I think the 2 main problems are that the marines have not had time to change their tactics since the introduction of the new features (phase gates and arc) and the size of the maps.
The only map that I played on last night that seemed to give marines a chance was summit because the hives were much further away from marine start which gave the marines a chance to get out before being pinned in.
One thing that I think could really help out marines with the res issue is to have marines drop their guns when killed and allow others to pick them up like in NS1.
Most of the time i was waiting around with a lmg trying to fight off fades for 4 or 5 deaths till i could afford a shotgun but then i would be the only one on the team with a upgraded weapon and die almost straight away again.
I remember in NS1 where weapons were valuable and players would try keeping a hmg alive by picking it up and dropping it until another player came back to pick it up.
<!--quoteo(post=1850853:date=Jun 8 2011, 10:28 AM:name=Saint Raw)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Saint Raw @ Jun 8 2011, 10:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1850853"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think the balance is that far off.
The problem lies solely within hydra spam and corresponding fps drops which mostly affect shooters. Fix the performance, reg and stuff and we'll talk again.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was Alien com today: 1Crag 2 Hydras 1 Whip 2 Sentrys on Server. Ticks were at 4. 15 crags 5 whips around 15 Hydras 7 Sentrys. Ticks were at 12 on a other Server. Both 6 vs 6 and both in lategame ( around 1 hour).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't know about marines getting killed more easily now. I played a few games last night (most as marine), and always had the most kills of anyone (alien or marine). The shotgun is still very good. I can't win 1v1 vs a fade anymore like I used to, with the new blink and shotgun nerf, but that's how it should be. The minigun and exosuit will be the counter in the future. Lerks and Skulks seem to be about the same as before and die pretty easily.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> by Quovatis, i know i played with you last night
<!--quoteo(post=1850913:date=Jun 8 2011, 01:44 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Jun 8 2011, 01:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1850913"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I also feel like Skulk leap is a problem although I'm not sure what to do about it yet. It might become an upgrade, or it might come with two hives, but giving it to all skulks all the time is quite a problem for marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why not make leap cost more adrenaline initially so you can only leap once before having to nearly full-recharge, until you either get an upgrade or build a second hive or whatever?
QuovatisTeam InversionJoin Date: 2010-01-26Member: 70321Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
Give it a little time. I have yet to play a game where the marine commander had the skills of a typical NS1 commander. It takes some skill to do it right. Like was said, you can no longer just scatter in all directions and expect to win. You need to group up, build mini-bases, use strategic phase gates, etc to win as marine now. In one game last night, the marines controlled all but one tech point on Summit and had 999 team res. We just didn't have the commander experience to seal the deal and eventually lost by everyone giving up and leaving. We still had 999 res when the game ended. I have no doubt that a trained and experienced commander could have led us to victory with a few arcs and a sentry-defended phase gate.
res cap seriously needs to be added, both to personal res and commander res. I hate seeing res overflowing like this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think the 999 res cap is that bad. The game I mentioned was a 2 hour game where the marines owned all the res nodes for 1 hour straight, but couldn't finish the last hive. Odd thing was, it seemed to be stuck at 999 and never went down. Maybe the game kept track of how much res we had, but just displays 999 if it's 1000 or more.
capping res would be better in the long run. It would mean commander, and marines would wisely spend their res, without reaching such high point where they can easily spam anything they want or constantly buy all the things they want each time they die.
you might of found a bug if it kept displaying 999, I've not come across this before though. I do know I usually end up with more res than I need.
<!--quoteo(post=1850924:date=Jun 8 2011, 02:15 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jun 8 2011, 02:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1850924"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Doesn't work if the fades also work in groups.
Saying that you need 3 marines to kill 1 fade is hardly balanced, fades are hideously OP at the moment, the only reason they need to die is because they're careless, a cautious fade is effectively immortal and can still get kills or destroy structures very easily.
I suck as fade, and yet I can easily dominate the marines with it, because it has tonnes of health, does tonnes of damage on each hit, and can basically back out of any fight whenever it wants to.
Essentially I get between 5 and 10 seconds to try and hit a marine three times, then I go back to the hive, then I get another 5-10 seconds, with no res cost or anything, just by virtue of being a fade.
This is overpowered.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah yeah good old NS1 Fade Times. Cele/adre and focus. 4 Rines?? Why not 10 ^^. The problem is, that only a combo ( SG's and Flamer) has a real chance vs Fade now. But the time till Aliens go Fade and Marines Flamer is too big, that Marines could handle Fades.
<!--quoteo(post=1850936:date=Jun 8 2011, 03:21 PM:name=luns)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (luns @ Jun 8 2011, 03:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1850936"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->those are problems which need to be addressed. I just don't agree we should cripple the class because of other broken parts of the game. the fade starting to finally feel as he should be, more work is needed like air control said to be added. Also better momentum for his movement is needed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Will mean, Fades become easier to control and then even 6 Marines don't have a chance vs 1 Fade. If the Fade can only blink like in a tunnel the Marine has a chance to know where the Fade "pops" up. With strafing and mousemovement they don't have the last chance to kill a Fade who whants to escape.
Saying marines ONLY have to be x2 better than aliens to win, is NOT balanced.
When someone says "oh, we just need the perfect, experienced, commander and for EVERYONE on the marine side to play in perfect harmony. Then we can beat some scrub aliens who play with no coordination", it drives me nuts. How in the hell is that balanced?
I also don't buy the argument about "commanders were better in NS1". I'm pretty sure most of us are NS1 veterans. The game ain't that damned complicated, I don't think all of us got dumb overnight. There's no radical new strat or steep learning curve. We know how this works by now. By this logic, marines should be doing BETTER than before the patch, because it's more like NS1 than build 177! You got your phase gates back! So the argument is bogus. After all, aliens are going to improve over time, too.
I will provide this caveat: when server pop dies down a little, these problems will shrink. Lag will diminish, helping marines, and shottie runs will probably work again due to low map control. But with big teams, I think there's a problem.
