<!--quoteo(post=1825621:date=Jan 20 2011, 07:26 AM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Jan 20 2011, 07:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1825621"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->TLDR; <i>kinda</i> Gah too much text in this post.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The only difference between what I'm suggesting and the current game is a menu overlayed on top of the RR *after it loads* but before you actually enter it as a playable character. To call this "cumbersome" is quite a stretch - it's 1 additional mouse click on top of the current model. You also claim players will be confused by having to acknowledge they are ready to start playing after they have picked a team, referring to it as "double join" but on the contrary its pretty standard game flow for competitive team-based multiplayer games, as I pointed out.
edit- <!--quoteo(post=1825643:date=Jan 20 2011, 08:27 AM:name=Deadzone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Deadzone @ Jan 20 2011, 08:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1825643"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Seriously Zex, what the hell IS your point by now?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not complicated.
1. the current RR system breaks the fourth wall (confirmed by multiple people) 2. Breaking the fourth wall is okay if it's obviously intentional and fits the tone of the game (it is typically done for humor). I agree to disagree with those who think it fits NS2's tone. 3. In order to avoid breaking the fourth wall (while maintaining chatroom/lobby functionality as requested by multiple people), I suggest the process of entering the RR should include joining a team first and then depicting all players as a part of that team in the RR
And standing in a room with aliens twithout beeing able to attack each other isnt breaking it anymore?
This would need separated RRs.
(Maybe a transport ship, Aliens hide somewhere in the ship and take over the place you are going :P Or an alien ship, i always wondered how kharaa can go from planet to planet (or are they doing it only via parasites or a third race (predators? ^^) like the Aliens aliens?) Or just in a place on the planet/station/ship/(map) etc)
PS: Im pretty sure nothing in this game is breaking the 4th wall.
<!--quoteo(post=1825651:date=Jan 20 2011, 09:20 AM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ Jan 20 2011, 09:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1825651"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And standing in a room with aliens twithout beeing able to attack each other isnt breaking it anymore? This would need separated RRs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1825591:date=Jan 20 2011, 04:37 AM:name=zex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zex @ Jan 20 2011, 04:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1825591"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think you're misunderstanding something about my idea. I'm not saying there need to be two totally different RR's, I'm saying that in the RR, third-person player models should be rendered appropriately (locally) depending on what side the player chooses upon entering the RR. It would be cool if the Alien RR was the same room but covered in infestation, but this could also be accomplished locally given DI implementation. So no, for my idea to work you do not need two RR's per map.
If you still don't understand what I mean, check out the game America's Army: in that game, the player is always playing as a US soldier, his team is always US soldiers, and the players on the other team are always terrists. For the players on the other team, it's the exact same thing - they are playing as Americans against terrists. It's not that they have two maps for every game, it's just a matter of how other players are rendered from any one player's perspective.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
- Ah you want that everybody that picked aliens in the readyroom sees every marine as an alien + the room is infested for them. - While marines see every alien as marine while the room is nice and clean.
Got another idea, the first time a player joins he and everybody else is invisible, so he can pick a side in the ready room and the ugly menu(the purpose why a ready room exists is that we dont need such a menu) isnt needed. After you picked a race and go back into the readyroom its a bit like zex suggested only that the enemy team is just invisible, it even stays true after mapchange but not after you left the server. If you go spectator you come back invisible.
Pretty much work for such a next to useless room you are only in for a few seconds before and after a game^^
Lets just make a Readyroom model or everybody invisible, saves time and money.
<!--quoteo(post=1825646:date=Jan 20 2011, 02:36 AM:name=zex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zex @ Jan 20 2011, 02:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1825646"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1. the current RR system breaks the fourth wall (confirmed by multiple people) 2. Breaking the fourth wall is okay if it's obviously intentional and fits the tone of the game (it is typically done for humor). I agree to disagree with those who think it fits NS2's tone. 3. In order to avoid breaking the fourth wall (while maintaining chatroom/lobby functionality as requested by multiple people), I suggest the process of entering the RR should include joining a team first and then depicting all players as a part of that team in the RR<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No wonder you're never satisfied... you're chasing the wrong problem.
The RR doesn't break the fourth wall, all it does is break the immersion. If it broke the fourth wall, characters would effectively look at the monitor and address the *player* instead of the character he's controlling. (i.e. a marine doesn't see a marine, he sees/talks to a 25-year old Wisconsin resident) In stage acting (where the "fourth wall" name comes from to begin with), breaking the fourth wall is where the characters acknowledge, address, or otherwise interact with the audience. If the game offers a sign for the player's convenience, i.e. Join Aliens, it breaks the fourth wall no more than a menu would. You have to admit that if not a ready room, that some form of menu is required to select a team, server, or game mode. This much is a necessary evil, simply for the game to function.
