<!--quoteo(post=1582098:date=Nov 29 2006, 10:50 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Zek @ Nov 29 2006, 10:50 PM) [snapback]1582098[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->it would require some sort of limitation on turning speed though since it would be silly for an Onos to be spinning back and forth all the time to keep his head pointed at marines<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't think this is a problem at all really; as long as you're not in a tight corridor(and then you're doomed regardless of onos sensitivity) you can just flank the onos. He can't change direction fast enough to block every bullet.
<!--quoteo(post=1581988:date=Nov 29 2006, 03:32 PM:name=Skyrage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Skyrage @ Nov 29 2006, 03:32 PM) [snapback]1581988[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I was talking about beefing it up to roughly 1.04 standards, when it took a crapload to bring one Onos down, who by that time could cause pretty immense damage and casualties.
I want the onos to cause extreme worries for the marines once they realize that the aliens have one - just like it did in 1.04. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> techincally if you were good with your hitboxes all aliens were easily killed by an lmg marine. even the mighty onos could be torn to pieces by a rambo marine <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
<!--quoteo(post=1582119:date=Nov 29 2006, 05:58 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Align @ Nov 29 2006, 05:58 PM) [snapback]1582119[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I don't think this is a problem at all really; as long as you're not in a tight corridor(and then you're doomed regardless of onos sensitivity) you can just flank the onos. He can't change direction fast enough to block every bullet. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Even if it's not a balance problem, I just think it would be dumb. The Onos is supposed to be a giant tank, he shouldn't be that maneuverable, spinning all over the place to cover his flank from everybody in the room. It's alright now because it doesn't make any difference which way he's facing, but if the direction you shot him from were a serious factor, then making sure nobody gets behind him should be a tactical consideration on the part of the Onos and his team rather than a matter of twitch reflexes.
The problem with beefing up the onos as it currently stands is that the movement system prevents it from ever being anything but a hit and run device. An alien that can go up ladders, accelerate to full speed quickly, charge, etc. will always "hit and run." All that increasing health and armor does is allow it to "hit" longer.
I'd say an idealized Onos would be one that (this probably would never happen on the HL1 engine) operates like mechs did in Mechwarrior3. Non-direct turning, slow acceleration, and varying levels of armor depending on location.
<!--quoteo(post=1582146:date=Nov 29 2006, 07:32 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Zek @ Nov 29 2006, 07:32 PM) [snapback]1582146[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Even if it's not a balance problem, I just think it would be dumb. The Onos is supposed to be a giant tank, he shouldn't be that maneuverable, spinning all over the place to cover his flank from everybody in the room. It's alright now because it doesn't make any difference which way he's facing, but if the direction you shot him from were a serious factor, then making sure nobody gets behind him should be a tactical consideration on the part of the Onos and his team rather than a matter of twitch reflexes. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can't change direction fast enough to block every bullet from guns that fire one bullet every 10th of a second (or whatever it is). See this post:
<!--quoteo(post=1582119:date=Nov 29 2006, 05:58 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Align @ Nov 29 2006, 05:58 PM) [snapback]1582119[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I don't think this is a problem at all really; as long as you're not in a tight corridor(and then you're doomed regardless of onos sensitivity) you can just flank the onos. He can't change direction fast enough to block every bullet. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And as a sidenote on that post, this would utterly solve the situation of marines having the advantage in a long narrow hallway, thus giving the onos a real *job* that the fade can't do, that is, tanking in long narrow areas. I realize fades can blink through long coridoors (I do it regularly) but 3 hmgs will kill you. If the onos could take over that role, he could be used as a real tactical device instead of just another all-purpose fat angry space cow.
I think you guys really need to leave your "atmospheric" crap behind. I mean sure, you WANT to have the game simulate Alien, but as a game it never will.
NS isn't a movie, it's a game. And as a game, we are more concerned about how the game plays and how balanced it is, rather than how it emotionally affects people.
If you want a game that does cause people to be scared or cry, save that for a singleplayer game, where you can have the player be all macho and have the cpu enemies as dumb as a fork.
Making a game on atmosphere and having these preconceived notions of how things are "supposed" to be won't get you anywhere. It's more like an anchor holding you down.
Marines are supposed to be a game about teamwork. But all it is, is just the guy behind you, shooting at the same target. Also, aliens are supposed to be self-reliant, yet we need skulks to parasite, gorges to heal, lerks to umbra...
Also, the "image" of the onos, counteracts the function of the onos. We WANT something that's hard to kill and screams terror. But at the same time, you have to make it have a weakness, which is something every game should have. Screw the image. Go with what makes the game better.
