<!--quoteo(post=1814617:date=Dec 9 2010, 08:28 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Dec 9 2010, 08:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1814617"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As for the fade itself, it seems much too hard to kill right now. The fairly high health on top of the ability to just vanish out of enemy crosshairs is a bit much, so I'd favor something like 175/100 hp/ap instead of 250/150 (?) that we have now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> To put this in context, how much damage does a NS2 SG blast deal to fade in the present patch? The machine gun is somewhat similar to NS1 LMG, right?
Also, how does the NS2 armour system work? Is it still 2 points/1 point of carapace?
175/100 is something you could quite comfortable take with 2 shots of NS1 shotgun for example, at least on higher upgrades. That would make fade quite a bit of glass cannon if marines are feeling snap happy with the SGs.
<!--quoteo(post=1814669:date=Dec 10 2010, 12:55 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Dec 10 2010, 12:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1814669"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To put this in context, how much damage does a NS2 SG blast deal to fade in the present patch? The machine gun is somewhat similar to NS1 LMG, right?
Also, how does the NS2 armour system work? Is it still 2 points/1 point of carapace?
175/100 is something you could quite comfortable take with 2 shots of NS1 shotgun for example, at least on higher upgrades. That would make fade quite a bit of glass cannon if marines are feeling snap happy with the SGs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> IIRC it takes 3 shotgun blasts for the current fade, so that's 1 less. Assuming perfect accuracy and point blank, I guess?
<!--quoteo(post=1814608:date=Dec 9 2010, 03:19 PM:name=xVisions)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xVisions @ Dec 9 2010, 03:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1814608"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Games don't have the outrageously high skill cap anymore that allows some of the really really good players to just completely wash the floor with everyone else. What fun is that for most people? That isn't balance at all and does not encourage people to want to play and enjoy games. I think your attitude toward games is really misguided and my evidence is your example that games have been made easier to play (COD). This seems to be the bane of all hardcore gamers because it is a overkill of lowering a skill cap, which isn't bad for this game its made for people to have fun and enjoy. Hardcore gamers just fear that it is going to become the norm of the gaming industry and I would have to argue that this flat out isn't the case.
In a game that is team based, allowing one player to completely destroy a entire team is a poorly balanced game. You make the argument that its like sports; since NS2 is a team game I'd use football as a example.. it doesn't matter how freaking good you are you are not going to be able to score touchdowns entirely on your own, while you may have a huge impact its pretty insignificant to the team effort as a whole.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The hyper competitive minority should not be playing with the casual majority. All gamers can be served with one game, they just can't all be playing together. Chess grandmasters are never matched up with complete new comers. That's not fun for anyone, you're right.
Players should be allowed to get better at games. Yes, this means a hard worker would completely and utterly rofl stomp new comers.... if they ever actually play each other and they should never play each other except for novelty or maybe matches amongst friends.
The skill ceiling should be very, very high. So high we won't reach it until NS3 comes out. Otherwise, people WILL discard NS2. NS2 WILL become just another game which the game industry churns out and expects us to play for a year until the next game comes out. We don't want that. We want NS2 to not only be a great game which forever defines the FPS-RTS genre and influences games made a decade from now (like Half Life and Half Life 2 did for FPS), but the greatest FPS-RTS game ever until NS3 comes out and blows NS2 out the water and becomes next greatest FPS-RTS game ever.
The reasons for these desires should be obvious. Great games sell well. Genre defining games usually sell even better until their sequels come out. We want NS2 to sell well and be famous so Unknown Worlds Entertainment's talented and devoted developers can keep making pleasing games.
Of course, we don't want the skill cap to be based on something stupid. Like SC1's terribad UI where only 12 units or one building could be selected simultaneously. That's just an APM tax. It definitely raises the skill cap so only players will enormous effective APM can play competitively, but we don't like it. The things which make NS2's skill cap almost unreachable should be easy to learn and hard to completely master without being routine clicking chores. This means the commanders' macromanagement and micromanagement should be broadly simple but nuanced and complex at closer inspection. The same for every ability of FPS soldiers.
