X_StickmanNot good enough for a custom title.Join Date: 2003-04-15Member: 15533Members, Constellation
I'm going to be generous and assume that it's basically just a bug that they couldn't have found without having a worldwide release (anyone in the computer biz should know that you can test anything as much as you want on a small network, you'll never find all the possible bugs in years, whereas you release it worldwide and 50 people will find the same bug within 5 minutes).
Being able to find the same weapon repeatedly in particular seems like a bug. If there's no limit to how many times you can "find" the same weapon, and each weapon selection is random, then it's theoretically possible to just keep finding the same weapon every hour for a whole year. That seems like the kind of thing that even the dumbest member of the design team would pick up on as soon as it was mentioned.
So yeah, I'm gonna assume that most of the complaints are due to bugs and glitches that will be sorted out over the next week at the most. Valve are pretty good with community feedback and playtesting in general, I have faith in them.
That said, I haven't actually played the new unlock (although I have been following it's reception) yet. Had my final exam today so I was revising all thursday night, and then had my exam and was out celebrating all friday. Woot.
<!--quoteo(post=1707446:date=May 22 2009, 11:36 PM:name=X_Stickman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (X_Stickman @ May 22 2009, 11:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1707446"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Had my final exam today so I was revising all thursday night, and then had my exam and was out celebrating all friday. Woot.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I told you you'd probably be alright, didn't I? Yes, yes I did.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Valve Corp earns Achievement: Total Ragequit.
"Make a player uninstall the game."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> They already have it from when this whole mess started back with the medic update.
Insta-kill taunt while cloaked? Retarded. In fact, you know what? Insta-kill taunts are just retarded in general.
One step forward and two steps back is the right description of this unlock system. Sure, no more mandatory achievement farming, but now its completely random. Fine for silly hats, not fine for expanding arsenal. I'd really like to know who at valve thinks that putting MMO elements into the FPS is a good idea so I can TP their house. Then set it on fire.
X_StickmanNot good enough for a custom title.Join Date: 2003-04-15Member: 15533Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1707447:date=May 22 2009, 10:38 PM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lolfighter @ May 22 2009, 10:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1707447"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I told you you'd probably be alright, didn't I? Yes, yes I did.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I made most of it up.
As for skulkbait's general response...
I never really got all this hate towards achievements or unlocks. None of them really screw up the game in any significant way. If you don't like them, don't try to get them. Now you don't even need to try and get them.
The game is the same as it has always been, just with some extra stuff thrown in. It doesn't change the fundamental game mechanic. Uninstalling the game isn't really showing Valve what you think; this is free content. They already have the only money you'll ever hand over for the game. The only person uninstalling the game is hurting is you.
MonkfishSonic-boom-inducing buttcheeks of terrifying speed!Join Date: 2003-06-03Member: 16972Members
edited May 2009
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->* When we were tuning this system we first looked at the average amount of time that players spend playing TF2 daily. From there, we set the goal of most players having around 20 items in their inventory after a couple of weeks of play. If you're someone who plays a lot of TF2, you're going to get items a lot faster than that. In the first few hours after the release yesterday, we had some issues that prevented the system from working properly, so that timeframe was not indicative of the system as it's designed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks for addresing absolutely 0 of the players concerns valve, good job on adding an EVEN LONGER GRIND to unlocking new weapons (and ones we already have for item trading) .Working on that at the same time as the next class pack. Gee that's going to take like a couple of days to fix such blatant and rage inducing bugs right?
Taunt-kill while cloaked: Confirmed. It's still difficult to catch a moving target, but now you get to try again if the first one misses. I haven't personally confirmed that you can do it to buildings too, but I've seen the kill-message.