Again, save all your emotions for a singleplayer game. As a multiplayer game, put gameplay and balance up first.
<!--quoteo(post=1582167:date=Nov 29 2006, 08:12 PM:name=Harrower)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Harrower @ Nov 29 2006, 08:12 PM) [snapback]1582167[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> You can't change direction fast enough to block every bullet from guns that fire one bullet every 10th of a second (or whatever it is). See this post:<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Like I said, I'm not talking from a balance standpoint. Suppose an Onos kills one guy in front of him, then somebody jumps out from behind, and the Onos flips around 180 in half a second and hardly takes any damage. It's immersion breaking. An Onos would be completely impervious to any single marine no matter where he's standing. Giving the Onos tank controls would make them more like a siege weapon than a really big gorge with a plate on its head.
There's another side. NS would be pretty boring if all the maps looked like ns_siege007. That's not meant as a slight against siege; siege is just not meant to be a pretty map and consequently isn't. Mainstream mapping for Natural-selection is an incredible feat between the huge .wads full of textures and the hours spent tweaking, compiling, and fixing leaks to create dramatic lighting. All of that effort is geared towards making NS a spectacular game to be a part of instead of just to play with.
Gameplay and balance are the pillars of a game, but it's not fair to drape bland graphics and sounds over them and call it a game. Similarly, weak gameplay may buckle under the weight of overworked art. The fortress will stand when the artwork and the mechanics reinforce each other, the artwork implying the nature of the game and the game fulfilling the promise of the art.
<!--quoteo(post=1582194:date=Nov 29 2006, 09:43 PM:name=SmoodCroozn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SmoodCroozn @ Nov 29 2006, 09:43 PM) [snapback]1582194[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I think you guys really need to leave your "atmospheric" crap behind. I mean sure, you WANT to have the game simulate Alien, but as a game it never will.
NS isn't a movie, it's a game. And as a game, we are more concerned about how the game plays and how balanced it is, rather than how it emotionally affects people.
If you want a game that does cause people to be scared or cry, save that for a singleplayer game, where you can have the player be all macho and have the cpu enemies as dumb as a fork.
Making a game on atmosphere and having these preconceived notions of how things are "supposed" to be won't get you anywhere. It's more like an anchor holding you down.
Marines are supposed to be a game about teamwork. But all it is, is just the guy behind you, shooting at the same target. Also, aliens are supposed to be self-reliant, yet we need skulks to parasite, gorges to heal, lerks to umbra...
Also, the "image" of the onos, counteracts the function of the onos. We WANT something that's hard to kill and screams terror. But at the same time, you have to make it have a weakness, which is something every game should have. Screw the image. Go with what makes the game better.
Again, save all your emotions for a singleplayer game. As a multiplayer game, put gameplay and balance up first. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Give me a break. Nobody's asking to turn NS into an epic tale of love and loss. This is a game, and games are about more than measuring skill and deciding who wins. Playing a character that really feels convincing makes the game more fun. For example, the current Fade is nothing but a human-shaped Skulk with a glorified Leap, whereas the original concept of the lifeform was to be a teleporting death machine. Implementing a teleportation-based Blink would be a giant leap in the atmosphere of the game, but would you shoot down that idea just because what we have now is balanced? It's the same with the Onos. They're a huge, hulking rhinoceros alien, and yet they can spin around on their heels just as fast as a Skulk. I don't care if it's balanced, it's retarded. Obviously this is all outside the scope of 3.2, but it's something that should be on the drawing board for NS2 while we'll not too entrenched in current design.
<!--quoteo(post=1582206:date=Nov 29 2006, 07:31 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Zek @ Nov 29 2006, 07:31 PM) [snapback]1582206[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Give me a break. Nobody's asking to turn NS into an epic tale of love and loss. This is a game, and games are about more than measuring skill and deciding who wins. Playing a character that really feels convincing makes the game more fun. For example, the current Fade is nothing but a human-shaped Skulk with a glorified Leap, whereas the original concept of the lifeform was to be a teleporting death machine. Implementing a teleportation-based Blink would be a giant leap in the atmosphere of the game, but would you shoot down that idea just because what we have now is balanced? It's the same with the Onos. They're a huge, hulking rhinoceros alien, and yet they can spin around on their heels just as fast as a Skulk. I don't care if it's balanced, it's retarded. Obviously this is all outside the scope of 3.2, but it's something that should be on the drawing board for NS2 while we'll not too entrenched in current design. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> A few minutes ago, you were arguing about immersion breaking...