175/100 would be less than 40 unupgraded LMG bullets. Considering that you have to stand almost still while swiping and that medspam still can probably give marine some extra lifetime, the HP count feels extremely. That's pure theorycrafting though.
My idea for adding more dynamic gameplay to blink is to make blink a more controlled action.
On right-click down, transition into null-space/ghost mode. In this altered form, the fade can move very quickly in any direction. In the ghost-mode, the fade could pass through structures and players. Once the right-click is released, the fade re-appears back into normal-mode. This allows for the player to move in any way they wish. While in ghost-mode, adren would constantly be drained at a certain rate (to be balanced later). If adren hits zero when in ghost-mode, the fade would instantly return to normal-mode.
The only problems with this would be controlling telefragging and the like. This could be remedied by forcing the fade to re-appear in the nearest un-occupied space. That way fades couldn't telefrag or get stuck in structures.
Another alternate idea is to allow momentum to be conserved through a blink. This would be similar to how momentum is conserved through portals in the game Portal. This would allow for some very interesting maneuvers somewhat akin to Bhopping. By blinking into the air, a now falling fade could then blink again while retaining the momentum of falling on exit from the blink. The main problem here is how to control the direction of momentum on blink exit. The momentum of falling is a downward vector, while a fade exiting a blink would most likely want the momentum to be translated into horizontal or even upward movement. I really like this idea because it connects the 'teleporting' blink concept with the 'portal' concept as a way to bend physics beyond what we consider normal.
Less on-topic: Another idea floods my head....
Maybe an upgraded ability of the fade could be creating small temporary portals connecting different areas of the map. This would be a way for fades to facilitate ambushes and escapes for lerks/skulks/gorges. The portals duration could be linked to the fade's adren. This would force the portal ability to be very short lived.
<!--quoteo(post=1814682:date=Dec 10 2010, 01:33 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Dec 10 2010, 01:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1814682"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Considering that you have to stand almost still while swiping<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> wut? I guess walking speed is practically nothing compared to teleporting, but still I'm not sure we're thinking about the same thing?
<!--quoteo(post=1814534:date=Dec 9 2010, 08:14 AM:name=TrC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrC @ Dec 9 2010, 08:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1814534"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If one player dominates server down then I'm sorry that the opponent is just not trying hard enough, strategy is the part where they fail hard. Chances are that player uses 10 times more time practicing than average player and who is to say he does not deserve the small edge he gains for doing so. NS1 is very flexible and there are plenty of ways to get past even more to ward away narrowminded strategy or simple movement like camping or running just aint gonna work.
Everything should not be clear after few weeks or months of play, further evolving gameplay is the most beatiful form failing to understand this is everyones own choice but dont let it lessen what a game could possible offer.
15 ENSL seasons say otherwise.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Strategy isn't being more practiced at bunny hopping. Strategy is being being able to outsmart your opponent. If the only way you can considered yourself skilled and beat your opponent is by being better at bunny hopping, then I am sorry.
I've enjoyed my fair share of bunny hopping, but I don't want to see it in future games. Its looks retarded and belongs in the games where it originated. I still enjoy them, but NS2 isn't that "type" of game imo.
<!--quoteo(post=1814704:date=Dec 10 2010, 05:46 AM:name=Tacota)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tacota @ Dec 10 2010, 05:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1814704"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Strategy isn't being more practiced at bunny hopping. Strategy is being being able to outsmart your opponent. If the only way you can considered yourself skilled and beat your opponent is by being better at bunny hopping, then I am sorry.
I've enjoyed my fair share of bunny hopping, but I don't want to see it in future games. Its looks retarded and belongs in the games where it originated. I still enjoy them, but NS2 isn't that "type" of game imo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Bunnyhobbing has nothing to do with strategy, however it is a method how well coordinated skulk ambush actually work it is instant after reaction simply walking or jumping isnt gonna cut it its slow. Like I said simple corner camping or walking straight is not gonna work after few months of play. I certainly you hope arent the type that thinks chuckle or corner peeking / biting is a good way of distraction.