MonkfishSonic-boom-inducing buttcheeks of terrifying speed!Join Date: 2003-06-03Member: 16972Members
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->May 22, 2009 - Team Fortress 2 Update Released
Fixed Ambassador not using hitboxes to trace against players. It now works like all other bullet-firing weapons in the game
Fixed Ambassador shooting through gates
Fixed Ambassador not critting during the round win period
Fixed control point not being named correctly on Arena Sawmill
Fixed cloaked Spies being able to taunt attack
Fixed Spy feign death not being reflected in scoreboard
Fixed Jarate effect on DX8 machines
Fixed rare crash in Spy "A Cut Above" achievement
Fixed the backpack icon appearing over the "Could not connect to Steam" message in the client inventory
Fixed German localization string for respawning players showing %1<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh sweet, fixes to weapons I can't use, have a random chance of dropping in a 2 week period (specified by valve being the length of time that everyone should get all the unlocks + duplicates) for a trading system that will not be in until just before/when the next class update hits. All this and a ###### vague cop out blog post.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1707458:date=May 23 2009, 02:14 AM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lolfighter @ May 23 2009, 02:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1707458"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Taunt-kill while cloaked: Confirmed. It's still difficult to catch a moving target, but now you get to try again if the first one misses. I haven't personally confirmed that you can do it to buildings too, but I've seen the kill-message.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> And to make it work you have to have a melee taunt selected that does a kill taunt?
"Trading is necessary!" "Why?" "Because you might not get the stuff you want, but you can trade duplicates of stuff you already have!" "Wouldn't it be better to simply ensure that people get stuff they don't already have instead of duplicates? That way they don't have to trade for stuff, with all the associate issues." "But then we wouldn't have an excuse to implement trading."
It's like they have this compulsion that trading MUST be a feature, and they'll create absurd mechanics to justify it.
<!--quoteo(post=1707461:date=May 23 2009, 02:29 AM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ May 23 2009, 02:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1707461"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And to make it work you have to have a melee taunt selected that does a kill taunt?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, that would be the knife. He does that stabbing motion. But it's too late now!
X_StickmanNot good enough for a custom title.Join Date: 2003-04-15Member: 15533Members, Constellation
To be honest, they seem to have gotten it the wrong way round.
Right now there's a random chance to get any weapon at any time (so it seems). So on average, given say a month of regular play, almost all players are going to have all unlocks.
The next major update, which will include the trading system (apparently) will most likely come out in what, 2-3 months? More? By the time the trading system comes out, everyone who plays the game will have every unlock. Surely it would have made more sense to implement the trading system *now*, and the implement the randomised unlock system later, or both at the same time.
Unless, of course, they're going to start introducing small varients of guns. Like a natascha that has +1 damage against scouts or something.
Which is something even I would get annoyed at. And I'm a fairly easy going guy.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I never really got all this hate towards achievements or unlocks. None of them really screw up the game in any significant way. If you don't like them, don't try to get them. Now you don't even need to try and get them. ... They already have the only money you'll ever hand over for the game. The only person uninstalling the game is hurting is you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't have any problem with achievements. I don't have any problem with the new weapons. I had a problem with the two being tied together. And I did ignore them after I eventually reinstalled the game. But now that they're using some randomized system and, apparently, some kind of trading system, it's quite clear that they want to take the game in a direction than I won't enjoy. If I wanted to play MMOs and deal with grind and trading and customizable characters I'd have bought a ###### MMO. So thats why I uninstalled it, not because valve will pay any attention (this update makes that pretty obvious) but because now I won't have to waste drivespace and free time on it.
I find this to be an amusing insight into Valve's inability to think things through:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They aren't guaranteed to get the item at those points, but they have a pretty good chance. We based the system on granting items on the amount of time played because we don't want players to have to do weird things like join achievement grinding servers to get new content.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No, see, now their going to join normal servers (later specially made farming servers), and leave it sit for days, weeks, or whatever it takes. I imagine that some players will even leave it on whenever they aren't playing normally (or playing another game) to have a better chance of getting some rares or at least a bunch of trading loot.
X_StickmanNot good enough for a custom title.Join Date: 2003-04-15Member: 15533Members, Constellation
But it's the same game. The only difference is it is now even easier to ignore the unlocks and achievements. When the trade system is put in place, it won't make any difference at all to the gameplay, and will also be easy to ignore.
Like I said, the core game is the same as it has always been. The new stuff is only for people who want to use it. To the people who don't want to use it, the game remains unchanged.
The core game is not the same as it was when it was released. And I don't mean just because there is new ###### and a bunch of tweaks, I mean because the game now includes a system where I, as a player, do not have all the tactical options another player has because I haven't been around long enough, haven't been lucky, or don't have enough loot to trade. So now its not just "gee, I need to learn to snipe better", its "gee, I need to (get lucky, play longer, trade) so I can get that weapon and <i>then</i> learn to use it". Valve has indicated that they will continue to make the game more MMO like, so I'm getting out now before it gets even worse.
