<!--quoteo(post=1839374:date=Mar 31 2011, 04:00 AM:name=Raza.)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Raza. @ Mar 31 2011, 04:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1839374"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In highly organized play were teams are small it doesn't make that much of a difference, as it is easier to keep up with deaths and there is more communication. In potentially chaotic pub play with larger teams and less communication it supports team efforts.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is roughly what I was thinking. It's not a big one either way, but I'd still like to see the gameplay design giving me good tools for understanding the situation. If the respawn queue doesn't show up, I'll certainly try to manage it on my own though.
I guess I'm mostly concerned about the pub players in general. In NS1 people seem to be having huge difficulties seeing the big RTS picture, so I'd like avoid creating any extra barriers between people and the information that allows them to start interpreting the strategy layer.
If it's necessary to make sacrifices to gain extra accessibility I'd make them in things like this first rather than cutting away something more dynamic and interesting.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=Asraniel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Asraniel)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS2 is not CoD. NS2 is a RTS, more than it is a shooter. Now tell me a RTS where you can see the enemy units by default. Thats what scouting is for, or scanning etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> NS isn't a standard RTS. Your unit count doesn't progress or vary in any consistent or significant way throughout the game. 5 marines can be either the starting vanilla crew trying to establish a base or 5 HAs gunning down the hive with lvl 3 weaponry. NS is a game of map positioning and equipment. You still scout and scan to see the equipment and positioning, that's a huge part of NS teamwork and strategy.
The biggest thing the scoreboard death count affects is that I know how many opponents are and will be positioned near the spawn areas. However, like I said, I can probably manage that information through the kill messages quite easily anyway. At that point not giving the information directly is just a bit of extra barrier people have to learn to overcome before they can start understanding the strategy more.
<!--quoteo(post=1839413:date=Mar 31 2011, 06:57 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Mar 31 2011, 06:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1839413"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->At that point not giving the information directly is just a bit of extra barrier people have to learn to overcome before they can start understanding the strategy more.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This could be said about anything that makes the game more complex, but that doesn't invalidate it unless it's proven that the complexity isn't worth the depth it provides.
<!--quoteo(post=1839443:date=Mar 31 2011, 04:57 PM:name=KuBaN)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KuBaN @ Mar 31 2011, 04:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1839443"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This could be said about anything that makes the game more complex, but that doesn't invalidate it unless it's proven that the complexity isn't worth the depth it provides.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I exactly tried to point out that I can't see that much further depth in it. Instead of having a scoreboard to keep me the death count I have to make a couple of pretty mechanical mental notes about players dying recently. The scoreboard is mostly keeping list of information that is avaible on player's HUD anyway. At least I can't see that much further dynamics into, apart from maybe having to actually scout the 2nd IP or so.
<!--quoteo(post=1839367:date=Mar 30 2011, 05:07 PM:name=Jaweese)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jaweese @ Mar 30 2011, 05:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1839367"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><i>Delivered - Scoreboard should not display "Dead" status of other team </i> Was this really a problem? I liked knowing how many were alive on the other team.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes it was. Take NS1 for example, where you can see the Dead status of the opposing team. There are 2 problems with this.
First off you can determine the spawn rate of enemy team which indicates how many IPs or hives they have.
Secondly if you check the scoreboard (say every 15 seconds) you really don't need to have much understanding of the enemy team's situation. In NS1 this was constantly abused for checking when to spawn camp and end the game. If all the marines are dead, attack the marine spawn! Kind of lame.
Yes the kill log does display the same information. However watching that and analyzing what it all means is much more skillful than just hitting tab. When using the scoreboard to make *drastic* changes in gameplay strategy, you know that it is displaying too much information. In the case of the enemy team's Dead status, it takes little thought nor understanding of the situation to know when to make a game-ending move. That doesn't seem strategic at all. Viewing the scoreboard shouldn't be a gameplay strategy, when abused for ending the game.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->MACs/Drifters stop moving if an entity was in their way but no longer is<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And what about when the entity does not move? How about upgrade the path finding so something like a armory in the middle of the invisible mac road doesn't cause a traffic jam!