If you truly had your fair share and compare it NS2 walking saying its inferior then you can surely tell method you used to achieve your style of bhob.
needing two clicks to blink, and when marines tech up, with slow reactions to move away or run - things might not be pretty. I still don't see how they will ever catch jet-packers/moving target, fades currently good on the grounding more if anything. Lerks can't bite and onos can't fly, that leaves skulks?
ns2 fades don't feel as flexible as ns1 fades. The blink effect is amazing, but two clicks is too much for class that depends on speed, and quickness.
<!--quoteo(post=1814735:date=Dec 10 2010, 06:24 AM:name=luns)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (luns @ Dec 10 2010, 06:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1814735"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->needing two clicks to blink, and when marines tech up, with slow reactions to move away or run - things might not be pretty. I still don't see how they will ever catch jet-packers/moving target, fades currently good on the grounding more if anything. Lerks can't bite and onos can't fly, that leaves skulks?
ns2 fades don't feel as flexible as ns1 fades. The blink effect is amazing, but two clicks is too much for class that depends on speed, and quickness.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So why can't you gas and spike with lerk? The JPs aren't HAs. There's also hydras, whips, and if need be, skulks. It's really too soon to say X class or X ability doesn't work when so much of the game is still missing.
<!--quoteo(post=1814737:date=Dec 10 2010, 07:29 AM:name=Avalon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Avalon @ Dec 10 2010, 07:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1814737"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So why can't you gas and spike with lerk? The JPs aren't HAs. There's also hydras, whips, and if need be, skulks. It's really too soon to say X class or X ability doesn't work when so much of the game is still missing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i totally agree, much of the game is missing. Though the current fades don't seem as flexible as ns1 fades. the blink trigger has to change, fades are known for their speed and quickness, now they seem more ground type alien.
I would like to propose a compromise. In exchange for the greater accessibility and reduced individual skill level; UWE introduces funny hats. For every 100hrs of game play, you receive a different funny hat. That way the game can continue to more accessible and everyone can still recognize your leetness.
<!--quoteo(post=1814741:date=Dec 10 2010, 07:34 AM:name=shiv)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (shiv @ Dec 10 2010, 07:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1814741"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would like to propose a compromise. In exchange for the greater accessibility and reduced individual skill level; UWE introduces funny hats. For every 100hrs of game play, you receive a different funny hat. That way the game can continue to more accessible and everyone can still recognize your leetness.
Who's with me??<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
maybe the longer you play the bigger the hat you get, end of the week we compare our sizes.
<!--quoteo(post=1814682:date=Dec 9 2010, 07:33 PM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Dec 9 2010, 07:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1814682"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->175/100 would be less than 40 unupgraded LMG bullets. Considering that you have to stand almost still while swiping and that medspam still can probably give marine some extra lifetime, the HP count feels extremely. That's pure theorycrafting though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree so much.
I don't like the fade costing 50 resources and being super omega powerful. It's just... dumb. Marines with no equipment shouldn't be allowed a chance against something with 50 resources of equipment, so the fade just ends up getting 50 kills and rofl stomping vanilla marines. Or it dies with 2 kills and is a huge waste of resources. There's no happy medium. Either an entire team is getting thrashed or someone wasted their plasma for the entire game. This is bad. It's all logically consistent, but we don't like the logical conclusions of allowing a 50 resource weapon worth the money at tier 2.
The tier 2 alien classes/abilities should have a less crazy insane cost and be less powerful. The 50 resource cost made sense in NS1. Fades had to be timed to pop out at 4 minutes or whatever. That's great. NS2 is not NS1. Fades require two hives now anyway so the timing is already taken care of. We don't need to follow tortured logic and arrive at an overpowered lifeform any more.
Bacillus is right. I'd like somewhere around 450-500 health and about 35 plasma cost. I know people are going to bring up lerk cost and tell me fades are too powerful to cost only 5 more plasma than lerks. And you know what? You're right! Lerks cost a crazy insane broken amount of money right now and they need to be fixed! <b>Porting over the exact replicas of NS1 lifeforms (costs/ health/ speed/ DPS/ hitbox) to NS2 and using the logic "Well, it worked in NS1" is not logically consistent. NS2 is not NS1. We are not making a modification to NS1. We are making an entirely new game and we need entirely new numbers to go with the entirely different resource model. The old numbers are much too high.</b>
The numbers need to change soon. Either that or we make shotguns cost 20 plasma, grenade launchers and flamethrowers cost 30 plasma, and jetpacks+exo suits cost 20 plasma so every team can feel the extreme bipolar nature of NS2. See? It's balanced that way.
