<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What I want to know is how can the incredible lag issues not even be LISTED in the bugs that are being worked on? It doesn't feel any smoother now than when I first got the beta. Do the developers not experience what I'm talking about? I hope I'm not alone in this and if I am, how do I fix it?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I went to midway games in Newcastle a while ago, and they had around 60 - 100 people working on Wheelman. That is for a console with developer support as well.
UWE are producing a game from scratch, engine, editor, everything, with around 7 full time staff.
The code for networking is not separate from the rest of the game, lots of factors effect it. The last patch was explained to be a fix for all the bugs that 166 brought with it, and what you can see currently in the technical list are relevant to lag. Just because it is not listed as 'fix for lag' does not mean it is not relevant.
I don't think we'll really see 'one magical fix'. I think it is something will improve little by little, as it has been doing since alpha release.
<!--quoteo(post=1836928:date=Mar 12 2011, 09:59 PM:name=TreDawg)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TreDawg @ Mar 12 2011, 09:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1836928"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I just want to say how disappointed I've been with NS2 so far. I played NS1 since the beginning, I even showed up at Adrenaline Zone in Boston for the launch party. I had a blast playing on Bast for 3 hours while ninja gorging it up. I was a hardcore NS1 fan for years after that.
I understand that NS2 is still in beta and I understand that beta now a days isn't what it used to mean. I get that NS2 is an incomplete game. However, I can not forgive the fact that no matter how many bugs are fixed it is still a fundamentally broken game. I don't care how long a sound loops or even about the dynamic infestation, as cool as it is. What I care about is being able to actually PLAY the game.
About once a week I log onto NS2 in the hopes that it will be smooth enough to enjoy. Every time I join a server though the lag is so unbearable, even with sub 100 pings, that I just get fed up and leave after about 15 minutes.
What I want to know is how can the incredible lag issues not even be LISTED in the bugs that are being worked on? It doesn't feel any smoother now than when I first got the beta. Do the developers not experience what I'm talking about? I hope I'm not alone in this and if I am, how do I fix it?
For example, earlier today I was trying to kill a marine who was hacking away at one of my resource nodes with a knife. I was a fade and I just wanted to walk over and kill him, seemed like a pretty easy task, fade vs knife. When I went to fight the enemy the lag was so bad that myself and the marine just kept teleporting around the node and I don't even know if I hit him once even though on my screen I "hit" him about 20 times before he just casually walked out of the room, still holding the knife. I couldn't chase after him because I was still lagging so bad that I couldn't walk down the stairs without hitting the railing and getting teleported back next to the resource node.
During this whole scenario my ping was going back and forth between 100 and 120. Not bad at all. I used to play tribes on 200+ ping and never experienced lag like this. My connection is also very good, I have 25/25 fios and usually get pings lower than 40 in most games.
Sorry for the long post but I really do love NS and I want NS2 to be good but I just can't get over how frustrating not being able to walk around without jumping/stuttering/teleporting is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't get that much lag/fps lag that anymore. I have seen a GREAT improvement in FPS and laggyness since the Engine Test. Right at the start of Beta it was unplayable for me but in the currently build it is great (I did get another graphics card though but mostly the lag issues are ram and processor based). The lag is also not up on the progress list because all of the things up there contribute to the lag. For example: Sorting out Whip walking will also fix the lag. Optimizing Hydras will also fix the lag and so on and so forth.
You posted a rather long post just to say "I am unhappy about the progress of NS2 because I get a lot of lag and fps lag". Choose a good server that you like to go on most often. The server I choose are either 'NS2UK' or 'ArmouryChamber' I find these ones the best as I get a good connection and I do not notice any lag. The only lag I get is when there are 100 hydras placed all over the map and the Aliens are dominating with DI.
They have a person working on optimizing the lag and everything with every build but they are just bringing out prototypes of things to make us excited and happy about the Progress of NS2. I like this as it gives me something to look forward to with every build (Can't wait for better wall walking and Onos :D)
<!--quoteo(post=1836937:date=Mar 13 2011, 01:50 AM:name=Papayas)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Papayas @ Mar 13 2011, 01:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1836937"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You posted a rather long post just to say "I am unhappy about the progress of NS2 because I get a lot of lag and fps lag".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I figured posting "###### BROKEN FIX IT!" without any sort of explanation or backstory would just result in my post getting ignored. Also, just to clarify, I experience absolutely no FPS lag. I've had a powerful enough PC since the launch of the beta that low FPS has never been a problem. All of the problems I've experienced are related ONLY to network lag.
I haven't found a single stable server. I've never joined ANY server without it lagging like crazy after I join a team. EVERY server I've joined has had INSANE lag problems, it seems like my ping is largely irrelevant in all the lag as it never spikes to something crazy when all the problems occur. It stays the same +/-20ms.
It reminds me a lot of rate issues I would run into back in the CS betas where even though the ping was low things like packet loss were high.
All of the Technical issues on the tracker right now are about fixing the performance problems. There's nothing "fundamentally broken" about it, it's simply a mix of bugs and inefficiency that will be fixed sooner or later.
The reason there isn't a 'fix lag' problem is because there isn't a 'make the game lag' variable that the devs just have to change from 1 to 0 in order to fix it.
