<!--quoteo(post=1810011:date=Nov 24 2010, 05:23 PM:name=Darkomicron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Darkomicron @ Nov 24 2010, 05:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810011"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is actually the reason I made an account... To discuss this =)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
tying marine tech to expansion is for sure a diff, but it affects timing of upgrades more than anything. as you pointed out, in ns1 you needed to grab a hive location to deny the aliens anyway. of course in the current beta, marine expansion is a make or break event for both sides.
as for the alien comm. its *almost* like you have a cap on 'gorges' (or at least part of the old ns1 gorge function) based on the # of hives & you need to run back to a hive to morph into one. makes the ninja resource grabs in your scenario a little tougher.
i thought somebody suggested that an alien could sacrifice into being a drifter, which would allow an alien to get that part of the build equation into position easier.
No doubt, UWE has a lot of tuning & feature mods ahead.
in 6 month when beta will be almost complete with stable server and balance gameplay, you will all enjoy the game with a combat commander who drop replicate medpack ammo pack and other com who tech watch the base and place seentry.
you will love the alien push with alien commm who drop whip+crag, use umbra or action of the all 4 chamber. (event jsut the umbra is already so good and so fun)
multicomming is a firt one in history of video game like ns1 one was one of the first mixt rst/fps
the only thing i think must be absolute be implement in game its all secondary com cannot recycle cause it will be so much lame about people who get into second or third CC and recycle ervything.
i get 30 hour of game 30 hour of fun,.
i wait so much dynamic infestation for give to alien com is truly role
<!--quoteo(post=1810058:date=Nov 24 2010, 07:57 PM:name=banny)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (banny @ Nov 24 2010, 07:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810058"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the game is great, you just afraid of change.
in 6 month when beta will be almost complete with stable server and balance gameplay, you will all enjoy the game with a combat commander who drop replicate medpack ammo pack and other com who tech watch the base and place seentry.
you will love the alien push with alien commm who drop whip+crag, use umbra or action of the all 4 chamber. (event jsut the umbra is already so good and so fun)
multicomming is a firt one in history of video game like ns1 one was one of the first mixt rst/fps
the only thing i think must be absolute be implement in game its all secondary com cannot recycle cause it will be so much lame about people who get into second or third CC and recycle ervything.
i get 30 hour of game 30 hour of fun,.
i wait so much dynamic infestation for give to alien com is truly role<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
>he thinks that NS2 is the first game to have multiple comms
<!--quoteo(post=1809967:date=Nov 24 2010, 09:17 PM:name=PoNeH)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PoNeH @ Nov 24 2010, 09:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1809967"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Don't tell me that the alien comm idea was implemented merely due to balancing issues because that is a crock. You can easily tweak hitpoints, armor, res flow to balance a game... no matter how unique each team is. Most RTS games work this way.
As far as multiple commanders go, I guess there isn't any need to stop it since nobody really cares about the commander now anyways. He just builds his things independently while the team is doing their thing. Where is the teamwork?
One thing that I also dislike is that the comm doesn't drop the weapons, JPs, HAs, etc. anymore. I remember having to earn my shotty. That made me feel good and kept me coming back.
PS - Don't try to justify the need for these horrible new NS2 features with a specific scenario. I can write a freaking Bible with much more interesting NS1 scenarios. It doesn't prove anything...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this is a good point, and one i have found to be true. No one gives a rat's ass about the commander Everymarine just runs out into teh world rambo style wasting resources as he goes. The mac's move independantly and through the vents so marines cant even keep up with them. No one listens to the alien commander either, and half the time people are walking around as gorge saying, why cant i build structures etc....And when you explain it too them they all say, oh thats dumb what is the point of the gorge then and my response is, well, battlefield medic, but since NO ONE works in teams on either side whatsoever there is no need for a battlefield medic, especially since marine just one shot fades anyways, not much use healing something that dies in a millisecond.
A big problem here is that, marines have lost all teamwork, one random newb can come in the middle of a game, take all teh resources, get killed and leave. It's really dumb, the comm cant even choose who get's the precious resources.
Also, I've found playing as the comm, you can just take over the map by yourself in about 45second-1 minute, just make a bunch of mac's or drifters and bam, map control taken....Used to take 15-20 minutes to secure extra map locations, now it takes literally seconds and can be done by one person...You can start the game by dropping a hive/command center. I mean what the hell is that? it should be 5 minutes until anyone can afford anything....
This game is just another "Shooter" game as far as im concerned now, aliens vrs marines, from ns1 has been ruined, there is absolutely no teamwork or real time strategy whatsoever at this point. Even when peopel try to use mic's and work together it is useless with how powerful one person can be on marine side. In a 5-6 minute game, the entire marine side can load up on Flamethrowers, They are cheap, seems like everything for marines is cheap. What is the point of working together as a team If I can just go and get another flamethrwoer after I die and no one can stop me? Resources come too fast, withing 2-3 minutes aliens can have fades up and the whole team and go fade, die go fade again, die, go fade again, seems like resources are endless all the time. It should be, hey 7-8 minutes in, going first fade, I need some skulk and gorge back-up, but no, by that time everyone has already been fade 2-3 times....
It's nice to think, oh well NS2 players will be mature and the game will work istelf out, but no, gamers arent mature, and will use whatever advantage they can get. ie: try to play a game right now , 100% of rine using flamthrower and just laming up the games, making it not very fun to play whatsoever. a whole team of fades can't even stop 1 flamethrower or 1 grenade launcher.