Luckily I never play Spy or Sniper so I don't have that issue! And since the weapons aren't linked to unlocks anymore the servers aren't full of a bunch of anti-Heavy classes which makes me happy.
Yeah, instead of getting backstabbed by spies and shot in the head by snipers, you only have to contend with getting airblasted all over the place by pyros and getting stunned or knocked back by scouts! Hooray!
I've pretty much lost all desire to play heavy. The very lackluster weapons his update included didn't help either.
<!--quoteo(post=1707459:date=May 23 2009, 10:18 AM:name=Sonic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sonic @ May 23 2009, 10:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1707459"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh sweet, fixes to weapons I can't use, have a random chance of dropping in a 2 week period (specified by valve being the length of time that everyone should get all the unlocks + duplicates) for a trading system that will not be in until just before/when the next class update hits. All this and a ###### vague cop out blog post.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NeonSpyder"Das est NTLDR?"Join Date: 2003-07-03Member: 17913Members
I'm still of the minority of people who liked the achievements being related to the unlocks, though I would have preferred it if they had made the achievements maybe 50%-75% of the difficulty to acquire that they were (specifically the medic ones)
Having a good amount of relatively easy-to-acquire achievements which award the unlocks within one, two or three weeks worth of average play.
I detest this new randomized system for unlocks, it doesn't feel like an award or an accomplishment anymore, just stupid luck or bad luck sometimes.
I think I'll be the first one to say I prefer this new system - in theory, at least. I don't feel like I have to modify my playstyle in order to try to get the unlocks - I can just play normally and hope I get lucky. I can't think of a single unlock in the game that is truly 'required' to place you on even competitive footing with everyone else, so I don't feel it's super urgent that I get the new unlox right now. I guess it's frustrating when someone else gets lucky with their dice roll and you don't, but at least I can play the game normally again...
The two unlocks I find to be absolutely essential are Blutsauger and Übersaw. Both will help you build übercharges faster, the former by keeping you alive longer, the latter by getting you extra charge. I can't recall the last time I saw a Medic with the regular syringe gun or bonesaw, and this is why.
Maybe the Axtinguisher. It's not exactly essential, but it isn't pointless, which the regular axe is. I mean, why would you bother with your melee weapon if it doesn't do a guaranteed crit? You've got a flamethrower. Why would you want to use a melee weapon that is merely on par with what everyone else has?
<!--QuoteBegin-"HURR DURR"+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ("HURR DURR")</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Medic Update: Hmm... Well, achievements seem like a good unlock idea? Audience: It's too hard! Pyro Update: Alright, we'll lower the requirements a bit... Audience: Too obtuse achievements! Heavy Update: Ok, uhm... This might work? Audience: Why even bother giving us achievements in the first place? Scout Update: Ok, these are pretty easy, and you only need to get 20... Audience: Well, this kind of works, but still not perfect. Sniper/Spy Update: OK I'VE GOT AN IDEA ON HOW TO FIX IT. WE MAKE YOU TAKE MORE TIME, PER UNLOCK, THEN IT TOOK TO GET YOU ALL THE UNLOCKS IN THE SCOUT UPDATE EVEN WITHOUT GRINDING, AND WE LEAVE IT ENTIRELY UP TO CHANCE. YOU HAVE NO SAY IN THE MATTER. Audience: This is retarded. VALVe: YOU JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND THE DEPTH OF OUR GENIUS.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1707473:date=May 22 2009, 09:25 PM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lolfighter @ May 22 2009, 09:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1707473"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah, instead of getting backstabbed by spies and shot in the head by snipers, you only have to contend with getting airblasted all over the place by pyros and getting stunned or knocked back by scouts! Hooray!
I've pretty much lost all desire to play heavy. The very lackluster weapons his update included didn't help either.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Uh, getting airblasted by pyros is fantastic. It puts you out of range of their weapon and lets you kill them. As for the Scout stun, that does indeed suck, but at least on the servers I play on few people use it and even then it's not the worst thing in the world. Barely anyone uses Force-a-nature and if they do, once again, it just pushes you out of range of their weapon.
If a pyro uses airblast to knock you away from them while you're in combat, he's a retard. Airblast is for knocking projectiles away, along with ubered medics, and other classes off edges.