Task trackers are so people know what to do, it's no use telling max to 'fix the lag, due date: before release'. Telling him 'this bit of code is inefficient, make it more streamlined by tuesday, then move onto reworking the hit detection code so that it registers hits better, by friday' and so on will allow people to make progress, and most importantly, get the entire team working. That's what trackers are for, organising multiple people so they all have something to do.
<!--quoteo(post=1836932:date=Mar 12 2011, 11:57 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Mar 12 2011, 11:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1836932"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Because it's not a single issue. Everything under Technical is related to lag. Also, find better servers, I've played stable 20-player games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually what he talks about is a low server-tickrate, which leads to lag\warping\terrible hit-reg. I'd have to yet again point to Lua as being primarily responsible for that (good performance for a scripting-language, but terrible for what it's being used for). The good news is that the first three (or rather two) items on the technical pivotal-tracker are directly related to further optimizing Lua to deal with this.
As for good 20-player games, I certainly haven't seen them. Maybe by stable you mean not crashing, but with tickrates below 10, it isn't playable by a long shot (if you're coming from proper games ea. CS:S\TF2\CoD et cetera).
<!--QuoteBegin-'Zek'+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ('Zek')</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There's nothing "fundamentally broken" about it<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Like I mentioned, they gambled by going with Lua, and it will be interesting to see if they can get performance to a high enough level (if they can't, we'd be talking about something "fundamentally broken"). Fortunatly there's still room for improvement (some of which are already on the pivotal-tracker). I'd also like to see some multi-threading, which is inherintly difficult to do in Lua, but possible with the assistance of the Spark-engine.
I occasionally got alien sounds when clicking on structures. Clicked on a power node and heard the drifter select. But def can hear alien sounds again.
<!--quoteo(post=1836952:date=Mar 13 2011, 10:41 AM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Mar 13 2011, 10:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1836952"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Actually what he talks about is a low server-tickrate, which leads to lag\warping\terrible hit-reg.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes...? <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As for good 20-player games, I certainly haven't seen them. Maybe by stable you mean not crashing, but with tickrates below 10, it isn't playable by a long shot (if you're coming from proper games ea. CS:S\TF2\CoD et cetera).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't remember what the tickrate was, but compared to the stereotypical NS2 experience it was as smooth as silk.
<!--quoteo(post=1836955:date=Mar 13 2011, 12:00 PM:name=measles)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (measles @ Mar 13 2011, 12:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1836955"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Is anybody else getting random command messages from the other side?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Since forever, though not as often as very early builds.
<!--QuoteBegin-'Align'+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ('Align')</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Because it's not a single issue<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin-'player'+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ('player')</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->low server-tickrate<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It is a single issue, massive single-threaded CPU-load leading to a myriad of symptoms, including but not limited to: bad hit-reg, warping, 'lost' data-packets, unresponsive units, and indeed a higher likelyhood of crashing (this goes for clients too).
Obviously there are more issues, but if this one thing is fixed we'd see the number of complaints go right down.
<!--QuoteBegin-'Align'+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ('Align')</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't remember what the tickrate was, but compared to the stereotypical NS2 experience it was as smooth as silk.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> All good and nice but as long as the performance in absolutes is terrible in comparison to other games, the influx of disappointed gamers isn't going to diminish, so exclaiming how much worse it was in the past is pretty pointless.
InsaneAnomalyJoin Date: 2002-05-13Member: 605Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts, Future Perfect Developer
edited March 2011
<!--quoteo(post=1836928:date=Mar 12 2011, 09:59 PM:name=TreDawg)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TreDawg @ Mar 12 2011, 09:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1836928"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What I want to know is how can the incredible lag issues not even be LISTED in the bugs that are being worked on? It doesn't feel any smoother now than when I first got the beta. Do the developers not experience what I'm talking about? I hope I'm not alone in this and if I am, how do I fix it?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because there isn't just one "lag" bug. Having a task saying "fix the lag" in the task tracker would be about as useful as having one saying "make the game good and release it". We use pivotal to track specific, individual tasks and the work that's being done on them. Lag issues are caused by a combination of factors, and it's those issues that get listed in the tracker.
<!--quoteo(post=1836962:date=Mar 13 2011, 01:00 PM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Mar 13 2011, 01:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1836962"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->All good and nice but as long as the performance in absolutes is terrible in comparison to other games, the influx of disappointed gamers isn't going to diminish, so exclaiming how much worse it was in the past is pretty pointless.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, no matter how ambitious and impressive NS2 is considering the dev team size, I think the game is still only judged by the value the game provides for gamer. If a mainstream game can provide more satisfying gaming experience I might as well buy that instead.
---
As for the Lua talk, any idea how the Far Cry series games have handled the Lua downsides? I can find a dozen confirmations on them being Lua-scripted, but very few details on the implementation and amount of Lua involved.
Every server I have played on since (I think) 166 has always had really high tickrates. That is no longer a problem. The kind of lag I get now is unrelated to tickrate, ping or FPS.
I have also got the sound issues mentioned here, namely hearing sounds meant for the other commander. Last example was me hearing that we need more resources from the alien narrator, whilst I was a marine near central hive on Rockdown.
