<!--quoteo(post=1851459:date=Jun 10 2011, 06:55 AM:name=Squidget)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squidget @ Jun 10 2011, 06:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1851459"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I wish you'd read what I actually say, instead of what you want to see. Let's try this again.
Hi, I'm Squidget, experienced NS2 player, including commanding. I play both sides.
I'm unhappy with 178. If feel it's unbalanced, so much so that the game isn't fun for me. Moreover, the game tends to devolve into sentry fests, no matter who wins.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> sentries are used on bigger maps to hold areas captured by marines. thats not going to change. on bigger maps, marines cant advance enough because once again, they dont have the tech to move out fast enough. smaller maps = easier map control. its up to the marine commander to decide which choke points/areas to hold to maximize marine expansion.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I know that other patches will add more stuff. But that doesn't help me in the short term, because the game isn't fun. I want the game to be at least reasonably fun over the next few weeks and months. So I figured I'd make a post asking for suggestions, maybe I missed something. I wasn't whining, I was looking for solutions. I did not suggest Fades get nerfed or buffed, or change roles. I didn't suggest ANYTHING. I asked for help.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
your opinion is the game isnt fun, what about the others that are having a really good time playing the beta as is? should the devs cater to just you? the only solutions available are to play the game and learn good strategies to win, which is moot because those strategies will change on the next beta. so on and so forth. right now, marines dont coordinate attacks good enough because of the "newness" of the beta. once players get the hang of the new features then we'll see marines winning more. this is backed up by the number of wins generated by aliens as they dont need to coordinate attacks, but doing so helps.. a fade can hit and run, a solo marine cant. a solo marine will almost never survive trying to hit and run. thats where the ninja term came from kinda. sneaking is a better strat for a marine than running down a corridor with a shotgun. my suggestion is to get pgs up quickly, hold a few resource areas. tech up and use smart placement of turrets while containing the aliens into a small area (yes, map control is possible with marine teams).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That can't be right. If marines can't win fights on equal numbers, and the teams are forced to have equal number of players... then the only way marines win fights is if aliens never coordinate to make the fights equal. NS1 isnt NS2: aliens have a comm now. Aliens can now coordinate just as well as marines can, aliens can use just as much teamwork as marines can. If what you say is true, the balance is screwed, because marines don't have a teamwork advantage anymore.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> which is why i dont agree with having an alien commander. wasnt my choice, that was the devs that decided to implement this. imo the gorge needs this role back. but thats not going to happen. right now gorge is almost useless, whereas the gorge used to be a very important class. without the gorge the aliens didnt expand, period. marines can win if they hit their targets, capture resources and tech up. marines lose when they are either outskilled by aliens or have poor strategy. marines still have the teamwork advantage because they right now have what it takes to win. the only class that should give marines fits right now are lerks as they really have no counter to the gas attack other than medspam. the old counter to this was the heavy armor/medspam+welding. I mean, marines dont even need to capture another com area to get more weapons. if each marine squad has a few shotguns with a flamethrower, that alone should get marines around the map fine. after that its up to the com to determine position and a winning strategy.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Let's assume the comm isn't a total noob and can find the armor button, because you are obviously hosed in that case. No argument. But that alone can't explain that 83% loss rate.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
poor marine strats on larger maps are the cause of the increase of losses. you cant sit on the left side of the map and hold 50% of the resouces anymore.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have no idea what "launch phasegates" means, or what it means to know where a hive is "in relation to a squad." Please explain.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
placing phasegates in areas where there is cover, like not in the middle of a hallway. and positioning a squad in either a forward area with a pg, armory or whatever. or just not sending marines into an area they cant hold early on due to hive position (alien reinforcements picking off marines 1 by 1 until they are all dead, because marines cant reinforce fast enough to hold an area).
Many of you are seriously making me weep for our chances of ever getting this company to do a similar "play-as-we-go" style of development in any of their future games. I remember my attitude toward it has always been "do it! players are mature enough to understand it's an alpha/beta and forgive it its flaws! you'll generate word-of-mouth interest and credibility as a grassroots community-oriented developer!"