The mechanics of the teamplay need to be worked on, "Rambo 3 Aliens on a spaceship", does no sound like a fun game, something MUST be done to encourage teamwork on both sides. At minimum comm must be allowed to restrict who gets which weapons,. otherwsie there will be nerdraging in 28 different countries/languages.
<b><u></u><!--sizeo:6--><span style="font-size:24pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->BEING ABLE TO DROP A HIVE/CC IN THE FIRST 5 SECONDS OF THE GAME IS A RETARDED IDEA<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b>Theres no way around it, If I can simply start the game, jump in the hive, and drop a second hive? what is the point of this, your telling me that as an alien commander, I am forced into doing monotonous tasks THE SAME WAY EVERYGAME FOR ALL GAMES, FOREVER EVERYTIME!!!!!! FFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU that is how that makes me feel, I don't want to do the same thing everygame. The was the whole point of the commander in ns1, to say, hey, this game we are shotgun rushing, or this game we are rushing double nodes, or this game we are taking a hive. NOW ALL HE CAN FREKIUN DO IS SAY, "Hey guys, were gonna do the exact same thing we have already tried 40,000 times, and do it in the same order we always do it, cause that is the only way we have a chance......The Amount of strategies that can be used by either team have just been widdled down too 1, expand to nearest hive, theres nothing stopping you and you dont need anyhelp to do it so wtf is even the point of the whole game I sometimes wonder...If it's so easy to make the second tech point, we mine as well just freakin start the game with the tech point already up what is the point of making someone go commander and drop the hive, that is stupid and monotonous. People will become so bored with commander mode no one will ever do it.
I'd have to say my biggest complaint is that, THERE ARE NO SPARE RESOURCE NODES, which really just throws out strategy from the game altogether. Cause now its all about tech points and getting resources/hives is very easy, instead of very difficult. I have never once yet played a game where My team did not have enough resources, even in death or about to lose the game, still 100's of resources for everyone to spend on crap.....The level of difficulty has plumeted through the floor What was a teamwork/strategy based game, plays more like a crappy version of Alien's vrs predator.<u></u>[size="6"]<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->[color="#FF0000"][/color]
The Alien Commander needs a rehaul, but that's all I agree with. The Alien Commander should be focused on strategy, research, and territory control, not building and maintaining things on the battlefield, for that is the Gorge's job.
<!--quoteo(post=1810089:date=Nov 25 2010, 12:57 AM:name=Raneman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Raneman @ Nov 25 2010, 12:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810089"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The Alien Commander needs a rehaul, but that's all I agree with. The Alien Commander should be focused on strategy, research, and territory control, not building and maintaining things on the battlefield, for that is the Gorge's job.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
agreed, gorges should have power over crag's and whips
check out my suggestion inspired by this thread: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=111628" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=111628</a>
@thecowsaysmoo yes, you are completely correct in what you say BUT 90% of your concerns are about balance. and balance will be dealt with as soon as the game works technically and almost all important features are in. what we have now is IN NO WAY a final product - more a proof of concept.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, I've found playing as the comm, you can just take over the map by yourself in about 45second-1 minute, just make a bunch of mac's or drifters and bam, map control taken....Used to take 15-20 minutes to secure extra map locations, now it takes literally seconds and can be done by one person...You can start the game by dropping a hive/command center. I mean what the hell is that? it should be 5 minutes until anyone can afford anything....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You do understand the current maps are for beta testing and there will be bigger maps in the release? Also I would expect all the upgrade timings, starting resources, resource cost and res gain to be adjusted when UWE gets to the point where they can focus on the balance instead of bugs and other problems.
<!--quoteo(post=1810085:date=Nov 24 2010, 07:51 PM:name=thecowsaysmoo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (thecowsaysmoo @ Nov 24 2010, 07:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810085"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->there is no need for a battlefield medic, especially since marine just one shot fades anyways, not much use healing something that dies in a millisecond.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Such things will get dealt with as we move out of 'features and bug fixes' and into 'balance'.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, I've found playing as the comm, you can just take over the map by yourself in about 45second-1 minute, just make a bunch of mac's or drifters and bam, map control taken....Used to take 15-20 minutes to secure extra map locations, now it takes literally seconds and can be done by one person...You can start the game by dropping a hive/command center. I mean what the hell is that? it should be 5 minutes until anyone can afford anything....
In a 5-6 minute game, the entire marine side can load up on Flamethrowers, They are cheap, seems like everything for marines is cheap. What is the point of working together as a team If I can just go and get another flamethrwoer after I die and no one can stop me? Resources come too fast, withing 2-3 minutes aliens can have fades up and the whole team and go fade, die go fade again, die, go fade again, seems like resources are endless all the time. It should be, hey 7-8 minutes in, going first fade, I need some skulk and gorge back-up, but no, by that time everyone has already been fade 2-3 times....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Have you considered the possibility that the resource system is intentionally high at the moment so that people can test all the functionality? This is a (very) early beta. Balance is barely on the table at the moment.
I've said it before, but I think alien commanders strip out a unique characteristic of this game. It's mostly a moot point now, as the dev team seems committed to the idea, but the new resource model would have been just fine with Gorges controlling it. I'll be encouraging the development of a mod that brings back some of the asymmetry that made NS so appealing.