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->MAC can enter into Hive<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So can drifters still enter marine CC's causing the "spy on marine start" exploit? :P
<!--quoteo(post=1839582:date=Apr 1 2011, 03:32 PM:name=Tig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tig @ Apr 1 2011, 03:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1839582"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"Doors should open for macs, drifters, and whips"
so now we can't hide whips behind doors? boo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I made it so doors only open for Whips if they are very close to the door. I can probably add the condition where they don't open if the Whip is rooted if this is a problem still.
<!--quoteo(post=1839596:date=Apr 1 2011, 05:58 PM:name=FocusedWolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FocusedWolf @ Apr 1 2011, 05:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1839596"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How about upgrade the path finding so something like a armory in the middle of the invisible mac road doesn't cause a traffic jam!
So can drifters still enter marine CC's causing the "spy on marine start" exploit? :P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Upgrading path finding is not a simple task. We are in the process of figuring out what the best solution is.
Drifters can no longer enter into any entity :)
<!--quoteo(post=1840321:date=Apr 8 2011, 01:36 PM:name=Papayas)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Papayas @ Apr 8 2011, 01:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1840321"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->@UWE What are you plans for the shotgun and what do you think of the shotgun being OP or not?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Alien armor upgrades are broken in the current Steam release. I am still waiting to hear back from the testers if this has been fixed for the next patch. It should be. Until that is fixed and play tested I don't think we want to change the shotgun. As usual, it is more complicated than it appears.
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
<!--quoteo(post=1840323:date=Apr 8 2011, 04:53 PM:name=MurphyIdiot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MurphyIdiot @ Apr 8 2011, 04:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1840323"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Alien armor upgrades are broken in the current Steam release. I am still waiting to hear back from the testers if this has been fixed for the next patch. It should be. Until that is fixed and play tested I don't think we want to change the shotgun. As usual, it is more complicated than it appears.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I just had a look at this (now that I know how to work with the lua, it's hard to keep my hands off it ...).
I think there is something funny with how mixin-classes work.
Armor handling is defined by the LiveMixin class, and it gives the LiveScriptActor class its health/armor/damage taking ability.
Reading through the code, the Alien_server class overrides the LiveMixing:GetArmorAbsorbPercentage() to add in the increase in armor absorbtion from research (cf Alien_server:GetArmorAbsorbPercentage()). Dropping in some trace code shows that the code in Alien_server is not called. That is, this line
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1--> local absorbPercentage = self:GetArmorAbsorbPercentage(damageType)<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
from LiveMixin ALWAYS calls LiveMixin:GetArmorAbsorbPercentage, even though Alien_Server (which inherits from LiveScriptActor, where LiveMixin has been mixed in) defines its own GetArmorAbsorbPercentage(), where the alien tech changes are incorporated.
At a guess, mixin-methods can't be overridden. I don't know if the bug here is in the mixin method or that the guy writing the LiveMixin code had misunderstood how mixins work - from what Google told me (ie, zero hits on PrepareClassForMixin), I'm guessing the mixin is a local UWE development.
Considering that LiveMixin is mixed in only to LiveScriptActor, the simplest solution would be to just move its code to LiveScriptActor and drop LiveMixin completly. The other mixin-classes don't seem to have this problem; ie noone tries to override their methods.
----
After alll that, and after fixing the code so that armor absorbtion actually works (ie, changes with the crag updates), it came as a bit of dissappointment to realize that armor absorbtion has pretty much no effect on alien staying power. All it does it to shift around how quickly armor dissapears; it doesn't affect how much armor you have nor how effective it is.
Kinda like hydras; allowing you to spam them without crippling the server just makes it clear just how useless they are...
QuovatisTeam InversionJoin Date: 2010-01-26Member: 70321Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited April 2011
Yeah, I kind of guessed that alien armor absorption would have pretty much zero effect in practice. Aliens have so little armor to start with that all the armor points are gone after a few shots anyway. How often do you find yourself going back to heal at a hive with armor points? I almost never do. It doesn't help to increase armor absorption when there is no armor there to absorb! The fade is the only class that even has a chance of seeing any kind of meaningful change. The solution is to increase the default alien armor and compensate by reducing the health. Alternatively, the armor upgrade could add actual armor points to the aliens, but I think other upgrades are supposed to do that (e.g. carapace).