Sure enough, there are plenty of people giving its ongoing beta status some terse lip service, but just before unloading on balance/performance issues as if they were in danger of becoming forgotten, ignored, or otherwise set in stone. I've played NS1 since it was first released, and there were tons of problems in the beginning. You'd join a server, and everyone had 1000+ pings and horrendous performance. Seriously. It got fixed quickly and then went on to become one of the top HL1 mods ever, due largely to how refined and balanced the gameplay was, which brings me to my next point.
There would be a 'favorite team' to win with each NS1 patch for a while too, which certainly held very true sometimes, but soon true in the same sense that Terrans were 'overpowered' in StarCraft. Might've been true, and statistics showed team X had a slight edge in wins, but it was still often anyone's game since a team's aggregate skill was much more of a determining factor. Even these slight differences faded with time, I feel. Point is, no one should be expecting anything approaching perfection this far out. NS1 underwent several iterations of resource models which saw alien players (for example) transition between favoring a "who cares" model of gorge deployment, to "only 1 gorge! NOBODY ELSE GO GORGE, YOU FOOLS!", to a "WE NEED MORE GORGES!" model. Radical balance changes in this game often amount to something as simple as tweaking a couple dozen integer values, all of which will also probably be accessible to anyone wishing to host a modded server. So chill.
Edit: And I'm far from an apologist for this company. I thought the several years that the forums were hacked and offline was a total fiasco which killed off a very large and vibrant community. There was that Ready Room fan website, but it was always shutting down and being "reborn" every few months. There was nowhere to go. That was by far their biggest mistake, and could've easily been handled much better. I questioned whether they would even be able to make good on their promise to finish this game, especially after the restart. I *just* pre-ordered the other day because I felt build 178 was finally enough progress to have a reasonable expectation that they can see this through to a successful release.
If we are not to criticize the beta, then what are we to do with it? Sure, there are a lot of people crying out for a re-balance, but then you must recognize, there are a lot of people in the open beta. Proportionally, there is the same amount of people crying for re-balance now as there would be if it were just 1000 players or 100 players. There are more people complaining about it, because it's important to them that the game feels fair.
The most important thing to me, is not the balance of the fade vs marine, but the timing (something which can be carried forward into future builds without upsetting the balance) - time the release of fades so marine have a fighting chance and this will carry forward to future builds and remain balanced.
Fair enough, Zuriki. I'm just pointing out that people aren't patiently pointing out areas where there's room for improvement so much as lamenting this "broken game" they're stuck with. A good number of these posts cross the line from constructive criticism to ######. They're acting like this is a release candidate build of the game and crying about the deplorable state it's been left in. You think the devs aren't aware of the performance problems, especially by now? I heard about them and I hadn't even taken up following the game again; I just picked up that information from the background radiation of gaming news propagating across the Internet. I think the 6 guys whose immediate livelihoods depend on the success of this game are aware of it. Get a little tired of hearing it, to be frank.
I don't think I need to say that now is hardly the time to bring up balance issues when all the game features haven't even been fully implemented yet. I don't get irrationally attached/obsessed with games or developers, and still I can say that for those with the patience to stick it out, this game will be a real treat. If you go back to NS1, it was lightyears ahead of other mods in terms of polish and sophistication, even including official mods like CS/DoD and the original HL1 itself. No one would've batted an eyelid if it had seen a standalone release on store shelves. If the developers get to the publishing stage, it's a given that the game will be good; that much I've been sure of.
<!--quoteo(post=1851464:date=Jun 10 2011, 07:23 AM:name=Squidget)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squidget @ Jun 10 2011, 07:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1851464"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You forgot to say HOW. What strategy did you have?
Sigh.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ok, first of all we had a great communicative comm who used waypoints aswell as coordinate us with his voice (and the whole marine team trusted the comm and followed his instructions, no ramboing etc.)