<!--quoteo(post=1836978:date=Mar 13 2011, 04:45 PM:name=Skiddywinks)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Skiddywinks @ Mar 13 2011, 04:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1836978"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Every server I have played on since (I think) 166 has always had really high tickrates. That is no longer a problem. The kind of lag I get now is unrelated to tickrate, ping or FPS.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You're taking the piss, what kind of tickrates have you been playing on? When games progress and DI is starting to get abundant the tickrate goes right down to in the area of 3-8, at which point it becomes unplayable for everyone but the marines (client-side hit-registration) and commanders. The tickrate should be at least 20 to 30 for a decent game to take place. When I say decent, I mean decent, not the "gosh NS2 hasn't completely crapped out on me yet, what a fantastic game I'm having"-syndrome.
<!--quoteo(post=1836955:date=Mar 13 2011, 05:00 AM:name=measles)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (measles @ Mar 13 2011, 05:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1836955"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><u>On the sound issues</u>
Is anybody else getting random command messages from the other side? <b>(No, I'm not talking about Jesus)</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I read that last line while taking a sip of hot tea and it ended up coming out of my nose. Remind me why the nasal cavity needs so many nerve endings?
Regarding the lag issues:
Nobody will argue against the fact that a game with 10+ players, a map full of DI and 10+ entities in each tech point experiences a slow down. On my end, that is 100% due to the tick and update rate coming from the server.
With my i7 950/6G RAM/470 GTX/Win7 x64 I maintain 40-45 FPS and have seen no client-side stressing since probably 166 With my P4 3.06GHz/4G/460 GTX/WinXP x32, the game is JUST playable on the worst possible video settings, but I wouldn't ask anyone to struggle through it
The debate is all over the place, but I think player is saying it more clearly than anyone. The beta would get more play time if the perceived "lag" was improved, due to greater player retention. Most of the people drawn to this type of game are in search of instant gratification and are too impatient to deal with anything less than instant response from a game.
I understand implementing new features could undo any optimization done at this time, but surely there is something that some time could be invested in to give even a 10-20% improvement in server performance. I'd rather have a higher player count (and thus more servers to choose from) than the Onos or Exosuit at this point . Based on the comments from some of the server operators about CPU load, I'm willing to bet that a deeper look into server behavior would reveal that something fairly simple is at fault for the server load.
Regarding the sound:
I'm also hearing mismatched/inappropriate sound effects in this version. MINOR issue, though, compared to having no sound. Slightly different, but related topic, Is it a map deficiency or incomplete code that allows us to hear through walls? In Rockdown for instance, standing in Marine Start, you can hear (through the back wall) what is going on in Central and Aux. My game play relies on audio cues and it's very disorienting for me when the sound bleed happens.
<!--quoteo(post=1836978:date=Mar 13 2011, 09:45 AM:name=Skiddywinks)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Skiddywinks @ Mar 13 2011, 09:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1836978"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Every server I have played on since (I think) 166 has always had really high tickrates. That is no longer a problem. The kind of lag I get now is unrelated to tickrate, ping or FPS.
I have also got the sound issues mentioned here, namely hearing sounds meant for the other commander. Last example was me hearing that we need more resources from the alien narrator, whilst I was a marine near central hive on Rockdown.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think you're confused. You're saying your server updates are high, your latency is low and your FPS are high, yet you still cannot play. What you're otherwise describing is exactly what happens when your client is not getting adequate updates from the server.
Give us a screenshot that clearly shows a server with "really high tickrates" that is at mid-game with DI over half the map and with 10 players or more.
<!--quoteo(post=1836962:date=Mar 13 2011, 01:00 PM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Mar 13 2011, 01:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1836962"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It is a single issue, massive single-threaded CPU-load leading to a myriad of symptoms<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, but that's still a blanket term, like "lag" is.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->All good and nice but as long as the performance in absolutes is terrible in comparison to other games, the influx of disappointed gamers isn't going to diminish, so exclaiming how much worse it was in the past is pretty pointless.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sure, but this particular guy was saying the performance was just as bad as ever, which is just not true.
<!--quoteo(post=1836965:date=Mar 13 2011, 01:59 PM:name=Insane)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Insane @ Mar 13 2011, 01:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1836965"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Because there isn't just one "lag" bug. Having a task saying "fix the lag" in the task tracker would be about as useful as having one saying "make the game good and release it". We use pivotal to track specific, individual tasks and the work that's being done on them. Lag issues are caused by a combination of factors, and it's those issues that get listed in the tracker.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok, thanks for clarifying. I'm not sure how anyone looking at the list of bugs is supposed to divine that information though. It seems like a lot of people are trying to ###### on me for making judgements based purely on what is listed like I should have had some behind the scenes knowledge of what was causing it.
There is no way for me to look at "Integrate Lua binding layer into the game" and know from reading that description what implementing that fix will do. I don't have the same insight as a developer or a programmer. I just see a list of things that are being worked on and didn't see a single one saying that it would or might alleviate the lag problems I'm experiencing so as far as I knew it wasn't even acknowledged, let alone being worked on.
If you were experiencing horrific lag problems in a beta and it wasn't acknowledged in plain english in the list of bugs, wouldn't you be a little concerned?