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1840330:date=Apr 8 2011, 01:47 PM:name=Quovatis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Quovatis @ Apr 8 2011, 01:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1840330"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah, I kind of guessed that alien armor absorption would have pretty much zero effect in practice. Aliens have so little armor to start with that all the armor points are gone after a few shots anyway. How often do you find yourself going back to heal at a hive with armor points? I almost never do. It doesn't help to increase armor absorption when there is no armor there to absorb! The fade is the only class that even has a chance of seeing any kind of meaningful change. The solution is to increase the default alien armor and compensate by reducing the health. Alternatively, the armor upgrade could add actual armor points to the aliens, but I think other upgrades are supposed to do that (e.g. carapace).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I go back most of the time with the lerk and fade (and will likely do so with the onos). Though, that's because I like hit-and-run tactics when I'm a lerk or fade.
<!--quoteo(post=1840323:date=Apr 8 2011, 09:53 PM:name=MurphyIdiot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MurphyIdiot @ Apr 8 2011, 09:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1840323"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Alien armor upgrades are broken in the current Steam release. I am still waiting to hear back from the testers if this has been fixed for the next patch. It should be.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That reminds me, a while back it was brought up that some things research instantly when cheats are off, but take a while when they are on, which seems completely backwards. I believe it was alien weapon and armour upgrades, MACs, and Drifters. This was supposed to have been fixed, but it's not, so maybe the change got overwritten?
so how will the shotgun be balanced against alien builds if they refuse to fix the damage against aliens? buff alien builds?
Alien RTs now go down like toothpicks against shotguns, and whips, hydras you can just run up to them blasting them away under seconds they are gone. hell, hydras have so little health it gives more reason to understand they want gorges to spam them since having two or three is next to pointless. Lets not forget they shoot slow, and marines can easily sprint pass them. And single marine with shotgun can easily bring down single hive pretty quickly.
alien builds need a serious buff of some sort, marine builds can withstand far more punishment.
as for the door changes, here my question.
if doors only open for whips and macs, does it mean I can place my mac/whip next to the door so it will stay open long enough for everyone else to pass through? how does this actually work? Or are you making where whips/macs can only go through the door?
<!--quoteo(post=1840323:date=Apr 8 2011, 08:53 PM:name=MurphyIdiot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MurphyIdiot @ Apr 8 2011, 08:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1840323"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Alien armor upgrades are broken in the current Steam release. I am still waiting to hear back from the testers if this has been fixed for the next patch. It should be. Until that is fixed and play tested I don't think we want to change the shotgun. As usual, it is more complicated than it appears.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks for that news, so you waiting until the patch with fixing the armour upgrades is out before you sort out the rest of things.
<!--quoteo(post=1840327:date=Apr 9 2011, 05:29 AM:name=matso)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (matso @ Apr 9 2011, 05:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1840327"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->After alll that, and after fixing the code so that armor absorbtion actually works (ie, changes with the crag updates), it came as a bit of dissappointment to realize that armor absorbtion has pretty much no effect on alien staying power. All it does it to shift around how quickly armor dissapears; it doesn't affect how much armor you have nor how effective it is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is what I concluded as well. Damage types, health and armour are what determine your "effective hitpoints" (= health + healthperarmour*armour); armour absorption just changes the rate at which armour/health drops (higher absorption means armour drops faster, and health drops slower) but you are still taking the <b>same</b> "effective damage" because that is determined by the damage type.
<!--quoteo(post=1840330:date=Apr 9 2011, 05:47 AM:name=Quovatis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Quovatis @ Apr 9 2011, 05:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1840330"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah, I kind of guessed that alien armor absorption would have pretty much zero effect in practice. Aliens have so little armor to start with that all the armor points are gone after a few shots anyway. How often do you find yourself going back to heal at a hive with armor points? I almost never do. It doesn't help to increase armor absorption when there is no armor there to absorb! The fade is the only class that even has a chance of seeing any kind of meaningful change. The solution is to increase the default alien armor and compensate by reducing the health. Alternatively, the armor upgrade could add actual armor points to the aliens, but I think other upgrades are supposed to do that (e.g. carapace).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I was under the impression that carapace IS the alien armour upgrade, and that it changes the armour absorption and nothing else. This is based on what I saw in the code.