We rushed for PGs, sent a squad of 3 (me included) to fortify and hold heliport while the PG tech was researching. The other squad held the other half of the map from being overrun and made occasional pushes to keep aliens busy. While fortifying we covered eachother etc. While moving we never went on our own, at least 2 marines together, never 1 alone. We got our PG up at heliport and then proceeded to assult towards the main Hive with groups of 4-6 marines (was 8vs8), the PGs ensured we could travel to the important places over the map almost instantaneously. During this the Aliens dropped a hatch on the other side of the map, and we sent 2 shottys 1 lmg to take it out before it complete while the rest of us pushed towards the main Hive. We downed the Hive and then it was just a continuos push into the alien main Hive and finally a victory. It was an awesome game!
Countering Fades are quite easy really, you can:
Prevent them from ever coming by taking out RTs early and/or deny Alien additional Hives (which has a high cost and 3 min build time)
Move (at least) 3 marines in a squad with at least 1 FT, 1FT/1shotty/1lmg is quite a nice combo. FT keeps fade from blinking around, shotty kill him in close combat and the lmg from afar. Oh, and this requires the marines to actually land most of their hits as well;)
Tech was PG->shottys-> GL/FT (not sure which came first)
Isnt it the marines who ultimately control the pacing of the aliens? I dont think we should always kneejerk blame the devs when we percieve unfair gameplay. Especially in a game like ns2 where the relationships on the micro and macro levels are very much intertwined and rely heavily on teamwork. Work together as a team aggressively pressuring the aliens to prevent early 2nd hive - and someone said before to pressure alien RTs. I feel the micro side of fade vs marine is not too bad, fades SHOULD be deadly. The problem is not so much fades being strong but the marines <b>allowing</b> aliens to get multiple fades so early on.
Stalemates are really more of a problem than fades. Sentry spam in marine start should = a loss. Even without bilebombs, sniper/gas lerks make short work of them and in games where our team has sentry spammed, the aliens simply dont lerk.
I remember the effectiveness of tight sg rushes in ns1. 8 shotgunning marines with med pack support is a force to be reckoned with - aliens and hives go down fast. Marines start with a fair bit of p res already. I really dont see whats stopping marine early game domination other than lack of team co-ordination. I mean we have sprint!... and siege cannons..!
Now I want you all to do this experiment. Take this URL...
<a href="http://unknownworldsstats.appspot.com/displayendgamestats?version=162" target="_blank">http://unknownworldsstats.appspot.com/disp...ats?version=162</a> and open it in the browser. and change the number on the end from 162 to 163 163 to 164 164 to ... (I hope you can fill in gaps...otherwise...more math for you) ... to 178
Yes Aliens are winning more now. (178) But you saw how the stats jumped around didn't you. This is why balance is left to the end.
And LOTS and LOTS of changes happened in this patch so no one can point to one or two things and say... ...that's the reason...nerf it. It is akin to blaming lightning on Zeus and Hera getting into a fight over Zeus's wandering pee-pee.
Now try something crazy type in the number .....179 ZOMG they are working on it.
So this patch fixed and added lots of things. and the game is a lot more fun and playable.
and another patch is coming :-) If you are not having fun...take a breather for a couple patches and come back.
Im loving the latest build it gives me the ns1 feel ive been missing in the previous builds. Just tonight had an unlikely win after main base was totalled from fades, we relo'd and pulled the win after a long 1 hr stalemate.
Hydra lag still a problem but meh. ARC damage needs to be improved, been seeing a few hydras withstand blasts from 2 arcs for a few mins (with gorge healing)>.> Loving the new fade blink, a hell of a lot less disorientating. More feared now that they can actually kill groups of marines with little problem.
<!--quoteo(post=1851514:date=Jun 11 2011, 02:40 AM:name=Delta1)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Delta1 @ Jun 11 2011, 02:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1851514"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Im loving the latest build it gives me the ns1 feel ive been missing in the previous builds. Just tonight had an unlikely win after main base was totalled from fades, we relo'd and pulled the win after a long 1 hr stalemate.