<!--quoteo(post=1850850:date=Jun 8 2011, 10:09 AM:name=kabab)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kabab @ Jun 8 2011, 10:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1850850"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To be honest it's not bad the balance at the moment, the game can drag into a stalemate but overall its okay..
The problem is people have forgotten how to play marines!
You can no longer rambo as marines since aliens can actually land hits now...
Marines must work as units just like they did in NS1 you have to check blind spots cover each others backs not block line of fire etc etc...
With the introduction of phase gates marines need to capitalise on this..
In short start playing marines properly now otherwise your going to get owned.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
TalesinOur own little well of hateJoin Date: 2002-11-08Member: 7710NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators
The balance isn't as bad as people seem to think it is... I've been bumming around in games as Marine, and the main issue I see is again, RAMBOS. If Marines stick together as a group and space themselves properly, things even out. Remember the NS1 mantra. 1 skulk + 1 marine = 1 skulk. 2 skulks + 2 marines = tossup. 3 skulks + 3 marines = 3 marines.
Just everyone is used to the shotgun doing far more damage and melee hits being FAR more difficult, and hasn't adapted again yet.
just recorded a video of of both examples, first server i joined, group of 5 marines, with flames and shotguns obliterated a few fades. main problem of course? blinking behind them and marines couldnt track, plus rambos running off. no overpowered whining, and will upload video to youtube shortly. hopefully this will stop this knee jerk reaction crap.
Res is a little too easy to come by as aliens right now, this is true. OK, so it takes 50 res to go fade - it takes me about TWO lives as skulk to get that res. I'm sure there's something to the hit registry making melee easy and bullets hard, too, as I suck at skulk but was going on rampages.
I do think the Marines need to step up and start taking advantage of the tools they're getting in this patch, but I'll have to play some more games on that side and see how things go. if you just can't hit aliens, then every alien is going to be OP.
As for people complaining about combos needed vs fades? That's absolutely fine. You wouldn't take LMG's against an NS1 fade, you'd need at least one shotgunner, preferrably two. Big units should be hard to kill. If something WORKS vs fades (as this shotgun + flamer appears to), don't complain if you don't feel like using it. Things might get rebalanced, but for now figure out what's effective and capitalize on it. Finding out what can beat something that's "OP" is an important part of finding balance.
maybe it's me but your vid seems to reinforce the complaints if anything (although i stopped watching a few minutes in). the first fade to die ran into the middle of the marine's base with several guys and sentries shooting him. and the second died after taking several seconds worth of fire from 5? marines. now if you'd like, you could record me as i 1v1 a fade with a shotty :P.
exactly, marines shouldnt and will not be able to solo a fade, a group of marines will almost 100% of the time down a fade if he stays in the room more than 3-4 secs. with a flamethrower that lowers that time. maybe because when i had to re-encode the vid in vegas (made is small but a lil dark), the reason these fades lasted even that long is because when the fade blinked, he got behind them, and the marines didnt track properly.
0:15 - 2 marines enter the room, fade blinks behind shotgunner. shotgunner with poor tracking misses the fade directly behind him (while his flamer backup runs off.. ) not overpowered there just poor marine tactics. and yea you mentioned the fade running into MS, he died like he shouldve. now if the commander had been a little more aggressive the marines wouldnt have been overwhelmed near the end. it took 3 fades to clear them out tho. not overpowered, just takes getting used to.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1851059:date=Jun 8 2011, 11:07 PM:name=DJPenguin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DJPenguin @ Jun 8 2011, 11:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1851059"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->maybe it's me but your vid seems to reinforce the complaints if anything (although i stopped watching a few minutes in). the first fade to die ran into the middle of the marine's base with several guys and sentries shooting him. and the second died after taking several seconds worth of fire from 5? marines. now if you'd like, you could record me as i 1v1 a fade with a shotty :P.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I second this.
The video seems to prove the opposite. Watched the whole thing and saw marines kill 2 fades and the fades kill 6-7 marines. The only times marines were successful were either 1) the fade attacked a heavily sentried room or 2) the odds were stacked in the marines favor (i.e. it took 5 marines to kill 1 fade).
Also, the flamethrower seems to be ineffective in preventing fades from blinking. Since blink has been changed from draining a discrete to continuous amount of energy, a fade can jump in, kill a marine, and still have enough energy to do a 1s blink out of danger even while on fire. Maybe it should be switched to prevent the fade from entering blink instead of just preventing the recharge of energy.
There are ways to deal with Fades, no question there. There were also ways to deal with Fades in NS1. The trouble is Fades coming out so much earlier thanks to RFK. That's what snowballed out of control in NS1 and it's going to happen again in NS2.
RFK is always going to favour Aliens more in the early game than Marines. Thats because early game aliens can spend their res on upgrades that enhance their combat abilities far more than what marines can do. A Fade is much, much more of an upgrade from a Skulk than a Shotgun is from a Rifle. Late game, a Marine could outfit themselves with a Flamethrower and Exosuit to multiply their combat effectiveness many times, though whether it provides the same multiplication as an Onos is up for debate, given that neither setup is in the game yet. Regardless, an Alien player who gains resources early game can spend them on much nastier upgrades than a marine can.
Much more worrying is the fact that a single decent Fade gives the Alien team almost total map control. A lone Marine will find it hard to take down one res node before an alien or two shows up to take him out. A Fade by contrast can take out nodes and defeat small forces that show up to try and drive him off. That Fade also has far more mobility than the marines have, allowing him to move anywhere on the map extremely quickly. Marines can only move in numbers, which greatly reduces their ability to project themselves onto the map and gain more resources. The alien team is free to tech and expand at their leisure, knowing that the chance of them being challenged is very low. The marines are kept on edge, too nervous to go out (and feed the Fades more resources so that if by chance they take one down, the player can just go Fade again anyway) and unable to gain much of a foothold. Eventually the alien team simply overwhelms them with superiour tech and resources.
