless ;p<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
*cough*
Anyway, you're missing the point again. iff the aliens get the hive up, they have a shot at demolishing the marine base. Locking down one hive is cake, and fighting for that hive concentrates fire. Hive 2 aliens can't break that, that's all (I think) the problem is.
EDIT: I noticed what the reason is that I don't "enjoy" blink as much anymore, it's Z-axis predictability. With the old blink you could "fly" as I said before, with this one you basically hop fast (or burn out all your adren staying aloft). So damage is increased probably for that reason more than any other.
no harrower that isnt what cxwf was saying, and yes a 1hive hold is breakable, but its not MEANT to be easy because its still a balanced position up to the point of marines getting higher tech, which will NOT happen in the blink of an eye. it is more than doable even if they have tier2 tech but its far from a simple hit and run affair
Comments
Now in 3.2, the smaller 2-Hive boost feels like its really just a stepping stone to the 3-Hive boost. So now, you get good fights over the 2nd Hive, and then good fights over the 3rd Hive as well. Which is good.
The problem is, while locking down 2 Hives is a difficult task for the Marines, locking down just a single hive is pretty easy. The aliens really need to get into that 3rd Hive to get the power to fight Marine's top tech now, but Marine top tech often comes online during the 2-Hive level and prevents the 3rd Hive from ever showing up.
Then we come to another good point: If the aliens get the 3rd Hive, now they can match Marine Top Tech pretty evenly.
For the first time in awhile, both sides can acheive top tech at the same time, and actually continue an even battle, assuming approximately equal resflow. There is nothing wrong with this--its probably a good thing. The problem comes when aliens win that battle, and gain the upper hand in res flow, they are STILL fighting an even battle to finish the marines off. If anything, the marines become MORE powerful as they retreat, since they are concentrating more guns in a smaller area. And I have no idea how to solve this problem.
You might start by buffing Charge, since it requires both 3 Hives (top tech) and an Onos (good res flow). It is the hardest ability to get in the entire game, so it ought to be pretty devastating. You might also adjust 3-Hive armor to be equivalent to the old 2-Hive armor or something, to give top level aliens a little buff.
That would only leave one major problem: Relocating to a Hive is just about "good game". But I'll leave that one for another rant.
Some players improve, some don't. Probably the point is whether players that want to improve can improve. If you're playing an hour a week, don't expect to be able to beat the pros. Some people are fine with gorging and low marine fragging capabilities and there is no problem with that as long as they don't start demanding the game balanced for them.
And anyway, its better to balance the game at least for higher skill levels. It really doesn't encourage to play the game if it gets less fun and balanced when you get better at it.
Fades have 600 instead of 1,050, and don't move as fast. Acid Rocket is as much of a necessity as a game breaker.
Web no longer works in combat, since webs dont go active for 2 seconds after placement. Still useful defensively, but you cant effectively use it offensively anymore.
Scream and Xeno are still good. But its gonna take a lot more teamwork than before for 3-Hive aliens to stop a top-tech Marine push.
and no aliens still dominate with 3 hives, its not as obvious but they still do, but a tier3 marine vs tier2 alien really starts to hurt after a while, which im not opposed to in anyway really seeing as it becomes more of a res war than anything else compared to 2.0 or 3.0s hivewar
cxwf your numbers are wrong, youre comparing a carapace hive3 arm unit to a vanilla unit as opposed to a cara vanilla unit <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
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Yes, I did that intentionally. Why? Because Carapace was a very valuable upgrade with 3-Hive Armor Bonuses, and a pretty terrible upgrade with 1-Hive armor. So you are much more likely to pick a different upgrade now.
Onos, for example, can't even USE all of their Carapace bonus anymore--they die with more than 100 armor left! At Hive 3!!!
Personally, I like the nerfed fade (with regards to speed). Some people are just so good that the marines (talking about public play) stand no chance and, well, IMO it's not a fun game. The reduced blinking makes it a little harder for the fades, and I like this.
But one thing I don't like is the nerfed armor. I was playing a game the other day on ns_caged. Aliens slowly overpowere the marines, and basically rines are trapped in their base by mountains of structures and aliens have all RTs, all hives, all everything. Since the game had been going on for a while, rines had HA/dmg 3/lots of heavy weapons. Long story short, the aliens couldn't finish the marines off. Personally I was a fade and I had regeneration because I'm a nub like that and literally speaking, one grenade from a GL would land near me and I'd have to pay attention to my health; if another landed near me I had to run for cover. Many aliens were dying, but the marines couldn't do anything to leave base. We did end up winning though with an 8 onos + 1 lerk rush, but what do you expect when that happens?