Hydra lag still a problem but meh. ARC damage needs to be improved, been seeing a few hydras withstand blasts from 2 arcs for a few mins (with gorge healing)>.> Loving the new fade blink, a hell of a lot less disorientating. More feared now that they can actually kill groups of marines with little problem.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Only reason you guys won is that the aliens got bored of trying to take your base at cross roads and we all left..
The game stalemates very easily now and give the way turrets, mac's and arc's work marines can build a base that the aliens currently cannot touch...
Of course this will change when more abilities come in..
QuovatisTeam InversionJoin Date: 2010-01-26Member: 70321Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
Unfortunately, looking at the design doc, things are just going to get worse for marines in the short term. I know balance isn't that high of a priority right now, but it needs to be at least "ballpark" balanced for playtesters to enjoy it at all. Right now aliens win 80% of the time. Slowing marines down on infestation, giving aliens energy regen on infestation, and bile bomb isn't going to help.
Since the main issue is on balance, here's the 4 major reasons for why aliens are dominating in the current build, imo.
[1] Fade Blink = Fade invul while blinking. Very easy for fade to escape, just blink. In NS1 the fade is still targetable while retreating, giving marines a chance to kill a fleeing fade.
suggested solution: make fade targetable while blinking, increase blink cooldown or energy use
[2] Aliens have mirror upgrades for damage and armour. In NS1 marines had the advantage of passive upgrades. Now, both aliens and marines can max out to L3 weapons/armour, effectively negating any marine advantage. Throw in that aliens can get crags and gorges for field healing, marines die even faster with less healing.
suggested solution: Only allow marine passive upgrades, or change alien passive upgrade to something else (e.g. energy regen, health regen, speed etc instead of armour/damage).
[3] Infestation currently is impossible to clear, takes too long for flamer.
suggested solution: None. Pustule system is in the works.
[4] Too much dependence on personal res, while income has reduced. Especially for marine commander - you can stock up to 500+ team res but since meds/ammo/robots all cost personal res, it slows the marines down too much in terms of weapons and goodies.
suggested solution: Make all commander abilities and structures cost team res only. Commander's personal res gets put into team res pool. Marines continue receiving personal res at a slower rate. Commander can use team res to drop extra weapons.
QuovatisTeam InversionJoin Date: 2010-01-26Member: 70321Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
Perhaps re-enable the extractor upgrades for personal res. Aliens seem to do fine, so this would only be for marines. MACs should cost energy and ARCs should cost team resources. As it is, both cost personal resources, which a commander can rarely afford right now.
<!--quoteo(post=1851549:date=Jun 10 2011, 12:47 PM:name=MistenTH)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MistenTH @ Jun 10 2011, 12:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1851549"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Since the main issue is on balance, here's the 4 major reasons for why aliens are dominating in the current build, imo.
[1] Fade Blink = Fade invul while blinking. Very easy for fade to escape, just blink. In NS1 the fade is still targetable while retreating, giving marines a chance to kill a fleeing fade.
suggested solution: make fade targetable while blinking, increase blink cooldown or energy use<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Or you could just set the Fade on flames and watch it crawl when the energy regeneration is almost non-existant.
<!--quoteo(post=1851549:date=Jun 10 2011, 12:47 PM:name=MistenTH)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MistenTH @ Jun 10 2011, 12:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1851549"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->[2] Aliens have mirror upgrades for damage and armour. In NS1 marines had the advantage of passive upgrades. Now, both aliens and marines can max out to L3 weapons/armour, effectively negating any marine advantage. Throw in that aliens can get crags and gorges for field healing, marines die even faster with less healing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So? Marines get medpack spam
<!--quoteo(post=1851549:date=Jun 10 2011, 12:47 PM:name=MistenTH)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MistenTH @ Jun 10 2011, 12:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1851549"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->suggested solution: Only allow marine passive upgrades, or change alien passive upgrade to something else (e.g. energy regen, health regen, speed etc instead of armour/damage).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
^ He obviously doesn't know anything about the games future content. He is trying to make balance decisions merely around the current state of the game. It would be a waste of man hours to try to balance the current game because not all of their content is actually out! Why not just chill your nips, the game is playable. let them introduce the new content, THAN balance.