Sigh. I think I'm done. To sum up, NS1 was awesome but flawed and NS2 can and will be better. I normally trust Unknown Worlds Entertainment to safely traverse the incredible landmine field of game balance and come up with something awesome. The extreme lifeform costs make me nervous so I'll rant a bit and hopefully the ranting won't be necessary.
I know for certain there are diehard NS1 fans who cannot conceive any of NS1's (understandable!!!) imperfections, and this is more aimed at increasing the awareness and intelligence of the community so they applaud divergences from NS1 instead of giving knee jerk xenophobic responses (which are valid on some level).
Seems a lot of people are missing the fact that bunnyhopping was originally an engine glitch with aerial acceleration that people got used to, and was kept for all the fast paced fps' of that generation, then phased out with the next generation of engines.
I used to love bhops, concjumps, etc, but they become redundant once the engine can use actual abilities to achieve the same goal. What would be the purpose of bunnyhopping with leap in it's current state, once you have it upgraded it will take you further faster than bhopping could, even without the upgrade it is around the same speed advantage as bhopping unless you have a long clear corridor (which you probably shouldnt sprint down as a skulk anyway).
Anyway back to the fade blink, I don't see what the big issue is with having 2 clicks to blink - if you don't want the time to aim your blink, just double click. It will react exactly as if they only needed you to click once, and should take you almost no time at all between clicks.
There's a lot of good suggestions for how the blink should end up. I just feel no matter how it goes, anything that automatically moves/turns you without any input has no place in a PC game. We need to have a reliable method of determining which way we will face at the end of a blink, to be able to plan in advance.
Personally, when I randomly spin a different way because a marine has walked in as I blinked, or even just misjudged my distance a little, it takes away from the control I have over the game and just leaves me feeling disoriented
<!--quoteo(post=1814742:date=Dec 10 2010, 06:36 AM:name=luns)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (luns @ Dec 10 2010, 06:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1814742"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->maybe the longer you play the bigger the hat you get, end of the week we compare our sizes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe every single steam achievement you get for the game can be written on the Hat and so it'll get bigger as you get more....
Anyway serious face: I think that pressing the movement key for the direction you wish to face when coming out of blink would be quite an intuitive way of giving control back to the player and still allowing you to rotate mid blink. (And I still think double tap mini-blinks would be cool/fun and less disorientating).
I hope all the BH discussion won't put off the UWE guy from seeing some of the good ideas in this thread!
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Another alternate idea is to allow momentum to be conserved through a blink. This would be similar to how momentum is conserved through portals in the game Portal. This would allow for some very interesting maneuvers somewhat akin to Bhopping. By blinking into the air, a now falling fade could then blink again while retaining the momentum of falling on exit from the blink. The main problem here is how to control the direction of momentum on blink exit. The momentum of falling is a downward vector, while a fade exiting a blink would most likely want the momentum to be translated into horizontal or even upward movement. I really like this idea because it connects the 'teleporting' blink concept with the 'portal' concept as a way to bend physics beyond what we consider normal.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's exactly what I wanted to post. I think it could be great, you could get some speed by chaining blinks and then do a blink-slash-blink attack while "flying" close to marines. It would be more difficult to do that a static blink attack but more efficient. I'm not sure how it should be done but maybe a way to implement it would be simply to add a bit of momentum when you blink (in the current direction) so chaining blinks would result in an exponential speed gain (capped by energy).
Yeah, I feel controlled momentum would be awesome. I scetched something along those lines in page 1, but didn't really mention momentum preservation in particular. It's definitely an interesting possibility.
I think the teleport itself should give quite a bit accelration, since falling down isn't particularly reliable on cramped spaces, but otherwise it sounds great. The exact rules of momentum preservation and acceleration can be tweaked once the concept is good.
