<!--quoteo(post=1802028:date=Oct 19 2010, 01:39 PM:name=culprit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (culprit @ Oct 19 2010, 01:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1802028"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It sounds like you guys want them to have more progress communication than what the tracker provides. That is understandable. It is just unfeasible. If they had the resources ($$$), they could hire someone to hang in the office and do blog posts on what is being worked on every few days. I know I would love to have this kind of info (or that job). But I don't think that would be beneficial to UWE as a company. The value of moderately better community communication is not worth redirecting resources from development.
TLDR- If you want the next patch sooner, complaining about the utility of the tracker just seems silly and counter-productive.
EDIT: basically Triggerman already said it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That would be an interesting idea, i.e. a weekly informal blog to serve as a sort of journal of their weeks effort. Obviously this is not the same as the "reveal" updates because it wouldn't be pertaining to the game as heavily. Actually each developer should have their own blog for this sort of thing.
<!--quoteo(post=1802037:date=Oct 19 2010, 07:24 PM:name=cmc5788)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cmc5788 @ Oct 19 2010, 07:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1802037"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think people are upset because they said they would deliver regular patches, then arbitrarily stopped communicating entirely about patch release states for several months and the Pivotal Tracker's bars have been pretty much all we have to go on.
Obviously it's an alpha and it's perfectly fine for things to take longer than expected, but lack of communication doesn't make anyone feel better about it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As da man said below, I think we all expected a patch to arrive imminently after the fundamental network issues were resolved (or at least vanish from Pivotal).
<!--quoteo(post=1799624:date=Sep 23 2010, 09:04 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Sep 23 2010, 09:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1799624"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The only thing holding up the release of the patch is the networking lag issues. That's all. We would have put out a patch a while back, but until that issue is fixed, or at least improved a fair amount, there is no point releasing a patch that no one is going to play.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can understand why people are scratching their heads a bit. I wouldn't get upset though. We've waited this long. Just play something else.
Bloodhouse: As far as I've understood things the networking stuff has already been fixed to satisfactory levels and Max is currently working on some other tasks to optimize frames per second before releasing the patch.
<!--quoteo(post=1802045:date=Oct 19 2010, 04:51 PM:name=minim)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (minim @ Oct 19 2010, 04:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1802045"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bloodhouse: As far as I've understood things the networking stuff has already been fixed to satisfactory levels and Max is currently working on some other tasks to optimize frames per second before releasing the patch.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The way I understand it, they've been having a hard time finding a good "stopping point" because their planned release schedule is so shot to hell. That's understandable.
As far as I'm concerned they should take as long as they need, my only gripe is that they have a consistent track record of a) missing deadlines and b) being completely silent about the missed deadline for long periods of time afterwards. Those two things combined don't make a community happy. That's okay, though, because the community's happiness is entirely tertiary to the goal of getting things up and running as effectively and efficiently as possible.
<!--quoteo(post=1802043:date=Oct 19 2010, 04:18 PM:name=FocusedWolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FocusedWolf @ Oct 19 2010, 04:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1802043"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That would be an interesting idea, i.e. a weekly informal blog to serve as a sort of journal of their weeks effort. Obviously this is not the same as the "reveal" updates because it wouldn't be pertaining to the game as heavily. Actually each developer should have their own blog for this sort of thing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<FACEPALM>
I said it would have to be someone else besides the devs to do this. If the devs are writing blog posts they aren't working on NS2 or next patch. Hiring someone would be moving a portion of $$$ from development to this community liaison job. It's way too early to be spending any resources on something like this.
At this point, we pre-order people are basically acting as a sponsor/patron for an artist. If you are sponsoring an artist so they can have the ability to do great work, dragging them to parties to talk about their work in front of your social peers is really counter-productive. It makes them lose focus, wastes time and adds pressure.
UWE is still a business. It's just that pre-ordering from an indie dev is more like a patronage situation than like boxed copies of some EA title at some retailer.
<!--quoteo(post=1802050:date=Oct 19 2010, 11:49 PM:name=Cerebral)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cerebral @ Oct 19 2010, 11:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1802050"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You guys act really entitled. They don't owe us anything except a completed game at some point in the future. Calm down and find something else to do.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Technically they do. Not that I'm complaining just pointing that out.
We realize that it is frustrating not only having to wait for the patch but also not knowing the reasons why its being held up.