All this wouldn't nessessarily a problem if Fades showed up when they're supposed to: mid game. Fades are a Tier 2 organism, just like Armour 2/Weapons 2, GLs and Flamethrowers are Tier 2 Marine upgrades (Tier 3 being Exo, JP, Onos obviously. Borrowing Starcraft terminology here but with good reason, it fits). In other words, Fades should be showing up when the Marine team has the resources to take them on, assuming both sides tech and gain resources at similar rates (and theorically, they should, given that the resource gathering methods are identical, assuming relatively equal levels of teamwork and skill on both sides). Res for Kills throws this all out the window, which is precisely why I hated it in NS1 and why I decry it's entry into NS2. Now players can (and do) go Fade much, much earlier than they should be. Small wonder they're carving Marines teams up. I find it utterly astonishing that in the dev team's thoughts on RFK's introduction they made no mention of this as a downside (and having read through their thoughts on this matter, I'd be even more astonished if they took RFK out given that they seem to think it's the best thing since sliced bread). Nerfing the Fade isn't the answer; RFK is and always has been the issue here.
Give it time. No way you've experimented around it enough at this point. Is it imbalanced? Probably, but give it a week at the very least. Discussion is good, but I can't see anyone forming a substantial understanding of the issue in a couple of days of public play - it's way too early for any conclusions. Right now you should be throwing around ideas and strategies rather than complaining. Play super aggressive, play super defensive, try some crazy economy thingy or so. At this point I'd probably first try to figure out ways to abuse the time before fades are in. Force the aliens to invest more earlier on and you'll have fewer fades on a later timing.
The change in res model causes fewer aliens to spend res on building, which leads to more lifeforms in general. Combine that with the newbie friendly leap and RFK and at least on lower levels you've got a plenty of lifeforms quite early. Depending a bit on how onos and lerk find their roles, I wouldn't find it impossible that a public game has nearly 10 players getting possibility to fade nearly simultaneously (RFK and individual upgrade purchases break up the timing to some extend at least). Is the game supposed to be balanced around that or is there some plan on sidestepping this?
I think blink will probably still need something though. Right now it adds extra challenge for marines while it still seems less dynamic and skill intense for aliens than the NS1 counterpart. At that point you're going to have pretty nasty time scaling it to higher levels of play where marines can actually hit the bloody thing.
<!--quoteo(post=1851066:date=Jun 9 2011, 01:54 AM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Jun 9 2011, 01:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1851066"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I second this.
The video seems to prove the opposite. Watched the whole thing and saw marines kill 2 fades and the fades kill 6-7 marines. The only times marines were successful were either 1) the fade attacked a heavily sentried room or 2) the odds were stacked in the marines favor (i.e. it took 5 marines to kill 1 fade).
Also, the flamethrower seems to be ineffective in preventing fades from blinking. Since blink has been changed from draining a discrete to continuous amount of energy, a fade can jump in, kill a marine, and still have enough energy to do a 1s blink out of danger even while on fire. Maybe it should be switched to prevent the fade from entering blink instead of just preventing the recharge of energy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
uh what? what sentries.... LOL
wanna know why it took so many marines to kill one, because they kept missing constantly and were terrible backup. watch 6:09 onward. stupid tactics. marine is 1 ft away building a PG while the other marine gets destroyed by a fade (yes a fade vs 1 marine = marine SHOULD be dead ALWAYS). seriously, thats why SQUADS are in the game.
obviously you didnt watch the vid but ill point out each scene for you.
0:12 - 2 marines enter the room, one has shotgun other has ft. fade proceedes to blink behind shotgunner as he should. ft carrier runs off forward in search of gorge, leaving LONE SHOTGUNNER to fight fade. fade OF COURSE kills shotgunner and proceeds to attack ft carrier. ft carrier drains fade of energy and lives when another shotgunner enters room.
0:56 - fade enters marine start (NO turrets btw) and gets clobbered by heavily armed marines in about 3 seconds.
1:24 - marine squad enters a room while a fade is attacking power node. gorge in tow. marines have 1 ft and shotguns and a lmger. fade decides to attack so smartly he blinks behind them and uses the "overpowered" skill of ATTACKING FROM BEHIND. solid marine squad uses ft and movement tactics to stay alive and chase the fade off. 1 lone marine (prolly a ns1 vet) recognizes this tactic and chases him down. because of the ft and multiple hits lone marine is able to pistol fade and kill fade. (again... no turrets involved)
1:51 - marines for some reason start the long hallway camp.
they are there for the rest of the video, takes multiple fades to clear them out.
does this sound overpowered? you whiners get annoying.
<!--quoteo(post=1850913:date=Jun 8 2011, 12:44 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Jun 8 2011, 12:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1850913"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Personally, I too think that improved performance will help the marines significantly more than the aliens. I also feel like Skulk leap is a problem although I'm not sure what to do about it yet. It might become an upgrade, or it might come with two hives, but giving it to all skulks all the time is quite a problem for marines.
The biggest problem I want to address right now is stalemates (with marines holed up on their base). I might put in Gorge bile bomb again but there are other ways to solve it too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A slight change in map design solves stalemates. On summit for example we turtled up a long as we could but the power node is exposed on the right side. Once their lerks and suicide rushes took it out the game was over. Although power packs could have kept us going, it wasn't thought of at the time.
<!--quoteo(post=1851074:date=Jun 9 2011, 03:45 AM:name=VeNeM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VeNeM @ Jun 9 2011, 03:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1851074"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->wanna know why it took so many marines to kill one, because they kept missing constantly and were terrible backup.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
All your video shows is that Fades who fight 5 marines with shotgunners and flamethrowers can be killed... barely. And any less than that, and the Fade won't die.
Fades should die in a base assault like that. It's not their strength, they get stuck on geometry. And he was halfway in the base. A reasonable fade would bailed out long before he wandered down the stairs. Showing a very dumb fade die to 5 marines proves nothing at all.