The RR, by its existence, puts the avatar in a place that can't exist in the context of the game's world. When the player realizes this, the immersion they felt is broken, not the fourth wall. Their "suspension of disbelief," or their ability to "buy into" the game is compromised, because the RR just doesn't make sense.
The RR is not the only thing that breaks such immersion. NS2 by its design breaks immersion in several points. Dead marines miraculously coming to life again with a "swoosh" of an IP, the fact that these marines keep finding themselves playing the same battles over and over again... these are all immersion breakers. Support for Steam's overlay is another huge one. One message and poof, it's gone.
The thing is, multiplayer games like NS2, TF2, the Unreal series, etc, are not designed to be 100% immersive and logical experiences. Gameplay and functionality trump everything, because simply put, it's a game.
All this being said, your argument now has been reduced to personal preference. That preference is that you want to join a team then see everyone in the RR as a member of that team.
However, even IF that preference were to be considered, think of all the inconsistencies. Skulks and marines move at different speeds, and skulks can climb on walls. How would a player in the RR react to a marine climbing on the wall or running around too fast? To the player seeing everyone as a skulk, nothing's wrong. To a player seeing everyone as a marine, things are messed up. Even if the marine player simply didn't see marines going up walls (the model stayed on the ground below the climbing player), what happens when people talk to each other? "lol you're all skulks" "wtf, we're all marines, aren't we?" Boom, confusion results and immersion lost.
<!--quoteo(post=1825660:date=Jan 20 2011, 10:07 AM:name=Deadzone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Deadzone @ Jan 20 2011, 10:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1825660"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The RR doesn't break the fourth wall, all it does is break the immersion. breaking the fourth wall is where the characters acknowledge, address, or otherwise interact with the audience.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You only posted in this thread to flame me personally, and now you're attempting to contribute to the discussion only after I helpfully pointed out to you what i've been saying the whole time... LOL!
Anyway, you're being overly literal and using the classic "theatre" definition that is no longer literally accurate any more than concept of an "uncanny valley" only applying to robotics (google it). In fact we're really saying the same thing - not that the RR literally breaks the fourth wall in the classical theatre sense of the barrier between the stage and the audience, but rather metaphorically in the sense of suspension of disbelief (AKA "immersion," aka the metaphorical barrier between the audience and the media) being violated by something that addresses the player like "hey look at this, you are playing a game right now." See the connection?
Now, when you say "NS2 by its design breaks immersion in several points," it brings up the concept of WILLING suspension of disbelief, which all fiction relies on. The audience willingly ignores the things you posted, because they make the experience more fun and are obviously intentional. But when you have something that seems like it was only done for convenience rather than by design ("the Marine model was the only human model UW made therefore the RR is all Marines and they shouldn't change it because it's too much effort") the audience is less willing to suspend their disbelief because it is insulting to their intelligence - "nobody will notice that this doesn't make sense because its just a game" is not the right impression for a commercial game company to be shooting for.
It's also important to note the difference between this concept, and literal fourth wall breakage like the "welcome to NS2 alpha" signs in the Tram RR, which don't insult your intelligence because it is done with a wink - it's an inside joke (back to my point about tone) or an easter egg for beta testers. It's like the difference between a Mel Brooks comedy where characters address the audience as a gag, versus a student film project where the actors can't stop themselves from glancing at the camera. In the former scenario willing suspension of disbelief isn't broken because the audience is in on the joke. In the latter it is, because it gives the impression of low production values/lack of effort/care in the filming and acting, which the audience isn't willing to ignore simply because they are watching a movie and not real life.
So in conclusion, yes, we are talking about personal preference, but we're also talking about well-established concepts and guidelines in media entertainment generally. This isn't news to me, I've pointed it out several times already. Following these established guidelines, the possible options suggested by myself <i>and others</i> are 1. make the RR more obviously a menu by abstracting it and removing character models entirely, 2. make the fourth-wall breakage in the RR more obviously intentional and comical i.e. by randomizing player models, and 3. the addition of a team select menu system as i described in the last couple of posts. You can tell which one I favor by my posts in support of it, but I've also thrown out support for the other ideas I mentioned even though I don't personally agree with the tone they create.