However, there is only so much we can keep talking about. Yes, we are continuing to work on optimizations to get the game running faster. There are always unexpected issues that arise, as well as fixes we think are going to make a big difference, but actually end up not improving things as much as we'd like. Yes, the network lag issues were the main focus at first. But then, even with a big improvement in that area, the framerate was still proving to be a game killer. So, we are trying out lots of different solutions, and some make minor improvements, some make much bigger improvements. There are many more optimizations planned after the patch, we just want to make sure that we have enough of an improvement that people will continue to play the game.
On top of that, since progress on the game has continued full steam while the technical issues have been worked on, then it means there is a lot of new and in development stuff that needs to be cleaned up before releasing a patch. The nature of adding lots of content to a game is that a lot of things that had been working tend to break, and need to get fixed again. We don't want to put out a patch that ends up breaking a lot of things that had been working previously. And that means proper testing and taking the time to make the fixes. Additionally, the process of getting all of it pulled together and released is a significant time undertaking.
Internally we have also discussed ways to speed up the patching process from here on, so that we can easily release little fixes here and there, rather then waiting longer to release bigger patches.
<!--quoteo(post=1802054:date=Oct 19 2010, 06:11 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Oct 19 2010, 06:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1802054"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We realize that it is frustrating not only having to wait for the patch but also not knowing the reasons why its being held up.
However, there is only so much we can keep talking about. Yes, we are continuing to work on optimizations to get the game running faster. There are always unexpected issues that arise, as well as fixes we think are going to make a big difference, but actually end up not improving things as much as we'd like. Yes, the network lag issues were the main focus at first. But then, even with a big improvement in that area, the framerate was still proving to be a game killer. So, we are trying out lots of different solutions, and some make minor improvements, some make much bigger improvements. There are many more optimizations planned after the patch, we just want to make sure that we have enough of an improvement that people will continue to play the game.
On top of that, since progress on the game has continued full steam while the technical issues have been worked on, then it means there is a lot of new and in development stuff that needs to be cleaned up before releasing a patch. The nature of adding lots of content to a game is that a lot of things that had been working tend to break, and need to get fixed again. We don't want to put out a patch that ends up breaking a lot of things that had been working previously. And that means proper testing and taking the time to make the fixes. Additionally, the process of getting all of it pulled together and released is a significant time undertaking.
Internally we have also discussed ways to speed up the patching process from here on, so that we can easily release little fixes here and there, rather then waiting longer to release bigger patches.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks, Cory. It's always nice to hear candidly from a member of the team about how things have been going. Just want to emphasize that I continue to be thoroughly impressed by everyone's work on NS2. Keep up he good work :)
Might as well just make an Uber patch for the MORNING of Halloween, so we can get servers up for the evening and download the client. Would be a good advertisement/PR thing too.
<!--quoteo(post=1802054:date=Oct 20 2010, 12:11 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Oct 20 2010, 12:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1802054"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We realize that it is frustrating not only having to wait for the patch but also not knowing the reasons why its being held up.
However, there is only so much we can keep talking about. Yes, we are continuing to work on optimizations to get the game running faster. There are always unexpected issues that arise, as well as fixes we think are going to make a big difference, but actually end up not improving things as much as we'd like. Yes, the network lag issues were the main focus at first. But then, even with a big improvement in that area, the framerate was still proving to be a game killer. So, we are trying out lots of different solutions, and some make minor improvements, some make much bigger improvements. There are many more optimizations planned after the patch, we just want to make sure that we have enough of an improvement that people will continue to play the game.
On top of that, since progress on the game has continued full steam while the technical issues have been worked on, then it means there is a lot of new and in development stuff that needs to be cleaned up before releasing a patch. The nature of adding lots of content to a game is that a lot of things that had been working tend to break, and need to get fixed again. We don't want to put out a patch that ends up breaking a lot of things that had been working previously. And that means proper testing and taking the time to make the fixes. Additionally, the process of getting all of it pulled together and released is a significant time undertaking.
Internally we have also discussed ways to speed up the patching process from here on, so that we can easily release little fixes here and there, rather then waiting longer to release bigger patches.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks for the response. It is much appreciated to get some feedback and communication back to the community. For the last few months I was thinking to my self... Why did I pay for the Alpha when we were promised weekly updates and there hasn't been an update for months... "This wasn't the only reason why I paid $40 USD instead of $20."
I really hope you guys sort out the fundamental issues now rather than worrying about some new structures / abilities to be added into the game. By fundamental I am talking about the engine. The textures and the way they are loaded when moving from room to room. In short optimization. The other is the fps and server lag "net code".
<!--quoteo(post=1802069:date=Oct 19 2010, 11:34 PM:name=Sydero)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sydero @ Oct 19 2010, 11:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1802069"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We're alpha players... not CTP players or beta players... I expect more frequent releases.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Technically you bought into alpha access. The team has its own internal testers who get the content before we do.