<!--quoteo(post=1707493:date=May 23 2009, 03:17 PM:name=Scythe)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Scythe @ May 23 2009, 03:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1707493"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If a pyro uses airblast to knock you away from them while you're in combat, he's a retard. Airblast is for knocking projectiles away, along with ubered medics, and other classes off edges.
--Scythe--<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's also for pushing other pyros away so you can shotgun them while they fumble with their weapon switch keys only to discover that they brought a flaregun to a fight against a guy who is fireproof and has a shotgun. Oh no!
If they airblast me when I'm a Pyro with the flaregun (which I always am) I just take it as a sign that the fight was not meant to be and run off to find something else to do.
Can you airblast an arrow from the Huntsman? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
I'm really dissapointed in the Force-A-Nature. I shot a Sniper twice from behind at a zero distance and he didn't even die. I wonder how I'm supposed to get kills from behind (the achievement) if I can't even kill someone by surprise.
Comments
Being able to find the same weapon repeatedly in particular seems like a bug. If there's no limit to how many times you can "find" the same weapon, and each weapon selection is random, then it's theoretically possible to just keep finding the same weapon every hour for a whole year. That seems like the kind of thing that even the dumbest member of the design team would pick up on as soon as it was mentioned.
So yeah, I'm gonna assume that most of the complaints are due to bugs and glitches that will be sorted out over the next week at the most. Valve are pretty good with community feedback and playtesting in general, I have faith in them.
That said, I haven't actually played the new unlock (although I have been following it's reception) yet. Had my final exam today so I was revising all thursday night, and then had my exam and was out celebrating all friday. Woot.
I told you you'd probably be alright, didn't I? Yes, yes I did.
"Make a player uninstall the game."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They already have it from when this whole mess started back with the medic update.
Insta-kill taunt while cloaked? Retarded. In fact, you know what? Insta-kill taunts are just retarded in general.
One step forward and two steps back is the right description of this unlock system. Sure, no more mandatory achievement farming, but now its completely random. Fine for silly hats, not fine for expanding arsenal. I'd really like to know who at valve thinks that putting MMO elements into the FPS is a good idea so I can TP their house. Then set it on fire.
I made most of it up.
As for skulkbait's general response...
I never really got all this hate towards achievements or unlocks. None of them really screw up the game in any significant way. If you don't like them, don't try to get them. Now you don't even need to try and get them.
The game is the same as it has always been, just with some extra stuff thrown in. It doesn't change the fundamental game mechanic. Uninstalling the game isn't really showing Valve what you think; this is free content. They already have the only money you'll ever hand over for the game. The only person uninstalling the game is hurting is you.
Thanks for addresing absolutely 0 of the players concerns valve, good job on adding an EVEN LONGER GRIND to unlocking new weapons (and ones we already have for item trading) .Working on that at the same time as the next class pack. Gee that's going to take like a couple of days to fix such blatant and rage inducing bugs right?
<a href="http://www.teamfortress.com/post.php?id=2535" target="_blank">http://www.teamfortress.com/post.php?id=2535</a>
HAHAHAHAOHOH HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA WE GOT OWNED
Fixed Ambassador not using hitboxes to trace against players. It now works like all other bullet-firing weapons in the game
Fixed Ambassador shooting through gates
Fixed Ambassador not critting during the round win period
Fixed control point not being named correctly on Arena Sawmill
Fixed cloaked Spies being able to taunt attack
Fixed Spy feign death not being reflected in scoreboard
Fixed Jarate effect on DX8 machines
Fixed rare crash in Spy "A Cut Above" achievement
Fixed the backpack icon appearing over the "Could not connect to Steam" message in the client inventory
Fixed German localization string for respawning players showing %1<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh sweet, fixes to weapons I can't use, have a random chance of dropping in a 2 week period (specified by valve being the length of time that everyone should get all the unlocks + duplicates) for a trading system that will not be in until just before/when the next class update hits. All this and a ###### vague cop out blog post.
And to make it work you have to have a melee taunt selected that does a kill taunt?
"Trading is necessary!"
"Why?"
"Because you might not get the stuff you want, but you can trade duplicates of stuff you already have!"
"Wouldn't it be better to simply ensure that people get stuff they don't already have instead of duplicates? That way they don't have to trade for stuff, with all the associate issues."
"But then we wouldn't have an excuse to implement trading."
It's like they have this compulsion that trading MUST be a feature, and they'll create absurd mechanics to justify it.