For the record, that tunnel camp sequence really shows the problems marines are facing. They camped because they couldn't assault into all that static D. It was a reasonable play to set up an armory there. And in that scenario, the Fade wisely took them apart, one at a time, dealing out constant attrition.
Fades dominate map areas, and blunt offensive strikes by picking off marines. If it takes 5 marines to drive him off, where are the other 4 aliens? Dominating the map or eating your IPs.
So your solution is: I just need 5 marines for every Fade. Of course, I can never expand, since sending all my marines out in 5 unit clumps means I have no defense, but turtling is so much fun! More turrets! And I have no map control since I'll have at most 2 clumps of 5 marines, so my resource collectors will be constantly ambushed. So I'll make turret farms everywhere! Ugh. Terrible.
Lastly, friendly advice: chill with the namecalling. It weakens your argument. Ban people who complain about balance? Really? That's weaksauce.
Playing as both commanders I found the experience interesting.
Marine commander's dependance on personal res is WAY too high, and the marines don't need nearly as much as comm. (ARCs, MACs, Ammo, Meds and weapons all cost personal res)
Alien commander's dependance on personal res is zero. You end up piling a massive amount of res that just doesn't get used, not that it feels like a problem. Also once you hit 3-4 extractors the hives just do not have enough energy to infest + pump drifters to keep team res down. (Even off 4 hives, there is nothing you can do to spend that res =\)
I think a good start would be that Marine RFK goes to the commander's personal resources. Marine RT's are enough to grab weapons, and in hard times comm could drop the spares. But having to stop supporting marines so that you can build ARCs to push seems broken. Also MACs should cost RF energy, not personal resources, while useful they don't really justify the personal res you need to make them.
<!--quoteo(post=1850913:date=Jun 8 2011, 09:44 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Jun 8 2011, 09:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1850913"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Personally, I too think that improved performance will help the marines significantly more than the aliens. I also feel like Skulk leap is a problem although I'm not sure what to do about it yet. It might become an upgrade, or it might come with two hives, but giving it to all skulks all the time is quite a problem for marines.
The biggest problem I want to address right now is stalemates (with marines holed up on their base). I might put in Gorge bile bomb again but there are other ways to solve it too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The issue is really that early leap kind of removes some amount of tactics from the game becaue alien team can be "anywhere" from the square one.
However without either leap <i>or</i> skill-based movement, the skulks are mince meat to marines. NS1 had great balance because, skill-based movement system, also known as bunnyhop, didn't give skulks massive mobility but made melee combat fun, balanced and challenging. It also makes baserushing a very easy strat.
<a href="http://www.ninelegends.com/the-argument-for-bunnyhopping/" target="_blank">Bring back bunnyhop!</a>
What little experience I have with other skill-based movement systems, they fall far off from bunnyhop in terms of depth. I also think aliens should have an ability to destroy structures. Covering a biling gorge or doing a bile rush was an important part of NS1. It required coordination and teamwork. I also think gorge should have its bile bomb back enabled by 2nd hive, just for the sake of making gorge more useful. However I don't think it will solve much of the late game stalemate situation.
The stalemates are not really fun gameplay, in this case they are caused by the fact the commander does not use carbon for medpacks or ammo, given enough time the commander will afford all upgrades and then he starts spamming turrets..
Also in NS1, aliens could get 3 hives, 2nd hive brought the game to a "new level" since skulks got leap, fades got metabolize, gorges got the bile bomb and lerks got umbra, 3rd hive made aliens very strong and helped to end the game. Indeed, acid rockets, webs, xenocides, onos charge and primal scream asically meant the game could be ended in a reasonable time. They were both fun to use and made hive building more interesting and an important part of the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1851089:date=Jun 9 2011, 04:27 AM:name=Squidget)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squidget @ Jun 9 2011, 04:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1851089"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->All your video shows is that Fades who fight 5 marines with shotgunners and flamethrowers can be killed... barely. And any less than that, and the Fade won't die.
Fades should die in a base assault like that. It's not their strength, they get stuck on geometry. And he was halfway in the base. A reasonable fade would bailed out long before he wandered down the stairs. Showing a very dumb fade die to 5 marines proves nothing at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
marines have squads for a reason. and it proves that fades arent "overpowered", marines 1 on 1 against almost any alien should die the majority of the time.. so how is it unreasonable that a 50 res lifeform be powerful enough to use hit and run tactics if said player uses the class smart. whats your excuse for the 2nd fade that died a minute or so later when he met up with a squad by the powernode. if the marines had actually hit the fade he wouldve died sooner, but the only players hitting the fade were the lmger and the ft'er. the shotgunner was shooting the wall most of the time (hint: you can see the impact sparks).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For the record, that tunnel camp sequence really shows the problems marines are facing. They camped because they couldn't assault into all that static D. It was a reasonable play to set up an armory there. And in that scenario, the Fade wisely took them apart, one at a time, dealing out constant attrition.