<!--quoteo(post=1825660:date=Jan 20 2011, 10:07 AM:name=Deadzone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Deadzone @ Jan 20 2011, 10:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1825660"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Skulks and marines move at different speeds, and skulks can climb on walls. How would a player in the RR react to a marine climbing on the wall or running around too fast?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a valid point. I would suggest that movement mechanics be altered in the RR, since it is primarily a 3d menu, making all player speed consistent and making the walls un-climb-able. This also becomes an issue between matches, if everyone spawns in the RR as the character they last played, and someone is i.e. a Lerk flying around. But I think spawning as your last played character between matches is funny enough that it crosses the line into obvious intentionality/inside jokeyness that is not disturbing to willing suspension of disbelief.
<!--quoteo(post=1825664:date=Jan 20 2011, 06:42 AM:name=zex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zex @ Jan 20 2011, 06:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1825664"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You only posted in this thread to flame me personally, and now you're attempting to contribute to the discussion only after I helpfully pointed out to you what i've been saying the whole time... LOL!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Would you rather I continued to flame you? You surprised me by re-explaining everything clearly, which is exactly what I asked for. I responded in kind. I won't apologize for anything because the last 7 pages have been confusing as hell for me.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So in conclusion, yes, we are talking about personal preference, but we're also talking about well-established concepts and guidelines in media entertainment generally. This isn't news to me, I've pointed it out several times already. Following these established guidelines, the possible options suggested by myself <i>and others</i> are 1. make the RR more obviously a menu by abstracting it and removing character models entirely, 2. make the fourth-wall breakage in the RR more obviously intentional and comical i.e. by randomizing player models, and 3. the addition of a team select menu system as i described in the last couple of posts. You can tell which one I favor by my posts in support of it, but I've also thrown out support for the other ideas I mentioned even though I don't personally agree with the tone they create.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
OK, I get what you're saying using immersion/willing suspension of belief as a fourth wall. However, since you're arguing solely based on your personal preference now, instead of any logical reason why the devs benefit from doing it your way, all I can do is offer a counter opinion.
1. I prefer the Ready Room as it is, versus a menu. It adds a great flavor to selecting a team, and combines the functionality of a menu with the social interaction of a lobby. In my opinion, being able to kill two birds with one stone is a good enough reason to leave it in the game. 2. That would work in some games, but an intentional or comical attempt to break the fourth wall does not fit in with the atmosphere of NS2. Something like TF2 or the indie World of Padman, where both have comedy as a rampant theme, would benefit much more from such a style of Ready Room. 3. Well actually you don't have a #3 since it's basically a more detailed rewording of #1. How about you change that #3 to acknowledging that a possible option is to leave the RR in. :D
zex. <!--quoteo(post=1825642:date=Jan 20 2011, 03:25 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jan 20 2011, 03:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1825642"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's not the prologue though. Nothing like it. It's more akin to a cover, or the contents page of an anthology/compilation. You don't need these to enjoy the book. You could very easily have a game of NS where you spawn on a random team, in-game once you join a server, right? Anything else is just extra, and is not part of the actual game: the Ready Room.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
8 pages about the ready room huh. Honestly, 8 pages on something that doesn't even matter. What the hell UWE forums or specifically zex who must be the dumbest person on this forum or a troll.
Comments
The only difference between what I'm suggesting and the current game is a menu overlayed on top of the RR *after it loads* but before you actually enter it as a playable character. To call this "cumbersome" is quite a stretch - it's 1 additional mouse click on top of the current model. You also claim players will be confused by having to acknowledge they are ready to start playing after they have picked a team, referring to it as "double join" but on the contrary its pretty standard game flow for competitive team-based multiplayer games, as I pointed out.
edit-
<!--quoteo(post=1825643:date=Jan 20 2011, 08:27 AM:name=Deadzone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Deadzone @ Jan 20 2011, 08:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1825643"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Seriously Zex, what the hell IS your point by now?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not complicated.
1. the current RR system breaks the fourth wall (confirmed by multiple people)
2. Breaking the fourth wall is okay if it's obviously intentional and fits the tone of the game (it is typically done for humor). I agree to disagree with those who think it fits NS2's tone.
3. In order to avoid breaking the fourth wall (while maintaining chatroom/lobby functionality as requested by multiple people), I suggest the process of entering the RR should include joining a team first and then depicting all players as a part of that team in the RR
This would need separated RRs.
(Maybe a transport ship, Aliens hide somewhere in the ship and take over the place you are going :P
Or an alien ship, i always wondered how kharaa can go from planet to planet (or are they doing it only via parasites or a third race (predators? ^^) like the Aliens aliens?)