Let's have an example. A marine deals <u><b>20</b></u> damage in one hit to a skulk with some hypothetical weapon, of a 'light' damage type (4 health per armour). A skulk has <b>70</b> hp and <b>10</b> armour. Against a damage type of 'light', it has an effective hp of <b>70</b> + <b>10</b>*4 = <u><b>110</b></u>.
<i>Normally</i>, armourabsorption is 0.7. damage absorbed = minimum(armour*healthperarmour, damage*armourabsorption) = minimum(10*4, <u>20*0.7</u>) = <b>14</b> armour destroyed = damage absorbed / healthperarmour = <b>14</b>/4 = <b>3.5</b> health taken = damage - damage absorbed = <b>6</b> skulk's new hp: <b>64</b> skulk's new ap: <b>6.5</b> skulk's effective hp = <b>64</b> + 4*<b>6.5</b> = <u><b>90</b></u> Clearly you can see that <u><b>110</b></u> - <u><b>20</b></u> = <u><b>90</b></u>. What, then, was the point of the armour absorption?
<i>Just to illustrate it more obviously</i>, let's change armourabsorption to 1. damage absorbed = minimum(armour*healthperarmour, damage*armourabsorption) = minimum(10*4, <u>20*1</u>) = <b>20</b> armour destroyed = damage absorbed / healthperarmour = <b>20</b>/4 = <b>5</b> health taken = damage - damage absorbed = <b>0</b> skulk's new hp: <b>70</b> skulk's new ap: <b>5</b> skulk's effective hp = <b>70</b> + 4*<b>5</b> = <u><b>90</b></u> Clearly no difference.
<i>Just for fun</i>, let's do something illogical and make armourabsorption 2.5. damage absorbed = minimum(armour*healthperarmour, damage*armourabsorption) = minimum(<u>10*4</u>, 20*2.5) = <b>40</b> armour destroyed = damage absorbed / healthperarmour = <b>40</b>/4 = <b>10</b> health taken = damage - damage absorbed = <b>-20</b> skulk's new hp: <b>90</b> skulk's new ap: <b>0</b> skulk's effective hp = <b>90</b> + 4*<b>0</b> = <u><b>90</b></u> Despite health actually regenerating... there is still no difference to effective hp.
<b>Long story short</b>, <u>armour damage absorption doesn't affect overall survivability at all</u>. What it does do is affect which of your two "hitpoints" (health or armour?) goes down first and how fast.
Shotgun is not necessarily imbalanced. The issue you is that NS is a game that <i>scales</i> with skill. None of us would could put up a decent game against MC, Nada or Boxer. Even if we played 100 games, they would probably win all of them. The same thing applies to NS1, normal skulks cannot kill a shotgun like marko even if a hundred them would come. He can kill a team of equally skilled players, not to mention average casual players.
I don't deny it is a problem, but "fixing" it might cause more problems like Brian said. In NS1, atleast it wasn't a problem on big servers as long as the teams are balanced. In NS2, the games are with very few players thus a big difference in skill is going to show up. Also I think a lot of movement-related skill has been lost since, most people know how to shoot but melee-vs-ranged games are hard to come by today.
That doesn't answer the question whether attributes should tweaked to balance this, but I'm just stating the issue is more complex than it might seem at first.
In NS 2.0, the alien armor was increased and it resulted in super powerful cara skulks. And there was not even leap which helps a lot. This was quickly reverted in NS 2.01.
So it ought to also increase the amount of damage to armour that is completely negated? Lets say 100hp 100ap and we take 100 damage Level 0: negate 0.5, absorb 0.7 -> 100+100/(1-0.5) = 100+200 = 300 effective hp 100 damage-> hp=70, ap=100-(70-70*0.5)=100-35=65 --- 65ap= 65/(1-0.5)= 65/0.5 = 130 effective hp; Total 200.
QuovatisTeam InversionJoin Date: 2010-01-26Member: 70321Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
The crag armor upgrades are supposed to increase armor absorption while the carapace upgrade is supposed to increase the amount of armor. But clearly as you point out, armor absorption makes no difference. The marine armor upgrades actually increases armor, but the aliens don't.
Anyway, something needs to be changed dramatically to make this all work. Having armor absorption actually ignore some damage might be the solution.