Last time I checked, games WERE about measuring who's better than the other player, that being skill, intelligence or whatever.
If playing an alien in the future is "convincing" for you, that's great. But don't forget that's subjective.
A teleporting death machine... I would shoot it down if the game can't be played with it.
And so what if they can spin around like a skulk? If the game can be played, that's all that matters. Last time I checked, games were about playing, not the themes.
The point is that NS isn't the four feet of the onos or the fat trunk of the gorge. It's the bare bones gameplay as in getting resources, upgrading and dominating. It's not the alien versus human scenario - plenty of games have done that. It's the fusion of FPS and somewhat RTS gamestyles.
The atmosphere is merely the clothes of the game, while the gameplay is the flesh. If you changed your pants, are you still the same person?
Take chess. If we take out the king, queen, bishop royal crap and throw in potatoes as pawns, carrots as knights, etc., is it the same game?
Likewise, we all loved the spinning door in bast, but we HAD to take it out. Obviously the cost of balance is greater than that of artistic value. So stop saying how things "should be" based on atmosphere and change them for the better balance of the game. If having the onos run around like a pansy means the game is balanced for the better, so be it.
i don't see whats wrong with the current onos. the only problem with it in 3.1 was blocking, which has since been resolved by ghost structures and knockback(?).
just btw... did anyone play lerk already? usualy I realy rock as lerk, but... honestly...WTH. I've played combat... Celerity is almost useless...you cant escape anymore...lerk is toooooooo slow! in short: you are kind of ###### up with lerk vs. a good shotgunner (co or ns doesn't matter)
3.2 is extremely balanced and a much more fun and enjoyable game because it doesn't revolve around the second hive quite as much, like if they kill your second hive you can still come back. New fade blink is really good, maybe the maximum speed for a non-celerity blink could be slightly (only slightly) increased, new lerk is good, hive chambers thing rocks, all chambers are viable, aliens need far more teamwork now than they used to need.
<!--quoteo(post=1582269:date=Nov 30 2006, 03:05 AM:name=TerRaKanE)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TerRaKanE @ Nov 30 2006, 03:05 AM) [snapback]1582269[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> just btw... did anyone play lerk already? usualy I realy rock as lerk, but... honestly...WTH. I've played combat... Celerity is almost useless...you cant escape anymore...lerk is toooooooo slow! in short: you are kind of ###### up with lerk vs. a good shotgunner (co or ns doesn't matter) <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A lerk could never attack a shotgunner anyway, i don't know what you're talking about.
I mean sitiations where you usualy were able to escape (arround corners etc). where probably a 2nd shotgun shot didn't hit you anymore. But now you get at least 2 more shots in while escaping. They removed pancaking, thats fine, but lerk is too slow now imho. It's realy tooooo easy to hit him now at "full speed". Just wanted to mention it...its not necessary someone aggrees with me, but still...
<!--quoteo(post=1582271:date=Nov 30 2006, 08:25 AM:name=haymo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(haymo @ Nov 30 2006, 08:25 AM) [snapback]1582271[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> like if they kill your second hive you can still come back. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The patch changed this somehow? Or is it just the old way of rt munching and conrolling until marines fail to take out a growing hive and the 2nd hive eventually goes up?
<!--quoteo(post=1582261:date=Nov 30 2006, 02:23 AM:name=enigma)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(enigma @ Nov 30 2006, 02:23 AM) [snapback]1582261[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> i don't see whats wrong with the current onos. the only problem with it in 3.1 was blocking, which has since been resolved by ghost structures and knockback(?). <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's an awful lot of res for a very glasscannonish creature that's (as far as I know) only good for biting down rts and munching heavies. I liked the idea of a head shield because it gives the onos the frightening quality, and *cough* *smood* *cough* improves the gameplay by granting the onos a high-impact job that the fade can't touch, that is, tanking down long narrow corridoors.
A lerk could never attack a shotgunner anyway, i don't know what you're talking about. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ummm, just a little hint. Never use extremities in your arguements, as more often than not you will be proven wrong.
To counter your arguement, I have seen lerks take down shotgunners plenty of times without so much as getting shot once. On the flip side, I have seen shotgunners kill lerks without getting hit as well. Your statement implies a sort of "hard counter" such as ones in starcraft, (i.e. Scout vs. Firebat, Zealot vs. Guardian, Wraith vs. Zergling) where as the Scout Guardian and Wraith will win 1 million times out of 1 million, simply because the other units cannot return fire.