Also, if it has improved, even marginally, since the beta's launch, I can't tell the difference.
*EDIT* as a side note, when I'm commanding as an alien and I use hotkeys (CTRL + #) to recall a selection the camera always goes to a seemingly random place on the map and doesn't go at all to where I selected. The menu in the bottom right is correct though. I have no idea if this problem happens in marine comm as I just haven't tried it.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Gameplay task Skulks can fly has appeared with status Delivered<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I take it this means you fixed the bug, and have not made it work better (as the name suggests). If so, this makes me sad :P, I liked to fly around suprising people so much that they dont fire at me immediatelly xD.
<!--quoteo(post=1834980:date=Feb 25 2011, 02:32 PM:name=Dank McShwagger)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dank McShwagger @ Feb 25 2011, 02:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1834980"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->speak for yourself. I prefer the AvP method of wall/ceiling walking. i find it much more immersive and much easier to control.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed, i never had a problem with it back in AVP2. The ability to see the ceiling at the bottom of your monitor actually increases the immersion.
NS2 definitely could benefit from copying that games "wall-walking" button approach, where you must keep the key held down to stay attached to the surface. I can recall times playing that old game where i was racing at a marine, with wall-grab key down, and was able to strafe right to get on a wall [to mess with his aim as i closed the distance] (without stopping my run) and eventually, strafing off the wall and killing him... one fluid act that is impossible in NS2. AVP-games PERFECTED wall-running IMHO. In NS2 i'm afraid to move forward in fear of falling off... doesn't matter how much improved the automatic wall-stick gets.
InsaneAnomalyJoin Date: 2002-05-13Member: 605Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts, Future Perfect Developer
<!--quoteo(post=1837035:date=Mar 14 2011, 12:10 AM:name=TreDawg)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TreDawg @ Mar 14 2011, 12:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1837035"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ok, thanks for clarifying. I'm not sure how anyone looking at the list of bugs is supposed to divine that information though. It seems like a lot of people are trying to ###### on me for making judgements based purely on what is listed like I should have had some behind the scenes knowledge of what was causing it.
There is no way for me to look at "Integrate Lua binding layer into the game" and know from reading that description what implementing that fix will do. I don't have the same insight as a developer or a programmer. I just see a list of things that are being worked on and didn't see a single one saying that it would or might alleviate the lag problems I'm experiencing so as far as I knew it wasn't even acknowledged, let alone being worked on.
If you were experiencing horrific lag problems in a beta and it wasn't acknowledged in plain english in the list of bugs, wouldn't you be a little concerned?
Also, if it has improved, even marginally, since the beta's launch, I can't tell the difference.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I understand your confusion, and I think part of it comes down to not being 100% clear on how the tracker works. It isn't a public progress tracker, what we've done is literally made our bug tracking system visible to everyone. So while it lets us show peope what we're currently working on, each item on the list is really intended for a developer's eyes, in order to let them know what they have to do. We've tried to keep people aware through other means that we're cracking down on lag issues, but we can't really put "we're fixing lag" on Pivotal, because that would involve a heavy shift in how we track and complete tasks and bugfixes.
I appreciate that it wasn't initally clear to you, but hopefully I've been able to dispel some of your fears that we're not making this a priority.
<!--quoteo(post=1837075:date=Mar 14 2011, 03:19 PM:name=Insane)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Insane @ Mar 14 2011, 03:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1837075"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I appreciate that it wasn't initally clear to you, but hopefully I've been able to dispel some of your fears that we're not making this a priority.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, definitely. I guess I'll just continue checking back on the game every once in a while.
I still think that its just packet loss and that the server isn't sending out enough information at once though. Based on the symptoms I'm having it feels like it is just a rates issues which doesn't seem that difficult to solve.
indeed poor aliens. At current rate, every alien will have to go onos to win, because aliens tier 2 extremely weak against marines tier 2, so aliens would need tier 3 (onos) but once marines get tier 3, what then? I keep telling myself, beta beta beta.
<!--quoteo(post=1837263:date=Mar 15 2011, 02:11 PM:name=luns)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (luns @ Mar 15 2011, 02:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1837263"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->indeed poor aliens. At current rate, every alien will have to go onos to win, because aliens tier 2 extremely weak against marines tier 2, so aliens would need tier 3 (onos) but once marines get tier 3, what then? I keep telling myself, beta beta beta.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i hear you, i just hope things like babblers and web and bombard and the shift and shade come out very strong. i feel like the fade was the backbone of the alien team in ns1 and i don't think the ns2 fade can fill that role currently.
That's not necessarily a bad thing, it'd be nice to see the abilities of units a little more leveled out instead of the end-all uber all-purpose killing machine the fade was back in NS1. The fade just really needs a buff right now...
a buff can include and not limited to: better blink system, increased hitbox range, and redesigned secondary attack. Also alien armor upgrades doesn't really do much, I doubt it even works if it does it surely not doing its job.
I think that the worries about the Fade are a good thing. It means that it is not the dominating class it never should have been. I do feel however that the secondary could be much more inspired though. The unique attacks of each alien are great, but the secondary attack for the Fade only leaves so much for the imagination in terms of offence - comparative to the primary attack.