<!--quoteo(post=1840323:date=Apr 8 2011, 04:53 PM:name=MurphyIdiot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MurphyIdiot @ Apr 8 2011, 04:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1840323"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Upgrading path finding is not a simple task. We are in the process of figuring out what the best solution is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What if when faced with an obstacle, that the macs go invisible + fancy phase-out effect, and when emerging from the obstacle they return to a visible state + fancy phase-in effect?
It's just a rehashing + nice effects added to the previous behavior that allowed macs to fly through obstacles. It would allow for the path finding code to ignore props + players + state-of-doors since only the maps static layout would be relevant.
Personally i don't like this idea... but it may be the most efficient choice. Perhaps even a good temporary fix.
PlasmaJoin Date: 2003-04-26Member: 15855Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1840323:date=Apr 9 2011, 07:53 AM:name=MurphyIdiot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MurphyIdiot @ Apr 9 2011, 07:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1840323"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Upgrading path finding is not a simple task. We are in the process of figuring out what the best solution is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm sure you've thought of it and this is probably way too simplified; but can't you just penalize the space (in A* algorithm using a high cost) to prevent a MAC trying to cross through something?
It may help path finding testing also if you can just see the path the MAC is going to take, without actually moving etc to see how quickly algorithm changes help improve.
A reminder though; the path finding use to be very good imo; it was 'broken' several patches ago (just after alpha?) where they started to take right angles to get to a point etc instead of taking a direct route.
I really hope we see this performance increase soon and definitely a new map or two, the beta has gone a bit stale now with the same old stuff and only fixes appearing.
At least consider adding automatic download of maps, its a feature im sure will come at some point but id rather have it sooner than later considering it shouldn't take long to add?
<!--quoteo(post=1840841:date=Apr 13 2011, 12:56 PM:name=Archaic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Archaic @ Apr 13 2011, 12:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1840841"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i think automatic download is bad. a pop up window that gives you the choice of downloading is the way to go, imo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm pretty sure they have no control over how to Steam distributes the patches they upload, but regardless, why is that the way to go?
EDIT: Fail. Thought you were talking about the client patch, not custom maps. Yep, I agree!
Most games just download when you try connecting to a server, an extra pop up seems unnecessary as you're choosing to connect to a server with a map you don't have, but yeah options are always good, as long as it has a check box to make it automatic thats fine.
I would say the truly best solution would be a filter for servers running any downloadable content (ie maps, custom textures/models/sounds etc). For example I saw some custom skins for MACs that would make a great mod, but even better would be if I could find a server op to host the map I'm working on for testing and would allow people to connect and play it without having to know where to download it from first.
I wonder why they dont just use the steam server browser ingame, it works it got filters and favorits and more options. I would really love to see that heppen.
<!--quoteo(post=1841000:date=Apr 14 2011, 04:17 PM:name=rammaj)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rammaj @ Apr 14 2011, 04:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1841000"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I wonder why they dont just use the steam server browser ingame, it works it got filters and favorits and more options. I would really love to see that heppen.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Because they won't be remaining exclusive to Steam, so they're going to have to implement their own server browser anyways.
Comments
In potentially chaotic pub play with larger teams and less communication it supports team efforts.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is roughly what I was thinking. It's not a big one either way, but I'd still like to see the gameplay design giving me good tools for understanding the situation. If the respawn queue doesn't show up, I'll certainly try to manage it on my own though.
I guess I'm mostly concerned about the pub players in general. In NS1 people seem to be having huge difficulties seeing the big RTS picture, so I'd like avoid creating any extra barriers between people and the information that allows them to start interpreting the strategy layer.
If it's necessary to make sacrifices to gain extra accessibility I'd make them in things like this first rather than cutting away something more dynamic and interesting.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=Asraniel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Asraniel)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS2 is not CoD. NS2 is a RTS, more than it is a shooter.
Now tell me a RTS where you can see the enemy units by default. Thats what scouting is for, or scanning etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NS isn't a standard RTS. Your unit count doesn't progress or vary in any consistent or significant way throughout the game. 5 marines can be either the starting vanilla crew trying to establish a base or 5 HAs gunning down the hive with lvl 3 weaponry. NS is a game of map positioning and equipment. You still scout and scan to see the equipment and positioning, that's a huge part of NS teamwork and strategy.
The biggest thing the scoreboard death count affects is that I know how many opponents are and will be positioned near the spawn areas. However, like I said, I can probably manage that information through the kill messages quite easily anyway. At that point not giving the information directly is just a bit of extra barrier people have to learn to overcome before they can start understanding the strategy more.