However, that Starcraft is an RTS game, NS is a Quasi RTS/FPS, meaning all of the games units can damage each other given the right circumstances. Because of this, lerks CAN beat shotgunners, and they can also get totally owned. Its based on the players in the given situation, the enviornment, and the stressors that are on both players at the time.
pSyk0mAnNerdish by NatureGermanyJoin Date: 2003-08-07Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
<!--quoteo(post=1582326:date=Nov 30 2006, 08:13 AM:name=Harrower)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Harrower @ Nov 30 2006, 08:13 AM) [snapback]1582326[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I liked the idea of a head shield because it gives the onos the frightening quality, and *cough* *smood* *cough* improves the gameplay by granting the onos a high-impact job that the fade can't touch, that is, tanking down long narrow corridoors. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'd love to see grenades bouncing off the head shield. That way those poor little supporters (aka gorge and lerk) behind the onos won't die to a direct hit onos.
lol firewarter... honestly. I'm realy everything else than a noob ok? I know how to lerk. I know how to beat marines with lerk (on CO) and I do know pretty well that a lerk isnt meant to kill a crowd SGs or to even kill one (especialy not in classic). Now tell me: "Why did it work fine before?" (and dont argue with pancake, even without it went pretty well) and now you realy get raped, and it's not because I am bad (did we straightned that out now? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" /> )
I am just saying: Lerk is too slow now. A Lerk is a too easy target now...I dont even wanna imagine how this turns in competetive games out. (and thats not because pancaking was removed, its cause of the cel-speed reduction) just bring the old cel speed back and everything will be fine.
YES MAKA !! OF COURSE IT IS STILL POSSIBLE, I KNOW! ;P
I like this SmoothCrodzn guy. Some intelligence on these boards is refreshing.
Lerks aren't too slow now. They have been made to fit what their role was designed to be. They are a support unit now. They need to gas, and attack at correct times, rather than just flying in and pancaking like mad against a full health full armor full ammo marine. Lerks still CAN pancake, i've seen good ones do it. The pancake isn't as drastic now. It's still difficult to shoot, but it is a lot more possible now.
<!--quoteo(post=1582254:date=Nov 30 2006, 01:58 AM:name=SmoodCroozn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SmoodCroozn @ Nov 30 2006, 01:58 AM) [snapback]1582254[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> A few minutes ago, you were arguing about immersion breaking...
Last time I checked, games WERE about measuring who's better than the other player, that being skill, intelligence or whatever.
If playing an alien in the future is "convincing" for you, that's great. But don't forget that's subjective.
A teleporting death machine... I would shoot it down if the game can't be played with it.
And so what if they can spin around like a skulk? If the game can be played, that's all that matters. Last time I checked, games were about playing, not the themes.
The point is that NS isn't the four feet of the onos or the fat trunk of the gorge. It's the bare bones gameplay as in getting resources, upgrading and dominating. It's not the alien versus human scenario - plenty of games have done that. It's the fusion of FPS and somewhat RTS gamestyles.
The atmosphere is merely the clothes of the game, while the gameplay is the flesh. If you changed your pants, are you still the same person?
Take chess. If we take out the king, queen, bishop royal crap and throw in potatoes as pawns, carrots as knights, etc., is it the same game?
Likewise, we all loved the spinning door in bast, but we HAD to take it out. Obviously the cost of balance is greater than that of artistic value. So stop saying how things "should be" based on atmosphere and change them for the better balance of the game. If having the onos run around like a pansy means the game is balanced for the better, so be it. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think he's trying to promote a new breed of NS where there's no weapons and all we can do to win is stare each other down.
<!--quoteo(post=1582271:date=Nov 30 2006, 03:25 AM:name=haymo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(haymo @ Nov 30 2006, 03:25 AM) [snapback]1582271[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> A lerk could never attack a shotgunner anyway, i don't know what you're talking about. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I just did two nights ago...took out the whole pressure team in fusion alone. It's still possible to dominate, but I think if you looked at the levels of ability for lerking, 3.2 put everyone down a notch. Which I think kind of sucks, but it is a good change. The marines weren't really getting any better at hitting them, and you generally need a mean snap reflex with a shotgun to take one out in a big room. So much for "adapt"ing <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />. But with that shortcoming in mind, again, it is probably for the best.