<!--quoteo(post=1851575:date=Jun 10 2011, 07:36 PM:name=TravCarp)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TravCarp @ Jun 10 2011, 07:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1851575"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->^ He obviously doesn't know anything about the games future content. He is trying to make balance decisions merely around the current state of the game. It would be a waste of man hours to try to balance the current game because not all of their content is actually out! Why not just chill your nips, the game is playable. let them introduce the new content, THAN balance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It isn't playable though, because playing as marines is nothing but annoying. Because they're terrible.
It takes maybe five minutes to run through the alien classes and change the health and damage numbers to make the game more balanced, it doesn't have to be perfectly balanced but it would be more balanced. Even if you're conservative and just cut say 20% off of all lifeform health it'd still be pretty unbalanced in favour of aliens, but it'd be much better than the current, inexcusably lazy approach which is to just leave it as it is and entirely ignore the balance.
<!--quoteo(post=1851583:date=Jun 10 2011, 02:55 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jun 10 2011, 02:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1851583"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It isn't playable though, because playing as marines is nothing but annoying. Because they're terrible.
It takes maybe five minutes to run through the alien classes and change the health and damage numbers to make the game more balanced, it doesn't have to be perfectly balanced but it would be more balanced. Even if you're conservative and just cut say 20% off of all lifeform health it'd still be pretty unbalanced in favour of aliens, but it'd be much better than the current, inexcusably lazy approach which is to just leave it as it is and entirely ignore the balance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think it's alright the way it is now, maybe reduce fade damage a bit if they were to do anything temporarily for this current patch. It doesn't help trying to debate over balance when everything is not in. Especially when the jet pack and exo-suits will have a big impact on the game. Hell even the Skulk leap is going to be a research that the commander needs to get before default skulks can jump! Why waste time balancing now, and next patch, and next patch. On finite things that when you do release the rest of the content for your game, you have to go back and BALANCE everything again. Now I don't know how hard it is... maybe they're numbers on a notepad, maybe they're deep in code that takes time to change.
<!--quoteo(post=1851585:date=Jun 10 2011, 08:05 PM:name=TravCarp)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TravCarp @ Jun 10 2011, 08:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1851585"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think it's alright the way it is now, maybe reduce fade damage a bit if they were to do anything temporarily for this current patch. It doesn't help trying to debate over balance when everything is not in. Especially when the jet pack and exo-suits will have a big impact on the game. Hell even the Skulk leap is going to be a research that the commander needs to get before default skulks can jump! Why waste time balancing now, and next patch, and next patch. On finite things that when you do release the rest of the content for your game, you have to go back and BALANCE everything again. Now I don't know how hard it is... maybe they're numbers on a notepad, maybe they're deep in code that takes time to change.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They're numbers in a file.
In the bit of code that says what a fade is for example, there's a number that the programmers can find in a few seconds by pressing control F and it says how much health the fade has, and they can change it.
It isn't some mystical arcane constant which has to be appeased with virgin sacrifices to change it, you can quite literally do it in five minutes for all the alien classes.
It doesn't have to stay that way either, if you are going to ignore balance completely until the game is feature complete, you can write down what all the values are at the moment and put that in a file somewhere, then when you want to balance it, you can set them all right back to how they are now. Saying you aren't trying to balance it, so all of the values have to be completely preserved is kind of silly, if you aren't going for balance then the current values are just random rubbish which can be easily replaced, if the current values are a guess at what they should be when the game is feature complete, remember what they are and then put them in <i>when the game is feature complete</i>, Until then, make another five minute guess at values for the current state of the game.