It is exactly like the Focus upgrade in NS1, and this was under used and essentially useless. Yeah, you could get a kill in one bite. But this was offset by the fact that you attack half as fast, so essentially you are doing the same damage. Especially when it comes to larger and stronger units or on structures, it makes no difference.
In NS1 it was far too powerful, and the Onos whilst tough was too big a target and too slow to get away comparative to its effective use.
Personally I'd really like to see something a little more special for the secondary attack for the Fade. Something that added to the whole 'Fade experience' of blinking around the map and the stealth class it is destined to be. Perhaps some sort of movement based attack - perhaps a huge energy draining instant attack, that blinks you to the location, attacks, and then instantly blinks you back to your original location. I don't know?
As for the Onos, I hope it to be everything it should be. Like a Rhino running through a crowd of people.
QuovatisTeam InversionJoin Date: 2010-01-26Member: 70321Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
Yeah, alien armor upgrades currently do not work. They should just disable it right now so alien commanders stop wasting res on it.
I think one big problem right now is resource balance issues. Marines can pretty easily afford a shotgun after every spawn, whereas in NS1 shotguns were fairly rare. In NS2, aliens get TONS of personal res and can never use it all...I routinely have 300+ res by the end of the game. The only way to spend it all is to hydra spam, and hydras are pretty worthless as is unless you spam them, which doesn't help either. I'm sure this will all be addressed later in development, but it's frustrating right now.
<!--quoteo(post=1837269:date=Mar 15 2011, 08:44 PM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Mar 15 2011, 08:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1837269"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think that the worries about the Fade are a good thing. It means that it is not the dominating class it never should have been. I do feel however that the secondary could be much more inspired though. The unique attacks of each alien are great, but the secondary attack for the Fade only leaves so much for the imagination in terms of offence - comparative to the primary attack.
It is exactly like the Focus upgrade in NS1, and this was under used and essentially useless. Yeah, you could get a kill in one bite. But this was offset by the fact that you attack half as fast, so essentially you are doing the same damage. Especially when it comes to larger and stronger units or on structures, it makes no difference.
In NS1 it was far too powerful, and the Onos whilst tough was too big a target and too slow to get away comparative to its effective use.
Personally I'd really like to see something a little more special for the secondary attack for the Fade. Something that added to the whole 'Fade experience' of blinking around the map and the stealth class it is destined to be. Perhaps some sort of movement based attack - perhaps a huge energy draining instant attack, that blinks you to the location, attacks, and then instantly blinks you back to your original location. I don't know?
As for the Onos, I hope it to be everything it should be. Like a Rhino running through a crowd of people.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
actually secondary attack is a backward focus attack. Rather than instantly attack, your attacked is slowed, to be correct, its a nerfed version of the focus attack. Since the only way secondary attack would work on the marine if he actually stood still, while focus can be an instant attack, big difference here. Others, and me including have offered why not make secondary attack instant attack with short delay, to actually be the focus attack rather then the current version.
as for you saying, "It means that it is not the dominating class it never should have been. " seriously dude? its battlefield class, which is now being reduced to chasing marines on foot, which can be kitted by sprinting marines, I know because I've done this, its pitiful.
If you knew how to aim fade's weren't that powerful, sure you might not SOLO the fade which is more what you saying, but good squad of marines would kill the fade easily. I think you must of played too many combat maps where fades were level 30 or more, in a normal NS game, fades weren't as powerful as you think. You need to learn to travel in squads. Unlike right now, marines can solo the fade easily, which should make those with bad aim happy.
as for the onos comment, if things don't change with the fade, in endgame fights aliens will need every alien to be onos. Since fades can't catch moving targets, they're useless. right now the fade is a mini-onos actually.
Comments
I went to midway games in Newcastle a while ago, and they had around 60 - 100 people working on Wheelman. That is for a console with developer support as well.
UWE are producing a game from scratch, engine, editor, everything, with around 7 full time staff.
The code for networking is not separate from the rest of the game, lots of factors effect it. The last patch was explained to be a fix for all the bugs that 166 brought with it, and what you can see currently in the technical list are relevant to lag. Just because it is not listed as 'fix for lag' does not mean it is not relevant.
I don't think we'll really see 'one magical fix'. I think it is something will improve little by little, as it has been doing since alpha release.
I understand that NS2 is still in beta and I understand that beta now a days isn't what it used to mean. I get that NS2 is an incomplete game. However, I can not forgive the fact that no matter how many bugs are fixed it is still a fundamentally broken game. I don't care how long a sound loops or even about the dynamic infestation, as cool as it is. What I care about is being able to actually PLAY the game.
About once a week I log onto NS2 in the hopes that it will be smooth enough to enjoy. Every time I join a server though the lag is so unbearable, even with sub 100 pings, that I just get fed up and leave after about 15 minutes.
What I want to know is how can the incredible lag issues not even be LISTED in the bugs that are being worked on? It doesn't feel any smoother now than when I first got the beta. Do the developers not experience what I'm talking about? I hope I'm not alone in this and if I am, how do I fix it?