<!--quoteo(post=1810127:date=Nov 25 2010, 03:03 AM:name=PseudoKnight)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PseudoKnight @ Nov 25 2010, 03:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810127"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've said it before, but I think alien commanders strip out a unique characteristic of this game. It's mostly a moot point now, as the dev team seems committed to the idea, but the new resource model would have been just fine with Gorges controlling it. I'll be encouraging the development of a mod that brings back some of the asymmetry that made NS so appealing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Given that I find alien commanding a very enjoyable experience, I'd rather you kept it in.
I generally hate playing aliens, but alien commanding is nice, you have freedom to place structures where they're needed to support your players, it's not as spammy as marine comm and the structures lend themselves to inventive placement, the whip should be placed to ambush, the crag placed to be covered by geometry, stuff like that is fun. It'll be even cooler when we can move whips, I totally want to see what I can do with that ability.
Marine commanding is also nicer with the multiple comms, For the most part it's nice to have someone else jump in and start doing stuff when you're busy elsewhere. There's a lot of room for micro especially with marines, so having someone else to help out is good.
I hate the idea of FPSRTS but the beta seems to really be doing it quite well. It still has the usual problem of not many people wanting to do it, but there's not much you can do about that.
If my memory is not corrupted, I recall back in time a discussion about alien commander, long before NS2 was an idea. The general feeling in that time was a go ahead with it. Lots of fun. And guess what, it is.
<!--quoteo(post=1809967:date=Nov 24 2010, 05:17 PM:name=PoNeH)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PoNeH @ Nov 24 2010, 05:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1809967"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Don't tell me that the alien comm idea was implemented merely due to balancing issues because that is a crock. You can easily tweak hitpoints, armor, res flow to balance a game... no matter how unique each team is. Most RTS games work this way.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> LOL. No, they don't. Only the terrible ones do, like Dawn of War (which is so badly balanced it's probably brought up in Digipen as an example of terrible game design).
And again, you obviously know nothing about how difficult balancing games is. Only Blizzard can pull ###### like that off. And Blizzard is merged with ###### Activision and has WoW and has a proven brand name and has 200 employees and has a five year development cycle and has done this before over years of patches on a retail game with millions of customers and <i>birthed mother ###### esports because their game was so well balanced</i>. That's a lot of things Unknown Worlds Entertainment and everyone else making an RTS doesn't have.
Just... no. Just no. You don't know anything, you don't know why you like NS1, you just mistakenly assign feelings of nostalgia to bad game design because you can't comprehend NS1's imperfection and imbalance and think everything NS1 related is completely awesome.
I also have a lot more examples. But you don't care because you don't even consider something other than the gospel of NS1's perfection. Once I say "NS1 was wrong..." you just tune me out and don't hear anything. I know realizing imperfection in something we love is tough. But it's life. Life isn't perfect. Nothing is perfect and there's always a dark lining to cherished memories. Realize this and get over it so you can starting making the next thing better instead of denying reality.
<!--quoteo(post=1810198:date=Nov 25 2010, 02:11 AM:name=yourbonesakin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yourbonesakin @ Nov 25 2010, 02:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810198"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->LOL. No, they don't. Only the terrible ones do, like Dawn of War (which is so badly balanced it's probably brought up in Digipen as an example of terrible game design).
And again, you obviously know nothing about how difficult balancing games is. Only Blizzard can pull ###### like that off. And Blizzard is merged with ###### Activision and has WoW and has a proven brand name and has 200 employees and has a five year development cycle and has done this before over years of patches on a retail game with millions of customers and <i>birthed mother ###### esports because their game was so well balanced</i>. That's a lot of things Unknown Worlds Entertainment and everyone else making an RTS doesn't have.
Just... no. Just no. You don't know anything, you don't know why you like NS1, you just mistakenly assign feelings of nostalgia to bad game design because you can't comprehend NS1's imperfection and imbalance and think everything NS1 related is completely awesome.
I also have a lot more examples. But you don't care because you don't even consider something other than the gospel of NS1's perfection. Once I say "NS1 was wrong..." you just tune me out and don't hear anything. I know realizing imperfection in something we love is tough. But it's life. Life isn't perfect. Nothing is perfect and there's always a dark lining to cherished memories. Realize this and get over it so you can starting making the next thing better instead of denying reality.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
are you speaking from the perspective of a competitive player? because the average gamer doesn't care about any of that stuff.
<!--quoteo(post=1810225:date=Nov 25 2010, 03:50 AM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Nov 25 2010, 03:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810225"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->are you speaking from the perspective of a competitive player? because the average gamer doesn't care about any of that stuff.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> About what stuff?
And no, I was never a "competitive" NS1 Player, never part of any clan, never had a scrimmage match. I just played the game on public servers with whoever (and still do). Maybe that makes me "average"?
<!--quoteo(post=1810225:date=Nov 25 2010, 07:50 AM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Nov 25 2010, 07:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810225"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->are you speaking from the perspective of a competitive player? because the average gamer doesn't care about any of that stuff.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bad game balance pretty much kills any game, because you can't play it if it's badly balanced. If one strategy is better than others then the game becomes immediately and incredibly boring, because it's the only one people use and the only one you can use to win.
'average gamers' don't care about a lot of things, and that's what makes them gamers and not developers, developers have to care about a lot of things because otherwise they games they make are terrible, and all the 'average gamers' don't play them.