As for the direction controlling, I suggested the ghosting phase before exiting the teleport.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>Possibly make blink less instant.</b> The idea is to give fade more options than to just snap around as fast as it can. For example fade could stay in the blink dimension for a moment if necessary as long as the energy cost is extremely steep. It could be used as last resort survival method or just as a momentarily decoy that allows skulks to move in. All in all, it gives fade more interaction and adren management options.
I think one option would be to add a 'ghost' phase once you've targeted your blink. The fade would disappear and your viewpoint would be at the teleport exit. Then you could quickly aim your teleport exit and possibly even choose the amount of momentum before exiting the teleport phase itself. You could also hang in there at the cost of adren. If necessary, the autoaim can be there too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1814746:date=Dec 10 2010, 08:32 AM:name=yourbonesakin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yourbonesakin @ Dec 10 2010, 08:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1814746"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bacillus is right. I'd like somewhere around 450-500 health and about 35 plasma cost. I know people are going to bring up lerk cost and tell me fades are too powerful to cost only 5 more plasma than lerks. And you know what? You're right! Lerks cost a crazy insane broken amount of money right now and they need to be fixed!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't get it. You want to make it even more difficult to kill and also cheaper? But in most any game now, everyone ends up having 999 plasma long before the game ends!
<!--quoteo(post=1814776:date=Dec 10 2010, 02:40 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Dec 10 2010, 02:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1814776"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't get it. You want to make it even more difficult to kill and also cheaper? But in most any game now, everyone ends up having 999 plasma long before the game ends!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm not sure whether I understand anything of this either. What I'm mostly trying to do is to put the fade HP into some kind of context I know and not in particular trying to dictate any role for it. If the low HP suits the fade in NS2, by all means make the fade have low HP.
High cost, melee commitment and too low HP seem unfriendly combination for newbies though. A little similar situation as if NS1 lerk didn't have spore to give lerk some steady support ability in addition to the high risk biting. I don't know how UWE intends that.
Yeh I'm not sure myself that just making it more glass-cannon-y is a good idea, but right now the fade is just too good, if you've got a bit of skill with blinking.
It is certainly powerful, although my solution certainly wouldn't be to make the controls worse by making blink hard to use.
Cutting the health is an option although I think that relegates the fade to simply being as you said, a glass cannon.
I think adding cooldowns to blink or making it use more energy would be a better solution, possibly you get two blinks in rapid succession before you need five to ten seconds or so to cool down. That should mean you can get in and get out or you can blink, attack, then blink again, but you can't do that constantly, right now the highly spammable teleport makes the fade a bit too hard to pin down.
If a fade uses its blink to close for an attack and to move in combat, it shouldn't also be able to get away instantly. At the moment it requires a rather stupid fade or a lag spike to actually die, because the only threat is two or three marines with shotguns all looking right at you.
I would also like the automatic facing put back in, I liked it in the first version that had it but it doesn't seem to work any more.
<!--quoteo(post=1814593:date=Dec 9 2010, 09:59 PM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Dec 9 2010, 09:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1814593"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well TrC good lucky checking every corner, vent and hole in NS2 because it is a lot more complicated than the simple boxy rooms that were NS1. If it is anything like west wing on Rockdown, it will be a nightmare for marines.
It is far easier getting kills as aliens currently than it is as marines, so I am not sure where the argument is coming from?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, as every decent player should.
Moaning continues after animation clunkiness and hit reg is improved.
you people did the same thing in ns1 with every class... if youre getting owned by one fade then your team is bad and deserves to lose. this thread is about crying because x player cant solo a fade. you shouldnt be able to, thats the point of a team orientated game.
Comments
Nor were jetpacks either if I remember correctly, time was you ran out of jetpack charge pretty fast.
To put this in context, how much damage does a NS2 SG blast deal to fade in the present patch? The machine gun is somewhat similar to NS1 LMG, right?
Also, how does the NS2 armour system work? Is it still 2 points/1 point of carapace?
175/100 is something you could quite comfortable take with 2 shots of NS1 shotgun for example, at least on higher upgrades. That would make fade quite a bit of glass cannon if marines are feeling snap happy with the SGs.
Also, how does the NS2 armour system work? Is it still 2 points/1 point of carapace?