<!--quoteo(post=1582391:date=Nov 30 2006, 12:20 PM:name=TerRaKanE)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TerRaKanE @ Nov 30 2006, 12:20 PM) [snapback]1582391[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> lol firewarter... honestly. I'm realy everything else than a noob ok? I know how to lerk. I know how to beat marines with lerk (on CO) and I do know pretty well that a lerk isnt meant to kill a crowd SGs or to even kill one (especialy not in classic). Now tell me: "Why did it work fine before?" (and dont argue with pancake, even without it went pretty well) and now you realy get raped, and it's not because I am bad (did we straightned that out now? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" /> )
I am just saying: Lerk is too slow now. A Lerk is a too easy target now...I dont even wanna imagine how this turns in competetive games out. (and thats not because pancaking was removed, its cause of the cel-speed reduction) just bring the old cel speed back and everything will be fine. YES MAKA !! OF COURSE IT IS STILL POSSIBLE, I KNOW! ;P <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I dunno why you are singling me out, my comment was not directed towards you.
I see all this talk of this supposed to be this and that. But unless you remove the ability to do the act, people are still going to do it.
Marines are supposed to be about teamwork and whatever, but we still have marines taking center hives by themselves, because they are so skilled, even though they are SUPPOSED to stick with others.
This SUPPOSED stuff doesn't work because of skill. So even if a lerk is SUPPOSED to die to a shotgun, if the lerk is good enough, he can break that supposed-to-be crap and own shotgunners based on his skill.
Slowing the lerk down won't stop people from lerk ramboing, but it does make it harder, which will detract some of the offensive lerks. But until you remove lerks from ramboing with a hard counter as Firewater said, people will still lerk in an aggressive way.
So if you really want a "SUPPOSED-TO-BE" idea to work, you have to make it physically impossible to do, like a guardian versus a wraith in Starcraft. If you don't a player will break that SUPPOSED function based on skill.
<!--quoteo(post=1582491:date=Nov 30 2006, 06:12 PM:name=TOmekki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TOmekki @ Nov 30 2006, 06:12 PM) [snapback]1582491[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> those marines mustve been pretty bad <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lastly, directed with love to tmk:
Please stop pretending you''re Swirl, it''s getting tiresome. You''re not funny and you''re certainly not clever. You''re just another dime-a-dozen wannabe.
My observations: Too hard for aliens to hold rts on large maps. Once marines tech, aliens have great difficulty competing with 2 hives. Aliens typically only win with MC + DC under two hives or a quick win from the start (before marines can get lvl 2 armor/weapons).
Comments
I don't think this is a problem at all really; as long as you're not in a tight corridor(and then you're doomed regardless of onos sensitivity) you can just flank the onos. He can't change direction fast enough to block every bullet.
I was talking about beefing it up to roughly 1.04 standards, when it took a crapload to bring one Onos down, who by that time could cause pretty immense damage and casualties.
I want the onos to cause extreme worries for the marines once they realize that the aliens have one - just like it did in 1.04.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
techincally if you were good with your hitboxes all aliens were easily killed by an lmg marine. even the mighty onos could be torn to pieces by a rambo marine <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
I don't think this is a problem at all really; as long as you're not in a tight corridor(and then you're doomed regardless of onos sensitivity) you can just flank the onos. He can't change direction fast enough to block every bullet.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Even if it's not a balance problem, I just think it would be dumb. The Onos is supposed to be a giant tank, he shouldn't be that maneuverable, spinning all over the place to cover his flank from everybody in the room. It's alright now because it doesn't make any difference which way he's facing, but if the direction you shot him from were a serious factor, then making sure nobody gets behind him should be a tactical consideration on the part of the Onos and his team rather than a matter of twitch reflexes.
I'd say an idealized Onos would be one that (this probably would never happen on the HL1 engine) operates like mechs did in Mechwarrior3. Non-direct turning, slow acceleration, and varying levels of armor depending on location.
Even if it's not a balance problem, I just think it would be dumb. The Onos is supposed to be a giant tank, he shouldn't be that maneuverable, spinning all over the place to cover his flank from everybody in the room. It's alright now because it doesn't make any difference which way he's facing, but if the direction you shot him from were a serious factor, then making sure nobody gets behind him should be a tactical consideration on the part of the Onos and his team rather than a matter of twitch reflexes.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can't change direction fast enough to block every bullet from guns that fire one bullet every 10th of a second (or whatever it is). See this post:
<!--quoteo(post=1582119:date=Nov 29 2006, 05:58 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Align @ Nov 29 2006, 05:58 PM) [snapback]1582119[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
I don't think this is a problem at all really; as long as you're not in a tight corridor(and then you're doomed regardless of onos sensitivity) you can just flank the onos. He can't change direction fast enough to block every bullet.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And as a sidenote on that post, this would utterly solve the situation of marines having the advantage in a long narrow hallway, thus giving the onos a real *job* that the fade can't do, that is, tanking in long narrow areas. I realize fades can blink through long coridoors (I do it regularly) but 3 hmgs will kill you. If the onos could take over that role, he could be used as a real tactical device instead of just another all-purpose fat angry space cow.