This could be said about anything that makes the game more complex, but that doesn't invalidate it unless it's proven that the complexity isn't worth the depth it provides.
I exactly tried to point out that I can't see that much further depth in it. Instead of having a scoreboard to keep me the death count I have to make a couple of pretty mechanical mental notes about players dying recently. The scoreboard is mostly keeping list of information that is avaible on player's HUD anyway. At least I can't see that much further dynamics into, apart from maybe having to actually scout the 2nd IP or so.
</i>
Was this really a problem? I liked knowing how many were alive on the other team.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes it was. Take NS1 for example, where you can see the Dead status of the opposing team. There are 2 problems with this.
First off you can determine the spawn rate of enemy team which indicates how many IPs or hives they have.
Secondly if you check the scoreboard (say every 15 seconds) you really don't need to have much understanding of the enemy team's situation. In NS1 this was constantly abused for checking when to spawn camp and end the game. If all the marines are dead, attack the marine spawn! Kind of lame.
Yes the kill log does display the same information. However watching that and analyzing what it all means is much more skillful than just hitting tab. When using the scoreboard to make *drastic* changes in gameplay strategy, you know that it is displaying too much information. In the case of the enemy team's Dead status, it takes little thought nor understanding of the situation to know when to make a game-ending move. That doesn't seem strategic at all. Viewing the scoreboard shouldn't be a gameplay strategy, when abused for ending the game.
so now we can't hide whips behind doors? boo.
And what about when the entity does not move? How about upgrade the path finding so something like a armory in the middle of the invisible mac road doesn't cause a traffic jam!
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->MAC can enter into Hive<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So can drifters still enter marine CC's causing the "spy on marine start" exploit? :P
so now we can't hide whips behind doors? boo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Never thought of that one nice! It should open only for unrooted.
@UWE What are you plans for the shotgun and what do you think of the shotgun being OP or not?
so now we can't hide whips behind doors? boo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I made it so doors only open for Whips if they are very close to the door. I can probably add the condition where they don't open if the Whip is rooted if this is a problem still.
<!--quoteo(post=1839596:date=Apr 1 2011, 05:58 PM:name=FocusedWolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FocusedWolf @ Apr 1 2011, 05:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1839596"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How about upgrade the path finding so something like a armory in the middle of the invisible mac road doesn't cause a traffic jam!
So can drifters still enter marine CC's causing the "spy on marine start" exploit? :P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Upgrading path finding is not a simple task. We are in the process of figuring out what the best solution is.
Drifters can no longer enter into any entity :)
<!--quoteo(post=1840321:date=Apr 8 2011, 01:36 PM:name=Papayas)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Papayas @ Apr 8 2011, 01:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1840321"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->@UWE What are you plans for the shotgun and what do you think of the shotgun being OP or not?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Alien armor upgrades are broken in the current Steam release. I am still waiting to hear back from the testers if this has been fixed for the next patch. It should be.
Until that is fixed and play tested I don't think we want to change the shotgun. As usual, it is more complicated than it appears.
Until that is fixed and play tested I don't think we want to change the shotgun. As usual, it is more complicated than it appears.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I just had a look at this (now that I know how to work with the lua, it's hard to keep my hands off it ...).
I think there is something funny with how mixin-classes work.
Armor handling is defined by the LiveMixin class, and it gives the LiveScriptActor class its health/armor/damage taking ability.
Reading through the code, the Alien_server class overrides the LiveMixing:GetArmorAbsorbPercentage() to add in the increase in armor absorbtion from research (cf Alien_server:GetArmorAbsorbPercentage()). Dropping in some trace code shows that the code in Alien_server is not called. That is, this line
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1--> local absorbPercentage = self:GetArmorAbsorbPercentage(damageType)<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
from LiveMixin ALWAYS calls LiveMixin:GetArmorAbsorbPercentage, even though Alien_Server (which inherits from
LiveScriptActor, where LiveMixin has been mixed in) defines its own GetArmorAbsorbPercentage(), where the alien
tech changes are incorporated.
At a guess, mixin-methods can't be overridden. I don't know if the bug here is in the mixin method or that the guy writing the LiveMixin code had misunderstood how mixins work - from what Google told me (ie, zero hits on PrepareClassForMixin), I'm guessing the mixin is a local UWE development.