IMO hive armor is a good thing and should be brought back.
MrBen's post should just become a template to be pasted at the beginning of every thread concerning balance.
Whoa, 600 posts.
Besides that, for anyone arguing that "you just need to get used to the new blink" - I'm not saying here that "blink is bad" but you have to understand the mathematical fact that nerfing blink's acceleration makes A) fades significantly easier to block, B) dodging behind walls and evasive maneuvers more time consuming for the same directional changes, and therefore less effective, and C) hit and run fading more difficult by preventing instant 180's thus requiring either more time spent in the heat of the firefight or an alternate (unexplored, highly block-ready) exit being utilized.
If you wanted a pure reflex game, then I would agree that if you played longer and harder, then perhaps you deserve better results. But I assumed there was strategy into this game. And strategy is not about racing against time; it's about making better decisions.
Take the best-known strategy game out there: chess (not speedchess). A player is good because of his choices, not how well or fast he executes them.
What I'm going with this is that I enjoy the teamwork aspects of NS such as umbra, parasite or heal that don't require laser-fast reflexes aiming or fading, which the game currently hinges on. But on the other hand, perhaps a whole team going fade would do the job even better.
Balancing this game is insane. You have to factor in different abilities, skills and such. But before we throw out conclusions, I hope we have accurate evidence, instead of playing just one game. Clan games are a start to balance, but you have to look at the larger picture and see how it does in average versus average and noob versus noob scenarios. Balancing the game for only a select group of players does not always work. Nerfing a fade right now might balance it for a clan game, but for the players that could never fade well even in 3.1, it's just going to be harder.
Anyway, I'm still waiting to hear if the MDS chain is now going to be broken or not. It seems that the game is balanced on celerity, which limits options.
I agree that balancing things for competitive (read: most demanding, most exploited) play is the best way to go about it, at the same time I gotta say that assuming ns will always have 6 people on each team and ignoring games of 3v3 is naiive and idealistic.
Besides that, for anyone arguing that "you just need to get used to the new blink" - I'm not saying here that "blink is bad" but you have to understand the mathematical fact that nerfing blink's acceleration makes A) fades significantly easier to block, B) dodging behind walls and evasive maneuvers more time consuming for the same directional changes, and therefore less effective, and C) hit and run fading more difficult by preventing instant 180's thus requiring either more time spent in the heat of the firefight or an alternate (unexplored, highly block-ready) exit being utilized.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Acceleration isn't slower the rate of fire is, which means you must simply push the button differently. I honestly am not seeing a difference in speed since I got use to it.
AND YOU CANT BALANCE A PUB, CHRIST. Go to one pub, everyone will tell you marines are overpowered, go to another and aliens are overpowered, and another thinks its perfect. Balancing it for more or less than 6v6 would require them to completely chagne the res system(NOT A BAD IDEA AT ALL), which they wont be doing.
Yes, I did that intentionally. Why? Because Carapace ... a pretty terrible upgrade with 1-Hive armor.
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ahahahahahahahaha *rolls on floor crying*
Acceleration isn't slower the rate of fire is, which means you must simply push the button differently. I honestly am not seeing a difference in speed since I got use to it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If rate of fire is slower, it means the ability triggers less times in a given second. If the ability triggers less times in a given second, that means it takes more time to get as many fires out of it, and therefore, since A) one fire does not send you to max speed, and B) you cannot fire multiple times at once, it takes more time to get it up to max speed. If it takes more time to get it up to max speed, then its acceleration is decreased.
<!--QuoteBegin-Cxwf+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Cxwf)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes, I did that intentionally. Why? Because Carapace is ... a pretty terrible upgrade with 1-Hive armor.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->ahahahahahahahaha *rolls on floor crying*
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Carapace Increase in Onos life-expectancy (1-Hive): 22.8%
Carapace Increase in Onos life-expectancy (3-Hive): 42.0%
1-Hive Carapace on an Onos is a joke. Obviously I'm not dissing Carapace on skulks, but just for the sake of comparison:
Carapace Increase in Skulk life-expectancy (1-Hive): 44.4%
Carapace Increase in Skulk life-expectancy (3-Hive): 60.0%
Now remind me why you get Carapace as a 1-Hive Onos again? For <i>twenty two percent</i> more life?
ahahahahahahahaha *rolls on floor crying*
Carapace Increase in Onos life-expectancy (1-Hive): 22.8%
Carapace Increase in Onos life-expectancy (3-Hive): 42.0%
1-Hive Carapace on an Onos is a joke. Obviously I'm not dissing Carapace on skulks, but just for the sake of comparison:
Carapace Increase in Skulk life-expectancy (1-Hive): 44.4%
Carapace Increase in Skulk life-expectancy (3-Hive): 60.0%
Now remind me why you get Carapace as a 1-Hive Onos again? For <i>twenty two percent</i> more life?