NS isn't a movie, it's a game. And as a game, we are more concerned about how the game plays and how balanced it is, rather than how it emotionally affects people.
If you want a game that does cause people to be scared or cry, save that for a singleplayer game, where you can have the player be all macho and have the cpu enemies as dumb as a fork.
Making a game on atmosphere and having these preconceived notions of how things are "supposed" to be won't get you anywhere. It's more like an anchor holding you down.
Marines are supposed to be a game about teamwork. But all it is, is just the guy behind you, shooting at the same target. Also, aliens are supposed to be self-reliant, yet we need skulks to parasite, gorges to heal, lerks to umbra...
Also, the "image" of the onos, counteracts the function of the onos. We WANT something that's hard to kill and screams terror. But at the same time, you have to make it have a weakness, which is something every game should have. Screw the image. Go with what makes the game better.
Again, save all your emotions for a singleplayer game. As a multiplayer game, put gameplay and balance up first.
You can't change direction fast enough to block every bullet from guns that fire one bullet every 10th of a second (or whatever it is). See this post:<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Like I said, I'm not talking from a balance standpoint. Suppose an Onos kills one guy in front of him, then somebody jumps out from behind, and the Onos flips around 180 in half a second and hardly takes any damage. It's immersion breaking. An Onos would be completely impervious to any single marine no matter where he's standing. Giving the Onos tank controls would make them more like a siege weapon than a really big gorge with a plate on its head.
Gameplay and balance are the pillars of a game, but it's not fair to drape bland graphics and sounds over them and call it a game. Similarly, weak gameplay may buckle under the weight of overworked art. The fortress will stand when the artwork and the mechanics reinforce each other, the artwork implying the nature of the game and the game fulfilling the promise of the art.
Atmospheric gameplay is not the enemy of a multiplayer game.
I think you guys really need to leave your "atmospheric" crap behind. I mean sure, you WANT to have the game simulate Alien, but as a game it never will.
NS isn't a movie, it's a game. And as a game, we are more concerned about how the game plays and how balanced it is, rather than how it emotionally affects people.
If you want a game that does cause people to be scared or cry, save that for a singleplayer game, where you can have the player be all macho and have the cpu enemies as dumb as a fork.
Making a game on atmosphere and having these preconceived notions of how things are "supposed" to be won't get you anywhere. It's more like an anchor holding you down.
Marines are supposed to be a game about teamwork. But all it is, is just the guy behind you, shooting at the same target. Also, aliens are supposed to be self-reliant, yet we need skulks to parasite, gorges to heal, lerks to umbra...
Also, the "image" of the onos, counteracts the function of the onos. We WANT something that's hard to kill and screams terror. But at the same time, you have to make it have a weakness, which is something every game should have. Screw the image. Go with what makes the game better.
Again, save all your emotions for a singleplayer game. As a multiplayer game, put gameplay and balance up first.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Give me a break. Nobody's asking to turn NS into an epic tale of love and loss. This is a game, and games are about more than measuring skill and deciding who wins. Playing a character that really feels convincing makes the game more fun. For example, the current Fade is nothing but a human-shaped Skulk with a glorified Leap, whereas the original concept of the lifeform was to be a teleporting death machine. Implementing a teleportation-based Blink would be a giant leap in the atmosphere of the game, but would you shoot down that idea just because what we have now is balanced? It's the same with the Onos. They're a huge, hulking rhinoceros alien, and yet they can spin around on their heels just as fast as a Skulk. I don't care if it's balanced, it's retarded. Obviously this is all outside the scope of 3.2, but it's something that should be on the drawing board for NS2 while we'll not too entrenched in current design.
Give me a break. Nobody's asking to turn NS into an epic tale of love and loss. This is a game, and games are about more than measuring skill and deciding who wins. Playing a character that really feels convincing makes the game more fun. For example, the current Fade is nothing but a human-shaped Skulk with a glorified Leap, whereas the original concept of the lifeform was to be a teleporting death machine. Implementing a teleportation-based Blink would be a giant leap in the atmosphere of the game, but would you shoot down that idea just because what we have now is balanced? It's the same with the Onos. They're a huge, hulking rhinoceros alien, and yet they can spin around on their heels just as fast as a Skulk. I don't care if it's balanced, it's retarded. Obviously this is all outside the scope of 3.2, but it's something that should be on the drawing board for NS2 while we'll not too entrenched in current design.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A few minutes ago, you were arguing about immersion breaking...