Yes, that would be the knife. He does that stabbing motion. But it's too late now!
Right now there's a random chance to get any weapon at any time (so it seems). So on average, given say a month of regular play, almost all players are going to have all unlocks.
The next major update, which will include the trading system (apparently) will most likely come out in what, 2-3 months? More? By the time the trading system comes out, everyone who plays the game will have every unlock. Surely it would have made more sense to implement the trading system *now*, and the implement the randomised unlock system later, or both at the same time.
Unless, of course, they're going to start introducing small varients of guns. Like a natascha that has +1 damage against scouts or something.
Which is something even I would get annoyed at. And I'm a fairly easy going guy.
I don't have any problem with achievements. I don't have any problem with the new weapons. I had a problem with the two being tied together. And I did ignore them after I eventually reinstalled the game. But now that they're using some randomized system and, apparently, some kind of trading system, it's quite clear that they want to take the game in a direction than I won't enjoy. If I wanted to play MMOs and deal with grind and trading and customizable characters I'd have bought a ###### MMO. So thats why I uninstalled it, not because valve will pay any attention (this update makes that pretty obvious) but because now I won't have to waste drivespace and free time on it.
I find this to be an amusing insight into Valve's inability to think things through:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They aren't guaranteed to get the item at those points, but they have a pretty good chance. We based the system on granting items on the amount of time played because we don't want players to have to do weird things like join achievement grinding servers to get new content.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, see, now their going to join normal servers (later specially made farming servers), and leave it sit for days, weeks, or whatever it takes. I imagine that some players will even leave it on whenever they aren't playing normally (or playing another game) to have a better chance of getting some rares or at least a bunch of trading loot.
Like I said, the core game is the same as it has always been. The new stuff is only for people who want to use it. To the people who don't want to use it, the game remains unchanged.
I've pretty much lost all desire to play heavy. The very lackluster weapons his update included didn't help either.
Seriously? Rage less. Starting now.
--Scythe--
Having a good amount of relatively easy-to-acquire achievements which award the unlocks within one, two or three weeks worth of average play.
I detest this new randomized system for unlocks, it doesn't feel like an award or an accomplishment anymore, just stupid luck or bad luck sometimes.
Maybe the Axtinguisher. It's not exactly essential, but it isn't pointless, which the regular axe is. I mean, why would you bother with your melee weapon if it doesn't do a guaranteed crit? You've got a flamethrower. Why would you want to use a melee weapon that is merely on par with what everyone else has?
Audience: It's too hard!
Pyro Update: Alright, we'll lower the requirements a bit...
Audience: Too obtuse achievements!
Heavy Update: Ok, uhm... This might work?
Audience: Why even bother giving us achievements in the first place?
Scout Update: Ok, these are pretty easy, and you only need to get 20...
Audience: Well, this kind of works, but still not perfect.
Sniper/Spy Update: OK I'VE GOT AN IDEA ON HOW TO FIX IT. WE MAKE YOU TAKE MORE TIME, PER UNLOCK, THEN IT TOOK TO GET YOU ALL THE UNLOCKS IN THE SCOUT UPDATE EVEN WITHOUT GRINDING, AND WE LEAVE IT ENTIRELY UP TO CHANCE. YOU HAVE NO SAY IN THE MATTER.
Audience: This is retarded.
VALVe: YOU JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND THE DEPTH OF OUR GENIUS.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've pretty much lost all desire to play heavy. The very lackluster weapons his update included didn't help either.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Uh, getting airblasted by pyros is fantastic. It puts you out of range of their weapon and lets you kill them. As for the Scout stun, that does indeed suck, but at least on the servers I play on few people use it and even then it's not the worst thing in the world. Barely anyone uses Force-a-nature and if they do, once again, it just pushes you out of range of their weapon.
--Scythe--
--Scythe--<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your mother.
--Scythe--<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's also for pushing other pyros away so you can shotgun them while they fumble with their weapon switch keys only to discover that they brought a flaregun to a fight against a guy who is fireproof and has a shotgun. Oh no!
Also you can airblast back flares which is fun, and *amazing* when you get a lucky kill from a reflected flare.
I'm really dissapointed in the Force-A-Nature. I shot a Sniper twice from behind at a zero distance and he didn't even die. I wonder how I'm supposed to get kills from behind (the achievement) if I can't even kill someone by surprise.