The ignorance in this thread is astounding. <u><i><b> Protip: The game is not yet complete! There will be additional features, the functionality of which is yet to be revealed, to complement changes such as Alien Commanders, etc. NS2 is not NS1 plus Alien Commanders! It is NS1 plus/minus many different features! Current game balance is not indicative of final game balance!</b></i></u>
<!--quoteo(post=1809893:date=Nov 25 2010, 04:49 AM:name=GrapeVine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GrapeVine @ Nov 25 2010, 04:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1809893"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The change from NS1 is indeed huge and it's hard to tell how it's gonna play out with multiple commanders in the final release. Also Gorge does seem kind of less useful than the other lifeforms, because all his abilities can be done by the alien commander.
Need healing? drop a Crag. Need offense chambers? drop a Whip. Need ranged damage? go Lerk.
Dunno if they are going to implement Web to NS2 but nevertheless gorges are better off being skulks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Saying that Gorges are now useless because the Commander can drop Crags is like saying Medics in TF2 are useless because Engineers can drop Dispensers. Direct in-combat healing will always be useful, and Gorges can also strengthen any position with their cheap Hydras. Comms have to send out Drifters to drop those Whips, and remember that those Whips cost resources that could be used for upgrades, expansions, etc. Same for Crags.
The new Gorge I see as having a lot of similarities to the "Battle-Engie" style of play seen in TF2, and that's a playstyle that can be incredibly fun. His role has changed certainly, but not, I believe at least, for the worst.
<!--quoteo(post=1809967:date=Nov 25 2010, 05:17 AM:name=PoNeH)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PoNeH @ Nov 25 2010, 05:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1809967"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As far as multiple commanders go, I guess there isn't any need to stop it since nobody really cares about the commander now anyways. He just builds his things independently while the team is doing their thing. Where is the teamwork?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Voice chat works pretty well, so does text. Unless your playing with blind mutes you should get a reply, give it a try sometime, unless they just ignore and shout abuse. In that case, I think teamwork has left the server and you should change :)
Regarding the teamwork and commander's building placement. I've had commanders on both sides 'caring', forward crags and defensive whips for the players pushing into the base have saved many aliens from death and helped them advance.
I've also seen a fair share of commanders for the marines do this with an armory/ dropping health and ammo, and one or two well placed turrets. Heck, last night I had some guy who seemed to feel the need to alert us to every upgrade he was doing. It was rather touching. Also, if your commander is not doing this, then hope there's a free hive/comm to jump into
<!--quoteo(post=1809967:date=Nov 25 2010, 05:17 AM:name=PoNeH)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PoNeH @ Nov 25 2010, 05:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1809967"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One thing that I also dislike is that the comm doesn't drop the weapons, JPs, HAs, etc. anymore. I remember having to earn my shotty. That made me feel good and kept me coming back.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I actually like this idea, I'd rather much rather the comm work on dropping the armory/capping the res node and putting up a turret than dropping weapons, but hey, each to their own. Might be fixable with a mod post release if a coder or two cared enough.
hes totaly right ... this fits 110% to my opinion.
for me .. ns2 did not feels like natural selection should. I totaly dislike the new commanders role on both sides. Macs are ok but should be "optional".
another big point for me is the taken oportunity to build whereever u want as an Mariene commander. That makes every commander a bit uniqe and it is lost ... i see the moments comming where all comms just sit in and do "the standard play".
and whats about a Turret factory ?
Devs, i realy like the way u communicate with the community and the way u do ur work but im realy sorry that i have to say "This is NOT Natural Selection as we all know and love it :( "
<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#00FFFF--><span style="color:#00FFFF"><!--/coloro-->dedicated, well known player for over half a decade who participated in 2 organized competitive leagues, organized teams, and spent countless hours in public servers states his opinion and dissatisfaction on a game <i>he financed</i><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> <!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> <!--quoteo(post=1809875:date=Nov 24 2010, 01:08 PM:name=yourbonesakin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yourbonesakin @ Nov 24 2010, 01:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1809875"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You just sound like an obvious troll.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This might be my first or second post here on the NS2 forums (Profile says I registered in 2003), however, I've been steadily watching the NS2 forum for at least a year now, here goes:
This ENTIRE argument about not liking the NS2 changes compared to NS1 is EXACTLY like the argument the TFC players had for TF2. Guess what? TF2 is a HUGE success now. It is one of the most played FPS games out there now.
I will give you this though, the veteran TFC players, to this day, do not like the changes they made with TF2. There are very few TFC veteran players that switched to TF2 and play it consistently.
<b>This story goes to show you that, an NS sequel can be a huge success WITHOUT any input from veteran players of the prequel just like TF2 did.</b> (Granted the biggest difference is that TF2 had a lot more resources to pool from than NS2's small team, however, there wouldn't be that many people playing TF2 if most people thought it was bad.).
<b>(which brings up a secondary point).
Players opinions of NS2 who have NEVER played NS1 are a better indicator for NS2's success or failure.</b>
<!--quoteo(post=1811085:date=Nov 27 2010, 03:18 AM:name=aleph)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (aleph @ Nov 27 2010, 03:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1811085"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#00FFFF--><span style="color:#00FFFF"><!--/coloro-->dedicated, well known player for over half a decade who participated in 2 organized competitive leagues, organized teams, and spent countless hours in public servers states his opinion and dissatisfaction on a game <i>he financed</i><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> <!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He sounded like a troll because this topic has been discussed to death, and he didn't provide any worthwhile arguments in his first post other than saying that Alien Comms are "lame". His credentials have nothing to do with it.