Last time I checked, games WERE about measuring who's better than the other player, that being skill, intelligence or whatever.
If playing an alien in the future is "convincing" for you, that's great. But don't forget that's subjective.
A teleporting death machine... I would shoot it down if the game can't be played with it.
And so what if they can spin around like a skulk? If the game can be played, that's all that matters. Last time I checked, games were about playing, not the themes.
The point is that NS isn't the four feet of the onos or the fat trunk of the gorge. It's the bare bones gameplay as in getting resources, upgrading and dominating. It's not the alien versus human scenario - plenty of games have done that. It's the fusion of FPS and somewhat RTS gamestyles.
The atmosphere is merely the clothes of the game, while the gameplay is the flesh. If you changed your pants, are you still the same person?
Take chess. If we take out the king, queen, bishop royal crap and throw in potatoes as pawns, carrots as knights, etc., is it the same game?
Likewise, we all loved the spinning door in bast, but we HAD to take it out. Obviously the cost of balance is greater than that of artistic value. So stop saying how things "should be" based on atmosphere and change them for the better balance of the game. If having the onos run around like a pansy means the game is balanced for the better, so be it.
usualy I realy rock as lerk, but... honestly...WTH.
I've played combat... Celerity is almost useless...you cant escape anymore...lerk is toooooooo slow!
in short: you are kind of ###### up with lerk vs. a good shotgunner (co or ns doesn't matter)
<!--quoteo(post=1582269:date=Nov 30 2006, 03:05 AM:name=TerRaKanE)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TerRaKanE @ Nov 30 2006, 03:05 AM) [snapback]1582269[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
just btw... did anyone play lerk already?
usualy I realy rock as lerk, but... honestly...WTH.
I've played combat... Celerity is almost useless...you cant escape anymore...lerk is toooooooo slow!
in short: you are kind of ###### up with lerk vs. a good shotgunner (co or ns doesn't matter)
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A lerk could never attack a shotgunner anyway, i don't know what you're talking about.
They removed pancaking, thats fine, but lerk is too slow now imho. It's realy tooooo easy to hit him now at "full speed". Just wanted to mention it...its not necessary someone aggrees with me, but still...
like if they kill your second hive you can still come back.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The patch changed this somehow? Or is it just the old way of rt munching and conrolling until marines fail to take out a growing hive and the 2nd hive eventually goes up?
i don't see whats wrong with the current onos. the only problem with it in 3.1 was blocking, which has since been resolved by ghost structures and knockback(?).
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's an awful lot of res for a very glasscannonish creature that's (as far as I know) only good for biting down rts and munching heavies. I liked the idea of a head shield because it gives the onos the frightening quality, and *cough* *smood* *cough* improves the gameplay by granting the onos a high-impact job that the fade can't touch, that is, tanking down long narrow corridoors.
A lerk could never attack a shotgunner anyway, i don't know what you're talking about.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ummm, just a little hint. Never use extremities in your arguements, as more often than not you will be proven wrong.
To counter your arguement, I have seen lerks take down shotgunners plenty of times without so much as getting shot once. On the flip side, I have seen shotgunners kill lerks without getting hit as well. Your statement implies a sort of "hard counter" such as ones in starcraft, (i.e. Scout vs. Firebat, Zealot vs. Guardian, Wraith vs. Zergling) where as the Scout Guardian and Wraith will win 1 million times out of 1 million, simply because the other units cannot return fire.
However, that Starcraft is an RTS game, NS is a Quasi RTS/FPS, meaning all of the games units can damage each other given the right circumstances. Because of this, lerks CAN beat shotgunners, and they can also get totally owned. Its based on the players in the given situation, the enviornment, and the stressors that are on both players at the time.
I liked the idea of a head shield because it gives the onos the frightening quality, and *cough* *smood* *cough* improves the gameplay by granting the onos a high-impact job that the fade can't touch, that is, tanking down long narrow corridoors.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd love to see grenades bouncing off the head shield.
That way those poor little supporters (aka gorge and lerk) behind the onos won't die to a direct hit onos.