For example, earlier today I was trying to kill a marine who was hacking away at one of my resource nodes with a knife. I was a fade and I just wanted to walk over and kill him, seemed like a pretty easy task, fade vs knife. When I went to fight the enemy the lag was so bad that myself and the marine just kept teleporting around the node and I don't even know if I hit him once even though on my screen I "hit" him about 20 times before he just casually walked out of the room, still holding the knife. I couldn't chase after him because I was still lagging so bad that I couldn't walk down the stairs without hitting the railing and getting teleported back next to the resource node.
During this whole scenario my ping was going back and forth between 100 and 120. Not bad at all. I used to play tribes on 200+ ping and never experienced lag like this. My connection is also very good, I have 25/25 fios and usually get pings lower than 40 in most games.
Sorry for the long post but I really do love NS and I want NS2 to be good but I just can't get over how frustrating not being able to walk around without jumping/stuttering/teleporting is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't get that much lag/fps lag that anymore. I have seen a GREAT improvement in FPS and laggyness since the Engine Test. Right at the start of Beta it was unplayable for me but in the currently build it is great (I did get another graphics card though but mostly the lag issues are ram and processor based). The lag is also not up on the progress list because all of the things up there contribute to the lag. For example: Sorting out Whip walking will also fix the lag. Optimizing Hydras will also fix the lag and so on and so forth.
You posted a rather long post just to say "I am unhappy about the progress of NS2 because I get a lot of lag and fps lag". Choose a good server that you like to go on most often. The server I choose are either 'NS2UK' or 'ArmouryChamber' I find these ones the best as I get a good connection and I do not notice any lag. The only lag I get is when there are 100 hydras placed all over the map and the Aliens are dominating with DI.
They have a person working on optimizing the lag and everything with every build but they are just bringing out prototypes of things to make us excited and happy about the Progress of NS2. I like this as it gives me something to look forward to with every build (Can't wait for better wall walking and Onos :D)
I figured posting "###### BROKEN FIX IT!" without any sort of explanation or backstory would just result in my post getting ignored. Also, just to clarify, I experience absolutely no FPS lag. I've had a powerful enough PC since the launch of the beta that low FPS has never been a problem. All of the problems I've experienced are related ONLY to network lag.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, find better servers, I've played stable 20-player games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I haven't found a single stable server. I've never joined ANY server without it lagging like crazy after I join a team. EVERY server I've joined has had INSANE lag problems, it seems like my ping is largely irrelevant in all the lag as it never spikes to something crazy when all the problems occur. It stays the same +/-20ms.
It reminds me a lot of rate issues I would run into back in the CS betas where even though the ping was low things like packet loss were high.
Task trackers are so people know what to do, it's no use telling max to 'fix the lag, due date: before release'. Telling him 'this bit of code is inefficient, make it more streamlined by tuesday, then move onto reworking the hit detection code so that it registers hits better, by friday' and so on will allow people to make progress, and most importantly, get the entire team working. That's what trackers are for, organising multiple people so they all have something to do.
Also, find better servers, I've played stable 20-player games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually what he talks about is a low server-tickrate, which leads to lag\warping\terrible hit-reg. I'd have to yet again point to Lua as being primarily responsible for that (good performance for a scripting-language, but terrible for what it's being used for). The good news is that the first three (or rather two) items on the technical pivotal-tracker are directly related to further optimizing Lua to deal with this.
As for good 20-player games, I certainly haven't seen them. Maybe by stable you mean not crashing, but with tickrates below 10, it isn't playable by a long shot (if you're coming from proper games ea. CS:S\TF2\CoD et cetera).
<!--QuoteBegin-'Zek'+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ('Zek')</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There's nothing "fundamentally broken" about it<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Like I mentioned, they gambled by going with Lua, and it will be interesting to see if they can get performance to a high enough level (if they can't, we'd be talking about something "fundamentally broken"). Fortunatly there's still room for improvement (some of which are already on the pivotal-tracker). I'd also like to see some multi-threading, which is inherintly difficult to do in Lua, but possible with the assistance of the Spark-engine.
Is anybody else getting random command messages from the other side?
(No, I'm not talking about Jesus)
Yes...?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As for good 20-player games, I certainly haven't seen them. Maybe by stable you mean not crashing, but with tickrates below 10, it isn't playable by a long shot (if you're coming from proper games ea. CS:S\TF2\CoD et cetera).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't remember what the tickrate was, but compared to the stereotypical NS2 experience it was as smooth as silk.
Since forever, though not as often as very early builds.
<!--QuoteBegin-'Align'+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ('Align')</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Because it's not a single issue<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-'player'+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ('player')</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->low server-tickrate<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is a single issue, massive single-threaded CPU-load leading to a myriad of symptoms, including but not limited to: bad hit-reg, warping, 'lost' data-packets, unresponsive units, and indeed a higher likelyhood of crashing (this goes for clients too).
Obviously there are more issues, but if this one thing is fixed we'd see the number of complaints go right down.
<!--QuoteBegin-'Align'+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ('Align')</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't remember what the tickrate was, but compared to the stereotypical NS2 experience it was as smooth as silk.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
All good and nice but as long as the performance in absolutes is terrible in comparison to other games, the influx of disappointed gamers isn't going to diminish, so exclaiming how much worse it was in the past is pretty pointless.