<!--quoteo(post=1810127:date=Nov 24 2010, 09:03 PM:name=PseudoKnight)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PseudoKnight @ Nov 24 2010, 09:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810127"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've said it before, but I think alien commanders strip out a unique characteristic of this game. It's mostly a moot point now, as the dev team seems committed to the idea, but the new resource model would have been just fine with Gorges controlling it. I'll be encouraging the development of a mod that brings back some of the asymmetry that made NS so appealing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
people keep saying this. "can't wait for a mod of NS2 that makes it like NS1!" how naive can you be?
each mod takes the player base of the game and splits it. each mod competes with the others to attract players. if NS2 doesn't get enough new players to be interested in it on its own merits, how are they going to get people migrate from NS2 to an NS1mod of NS2? will, then, such an NS1mod of NS2 depend entirely on old NS vets who still play?
they tried this with DoD:S by creating a "pro" mod that tried to bring back elements of the original (eg: ammunition, gun damage, shooting mechanics). DoD:S had the whole of the valve bahemoth behind it, and DoD itself was more populous than NS. <a href="http://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Prodod" target="_blank">http://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Prodod</a>
so what happened to the DoD:S pro mod? despite DOD's booming competitive community which was bigger than NS's, the pro mod for its sequel never took off. it never inspired the lost players who craved the original and were let down by the sequel to come back.
<!--quoteo(post=1811091:date=Nov 27 2010, 02:56 AM:name=Res)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Res @ Nov 27 2010, 02:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1811091"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>(which brings up a secondary point).
Players opinions of NS2 who have NEVER played NS1 are a better indicator for NS2's success or failure.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you added this while i was writing so i didn't respond, but i've thought this too. NS2 will depend upon an entirely new group of players since the NS1 fans (and not necessarily just vets) are going to be disappointed by the sweeping changes. that'd be fine and all, but why take money from fans of the original to make a game so different that it's guaranteed to alienate a large segment of your original fans/people who donated because they liked the original game?
it's like Flayra has taken a Zen of Sudoku approach to NS2 of creating this nice, polished, accessible (and therefore) very popular and profitable gaming experience. they flattened the "learning curve" at the expense of the ability to distinguish yourself from the lower levels of skill, at the expense of the dynamism which other users (thecowgoesmoo) elaborated in this thread. it's not an issue of tweaking variables to balance the game, it's the fundamentals of what made NS that have changed in NS2 beyond recognition (as the original thread topic is pointing out) and for the worse.
NS1 exists, you can go play it, you've been playing it for years, why would you want to play it again? It is already stale, it's already been played to death, why would you go to the effort of making a game that has already been played to death? You might as well make a mod called 'generic fps game with standard weapons and maps that you have played a million times before'.
I want a new game, from what I've played i'm GETTING a new game, and I'm really happy about it.
Comments
tying marine tech to expansion is for sure a diff, but it affects timing of upgrades more than anything. as you pointed out, in ns1 you needed to grab a hive location to deny the aliens anyway. of course in the current beta, marine expansion is a make or break event for both sides.
as for the alien comm. its *almost* like you have a cap on 'gorges' (or at least part of the old ns1 gorge function) based on the # of hives & you need to run back to a hive to morph into one. makes the ninja resource grabs in your scenario a little tougher.
i thought somebody suggested that an alien could sacrifice into being a drifter, which would allow an alien to get that part of the build equation into position easier.
No doubt, UWE has a lot of tuning & feature mods ahead.
in 6 month when beta will be almost complete with stable server and balance gameplay, you will all enjoy the game with a combat commander who drop replicate medpack ammo pack and other com who tech watch the base and place seentry.
you will love the alien push with alien commm who drop whip+crag, use umbra or action of the all 4 chamber. (event jsut the umbra is already so good and so fun)
multicomming is a firt one in history of video game like ns1 one was one of the first mixt rst/fps
the only thing i think must be absolute be implement in game its all secondary com cannot recycle cause it will be so much lame about people who get into second or third CC and recycle ervything.
i get 30 hour of game 30 hour of fun,.
i wait so much dynamic infestation for give to alien com is truly role
in 6 month when beta will be almost complete with stable server and balance gameplay, you will all enjoy the game with a combat commander who drop replicate medpack ammo pack and other com who tech watch the base and place seentry.
you will love the alien push with alien commm who drop whip+crag, use umbra or action of the all 4 chamber. (event jsut the umbra is already so good and so fun)
multicomming is a firt one in history of video game like ns1 one was one of the first mixt rst/fps
the only thing i think must be absolute be implement in game its all secondary com cannot recycle cause it will be so much lame about people who get into second or third CC and recycle ervything.
i get 30 hour of game 30 hour of fun,.
i wait so much dynamic infestation for give to alien com is truly role<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
>he thinks that NS2 is the first game to have multiple comms
As far as multiple commanders go, I guess there isn't any need to stop it since nobody really cares about the commander now anyways. He just builds his things independently while the team is doing their thing. Where is the teamwork?
One thing that I also dislike is that the comm doesn't drop the weapons, JPs, HAs, etc. anymore. I remember having to earn my shotty. That made me feel good and kept me coming back.