The problem seems to be that there's just too much overhead in releasing updates, and the costs of doing so outweigh the benefits of a larger-scale testing base.
the ONLY reason i payed $40 for SE was because i was so grateful for the free NS1, everything else that happens is just a bonus :)
so for all you complaining and demanding, maybe this is a better philosophy to live by... ...you enjoyed countless hours of a commercial-grade game for free
Evil_bOb1Join Date: 2002-07-13Member: 938Members, Squad Five Blue
HAHAHAHA! GO UWE GO UWE!!
Do what you have to do guys there is no other way.
I've been restraining on saying for a long time but it has to go now. You people that complain about things not going fast enough really need to get a life. You just don't understand how much one can do in a week or even in a month. I know everyone thinks that his burden is the heaviest and that life is hard and things frustrate you but that is not the way to go, its only you not others.
Leave UWE do their thing, big em up for their passion, and you, go find something to do!
and another friday flies by without a patch... Zzz...
why choose the steam system as a delivery method if the patches are so ridiculously difficult to get out?
also, i hope UWE are doing some 'playtesting' with a read NS2 server hosted remotely (in a datacetner) and a decent amount of players (eg. 32). we've already seen what play testing over a Lan on the same hardware with 1-4 people does to a alpha launch...
Comments
TLDR- If you want the next patch sooner, complaining about the utility of the tracker just seems silly and counter-productive.
EDIT: basically Triggerman already said it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That would be an interesting idea, i.e. a weekly informal blog to serve as a sort of journal of their weeks effort. Obviously this is not the same as the "reveal" updates because it wouldn't be pertaining to the game as heavily. Actually each developer should have their own blog for this sort of thing.
Obviously it's an alpha and it's perfectly fine for things to take longer than expected, but lack of communication doesn't make anyone feel better about it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As da man said below, I think we all expected a patch to arrive imminently after the fundamental network issues were resolved (or at least vanish from Pivotal).
<!--quoteo(post=1799624:date=Sep 23 2010, 09:04 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Sep 23 2010, 09:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1799624"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The only thing holding up the release of the patch is the networking lag issues. That's all. We would have put out a patch a while back, but until that issue is fixed, or at least improved a fair amount, there is no point releasing a patch that no one is going to play.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can understand why people are scratching their heads a bit.
I wouldn't get upset though. We've waited this long. Just play something else.
The way I understand it, they've been having a hard time finding a good "stopping point" because their planned release schedule is so shot to hell. That's understandable.
As far as I'm concerned they should take as long as they need, my only gripe is that they have a consistent track record of a) missing deadlines and b) being completely silent about the missed deadline for long periods of time afterwards. Those two things combined don't make a community happy. That's okay, though, because the community's happiness is entirely tertiary to the goal of getting things up and running as effectively and efficiently as possible.
<FACEPALM>
I said it would have to be someone else besides the devs to do this. If the devs are writing blog posts they aren't working on NS2 or next patch. Hiring someone would be moving a portion of $$$ from development to this community liaison job. It's way too early to be spending any resources on something like this.
At this point, we pre-order people are basically acting as a sponsor/patron for an artist. If you are sponsoring an artist so they can have the ability to do great work, dragging them to parties to talk about their work in front of your social peers is really counter-productive. It makes them lose focus, wastes time and adds pressure.
UWE is still a business. It's just that pre-ordering from an indie dev is more like a patronage situation than like boxed copies of some EA title at some retailer.
Technically they do. Not that I'm complaining just pointing that out.
However, there is only so much we can keep talking about. Yes, we are continuing to work on optimizations to get the game running faster. There are always unexpected issues that arise, as well as fixes we think are going to make a big difference, but actually end up not improving things as much as we'd like. Yes, the network lag issues were the main focus at first. But then, even with a big improvement in that area, the framerate was still proving to be a game killer. So, we are trying out lots of different solutions, and some make minor improvements, some make much bigger improvements. There are many more optimizations planned after the patch, we just want to make sure that we have enough of an improvement that people will continue to play the game.
On top of that, since progress on the game has continued full steam while the technical issues have been worked on, then it means there is a lot of new and in development stuff that needs to be cleaned up before releasing a patch. The nature of adding lots of content to a game is that a lot of things that had been working tend to break, and need to get fixed again. We don't want to put out a patch that ends up breaking a lot of things that had been working previously. And that means proper testing and taking the time to make the fixes. Additionally, the process of getting all of it pulled together and released is a significant time undertaking.