Because there isn't just one "lag" bug. Having a task saying "fix the lag" in the task tracker would be about as useful as having one saying "make the game good and release it". We use pivotal to track specific, individual tasks and the work that's being done on them. Lag issues are caused by a combination of factors, and it's those issues that get listed in the tracker.
Yeah, no matter how ambitious and impressive NS2 is considering the dev team size, I think the game is still only judged by the value the game provides for gamer. If a mainstream game can provide more satisfying gaming experience I might as well buy that instead.
---
As for the Lua talk, any idea how the Far Cry series games have handled the Lua downsides? I can find a dozen confirmations on them being Lua-scripted, but very few details on the implementation and amount of Lua involved.
I have also got the sound issues mentioned here, namely hearing sounds meant for the other commander. Last example was me hearing that we need more resources from the alien narrator, whilst I was a marine near central hive on Rockdown.
You're taking the piss, what kind of tickrates have you been playing on? When games progress and DI is starting to get abundant the tickrate goes right down to in the area of 3-8, at which point it becomes unplayable for everyone but the marines (client-side hit-registration) and commanders. The tickrate should be at least 20 to 30 for a decent game to take place. When I say decent, I mean decent, not the "gosh NS2 hasn't completely crapped out on me yet, what a fantastic game I'm having"-syndrome.
Is anybody else getting random command messages from the other side?
<b>(No, I'm not talking about Jesus)</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I read that last line while taking a sip of hot tea and it ended up coming out of my nose. Remind me why the nasal cavity needs so many nerve endings?
Regarding the lag issues:
Nobody will argue against the fact that a game with 10+ players, a map full of DI and 10+ entities in each tech point experiences a slow down. On my end, that is 100% due to the tick and update rate coming from the server.
With my i7 950/6G RAM/470 GTX/Win7 x64 I maintain 40-45 FPS and have seen no client-side stressing since probably 166
With my P4 3.06GHz/4G/460 GTX/WinXP x32, the game is JUST playable on the worst possible video settings, but I wouldn't ask anyone to struggle through it
The debate is all over the place, but I think player is saying it more clearly than anyone. The beta would get more play time if the perceived "lag" was improved, due to greater player retention. Most of the people drawn to this type of game are in search of instant gratification and are too impatient to deal with anything less than instant response from a game.
I understand implementing new features could undo any optimization done at this time, but surely there is something that some time could be invested in to give even a 10-20% improvement in server performance. I'd rather have a higher player count (and thus more servers to choose from) than the Onos or Exosuit at this point . Based on the comments from some of the server operators about CPU load, I'm willing to bet that a deeper look into server behavior would reveal that something fairly simple is at fault for the server load.
Regarding the sound:
I'm also hearing mismatched/inappropriate sound effects in this version. MINOR issue, though, compared to having no sound. Slightly different, but related topic, Is it a map deficiency or incomplete code that allows us to hear through walls? In Rockdown for instance, standing in Marine Start, you can hear (through the back wall) what is going on in Central and Aux. My game play relies on audio cues and it's very disorienting for me when the sound bleed happens.
I have also got the sound issues mentioned here, namely hearing sounds meant for the other commander. Last example was me hearing that we need more resources from the alien narrator, whilst I was a marine near central hive on Rockdown.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think you're confused. You're saying your server updates are high, your latency is low and your FPS are high, yet you still cannot play. What you're otherwise describing is exactly what happens when your client is not getting adequate updates from the server.
Give us a screenshot that clearly shows a server with "really high tickrates" that is at mid-game with DI over half the map and with 10 players or more.
Yeah, but that's still a blanket term, like "lag" is.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->All good and nice but as long as the performance in absolutes is terrible in comparison to other games, the influx of disappointed gamers isn't going to diminish, so exclaiming how much worse it was in the past is pretty pointless.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sure, but this particular guy was saying the performance was just as bad as ever, which is just not true.
Ok, thanks for clarifying. I'm not sure how anyone looking at the list of bugs is supposed to divine that information though. It seems like a lot of people are trying to ###### on me for making judgements based purely on what is listed like I should have had some behind the scenes knowledge of what was causing it.
There is no way for me to look at "Integrate Lua binding layer into the game" and know from reading that description what implementing that fix will do. I don't have the same insight as a developer or a programmer. I just see a list of things that are being worked on and didn't see a single one saying that it would or might alleviate the lag problems I'm experiencing so as far as I knew it wasn't even acknowledged, let alone being worked on.
If you were experiencing horrific lag problems in a beta and it wasn't acknowledged in plain english in the list of bugs, wouldn't you be a little concerned?
Also, if it has improved, even marginally, since the beta's launch, I can't tell the difference.
*EDIT* as a side note, when I'm commanding as an alien and I use hotkeys (CTRL + #) to recall a selection the camera always goes to a seemingly random place on the map and doesn't go at all to where I selected. The menu in the bottom right is correct though. I have no idea if this problem happens in marine comm as I just haven't tried it.
I take it this means you fixed the bug, and have not made it work better (as the name suggests).
If so, this makes me sad :P, I liked to fly around suprising people so much that they dont fire at me immediatelly xD.
Agreed, i never had a problem with it back in AVP2. The ability to see the ceiling at the bottom of your monitor actually increases the immersion.