Fades dominate map areas, and blunt offensive strikes by picking off marines. If it takes 5 marines to drive him off, where are the other 4 aliens? Dominating the map or eating your IPs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
was no static d, the lerk was gassing them and instead of pushing in, their com decided to set up a forward base. sometimes this is a good tactic, right now its not so much most of the time because marines are missing their advanced tech. if by static d you mean the 2-3 hydras they had and maybe a crag then yes that technically is static d but not something that shoulde taken that entire marine team to destroy. i didnt see one gl that entire sequence. and honestly its the coms job to coordinate squads. the marines had another squad elsewhere on the map.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So your solution is: I just need 5 marines for every Fade. Of course, I can never expand, since sending all my marines out in 5 unit clumps means I have no defense, but turtling is so much fun! More turrets! And I have no map control since I'll have at most 2 clumps of 5 marines, so my resource collectors will be constantly ambushed. So I'll make turret farms everywhere! Ugh. Terrible.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> no my solution is teamwork and actually hitting your targets instead of knee-jerk reactions to a new gameplay mechanic. that video proved once and for all that one fade CANNOT kill an entire marine squad by himself no matter how many times you people stubbornly say it. no where in that video do you see a fade go in, attack by himself, and kill every last marine. what you did see however is a coordinated attack that put down 3 fades in the span of a 2-3 minutes. so whats your solution for the "overpowered fade". since hit and running makes it unbalanced. take away blink? because thats where youre really going.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Lastly, friendly advice: chill with the namecalling. It weakens your argument. Ban people who complain about balance? Really? That's weaksauce.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
balance? saying fade is overpowered without proving otherwise IS whining. balance at this stage is laughable as marines DONT HAVE ALL UPGRADES YET. so your solution is to nerf the fade so that its completely useless when marines get exosuits? as it is RIGHT NOW, squads (this is a GAMEPLAY MECHANIC) can easily kill a fade if they dont use smart tactics. so you want to throw that out the window, nerf fade, and when exosuits are introduced, make fades completely unplayable. wheres the "balance" in that. like i said in a previous post. join a server, make a vid of a fade killing an entire squad by himself. otherwise, quit complaining about balance when the actual gameplay proved it's tactics that are killing marine teams not imaginary "uberfades".
<!--quoteo(post=1851107:date=Jun 9 2011, 01:29 PM:name=Jiriki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jiriki @ Jun 9 2011, 01:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1851107"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><a href="http://www.ninelegends.com/the-argument-for-bunnyhopping/" target="_blank">Bring back bunnyhop!</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Most of the arguments in that article seem to revolve around "if you're pro you'll learn how to deal with it." While that's true it's not a good way to promote your game to a broader fanbase. Not all of us want to spend time learning to deal with glitching movement or learn strange key combinations to move at our optimal speed.
Getting from point a to b at speed should not require repetitive unintuitive key-combos, especially not if it only applies to one single character class on one team.
I'm all for having an 'in-between' agility boost for skulks early on instead of giving them leap straight away (I always thought celerity filled that gap nicely) but purposely implementing some ancient glitch seems like a terrible idea.
The skill, imo, should be in knowing how to approach your target, not how well you can abuse the game's flawed physics.
The problem is that talking about the Fade is hard because right now Marine aiming and moving feeld really "clunky" and especially aiming is sometimes just pure luck on my machine (not a bad one btw). Many to most times I miss because the games seems to tear/lag when moving the aim or shooting and sometimes it just feels like you would have got that Fade/Lerk if performance was fluid and smooth. Which in many cases it is not (at least for me). But from reading other peoples posts it seems that now with some of the hitreg-issues gone for aliens the Marine team seems to be the one with hit-reg issues, due to performance issues as it seems. When that is fixed I think we can talk about "real" balance (although I think the Fade blink and healt needs a bit "looking into") But right now it really seems to be in favor of Alines. At least I have only seen stalemates or Aliens win. But I have only played little, so maybe thats subject to change.
Comments
The only map that I played on last night that seemed to give marines a chance was summit because the hives were much further away from marine start which gave the marines a chance to get out before being pinned in.
One thing that I think could really help out marines with the res issue is to have marines drop their guns when killed and allow others to pick them up like in NS1.
Most of the time i was waiting around with a lmg trying to fight off fades for 4 or 5 deaths till i could afford a shotgun but then i would be the only one on the team with a upgraded weapon and die almost straight away again.
I remember in NS1 where weapons were valuable and players would try keeping a hmg alive by picking it up and dropping it until another player came back to pick it up.
The problem lies solely within hydra spam and corresponding fps drops which mostly affect shooters.
Fix the performance, reg and stuff and we'll talk again.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was Alien com today: 1Crag 2 Hydras 1 Whip 2 Sentrys on Server. Ticks were at 4.
15 crags 5 whips around 15 Hydras 7 Sentrys. Ticks were at 12 on a other Server.
Both 6 vs 6 and both in lategame ( around 1 hour).
Hydras aren't the Problem!
Why not make leap cost more adrenaline initially so you can only leap once before having to nearly full-recharge, until you either get an upgrade or build a second hive or whatever?
res cap seriously needs to be added, both to personal res and commander res. I hate seeing res overflowing like this.
The thing costs 50 res of course it's going to rip to shread solo marines.
res cap seriously needs to be added, both to personal res and commander res. I hate seeing res overflowing like this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think the 999 res cap is that bad. The game I mentioned was a 2 hour game where the marines owned all the res nodes for 1 hour straight, but couldn't finish the last hive. Odd thing was, it seemed to be stuck at 999 and never went down. Maybe the game kept track of how much res we had, but just displays 999 if it's 1000 or more.
you might of found a bug if it kept displaying 999, I've not come across this before though. I do know I usually end up with more res than I need.
Saying that you need 3 marines to kill 1 fade is hardly balanced, fades are hideously OP at the moment, the only reason they need to die is because they're careless, a cautious fade is effectively immortal and can still get kills or destroy structures very easily.
I suck as fade, and yet I can easily dominate the marines with it, because it has tonnes of health, does tonnes of damage on each hit, and can basically back out of any fight whenever it wants to.
Essentially I get between 5 and 10 seconds to try and hit a marine three times, then I go back to the hive, then I get another 5-10 seconds, with no res cost or anything, just by virtue of being a fade.
This is overpowered.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah yeah good old NS1 Fade Times. Cele/adre and focus. 4 Rines?? Why not 10 ^^.
The problem is, that only a combo ( SG's and Flamer) has a real chance vs Fade now. But the time till Aliens go Fade and Marines Flamer is too big, that Marines could handle Fades.
<!--quoteo(post=1850936:date=Jun 8 2011, 03:21 PM:name=luns)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (luns @ Jun 8 2011, 03:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1850936"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->those are problems which need to be addressed. I just don't agree we should cripple the class because of other broken parts of the game.
the fade starting to finally feel as he should be, more work is needed like air control said to be added. Also better momentum for his movement is needed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Will mean, Fades become easier to control and then even 6 Marines don't have a chance vs 1 Fade.