Or just in a place on the planet/station/ship/(map) etc)
PS: Im pretty sure nothing in this game is breaking the 4th wall.
<!--quoteo(post=1825591:date=Jan 20 2011, 04:37 AM:name=zex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zex @ Jan 20 2011, 04:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1825591"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think you're misunderstanding something about my idea. I'm not saying there need to be two totally different RR's, I'm saying that in the RR, third-person player models should be rendered appropriately (locally) depending on what side the player chooses upon entering the RR. It would be cool if the Alien RR was the same room but covered in infestation, but this could also be accomplished locally given DI implementation. So no, for my idea to work you do not need two RR's per map.
If you still don't understand what I mean, check out the game America's Army: in that game, the player is always playing as a US soldier, his team is always US soldiers, and the players on the other team are always terrists. For the players on the other team, it's the exact same thing - they are playing as Americans against terrists. It's not that they have two maps for every game, it's just a matter of how other players are rendered from any one player's perspective.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
- While marines see every alien as marine while the room is nice and clean.
Got another idea, the first time a player joins he and everybody else is invisible, so he can pick a side in the ready room and the ugly menu(the purpose why a ready room exists is that we dont need such a menu) isnt needed. After you picked a race and go back into the readyroom its a bit like zex suggested only that the enemy team is just invisible, it even stays true after mapchange but not after you left the server. If you go spectator you come back invisible.
Pretty much work for such a next to useless room you are only in for a few seconds before and after a game^^
Lets just make a Readyroom model or everybody invisible, saves time and money.
2. Breaking the fourth wall is okay if it's obviously intentional and fits the tone of the game (it is typically done for humor). I agree to disagree with those who think it fits NS2's tone.
3. In order to avoid breaking the fourth wall (while maintaining chatroom/lobby functionality as requested by multiple people), I suggest the process of entering the RR should include joining a team first and then depicting all players as a part of that team in the RR<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No wonder you're never satisfied... you're chasing the wrong problem.
The RR doesn't break the fourth wall, all it does is break the immersion. If it broke the fourth wall, characters would effectively look at the monitor and address the *player* instead of the character he's controlling. (i.e. a marine doesn't see a marine, he sees/talks to a 25-year old Wisconsin resident) In stage acting (where the "fourth wall" name comes from to begin with), breaking the fourth wall is where the characters acknowledge, address, or otherwise interact with the audience.
If the game offers a sign for the player's convenience, i.e. Join Aliens, it breaks the fourth wall no more than a menu would. You have to admit that if not a ready room, that some form of menu is required to select a team, server, or game mode. This much is a necessary evil, simply for the game to function.
The RR, by its existence, puts the avatar in a place that can't exist in the context of the game's world. When the player realizes this, the immersion they felt is broken, not the fourth wall. Their "suspension of disbelief," or their ability to "buy into" the game is compromised, because the RR just doesn't make sense.
The RR is not the only thing that breaks such immersion. NS2 by its design breaks immersion in several points. Dead marines miraculously coming to life again with a "swoosh" of an IP, the fact that these marines keep finding themselves playing the same battles over and over again... these are all immersion breakers. Support for Steam's overlay is another huge one. One message and poof, it's gone.
The thing is, multiplayer games like NS2, TF2, the Unreal series, etc, are not designed to be 100% immersive and logical experiences. Gameplay and functionality trump everything, because simply put, it's a game.
All this being said, your argument now has been reduced to personal preference. That preference is that you want to join a team then see everyone in the RR as a member of that team.
However, even IF that preference were to be considered, think of all the inconsistencies. Skulks and marines move at different speeds, and skulks can climb on walls. How would a player in the RR react to a marine climbing on the wall or running around too fast? To the player seeing everyone as a skulk, nothing's wrong. To a player seeing everyone as a marine, things are messed up. Even if the marine player simply didn't see marines going up walls (the model stayed on the ground below the climbing player), what happens when people talk to each other? "lol you're all skulks" "wtf, we're all marines, aren't we?"
Boom, confusion results and immersion lost.
You only posted in this thread to flame me personally, and now you're attempting to contribute to the discussion only after I helpfully pointed out to you what i've been saying the whole time... LOL!
Anyway, you're being overly literal and using the classic "theatre" definition that is no longer literally accurate any more than concept of an "uncanny valley" only applying to robotics (google it). In fact we're really saying the same thing - not that the RR literally breaks the fourth wall in the classical theatre sense of the barrier between the stage and the audience, but rather metaphorically in the sense of suspension of disbelief (AKA "immersion," aka the metaphorical barrier between the audience and the media) being violated by something that addresses the player like "hey look at this, you are playing a game right now." See the connection?