175/100 is something you could quite comfortable take with 2 shots of NS1 shotgun for example, at least on higher upgrades. That would make fade quite a bit of glass cannon if marines are feeling snap happy with the SGs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
IIRC it takes 3 shotgun blasts for the current fade, so that's 1 less. Assuming perfect accuracy and point blank, I guess?
In a game that is team based, allowing one player to completely destroy a entire team is a poorly balanced game. You make the argument that its like sports; since NS2 is a team game I'd use football as a example.. it doesn't matter how freaking good you are you are not going to be able to score touchdowns entirely on your own, while you may have a huge impact its pretty insignificant to the team effort as a whole.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The hyper competitive minority should not be playing with the casual majority. All gamers can be served with one game, they just can't all be playing together. Chess grandmasters are never matched up with complete new comers. That's not fun for anyone, you're right.
Players should be allowed to get better at games. Yes, this means a hard worker would completely and utterly rofl stomp new comers.... if they ever actually play each other and they should never play each other except for novelty or maybe matches amongst friends.
The skill ceiling should be very, very high. So high we won't reach it until NS3 comes out. Otherwise, people WILL discard NS2. NS2 WILL become just another game which the game industry churns out and expects us to play for a year until the next game comes out. We don't want that. We want NS2 to not only be a great game which forever defines the FPS-RTS genre and influences games made a decade from now (like Half Life and Half Life 2 did for FPS), but the greatest FPS-RTS game ever until NS3 comes out and blows NS2 out the water and becomes next greatest FPS-RTS game ever.
The reasons for these desires should be obvious. Great games sell well. Genre defining games usually sell even better until their sequels come out. We want NS2 to sell well and be famous so Unknown Worlds Entertainment's talented and devoted developers can keep making pleasing games.
Of course, we don't want the skill cap to be based on something stupid. Like SC1's terribad UI where only 12 units or one building could be selected simultaneously. That's just an APM tax. It definitely raises the skill cap so only players will enormous effective APM can play competitively, but we don't like it. The things which make NS2's skill cap almost unreachable should be easy to learn and hard to completely master without being routine clicking chores. This means the commanders' macromanagement and micromanagement should be broadly simple but nuanced and complex at closer inspection. The same for every ability of FPS soldiers.
On right-click down, transition into null-space/ghost mode. In this altered form, the fade can move very quickly in any direction. In the ghost-mode, the fade could pass through structures and players. Once the right-click is released, the fade re-appears back into normal-mode. This allows for the player to move in any way they wish. While in ghost-mode, adren would constantly be drained at a certain rate (to be balanced later). If adren hits zero when in ghost-mode, the fade would instantly return to normal-mode.
The only problems with this would be controlling telefragging and the like. This could be remedied by forcing the fade to re-appear in the nearest un-occupied space. That way fades couldn't telefrag or get stuck in structures.
Another alternate idea is to allow momentum to be conserved through a blink. This would be similar to how momentum is conserved through portals in the game Portal. This would allow for some very interesting maneuvers somewhat akin to Bhopping. By blinking into the air, a now falling fade could then blink again while retaining the momentum of falling on exit from the blink. The main problem here is how to control the direction of momentum on blink exit. The momentum of falling is a downward vector, while a fade exiting a blink would most likely want the momentum to be translated into horizontal or even upward movement. I really like this idea because it connects the 'teleporting' blink concept with the 'portal' concept as a way to bend physics beyond what we consider normal.
Less on-topic:
Another idea floods my head....
Maybe an upgraded ability of the fade could be creating small temporary portals connecting different areas of the map. This would be a way for fades to facilitate ambushes and escapes for lerks/skulks/gorges. The portals duration could be linked to the fade's adren. This would force the portal ability to be very short lived.
wut? I guess walking speed is practically nothing compared to teleporting, but still I'm not sure we're thinking about the same thing?
Everything should not be clear after few weeks or months of play, further evolving gameplay is the most beatiful form failing to understand this is everyones own choice but dont let it lessen what a game could possible offer.