If the Fade can only blink like in a tunnel the Marine has a chance to know where the Fade "pops" up. With strafing and mousemovement they don't have the last chance to kill a Fade who whants to escape.
When someone says "oh, we just need the perfect, experienced, commander and for EVERYONE on the marine side to play in perfect harmony. Then we can beat some scrub aliens who play with no coordination", it drives me nuts. How in the hell is that balanced?
I also don't buy the argument about "commanders were better in NS1". I'm pretty sure most of us are NS1 veterans. The game ain't that damned complicated, I don't think all of us got dumb overnight. There's no radical new strat or steep learning curve. We know how this works by now. By this logic, marines should be doing BETTER than before the patch, because it's more like NS1 than build 177! You got your phase gates back! So the argument is bogus. After all, aliens are going to improve over time, too.
I will provide this caveat: when server pop dies down a little, these problems will shrink. Lag will diminish, helping marines, and shottie runs will probably work again due to low map control. But with big teams, I think there's a problem.
The problem is people have forgotten how to play marines!
You can no longer rambo as marines since aliens can actually land hits now...
Marines must work as units just like they did in NS1 you have to check blind spots cover each others backs not block line of fire etc etc...
With the introduction of phase gates marines need to capitalise on this..
In short start playing marines properly now otherwise your going to get owned.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1
finally a decent non crying overblown whine post
1 skulk + 1 marine = 1 skulk.
2 skulks + 2 marines = tossup.
3 skulks + 3 marines = 3 marines.
Just everyone is used to the shotgun doing far more damage and melee hits being FAR more difficult, and hasn't adapted again yet.
I'm sure there's something to the hit registry making melee easy and bullets hard, too, as I suck at skulk but was going on rampages.
I do think the Marines need to step up and start taking advantage of the tools they're getting in this patch, but I'll have to play some more games on that side and see how things go. if you just can't hit aliens, then every alien is going to be OP.
As for people complaining about combos needed vs fades? That's absolutely fine. You wouldn't take LMG's against an NS1 fade, you'd need at least one shotgunner, preferrably two. Big units should be hard to kill. If something WORKS vs fades (as this shotgun + flamer appears to), don't complain if you don't feel like using it.
Things might get rebalanced, but for now figure out what's effective and capitalize on it. Finding out what can beat something that's "OP" is an important part of finding balance.
right now its at 480 but slowly going to 720, its about 7 minutes long
proof > whining.
right now its at 480 but slowly going to 720, its about 7 minutes long
proof > whining.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
maybe it's me but your vid seems to reinforce the complaints if anything (although i stopped watching a few minutes in). the first fade to die ran into the middle of the marine's base with several guys and sentries shooting him. and the second died after taking several seconds worth of fire from 5? marines. now if you'd like, you could record me as i 1v1 a fade with a shotty :P.
0:15 - 2 marines enter the room, fade blinks behind shotgunner. shotgunner with poor tracking misses the fade directly behind him (while his flamer backup runs off.. ) not overpowered there just poor marine tactics. and yea you mentioned the fade running into MS, he died like he shouldve. now if the commander had been a little more aggressive the marines wouldnt have been overwhelmed near the end. it took 3 fades to clear them out tho. not overpowered, just takes getting used to.
I second this.
The video seems to prove the opposite. Watched the whole thing and saw marines kill 2 fades and the fades kill 6-7 marines. The only times marines were successful were either 1) the fade attacked a heavily sentried room or 2) the odds were stacked in the marines favor (i.e. it took 5 marines to kill 1 fade).
Also, the flamethrower seems to be ineffective in preventing fades from blinking. Since blink has been changed from draining a discrete to continuous amount of energy, a fade can jump in, kill a marine, and still have enough energy to do a 1s blink out of danger even while on fire. Maybe it should be switched to prevent the fade from entering blink instead of just preventing the recharge of energy.
RFK is always going to favour Aliens more in the early game than Marines. Thats because early game aliens can spend their res on upgrades that enhance their combat abilities far more than what marines can do. A Fade is much, much more of an upgrade from a Skulk than a Shotgun is from a Rifle. Late game, a Marine could outfit themselves with a Flamethrower and Exosuit to multiply their combat effectiveness many times, though whether it provides the same multiplication as an Onos is up for debate, given that neither setup is in the game yet. Regardless, an Alien player who gains resources early game can spend them on much nastier upgrades than a marine can.
Much more worrying is the fact that a single decent Fade gives the Alien team almost total map control. A lone Marine will find it hard to take down one res node before an alien or two shows up to take him out. A Fade by contrast can take out nodes and defeat small forces that show up to try and drive him off. That Fade also has far more mobility than the marines have, allowing him to move anywhere on the map extremely quickly. Marines can only move in numbers, which greatly reduces their ability to project themselves onto the map and gain more resources. The alien team is free to tech and expand at their leisure, knowing that the chance of them being challenged is very low. The marines are kept on edge, too nervous to go out (and feed the Fades more resources so that if by chance they take one down, the player can just go Fade again anyway) and unable to gain much of a foothold. Eventually the alien team simply overwhelms them with superiour tech and resources.
All this wouldn't nessessarily a problem if Fades showed up when they're supposed to: mid game. Fades are a Tier 2 organism, just like Armour 2/Weapons 2, GLs and Flamethrowers are Tier 2 Marine upgrades (Tier 3 being Exo, JP, Onos obviously. Borrowing Starcraft terminology here but with good reason, it fits). In other words, Fades should be showing up when the Marine team has the resources to take them on, assuming both sides tech and gain resources at similar rates (and theorically, they should, given that the resource gathering methods are identical, assuming relatively equal levels of teamwork and skill on both sides). Res for Kills throws this all out the window, which is precisely why I hated it in NS1 and why I decry it's entry into NS2. Now players can (and do) go Fade much, much earlier than they should be. Small wonder they're carving Marines teams up. I find it utterly astonishing that in the dev team's thoughts on RFK's introduction they made no mention of this as a downside (and having read through their thoughts on this matter, I'd be even more astonished if they took RFK out given that they seem to think it's the best thing since sliced bread). Nerfing the Fade isn't the answer; RFK is and always has been the issue here.