Now, when you say "NS2 by its design breaks immersion in several points," it brings up the concept of WILLING suspension of disbelief, which all fiction relies on. The audience willingly ignores the things you posted, because they make the experience more fun and are obviously intentional. But when you have something that seems like it was only done for convenience rather than by design ("the Marine model was the only human model UW made therefore the RR is all Marines and they shouldn't change it because it's too much effort") the audience is less willing to suspend their disbelief because it is insulting to their intelligence - "nobody will notice that this doesn't make sense because its just a game" is not the right impression for a commercial game company to be shooting for.
It's also important to note the difference between this concept, and literal fourth wall breakage like the "welcome to NS2 alpha" signs in the Tram RR, which don't insult your intelligence because it is done with a wink - it's an inside joke (back to my point about tone) or an easter egg for beta testers. It's like the difference between a Mel Brooks comedy where characters address the audience as a gag, versus a student film project where the actors can't stop themselves from glancing at the camera. In the former scenario willing suspension of disbelief isn't broken because the audience is in on the joke. In the latter it is, because it gives the impression of low production values/lack of effort/care in the filming and acting, which the audience isn't willing to ignore simply because they are watching a movie and not real life.
So in conclusion, yes, we are talking about personal preference, but we're also talking about well-established concepts and guidelines in media entertainment generally. This isn't news to me, I've pointed it out several times already. Following these established guidelines, the possible options suggested by myself <i>and others</i> are 1. make the RR more obviously a menu by abstracting it and removing character models entirely, 2. make the fourth-wall breakage in the RR more obviously intentional and comical i.e. by randomizing player models, and 3. the addition of a team select menu system as i described in the last couple of posts. You can tell which one I favor by my posts in support of it, but I've also thrown out support for the other ideas I mentioned even though I don't personally agree with the tone they create.
This is a valid point. I would suggest that movement mechanics be altered in the RR, since it is primarily a 3d menu, making all player speed consistent and making the walls un-climb-able. This also becomes an issue between matches, if everyone spawns in the RR as the character they last played, and someone is i.e. a Lerk flying around. But I think spawning as your last played character between matches is funny enough that it crosses the line into obvious intentionality/inside jokeyness that is not disturbing to willing suspension of disbelief.
Would you rather I continued to flame you? You surprised me by re-explaining everything clearly, which is exactly what I asked for. I responded in kind. I won't apologize for anything because the last 7 pages have been confusing as hell for me.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So in conclusion, yes, we are talking about personal preference, but we're also talking about well-established concepts and guidelines in media entertainment generally. This isn't news to me, I've pointed it out several times already. Following these established guidelines, the possible options suggested by myself <i>and others</i> are 1. make the RR more obviously a menu by abstracting it and removing character models entirely, 2. make the fourth-wall breakage in the RR more obviously intentional and comical i.e. by randomizing player models, and 3. the addition of a team select menu system as i described in the last couple of posts. You can tell which one I favor by my posts in support of it, but I've also thrown out support for the other ideas I mentioned even though I don't personally agree with the tone they create.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
OK, I get what you're saying using immersion/willing suspension of belief as a fourth wall. However, since you're arguing solely based on your personal preference now, instead of any logical reason why the devs benefit from doing it your way, all I can do is offer a counter opinion.
1. I prefer the Ready Room as it is, versus a menu. It adds a great flavor to selecting a team, and combines the functionality of a menu with the social interaction of a lobby. In my opinion, being able to kill two birds with one stone is a good enough reason to leave it in the game.
2. That would work in some games, but an intentional or comical attempt to break the fourth wall does not fit in with the atmosphere of NS2. Something like TF2 or the indie World of Padman, where both have comedy as a rampant theme, would benefit much more from such a style of Ready Room.
3. Well actually you don't have a #3 since it's basically a more detailed rewording of #1. How about you change that #3 to acknowledging that a possible option is to leave the RR in. :D
<!--quoteo(post=1825642:date=Jan 20 2011, 03:25 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jan 20 2011, 03:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1825642"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's not the prologue though. Nothing like it. It's more akin to a cover, or the contents page of an anthology/compilation. You don't need these to enjoy the book. You could very easily have a game of NS where you spawn on a random team, in-game once you join a server, right? Anything else is just extra, and is not part of the actual game: the Ready Room.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Aren't there better ways to join teams ?
lay off the ready room, anyone who played NS1 will agree its part of the NS universe!