15 ENSL seasons say otherwise.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Strategy isn't being more practiced at bunny hopping. Strategy is being being able to outsmart your opponent. If the only way you can considered yourself skilled and beat your opponent is by being better at bunny hopping, then I am sorry.
I've enjoyed my fair share of bunny hopping, but I don't want to see it in future games. Its looks retarded and belongs in the games where it originated. I still enjoy them, but NS2 isn't that "type" of game imo.
I've enjoyed my fair share of bunny hopping, but I don't want to see it in future games. Its looks retarded and belongs in the games where it originated. I still enjoy them, but NS2 isn't that "type" of game imo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bunnyhobbing has nothing to do with strategy, however it is a method how well coordinated skulk ambush actually work it is instant after reaction simply walking or jumping isnt gonna cut it its slow. Like I said simple corner camping or walking straight is not gonna work after few months of play. I certainly you hope arent the type that thinks chuckle or corner peeking / biting is a good way of distraction.
If you truly had your fair share and compare it NS2 walking saying its inferior then you can surely tell method you used to achieve your style of bhob.
ns2 fades don't feel as flexible as ns1 fades. The blink effect is amazing, but two clicks is too much for class that depends on speed, and quickness.
ns2 fades don't feel as flexible as ns1 fades. The blink effect is amazing, but two clicks is too much for class that depends on speed, and quickness.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So why can't you gas and spike with lerk? The JPs aren't HAs. There's also hydras, whips, and if need be, skulks. It's really too soon to say X class or X ability doesn't work when so much of the game is still missing.
i totally agree, much of the game is missing. Though the current fades don't seem as flexible as ns1 fades.
the blink trigger has to change, fades are known for their speed and quickness, now they seem more ground type alien.
Who's with me??
Who's with me??<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
maybe the longer you play the bigger the hat you get, end of the week we compare our sizes.
I agree so much.
I don't like the fade costing 50 resources and being super omega powerful. It's just... dumb. Marines with no equipment shouldn't be allowed a chance against something with 50 resources of equipment, so the fade just ends up getting 50 kills and rofl stomping vanilla marines. Or it dies with 2 kills and is a huge waste of resources. There's no happy medium. Either an entire team is getting thrashed or someone wasted their plasma for the entire game. This is bad. It's all logically consistent, but we don't like the logical conclusions of allowing a 50 resource weapon worth the money at tier 2.
The tier 2 alien classes/abilities should have a less crazy insane cost and be less powerful. The 50 resource cost made sense in NS1. Fades had to be timed to pop out at 4 minutes or whatever. That's great. NS2 is not NS1. Fades require two hives now anyway so the timing is already taken care of. We don't need to follow tortured logic and arrive at an overpowered lifeform any more.
Bacillus is right. I'd like somewhere around 450-500 health and about 35 plasma cost. I know people are going to bring up lerk cost and tell me fades are too powerful to cost only 5 more plasma than lerks. And you know what? You're right! Lerks cost a crazy insane broken amount of money right now and they need to be fixed! <b>Porting over the exact replicas of NS1 lifeforms (costs/ health/ speed/ DPS/ hitbox) to NS2 and using the logic "Well, it worked in NS1" is not logically consistent. NS2 is not NS1. We are not making a modification to NS1. We are making an entirely new game and we need entirely new numbers to go with the entirely different resource model. The old numbers are much too high.</b>
The numbers need to change soon. Either that or we make shotguns cost 20 plasma, grenade launchers and flamethrowers cost 30 plasma, and jetpacks+exo suits cost 20 plasma so every team can feel the extreme bipolar nature of NS2. See? It's balanced that way.
Sigh. I think I'm done. To sum up, NS1 was awesome but flawed and NS2 can and will be better. I normally trust Unknown Worlds Entertainment to safely traverse the incredible landmine field of game balance and come up with something awesome. The extreme lifeform costs make me nervous so I'll rant a bit and hopefully the ranting won't be necessary.
I know for certain there are diehard NS1 fans who cannot conceive any of NS1's (understandable!!!) imperfections, and this is more aimed at increasing the awareness and intelligence of the community so they applaud divergences from NS1 instead of giving knee jerk xenophobic responses (which are valid on some level).