Considering that LiveMixin is mixed in only to LiveScriptActor, the simplest solution would be to just move its code to LiveScriptActor and drop LiveMixin completly. The other mixin-classes don't seem to have this problem; ie noone tries to override their methods.
----
After alll that, and after fixing the code so that armor absorbtion actually works (ie, changes with the crag updates), it came as a bit of dissappointment to realize that armor absorbtion has pretty much no effect on alien staying power. All it does it to shift around how quickly armor dissapears; it doesn't affect how much armor you have nor how effective it is.
Kinda like hydras; allowing you to spam them without crippling the server just makes it clear just how useless they are...
I go back most of the time with the lerk and fade (and will likely do so with the onos). Though, that's because I like hit-and-run tactics when I'm a lerk or fade.
That reminds me, a while back it was brought up that some things research instantly when cheats are off, but take a while when they are on, which seems completely backwards. I believe it was alien weapon and armour upgrades, MACs, and Drifters. This was supposed to have been fixed, but it's not, so maybe the change got overwritten?
Alien RTs now go down like toothpicks against shotguns, and whips, hydras you can just run up to them blasting them away under seconds they are gone.
hell, hydras have so little health it gives more reason to understand they want gorges to spam them since having two or three is next to pointless. Lets not forget they shoot slow, and marines can easily sprint pass them. And single marine with shotgun can easily bring down single hive pretty quickly.
alien builds need a serious buff of some sort, marine builds can withstand far more punishment.
as for the door changes, here my question.
if doors only open for whips and macs, does it mean I can place my mac/whip next to the door so it will stay open long enough for everyone else to pass through? how does this actually work?
Or are you making where whips/macs can only go through the door?
Until that is fixed and play tested I don't think we want to change the shotgun. As usual, it is more complicated than it appears.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks for that news, so you waiting until the patch with fixing the armour upgrades is out before you sort out the rest of things.
This is what I concluded as well. Damage types, health and armour are what determine your "effective hitpoints" (= health + healthperarmour*armour); armour absorption just changes the rate at which armour/health drops (higher absorption means armour drops faster, and health drops slower) but you are still taking the <b>same</b> "effective damage" because that is determined by the damage type.
<!--quoteo(post=1840330:date=Apr 9 2011, 05:47 AM:name=Quovatis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Quovatis @ Apr 9 2011, 05:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1840330"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah, I kind of guessed that alien armor absorption would have pretty much zero effect in practice. Aliens have so little armor to start with that all the armor points are gone after a few shots anyway. How often do you find yourself going back to heal at a hive with armor points? I almost never do. It doesn't help to increase armor absorption when there is no armor there to absorb! The fade is the only class that even has a chance of seeing any kind of meaningful change. The solution is to increase the default alien armor and compensate by reducing the health. Alternatively, the armor upgrade could add actual armor points to the aliens, but I think other upgrades are supposed to do that (e.g. carapace).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was under the impression that carapace IS the alien armour upgrade, and that it changes the armour absorption and nothing else. This is based on what I saw in the code.
Let's have an example.
A marine deals <u><b>20</b></u> damage in one hit to a skulk with some hypothetical weapon, of a 'light' damage type (4 health per armour).
A skulk has <b>70</b> hp and <b>10</b> armour. Against a damage type of 'light', it has an effective hp of <b>70</b> + <b>10</b>*4 = <u><b>110</b></u>.
<i>Normally</i>, armourabsorption is 0.7.
damage absorbed = minimum(armour*healthperarmour, damage*armourabsorption) = minimum(10*4, <u>20*0.7</u>) = <b>14</b>
armour destroyed = damage absorbed / healthperarmour = <b>14</b>/4 = <b>3.5</b>
health taken = damage - damage absorbed = <b>6</b>
skulk's new hp: <b>64</b>
skulk's new ap: <b>6.5</b>
skulk's effective hp = <b>64</b> + 4*<b>6.5</b> = <u><b>90</b></u>
Clearly you can see that <u><b>110</b></u> - <u><b>20</b></u> = <u><b>90</b></u>. What, then, was the point of the armour absorption?