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You won't be able to spend all your extra carapace armour with one hive, anyway. You'll die before that. (if you haven't taken that into consideration already).
cxwf changes his argument every time he loses, aww bless ;p
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You <i>could</i> say that, but that would require making up facts out of thin air.
It would be more accurate to say that when people intentionally distort my words, or completely miss the meaning of what I said, then I make an attempt to explain myself more clearly.
On the other hand, you seem to be reveling in getting me to "concede" that skulks still like Carapace, as if a lifeform with 10 armor would care about Hive armor, or be useful in a late-game base-breaking, while completely ignoring the actual questions I raised about Fades and Onos. Does that qualify as changing your argument when you lose?
What I was saying is that Hive 3 aliens lack the tools to properly finish off a marine team that they have beaten in the field. Marines can lose all of their res nodes, be pushed back into marine spawn, and then hold out another thirty minutes before the aliens can finish the game. That <i>shouldn't happen</i>. Not only is it bad balance, but its no fun for anyone involved. And heaven help you if the Marines re-located into a hive site. Two hive aliens will <i>never</i> get the job done.
Carapace still works. Why? Because when you use an onos you will 1) use devour which will help regenerate health before armor, and 2) will take damage on and off before going in letting innate regeneration come into effect and regenerate health before armor.
So the life expectancy of the onos has drastically decreased when charging HMG marines head on in a do-or-die scenario at two hives or later. That's undisputable. It might even be a balance problem in some situations, but is it a game play problem? I honestly do not think it is.
Note the distinction between game play and and balance.
What I was saying is that Hive 3 aliens lack the tools to properly finish off a marine team that they have beaten in the field. Marines can lose all of their res nodes, be pushed back into marine spawn, and then hold out another thirty minutes before the aliens can finish the game. That <i>shouldn't happen</i>. Not only is it bad balance, but its no fun for anyone involved. And heaven help you if the Marines re-located into a hive site. Two hive aliens will <i>never</i> get the job done.
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I would rather say that marines are too strong without decent res income after each upgrade is researched than aliens lack the tools to finish them off. Marines spawn with lvl3 WU/AU and don't loose weapons that are dropped by dead marines. They stay in ms and don't have to invest much res to stay powerful unlike aliens at 1 hive and 1 rt.
I'd love to see spawning rines cost ressources depending on their armor- and maybe even weapon-lvl (e.g.: vanilla=0 res .. lvl3 (WU/)AU=3 res). The commander could change the quality of spawning marines at the infantry portal. This would also add some scalable balance regarding the arms lab.
But i'm pretty sure this change would be too huge to the res system concerning balance and testing.
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->Hive / Carapace / Effective HP / HMG Level3 bullets to kill
> 1 NO 1900 74 (=60% clip)
> 2 NO 2200 85 (=68% clip)
> 3 NO 2500 97 (=78% clip)
> 1 YES 2600 100 (=80% clip)
> 2 YES 3075 119 (=96% clip)
> 3 YES 3550 137 (=1 clip and 10%)<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
A much more interesting argument is 2hive alien v fully teched tier3 marines, which is a damn hard fight for aliens but res is the determining factor in this outcome so it totally depends how youre playing the field. And quite frankly in these fights aliens have to use every trick at their disposal and there is no time to mess about, this isnt focus fade gg land you actually have to think about your map control <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
a 3 hive bunker is EASILY defeated by umbraed acid rocketing fades, notice how i dont even bother mentioning things like primal scream <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> and a strong mix of units will walk over them asif they were nothing <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> BECAUSE were assuming that theyre already economically devastated :/
cxwf <b>changes his argument every time he loses</b>, aww bless ;p<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
*cough*
Anyway, you're missing the point again. iff the aliens get the hive up, they have a shot at demolishing the marine base. Locking down one hive is cake, and fighting for that hive concentrates fire. Hive 2 aliens can't break that, that's all (I think) the problem is.
EDIT: I noticed what the reason is that I don't "enjoy" blink as much anymore, it's Z-axis predictability. With the old blink you could "fly" as I said before, with this one you basically hop fast (or burn out all your adren staying aloft). So damage is increased probably for that reason more than any other.