I used to love bhops, concjumps, etc, but they become redundant once the engine can use actual abilities to achieve the same goal. What would be the purpose of bunnyhopping with leap in it's current state, once you have it upgraded it will take you further faster than bhopping could, even without the upgrade it is around the same speed advantage as bhopping unless you have a long clear corridor (which you probably shouldnt sprint down as a skulk anyway).
Anyway back to the fade blink, I don't see what the big issue is with having 2 clicks to blink - if you don't want the time to aim your blink, just double click. It will react exactly as if they only needed you to click once, and should take you almost no time at all between clicks.
There's a lot of good suggestions for how the blink should end up. I just feel no matter how it goes, anything that automatically moves/turns you without any input has no place in a PC game. We need to have a reliable method of determining which way we will face at the end of a blink, to be able to plan in advance.
Personally, when I randomly spin a different way because a marine has walked in as I blinked, or even just misjudged my distance a little, it takes away from the control I have over the game and just leaves me feeling disoriented
Hello.
Maybe every single steam achievement you get for the game can be written on the Hat and so it'll get bigger as you get more....
Anyway serious face: I think that pressing the movement key for the direction you wish to face when coming out of blink would be quite an intuitive way of giving control back to the player and still allowing you to rotate mid blink. (And I still think double tap mini-blinks would be cool/fun and less disorientating).
I hope all the BH discussion won't put off the UWE guy from seeing some of the good ideas in this thread!
It's exactly what I wanted to post. I think it could be great, you could get some speed by chaining blinks and then do a blink-slash-blink attack while "flying" close to marines. It would be more difficult to do that a static blink attack but more efficient. I'm not sure how it should be done but maybe a way to implement it would be simply to add a bit of momentum when you blink (in the current direction) so chaining blinks would result in an exponential speed gain (capped by energy).
I think the teleport itself should give quite a bit accelration, since falling down isn't particularly reliable on cramped spaces, but otherwise it sounds great. The exact rules of momentum preservation and acceleration can be tweaked once the concept is good.
As for the direction controlling, I suggested the ghosting phase before exiting the teleport.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>Possibly make blink less instant.</b> The idea is to give fade more options than to just snap around as fast as it can. For example fade could stay in the blink dimension for a moment if necessary as long as the energy cost is extremely steep. It could be used as last resort survival method or just as a momentarily decoy that allows skulks to move in. All in all, it gives fade more interaction and adren management options.
I think one option would be to add a 'ghost' phase once you've targeted your blink. The fade would disappear and your viewpoint would be at the teleport exit. Then you could quickly aim your teleport exit and possibly even choose the amount of momentum before exiting the teleport phase itself. You could also hang in there at the cost of adren. If necessary, the autoaim can be there too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't get it. You want to make it even more difficult to kill and also cheaper? But in most any game now, everyone ends up having 999 plasma long before the game ends!
I'm not sure whether I understand anything of this either. What I'm mostly trying to do is to put the fade HP into some kind of context I know and not in particular trying to dictate any role for it. If the low HP suits the fade in NS2, by all means make the fade have low HP.
High cost, melee commitment and too low HP seem unfriendly combination for newbies though. A little similar situation as if NS1 lerk didn't have spore to give lerk some steady support ability in addition to the high risk biting. I don't know how UWE intends that.
Cutting the health is an option although I think that relegates the fade to simply being as you said, a glass cannon.
I think adding cooldowns to blink or making it use more energy would be a better solution, possibly you get two blinks in rapid succession before you need five to ten seconds or so to cool down. That should mean you can get in and get out or you can blink, attack, then blink again, but you can't do that constantly, right now the highly spammable teleport makes the fade a bit too hard to pin down.
If a fade uses its blink to close for an attack and to move in combat, it shouldn't also be able to get away instantly. At the moment it requires a rather stupid fade or a lag spike to actually die, because the only threat is two or three marines with shotguns all looking right at you.
I would also like the automatic facing put back in, I liked it in the first version that had it but it doesn't seem to work any more.
It is far easier getting kills as aliens currently than it is as marines, so I am not sure where the argument is coming from?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, as every decent player should.
Moaning continues after animation clunkiness and hit reg is improved.
crying nubs are crying