PS - Don't try to justify the need for these horrible new NS2 features with a specific scenario. I can write a freaking Bible with much more interesting NS1 scenarios. It doesn't prove anything...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this is a good point, and one i have found to be true. No one gives a rat's ass about the commander Everymarine just runs out into teh world rambo style wasting resources as he goes. The mac's move independantly and through the vents so marines cant even keep up with them. No one listens to the alien commander either, and half the time people are walking around as gorge saying, why cant i build structures etc....And when you explain it too them they all say, oh thats dumb what is the point of the gorge then and my response is, well, battlefield medic, but since NO ONE works in teams on either side whatsoever there is no need for a battlefield medic, especially since marine just one shot fades anyways, not much use healing something that dies in a millisecond.
A big problem here is that, marines have lost all teamwork, one random newb can come in the middle of a game, take all teh resources, get killed and leave. It's really dumb, the comm cant even choose who get's the precious resources.
Also, I've found playing as the comm, you can just take over the map by yourself in about 45second-1 minute, just make a bunch of mac's or drifters and bam, map control taken....Used to take 15-20 minutes to secure extra map locations, now it takes literally seconds and can be done by one person...You can start the game by dropping a hive/command center. I mean what the hell is that? it should be 5 minutes until anyone can afford anything....
This game is just another "Shooter" game as far as im concerned now, aliens vrs marines, from ns1 has been ruined, there is absolutely no teamwork or real time strategy whatsoever at this point. Even when peopel try to use mic's and work together it is useless with how powerful one person can be on marine side. In a 5-6 minute game, the entire marine side can load up on Flamethrowers, They are cheap, seems like everything for marines is cheap. What is the point of working together as a team If I can just go and get another flamethrwoer after I die and no one can stop me? Resources come too fast, withing 2-3 minutes aliens can have fades up and the whole team and go fade, die go fade again, die, go fade again, seems like resources are endless all the time. It should be, hey 7-8 minutes in, going first fade, I need some skulk and gorge back-up, but no, by that time everyone has already been fade 2-3 times....
It's nice to think, oh well NS2 players will be mature and the game will work istelf out, but no, gamers arent mature, and will use whatever advantage they can get. ie: try to play a game right now , 100% of rine using flamthrower and just laming up the games, making it not very fun to play whatsoever. a whole team of fades can't even stop 1 flamethrower or 1 grenade launcher.
The mechanics of the teamplay need to be worked on, "Rambo 3 Aliens on a spaceship", does no sound like a fun game, something MUST be done to encourage teamwork on both sides. At minimum comm must be allowed to restrict who gets which weapons,. otherwsie there will be nerdraging in 28 different countries/languages.
<b><u></u><!--sizeo:6--><span style="font-size:24pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->BEING ABLE TO DROP A HIVE/CC IN THE FIRST 5 SECONDS OF THE GAME IS A RETARDED IDEA<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b>Theres no way around it, If I can simply start the game, jump in the hive, and drop a second hive? what is the point of this, your telling me that as an alien commander, I am forced into doing monotonous tasks THE SAME WAY EVERYGAME FOR ALL GAMES, FOREVER EVERYTIME!!!!!! FFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU that is how that makes me feel, I don't want to do the same thing everygame. The was the whole point of the commander in ns1, to say, hey, this game we are shotgun rushing, or this game we are rushing double nodes, or this game we are taking a hive. NOW ALL HE CAN FREKIUN DO IS SAY, "Hey guys, were gonna do the exact same thing we have already tried 40,000 times, and do it in the same order we always do it, cause that is the only way we have a chance......The Amount of strategies that can be used by either team have just been widdled down too 1, expand to nearest hive, theres nothing stopping you and you dont need anyhelp to do it so wtf is even the point of the whole game I sometimes wonder...If it's so easy to make the second tech point, we mine as well just freakin start the game with the tech point already up what is the point of making someone go commander and drop the hive, that is stupid and monotonous. People will become so bored with commander mode no one will ever do it.
I'd have to say my biggest complaint is that, THERE ARE NO SPARE RESOURCE NODES, which really just throws out strategy from the game altogether. Cause now its all about tech points and getting resources/hives is very easy, instead of very difficult. I have never once yet played a game where My team did not have enough resources, even in death or about to lose the game, still 100's of resources for everyone to spend on crap.....The level of difficulty has plumeted through the floor What was a teamwork/strategy based game, plays more like a crappy version of Alien's vrs predator.<u></u>[size="6"]<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->[color="#FF0000"][/color]
agreed, gorges should have power over crag's and whips
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=111628" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=111628</a>
@thecowsaysmoo
yes, you are completely correct in what you say
BUT
90% of your concerns are about balance.
and balance will be dealt with as soon as the game works technically and almost all important features are in.
what we have now is IN NO WAY a final product - more a proof of concept.
You do understand the current maps are for beta testing and there will be bigger maps in the release? Also I would expect all the upgrade timings, starting resources, resource cost and res gain to be adjusted when UWE gets to the point where they can focus on the balance instead of bugs and other problems.
Such things will get dealt with as we move out of 'features and bug fixes' and into 'balance'.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, I've found playing as the comm, you can just take over the map by yourself in about 45second-1 minute, just make a bunch of mac's or drifters and bam, map control taken....Used to take 15-20 minutes to secure extra map locations, now it takes literally seconds and can be done by one person...You can start the game by dropping a hive/command center. I mean what the hell is that? it should be 5 minutes until anyone can afford anything....