Internally we have also discussed ways to speed up the patching process from here on, so that we can easily release little fixes here and there, rather then waiting longer to release bigger patches.
--Cory
However, there is only so much we can keep talking about. Yes, we are continuing to work on optimizations to get the game running faster. There are always unexpected issues that arise, as well as fixes we think are going to make a big difference, but actually end up not improving things as much as we'd like. Yes, the network lag issues were the main focus at first. But then, even with a big improvement in that area, the framerate was still proving to be a game killer. So, we are trying out lots of different solutions, and some make minor improvements, some make much bigger improvements. There are many more optimizations planned after the patch, we just want to make sure that we have enough of an improvement that people will continue to play the game.
On top of that, since progress on the game has continued full steam while the technical issues have been worked on, then it means there is a lot of new and in development stuff that needs to be cleaned up before releasing a patch. The nature of adding lots of content to a game is that a lot of things that had been working tend to break, and need to get fixed again. We don't want to put out a patch that ends up breaking a lot of things that had been working previously. And that means proper testing and taking the time to make the fixes. Additionally, the process of getting all of it pulled together and released is a significant time undertaking.
Internally we have also discussed ways to speed up the patching process from here on, so that we can easily release little fixes here and there, rather then waiting longer to release bigger patches.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks, Cory. It's always nice to hear candidly from a member of the team about how things have been going. Just want to emphasize that I continue to be thoroughly impressed by everyone's work on NS2. Keep up he good work :)
However, there is only so much we can keep talking about. Yes, we are continuing to work on optimizations to get the game running faster. There are always unexpected issues that arise, as well as fixes we think are going to make a big difference, but actually end up not improving things as much as we'd like. Yes, the network lag issues were the main focus at first. But then, even with a big improvement in that area, the framerate was still proving to be a game killer. So, we are trying out lots of different solutions, and some make minor improvements, some make much bigger improvements. There are many more optimizations planned after the patch, we just want to make sure that we have enough of an improvement that people will continue to play the game.
On top of that, since progress on the game has continued full steam while the technical issues have been worked on, then it means there is a lot of new and in development stuff that needs to be cleaned up before releasing a patch. The nature of adding lots of content to a game is that a lot of things that had been working tend to break, and need to get fixed again. We don't want to put out a patch that ends up breaking a lot of things that had been working previously. And that means proper testing and taking the time to make the fixes. Additionally, the process of getting all of it pulled together and released is a significant time undertaking.
Internally we have also discussed ways to speed up the patching process from here on, so that we can easily release little fixes here and there, rather then waiting longer to release bigger patches.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks for the response. It is much appreciated to get some feedback and communication back to the community. For the last few months I was thinking to my self... Why did I pay for the Alpha when we were promised weekly updates and there hasn't been an update for months... "This wasn't the only reason why I paid $40 USD instead of $20."
I really hope you guys sort out the fundamental issues now rather than worrying about some new structures / abilities to be added into the game. By fundamental I am talking about the engine. The textures and the way they are loaded when moving from room to room. In short optimization. The other is the fps and server lag "net code".
Best regards,
ERASER a.k.a =C=
Technically you bought into alpha access. The team has its own internal testers who get the content before we do.
The problem seems to be that there's just too much overhead in releasing updates, and the costs of doing so outweigh the benefits of a larger-scale testing base.
It's Build 152 > ...... > Build 999 > Beta.
I think a lot of the crying will go away after the next patch finally happens and we'll get used to seeing a lot more frequent, smaller patches.
the ONLY reason i payed $40 for SE was because i was so grateful for the free NS1, everything else that happens is just a bonus :)
so for all you complaining and demanding, maybe this is a better philosophy to live by...
...you enjoyed countless hours of a commercial-grade game for free
Do what you have to do guys there is no other way.
I've been restraining on saying for a long time but it has to go now. You people that complain about things not going fast enough really need to get a life. You just don't understand how much one can do in a week or even in a month. I know everyone thinks that his burden is the heaviest and that life is hard and things frustrate you but that is not the way to go, its only you not others.
Leave UWE do their thing, big em up for their passion, and you, go find something to do!
Patches? We don't need no stinkin' patches! xD
Patches? We don't need no stinkin' patches! xD<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Where we're going, we don't need patches!
Ha, that should totally be the community comedy motto.
why choose the steam system as a delivery method if the patches are so ridiculously difficult to get out?
also, i hope UWE are doing some 'playtesting' with a read NS2 server hosted remotely (in a datacetner) and a decent amount of players (eg. 32). we've already seen what play testing over a Lan on the same hardware with 1-4 people does to a alpha launch...