NS2 definitely could benefit from copying that games "wall-walking" button approach, where you must keep the key held down to stay attached to the surface. I can recall times playing that old game where i was racing at a marine, with wall-grab key down, and was able to strafe right to get on a wall [to mess with his aim as i closed the distance] (without stopping my run) and eventually, strafing off the wall and killing him... one fluid act that is impossible in NS2. AVP-games PERFECTED wall-running IMHO. In NS2 i'm afraid to move forward in fear of falling off... doesn't matter how much improved the automatic wall-stick gets.
There is no way for me to look at "Integrate Lua binding layer into the game" and know from reading that description what implementing that fix will do. I don't have the same insight as a developer or a programmer. I just see a list of things that are being worked on and didn't see a single one saying that it would or might alleviate the lag problems I'm experiencing so as far as I knew it wasn't even acknowledged, let alone being worked on.
If you were experiencing horrific lag problems in a beta and it wasn't acknowledged in plain english in the list of bugs, wouldn't you be a little concerned?
Also, if it has improved, even marginally, since the beta's launch, I can't tell the difference.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I understand your confusion, and I think part of it comes down to not being 100% clear on how the tracker works. It isn't a public progress tracker, what we've done is literally made our bug tracking system visible to everyone. So while it lets us show peope what we're currently working on, each item on the list is really intended for a developer's eyes, in order to let them know what they have to do. We've tried to keep people aware through other means that we're cracking down on lag issues, but we can't really put "we're fixing lag" on Pivotal, because that would involve a heavy shift in how we track and complete tasks and bugfixes.
I appreciate that it wasn't initally clear to you, but hopefully I've been able to dispel some of your fears that we're not making this a priority.
Yeah, definitely. I guess I'll just continue checking back on the game every once in a while.
I still think that its just packet loss and that the server isn't sending out enough information at once though. Based on the symptoms I'm having it feels like it is just a rates issues which doesn't seem that difficult to solve.
and the hits just keep on coming. poor aliens, i hope the onos is a beast.
i hear you, i just hope things like babblers and web and bombard and the shift and shade come out very strong. i feel like the fade was the backbone of the alien team in ns1 and i don't think the ns2 fade can fill that role currently.
It is exactly like the Focus upgrade in NS1, and this was under used and essentially useless. Yeah, you could get a kill in one bite. But this was offset by the fact that you attack half as fast, so essentially you are doing the same damage. Especially when it comes to larger and stronger units or on structures, it makes no difference.
In NS1 it was far too powerful, and the Onos whilst tough was too big a target and too slow to get away comparative to its effective use.
Personally I'd really like to see something a little more special for the secondary attack for the Fade. Something that added to the whole 'Fade experience' of blinking around the map and the stealth class it is destined to be. Perhaps some sort of movement based attack - perhaps a huge energy draining instant attack, that blinks you to the location, attacks, and then instantly blinks you back to your original location. I don't know?
As for the Onos, I hope it to be everything it should be. Like a Rhino running through a crowd of people.
I think one big problem right now is resource balance issues. Marines can pretty easily afford a shotgun after every spawn, whereas in NS1 shotguns were fairly rare. In NS2, aliens get TONS of personal res and can never use it all...I routinely have 300+ res by the end of the game. The only way to spend it all is to hydra spam, and hydras are pretty worthless as is unless you spam them, which doesn't help either. I'm sure this will all be addressed later in development, but it's frustrating right now.
It is exactly like the Focus upgrade in NS1, and this was under used and essentially useless. Yeah, you could get a kill in one bite. But this was offset by the fact that you attack half as fast, so essentially you are doing the same damage. Especially when it comes to larger and stronger units or on structures, it makes no difference.
In NS1 it was far too powerful, and the Onos whilst tough was too big a target and too slow to get away comparative to its effective use.
Personally I'd really like to see something a little more special for the secondary attack for the Fade. Something that added to the whole 'Fade experience' of blinking around the map and the stealth class it is destined to be. Perhaps some sort of movement based attack - perhaps a huge energy draining instant attack, that blinks you to the location, attacks, and then instantly blinks you back to your original location. I don't know?
As for the Onos, I hope it to be everything it should be. Like a Rhino running through a crowd of people.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
actually secondary attack is a backward focus attack. Rather than instantly attack, your attacked is slowed, to be correct, its a nerfed version of the focus attack. Since the only way secondary attack would work on the marine if he actually stood still, while focus can be an instant attack, big difference here.
Others, and me including have offered why not make secondary attack instant attack with short delay, to actually be the focus attack rather then the current version.
as for you saying, "It means that it is not the dominating class it never should have been. " seriously dude? its battlefield class, which is now being reduced to chasing marines on foot, which can be kitted by sprinting marines, I know because I've done this, its pitiful.
If you knew how to aim fade's weren't that powerful, sure you might not SOLO the fade which is more what you saying, but good squad of marines would kill the fade easily. I think you must of played too many combat maps where fades were level 30 or more, in a normal NS game, fades weren't as powerful as you think. You need to learn to travel in squads. Unlike right now, marines can solo the fade easily, which should make those with bad aim happy.
as for the onos comment, if things don't change with the fade, in endgame fights aliens will need every alien to be onos. Since fades can't catch moving targets, they're useless. right now the fade is a mini-onos actually.