In a 5-6 minute game, the entire marine side can load up on Flamethrowers, They are cheap, seems like everything for marines is cheap. What is the point of working together as a team If I can just go and get another flamethrwoer after I die and no one can stop me? Resources come too fast, withing 2-3 minutes aliens can have fades up and the whole team and go fade, die go fade again, die, go fade again, seems like resources are endless all the time. It should be, hey 7-8 minutes in, going first fade, I need some skulk and gorge back-up, but no, by that time everyone has already been fade 2-3 times....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Have you considered the possibility that the resource system is intentionally high at the moment so that people can test all the functionality? This is a (very) early beta. Balance is barely on the table at the moment.
Couldn't agree more.
I generally hate playing aliens, but alien commanding is nice, you have freedom to place structures where they're needed to support your players, it's not as spammy as marine comm and the structures lend themselves to inventive placement, the whip should be placed to ambush, the crag placed to be covered by geometry, stuff like that is fun. It'll be even cooler when we can move whips, I totally want to see what I can do with that ability.
Marine commanding is also nicer with the multiple comms, For the most part it's nice to have someone else jump in and start doing stuff when you're busy elsewhere. There's a lot of room for micro especially with marines, so having someone else to help out is good.
I hate the idea of FPSRTS but the beta seems to really be doing it quite well. It still has the usual problem of not many people wanting to do it, but there's not much you can do about that.
The general feeling in that time was a go ahead with it. Lots of fun. And guess what, it is.
LOL. No, they don't. Only the terrible ones do, like Dawn of War (which is so badly balanced it's probably brought up in Digipen as an example of terrible game design).
And again, you obviously know nothing about how difficult balancing games is. Only Blizzard can pull ###### like that off. And Blizzard is merged with ###### Activision and has WoW and has a proven brand name and has 200 employees and has a five year development cycle and has done this before over years of patches on a retail game with millions of customers and <i>birthed mother ###### esports because their game was so well balanced</i>. That's a lot of things Unknown Worlds Entertainment and everyone else making an RTS doesn't have.
Just... no. Just no. You don't know anything, you don't know why you like NS1, you just mistakenly assign feelings of nostalgia to bad game design because you can't comprehend NS1's imperfection and imbalance and think everything NS1 related is completely awesome.
I also have a lot more examples. But you don't care because you don't even consider something other than the gospel of NS1's perfection. Once I say "NS1 was wrong..." you just tune me out and don't hear anything. I know realizing imperfection in something we love is tough. But it's life. Life isn't perfect. Nothing is perfect and there's always a dark lining to cherished memories. Realize this and get over it so you can starting making the next thing better instead of denying reality.
And again, you obviously know nothing about how difficult balancing games is. Only Blizzard can pull ###### like that off. And Blizzard is merged with ###### Activision and has WoW and has a proven brand name and has 200 employees and has a five year development cycle and has done this before over years of patches on a retail game with millions of customers and <i>birthed mother ###### esports because their game was so well balanced</i>. That's a lot of things Unknown Worlds Entertainment and everyone else making an RTS doesn't have.
Just... no. Just no. You don't know anything, you don't know why you like NS1, you just mistakenly assign feelings of nostalgia to bad game design because you can't comprehend NS1's imperfection and imbalance and think everything NS1 related is completely awesome.
I also have a lot more examples. But you don't care because you don't even consider something other than the gospel of NS1's perfection. Once I say "NS1 was wrong..." you just tune me out and don't hear anything. I know realizing imperfection in something we love is tough. But it's life. Life isn't perfect. Nothing is perfect and there's always a dark lining to cherished memories. Realize this and get over it so you can starting making the next thing better instead of denying reality.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
are you speaking from the perspective of a competitive player? because the average gamer doesn't care about any of that stuff.
About what stuff?
And no, I was never a "competitive" NS1 Player, never part of any clan, never had a scrimmage match. I just played the game on public servers with whoever (and still do). Maybe that makes me "average"?
Bad game balance pretty much kills any game, because you can't play it if it's badly balanced. If one strategy is better than others then the game becomes immediately and incredibly boring, because it's the only one people use and the only one you can use to win.
'average gamers' don't care about a lot of things, and that's what makes them gamers and not developers, developers have to care about a lot of things because otherwise they games they make are terrible, and all the 'average gamers' don't play them.
<u><i><b>
Protip: The game is not yet complete! There will be additional features, the functionality of which is yet to be revealed, to complement changes such as Alien Commanders, etc. NS2 is not NS1 plus Alien Commanders! It is NS1 plus/minus many different features! Current game balance is not indicative of final game balance!</b></i></u>
Need healing? drop a Crag. Need offense chambers? drop a Whip. Need ranged damage? go Lerk.
Dunno if they are going to implement Web to NS2 but nevertheless gorges are better off being skulks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Saying that Gorges are now useless because the Commander can drop Crags is like saying Medics in TF2 are useless because Engineers can drop Dispensers. Direct in-combat healing will always be useful, and Gorges can also strengthen any position with their cheap Hydras. Comms have to send out Drifters to drop those Whips, and remember that those Whips cost resources that could be used for upgrades, expansions, etc. Same for Crags.
The new Gorge I see as having a lot of similarities to the "Battle-Engie" style of play seen in TF2, and that's a playstyle that can be incredibly fun. His role has changed certainly, but not, I believe at least, for the worst.