<i>Just to illustrate it more obviously</i>, let's change armourabsorption to 1.
damage absorbed = minimum(armour*healthperarmour, damage*armourabsorption) = minimum(10*4, <u>20*1</u>) = <b>20</b>
armour destroyed = damage absorbed / healthperarmour = <b>20</b>/4 = <b>5</b>
health taken = damage - damage absorbed = <b>0</b>
skulk's new hp: <b>70</b>
skulk's new ap: <b>5</b>
skulk's effective hp = <b>70</b> + 4*<b>5</b> = <u><b>90</b></u>
Clearly no difference.
<i>Just for fun</i>, let's do something illogical and make armourabsorption 2.5.
damage absorbed = minimum(armour*healthperarmour, damage*armourabsorption) = minimum(<u>10*4</u>, 20*2.5) = <b>40</b>
armour destroyed = damage absorbed / healthperarmour = <b>40</b>/4 = <b>10</b>
health taken = damage - damage absorbed = <b>-20</b>
skulk's new hp: <b>90</b>
skulk's new ap: <b>0</b>
skulk's effective hp = <b>90</b> + 4*<b>0</b> = <u><b>90</b></u>
Despite health actually regenerating... there is still no difference to effective hp.
<b>Long story short</b>, <u>armour damage absorption doesn't affect overall survivability at all</u>.
What it does do is affect which of your two "hitpoints" (health or armour?) goes down first and how fast.
I don't deny it is a problem, but "fixing" it might cause more problems like Brian said. In NS1, atleast it wasn't a problem on big servers as long as the teams are balanced. In NS2, the games are with very few players thus a big difference in skill is going to show up. Also I think a lot of movement-related skill has been lost since, most people know how to shoot but melee-vs-ranged games are hard to come by today.
That doesn't answer the question whether attributes should tweaked to balance this, but I'm just stating the issue is more complex than it might seem at first.
In NS 2.0, the alien armor was increased and it resulted in super powerful cara skulks. And there was not even leap which helps a lot. This was quickly reverted in NS 2.01.
Lets say 100hp 100ap and we take 100 damage
Level 0:
negate 0.5, absorb 0.7 -> 100+100/(1-0.5) = 100+200 = 300 effective hp
100 damage-> hp=70, ap=100-(70-70*0.5)=100-35=65 --- 65ap= 65/(1-0.5)= 65/0.5 = 130 effective hp; Total 200.
Level 1:
negate 0.6, absorb 0.8 -> 100+100/(1-0.6) = 100+250 = 350 effective hp
100 damage-> hp=80, ap=100-(80-80*0.6)=100-32=68 --- 68ap= 68/(1-0.6)= 68/0.4 = 170 effective hp; Total 250.
Perhaps a bit extreme example numbers.
Anyway, something needs to be changed dramatically to make this all work. Having armor absorption actually ignore some damage might be the solution.
What if when faced with an obstacle, that the macs go invisible + fancy phase-out effect, and when emerging from the obstacle they return to a visible state + fancy phase-in effect?
It's just a rehashing + nice effects added to the previous behavior that allowed macs to fly through obstacles. It would allow for the path finding code to ignore props + players + state-of-doors since only the maps static layout would be relevant.
Personally i don't like this idea... but it may be the most efficient choice. Perhaps even a good temporary fix.
I'm sure you've thought of it and this is probably way too simplified; but can't you just penalize the space (in A* algorithm using a high cost) to prevent a MAC trying to cross through something?
It may help path finding testing also if you can just see the path the MAC is going to take, without actually moving etc to see how quickly algorithm changes help improve.
A reminder though; the path finding use to be very good imo; it was 'broken' several patches ago (just after alpha?) where they started to take right angles to get to a point etc instead of taking a direct route.
At least consider adding automatic download of maps, its a feature im sure will come at some point but id rather have it sooner than later considering it shouldn't take long to add?
I'm pretty sure they have no control over how to Steam distributes the patches they upload, but regardless, why is that the way to go?
EDIT: Fail. Thought you were talking about the client patch, not custom maps. Yep, I agree!
<a href="http://blastr.com/assets_c/2010/01/StarWars_vader_noooo-thumb-550x378-32922.jpg" target="_blank">NOOOOOOO!!!</a>
Because they won't be remaining exclusive to Steam, so they're going to have to implement their own server browser anyways.