Give it time. No way you've experimented around it enough at this point. Is it imbalanced? Probably, but give it a week at the very least. Discussion is good, but I can't see anyone forming a substantial understanding of the issue in a couple of days of public play - it's way too early for any conclusions. Right now you should be throwing around ideas and strategies rather than complaining. Play super aggressive, play super defensive, try some crazy economy thingy or so. At this point I'd probably first try to figure out ways to abuse the time before fades are in. Force the aliens to invest more earlier on and you'll have fewer fades on a later timing.
The change in res model causes fewer aliens to spend res on building, which leads to more lifeforms in general. Combine that with the newbie friendly leap and RFK and at least on lower levels you've got a plenty of lifeforms quite early. Depending a bit on how onos and lerk find their roles, I wouldn't find it impossible that a public game has nearly 10 players getting possibility to fade nearly simultaneously (RFK and individual upgrade purchases break up the timing to some extend at least). Is the game supposed to be balanced around that or is there some plan on sidestepping this?
I think blink will probably still need something though. Right now it adds extra challenge for marines while it still seems less dynamic and skill intense for aliens than the NS1 counterpart. At that point you're going to have pretty nasty time scaling it to higher levels of play where marines can actually hit the bloody thing.
The video seems to prove the opposite. Watched the whole thing and saw marines kill 2 fades and the fades kill 6-7 marines. The only times marines were successful were either 1) the fade attacked a heavily sentried room or 2) the odds were stacked in the marines favor (i.e. it took 5 marines to kill 1 fade).
Also, the flamethrower seems to be ineffective in preventing fades from blinking. Since blink has been changed from draining a discrete to continuous amount of energy, a fade can jump in, kill a marine, and still have enough energy to do a 1s blink out of danger even while on fire. Maybe it should be switched to prevent the fade from entering blink instead of just preventing the recharge of energy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
uh what? what sentries.... LOL
wanna know why it took so many marines to kill one, because they kept missing constantly and were terrible backup.
watch 6:09 onward. stupid tactics. marine is 1 ft away building a PG while the other marine gets destroyed by a fade (yes a fade vs 1 marine = marine SHOULD be dead ALWAYS). seriously, thats why SQUADS are in the game.
obviously you didnt watch the vid but ill point out each scene for you.
0:12 - 2 marines enter the room, one has shotgun other has ft. fade proceedes to blink behind shotgunner as he should. ft carrier runs off forward in search of gorge, leaving LONE SHOTGUNNER to fight fade. fade OF COURSE kills shotgunner and proceeds to attack ft carrier. ft carrier drains fade of energy and lives when another shotgunner enters room.
0:56 - fade enters marine start (NO turrets btw) and gets clobbered by heavily armed marines in about 3 seconds.
1:24 - marine squad enters a room while a fade is attacking power node. gorge in tow. marines have 1 ft and shotguns and a lmger. fade decides to attack so smartly he blinks behind them and uses the "overpowered" skill of ATTACKING FROM BEHIND. solid marine squad uses ft and movement tactics to stay alive and chase the fade off. 1 lone marine (prolly a ns1 vet) recognizes this tactic and chases him down. because of the ft and multiple hits lone marine is able to pistol fade and kill fade. (again... no turrets involved)
1:51 - marines for some reason start the long hallway camp.
they are there for the rest of the video, takes multiple fades to clear them out.
does this sound overpowered? you whiners get annoying.
The biggest problem I want to address right now is stalemates (with marines holed up on their base). I might put in Gorge bile bomb again but there are other ways to solve it too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A slight change in map design solves stalemates. On summit for example we turtled up a long as we could but the power node is exposed on the right side. Once their lerks and suicide rushes took it out the game was over. Although power packs could have kept us going, it wasn't thought of at the time.
All your video shows is that Fades who fight 5 marines with shotgunners and flamethrowers can be killed... barely. And any less than that, and the Fade won't die.
Fades should die in a base assault like that. It's not their strength, they get stuck on geometry. And he was halfway in the base. A reasonable fade would bailed out long before he wandered down the stairs. Showing a very dumb fade die to 5 marines proves nothing at all.
For the record, that tunnel camp sequence really shows the problems marines are facing. They camped because they couldn't assault into all that static D. It was a reasonable play to set up an armory there. And in that scenario, the Fade wisely took them apart, one at a time, dealing out constant attrition.
Fades dominate map areas, and blunt offensive strikes by picking off marines. If it takes 5 marines to drive him off, where are the other 4 aliens? Dominating the map or eating your IPs.
So your solution is: I just need 5 marines for every Fade. Of course, I can never expand, since sending all my marines out in 5 unit clumps means I have no defense, but turtling is so much fun! More turrets! And I have no map control since I'll have at most 2 clumps of 5 marines, so my resource collectors will be constantly ambushed. So I'll make turret farms everywhere! Ugh. Terrible.
Lastly, friendly advice: chill with the namecalling. It weakens your argument. Ban people who complain about balance? Really? That's weaksauce.
Marine commander's dependance on personal res is WAY too high, and the marines don't need nearly as much as comm. (ARCs, MACs, Ammo, Meds and weapons all cost personal res)
Alien commander's dependance on personal res is zero. You end up piling a massive amount of res that just doesn't get used, not that it feels like a problem. Also once you hit 3-4 extractors the hives just do not have enough energy to infest + pump drifters to keep team res down. (Even off 4 hives, there is nothing you can do to spend that res =\)
I think a good start would be that Marine RFK goes to the commander's personal resources. Marine RT's are enough to grab weapons, and in hard times comm could drop the spares. But having to stop supporting marines so that you can build ARCs to push seems broken. Also MACs should cost RF energy, not personal resources, while useful they don't really justify the personal res you need to make them.