I know how to lerk. I know how to beat marines with lerk (on CO) and I do know pretty well that a lerk isnt meant to kill a crowd SGs or to even kill one (especialy not in classic). Now tell me: "Why did it work fine before?" (and dont argue with pancake, even without it went pretty well) and now you realy get raped, and it's not because I am bad (did we straightned that out now? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" /> )
I am just saying: Lerk is too slow now. A Lerk is a too easy target now...I dont even wanna imagine how this turns in competetive games out.
(and thats not because pancaking was removed, its cause of the cel-speed reduction)
just bring the old cel speed back and everything will be fine.
YES MAKA !!
OF COURSE IT IS STILL POSSIBLE, I KNOW! ;P
Lerks aren't too slow now. They have been made to fit what their role was designed to be. They are a support unit now. They need to gas, and attack at correct times, rather than just flying in and pancaking like mad against a full health full armor full ammo marine. Lerks still CAN pancake, i've seen good ones do it. The pancake isn't as drastic now. It's still difficult to shoot, but it is a lot more possible now.
A few minutes ago, you were arguing about immersion breaking...
Last time I checked, games WERE about measuring who's better than the other player, that being skill, intelligence or whatever.
If playing an alien in the future is "convincing" for you, that's great. But don't forget that's subjective.
A teleporting death machine... I would shoot it down if the game can't be played with it.
And so what if they can spin around like a skulk? If the game can be played, that's all that matters. Last time I checked, games were about playing, not the themes.
The point is that NS isn't the four feet of the onos or the fat trunk of the gorge. It's the bare bones gameplay as in getting resources, upgrading and dominating. It's not the alien versus human scenario - plenty of games have done that. It's the fusion of FPS and somewhat RTS gamestyles.
The atmosphere is merely the clothes of the game, while the gameplay is the flesh. If you changed your pants, are you still the same person?
Take chess. If we take out the king, queen, bishop royal crap and throw in potatoes as pawns, carrots as knights, etc., is it the same game?
Likewise, we all loved the spinning door in bast, but we HAD to take it out. Obviously the cost of balance is greater than that of artistic value. So stop saying how things "should be" based on atmosphere and change them for the better balance of the game. If having the onos run around like a pansy means the game is balanced for the better, so be it.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think he's trying to promote a new breed of NS where there's no weapons and all we can do to win is stare each other down.
A lerk could never attack a shotgunner anyway, i don't know what you're talking about.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I just did two nights ago...took out the whole pressure team in fusion alone. It's still possible to dominate, but I think if you looked at the levels of ability for lerking, 3.2 put everyone down a notch. Which I think kind of sucks, but it is a good change. The marines weren't really getting any better at hitting them, and you generally need a mean snap reflex with a shotgun to take one out in a big room. So much for "adapt"ing <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />. But with that shortcoming in mind, again, it is probably for the best.
lol firewarter... honestly. I'm realy everything else than a noob ok?
I know how to lerk. I know how to beat marines with lerk (on CO) and I do know pretty well that a lerk isnt meant to kill a crowd SGs or to even kill one (especialy not in classic). Now tell me: "Why did it work fine before?" (and dont argue with pancake, even without it went pretty well) and now you realy get raped, and it's not because I am bad (did we straightned that out now? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" /> )
I am just saying: Lerk is too slow now. A Lerk is a too easy target now...I dont even wanna imagine how this turns in competetive games out.
(and thats not because pancaking was removed, its cause of the cel-speed reduction)
just bring the old cel speed back and everything will be fine.
YES MAKA !!
OF COURSE IT IS STILL POSSIBLE, I KNOW! ;P
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I dunno why you are singling me out, my comment was not directed towards you.
Marines are supposed to be about teamwork and whatever, but we still have marines taking center hives by themselves, because they are so skilled, even though they are SUPPOSED to stick with others.
This SUPPOSED stuff doesn't work because of skill. So even if a lerk is SUPPOSED to die to a shotgun, if the lerk is good enough, he can break that supposed-to-be crap and own shotgunners based on his skill.
Slowing the lerk down won't stop people from lerk ramboing, but it does make it harder, which will detract some of the offensive lerks. But until you remove lerks from ramboing with a hard counter as Firewater said, people will still lerk in an aggressive way.
So if you really want a "SUPPOSED-TO-BE" idea to work, you have to make it physically impossible to do, like a guardian versus a wraith in Starcraft. If you don't a player will break that SUPPOSED function based on skill.
those marines mustve been pretty bad
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lastly, directed with love to tmk:
Please stop pretending you''re Swirl, it''s getting tiresome. You''re not funny and you''re certainly not clever. You''re just another dime-a-dozen wannabe.