Voice chat works pretty well, so does text. Unless your playing with blind mutes you should get a reply, give it a try sometime, unless they just ignore and shout abuse. In that case, I think teamwork has left the server and you should change :)
Regarding the teamwork and commander's building placement. I've had commanders on both sides 'caring', forward crags and defensive whips for the players pushing into the base have saved many aliens from death and helped them advance.
I've also seen a fair share of commanders for the marines do this with an armory/ dropping health and ammo, and one or two well placed turrets.
Heck, last night I had some guy who seemed to feel the need to alert us to every upgrade he was doing. It was rather touching.
Also, if your commander is not doing this, then hope there's a free hive/comm to jump into
<!--quoteo(post=1809967:date=Nov 25 2010, 05:17 AM:name=PoNeH)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PoNeH @ Nov 25 2010, 05:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1809967"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One thing that I also dislike is that the comm doesn't drop the weapons, JPs, HAs, etc. anymore. I remember having to earn my shotty. That made me feel good and kept me coming back.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I actually like this idea, I'd rather much rather the comm work on dropping the armory/capping the res node and putting up a turret than dropping weapons, but hey, each to their own. Might be fixable with a mod post release if a coder or two cared enough.
The armory is better.
for me .. ns2 did not feels like natural selection should.
I totaly dislike the new commanders role on both sides.
Macs are ok but should be "optional".
another big point for me is the taken oportunity to build whereever u want as an Mariene commander. That makes every commander a bit uniqe and it is lost ... i see the moments comming where all comms just sit in and do "the standard play".
and whats about a Turret factory ?
Devs, i realy like the way u communicate with the community and the way u do ur work but im realy sorry that i have to say "This is NOT Natural Selection as we all know and love it :( "
sorry for my horrible english im german
Anyway it's silly to suggest they remove a major gameplay element before the game has taken shape and we've got used to it.
<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
<!--quoteo(post=1809875:date=Nov 24 2010, 01:08 PM:name=yourbonesakin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yourbonesakin @ Nov 24 2010, 01:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1809875"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You just sound like an obvious troll.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This ENTIRE argument about not liking the NS2 changes compared to NS1 is EXACTLY like the argument the TFC players had for TF2. Guess what? TF2 is a HUGE success now. It is one of the most played FPS games out there now.
I will give you this though, the veteran TFC players, to this day, do not like the changes they made with TF2. There are very few TFC veteran players that switched to TF2 and play it consistently.
<b>This story goes to show you that, an NS sequel can be a huge success WITHOUT any input from veteran players of the prequel just like TF2 did.</b> (Granted the biggest difference is that TF2 had a lot more resources to pool from than NS2's small team, however, there wouldn't be that many people playing TF2 if most people thought it was bad.).
<b>(which brings up a secondary point).
Players opinions of NS2 who have NEVER played NS1 are a better indicator for NS2's success or failure.</b>
<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He sounded like a troll because this topic has been discussed to death, and he didn't provide any worthwhile arguments in his first post other than saying that Alien Comms are "lame". His credentials have nothing to do with it.
people keep saying this. "can't wait for a mod of NS2 that makes it like NS1!" how naive can you be?
each mod takes the player base of the game and splits it. each mod competes with the others to attract players. if NS2 doesn't get enough new players to be interested in it on its own merits, how are they going to get people migrate from NS2 to an NS1mod of NS2? will, then, such an NS1mod of NS2 depend entirely on old NS vets who still play?
they tried this with DoD:S by creating a "pro" mod that tried to bring back elements of the original (eg: ammunition, gun damage, shooting mechanics). DoD:S had the whole of the valve bahemoth behind it, and DoD itself was more populous than NS.
<a href="http://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Prodod" target="_blank">http://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Prodod</a>
so what happened to the DoD:S pro mod? despite DOD's booming competitive community which was bigger than NS's, the pro mod for its sequel never took off. it never inspired the lost players who craved the original and were let down by the sequel to come back.
<!--quoteo(post=1811091:date=Nov 27 2010, 02:56 AM:name=Res)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Res @ Nov 27 2010, 02:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1811091"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>(which brings up a secondary point).
Players opinions of NS2 who have NEVER played NS1 are a better indicator for NS2's success or failure.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you added this while i was writing so i didn't respond, but i've thought this too. NS2 will depend upon an entirely new group of players since the NS1 fans (and not necessarily just vets) are going to be disappointed by the sweeping changes. that'd be fine and all, but why take money from fans of the original to make a game so different that it's guaranteed to alienate a large segment of your original fans/people who donated because they liked the original game?
it's like Flayra has taken a Zen of Sudoku approach to NS2 of creating this nice, polished, accessible (and therefore) very popular and profitable gaming experience. they flattened the "learning curve" at the expense of the ability to distinguish yourself from the lower levels of skill, at the expense of the dynamism which other users (thecowgoesmoo) elaborated in this thread. it's not an issue of tweaking variables to balance the game, it's the fundamentals of what made NS that have changed in NS2 beyond recognition (as the original thread topic is pointing out) and for the worse.
<a href="http://i53.tinypic.com/1j8cop.jpg" target="_blank">@ donner</a>
NS1 exists, you can go play it, you've been playing it for years, why would you want to play it again? It is already stale, it's already been played to death, why would you go to the effort of making a game that has already been played to death? You might as well make a mod called 'generic fps game with standard weapons and maps that you have played a million times before'.
I want a new game, from what I've played i'm GETTING a new game, and I'm really happy about it.