The biggest problem I want to address right now is stalemates (with marines holed up on their base). I might put in Gorge bile bomb again but there are other ways to solve it too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The issue is really that early leap kind of removes some amount of tactics from the game becaue alien team can be "anywhere" from the square one.
However without either leap <i>or</i> skill-based movement, the skulks are mince meat to marines. NS1 had great balance because, skill-based movement system, also known as bunnyhop, didn't give skulks massive mobility but made melee combat fun, balanced and challenging. It also makes baserushing a very easy strat.
<a href="http://www.ninelegends.com/the-argument-for-bunnyhopping/" target="_blank">Bring back bunnyhop!</a>
What little experience I have with other skill-based movement systems, they fall far off from bunnyhop in terms of depth. I also think aliens should have an ability to destroy structures. Covering a biling gorge or doing a bile rush was an important part of NS1. It required coordination and teamwork. I also think gorge should have its bile bomb back enabled by 2nd hive, just for the sake of making gorge more useful. However I don't think it will solve much of the late game stalemate situation.
The stalemates are not really fun gameplay, in this case they are caused by the fact the commander does not use carbon for medpacks or ammo, given enough time the commander will afford all upgrades and then he starts spamming turrets..
Also in NS1, aliens could get 3 hives, 2nd hive brought the game to a "new level" since skulks got leap, fades got metabolize, gorges got the bile bomb and lerks got umbra, 3rd hive made aliens very strong and helped to end the game. Indeed, acid rockets, webs, xenocides, onos charge and primal scream asically meant the game could be ended in a reasonable time. They were both fun to use and made hive building more interesting and an important part of the game.
Fades should die in a base assault like that. It's not their strength, they get stuck on geometry. And he was halfway in the base. A reasonable fade would bailed out long before he wandered down the stairs. Showing a very dumb fade die to 5 marines proves nothing at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
marines have squads for a reason. and it proves that fades arent "overpowered", marines 1 on 1 against almost any alien should die the majority of the time.. so how is it unreasonable that a 50 res lifeform be powerful enough to use hit and run tactics if said player uses the class smart. whats your excuse for the 2nd fade that died a minute or so later when he met up with a squad by the powernode. if the marines had actually hit the fade he wouldve died sooner, but the only players hitting the fade were the lmger and the ft'er. the shotgunner was shooting the wall most of the time (hint: you can see the impact sparks).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For the record, that tunnel camp sequence really shows the problems marines are facing. They camped because they couldn't assault into all that static D. It was a reasonable play to set up an armory there. And in that scenario, the Fade wisely took them apart, one at a time, dealing out constant attrition.
Fades dominate map areas, and blunt offensive strikes by picking off marines. If it takes 5 marines to drive him off, where are the other 4 aliens? Dominating the map or eating your IPs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
was no static d, the lerk was gassing them and instead of pushing in, their com decided to set up a forward base. sometimes this is a good tactic, right now its not so much most of the time because marines are missing their advanced tech. if by static d you mean the 2-3 hydras they had and maybe a crag then yes that technically is static d but not something that shoulde taken that entire marine team to destroy. i didnt see one gl that entire sequence. and honestly its the coms job to coordinate squads. the marines had another squad elsewhere on the map.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So your solution is: I just need 5 marines for every Fade. Of course, I can never expand, since sending all my marines out in 5 unit clumps means I have no defense, but turtling is so much fun! More turrets! And I have no map control since I'll have at most 2 clumps of 5 marines, so my resource collectors will be constantly ambushed. So I'll make turret farms everywhere! Ugh. Terrible.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
no my solution is teamwork and actually hitting your targets instead of knee-jerk reactions to a new gameplay mechanic. that video proved once and for all that one fade CANNOT kill an entire marine squad by himself no matter how many times you people stubbornly say it. no where in that video do you see a fade go in, attack by himself, and kill every last marine. what you did see however is a coordinated attack that put down 3 fades in the span of a 2-3 minutes. so whats your solution for the "overpowered fade". since hit and running makes it unbalanced. take away blink? because thats where youre really going.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Lastly, friendly advice: chill with the namecalling. It weakens your argument. Ban people who complain about balance? Really? That's weaksauce.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
balance? saying fade is overpowered without proving otherwise IS whining. balance at this stage is laughable as marines DONT HAVE ALL UPGRADES YET. so your solution is to nerf the fade so that its completely useless when marines get exosuits? as it is RIGHT NOW, squads (this is a GAMEPLAY MECHANIC) can easily kill a fade if they dont use smart tactics. so you want to throw that out the window, nerf fade, and when exosuits are introduced, make fades completely unplayable. wheres the "balance" in that. like i said in a previous post. join a server, make a vid of a fade killing an entire squad by himself. otherwise, quit complaining about balance when the actual gameplay proved it's tactics that are killing marine teams not imaginary "uberfades".
Most of the arguments in that article seem to revolve around "if you're pro you'll learn how to deal with it." While that's true it's not a good way to promote your game to a broader fanbase. Not all of us want to spend time learning to deal with glitching movement or learn strange key combinations to move at our optimal speed.
Getting from point a to b at speed should not require repetitive unintuitive key-combos, especially not if it only applies to one single character class on one team.
I'm all for having an 'in-between' agility boost for skulks early on instead of giving them leap straight away (I always thought celerity filled that gap nicely) but purposely implementing some ancient glitch seems like a terrible idea.
The skill, imo, should be in knowing how to approach your target, not how well you can abuse the game's flawed physics.
When that is fixed I think we can talk about "real" balance (although I think the Fade blink and healt needs a bit "looking into") But right now it really seems to be in favor of Alines. At least I have only seen stalemates or Aliens win. But I have only played little, so maybe thats subject to change.