The point of the beta is to test things, I can't test how practical the arc is when fades just murder everything. I can't test how balanced a map is when every game is a steamroller. ###### balance is detrimental to actually testing the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1851605:date=Jun 11 2011, 06:17 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jun 11 2011, 06:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1851605"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They're numbers in a file.
In the bit of code that says what a fade is for example, there's a number that the programmers can find in a few seconds by pressing control F and it says how much health the fade has, and they can change it.
It isn't some mystical arcane constant which has to be appeased with virgin sacrifices to change it, you can quite literally do it in five minutes for all the alien classes.
It doesn't have to stay that way either, if you are going to ignore balance completely until the game is feature complete, you can write down what all the values are at the moment and put that in a file somewhere, then when you want to balance it, you can set them all right back to how they are now. Saying you aren't trying to balance it, so all of the values have to be completely preserved is kind of silly, if you aren't going for balance then the current values are just random rubbish which can be easily replaced, if the current values are a guess at what they should be when the game is feature complete, remember what they are and then put them in <i>when the game is feature complete</i>, Until then, make another five minute guess at values for the current state of the game.
The point of the beta is to test things, I can't test how practical the arc is when fades just murder everything. I can't test how balanced a map is when every game is a steamroller. ###### balance is detrimental to actually testing the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I dno.. it only takes 3-4 shotgun hits to kill a fade. you know 1 v 1 your not suposed to be able kill one right. no armour upgrades? i dont think its a balance problem in that case.
A fade cost 50 res. It should be difficult for it to be killed. The game is perfectly playable right now. I played marines last night and went 22-5. One fade vs 2 marines (flamer/shotty) and its over. If its any other weapons, then a fade SHOULD kill them! Marines respawn as Marines. Fades respawn as skulks.
Its quite balanced once you learn to play the game. I was on a team of 3 fades (rest skulks) vs 6 marines. They came out with flamers and shotguns and absolutely lit us up. Flamer is key for fades.
Also, as Travcarp has already said countless times, wait until the rest of the content is released. Marines still have Jp's, Exo's, Hmg's and probably other toys coming.
In regards to the Arc, you're not missing out on much because its a ###### to navigate, often getting stuck before it even arrives to the target. Once it gets to the target, it decides to attack the hydras in the next room other than the Hive. Its buggy to say the least.
<!--quoteo(post=1851621:date=Jun 10 2011, 10:24 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Jun 10 2011, 10:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1851621"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I dno.. it only takes 3-4 shotgun hits to kill a fade. you know 1 v 1 your not suposed to be able kill one right. no armour upgrades? i dont think its a balance problem in that case.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And that's fine as soon as you implement autobalance which makes it so that marines always have twice as many players on their team as aliens.
<!--quoteo(post=1851624:date=Jun 10 2011, 10:31 PM:name=Wiltdog)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wiltdog @ Jun 10 2011, 10:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1851624"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, as Travcarp has already said countless times, wait until the rest of the content is released. Marines still have Jp's, Exo's, Hmg's and probably other toys coming.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But they don't have them <i>now</i>, and right <i>now</i> the balance is terrible, so implement the simple, partial fixes <i>now</i>.
I really don't care about what's coming, if you want me to enjoy the game currently based on what it will someday be, then you are essentially saying I should enjoy it because by that time skyrim will be out and I'll be playing that instead, if you're going to say 'yeah the game is pretty crap but wait until the full release' then what's the point of having an open beta?
<!--quoteo(post=1851632:date=Jun 10 2011, 04:54 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jun 10 2011, 04:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1851632"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And that's fine as soon as you implement autobalance which makes it so that marines always have twice as many players on their team as aliens.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why? A marine with shotgun can kill 6 skulks. WTF ALIENS NEED 6 TO 1 TEAMS TO BEAT A SHOTGUN, SHOTTY IS OP
<!--quoteo(post=1851605:date=Jun 10 2011, 03:17 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jun 10 2011, 03:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1851605"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They're numbers in a file.
...
The point of the beta is to test things, I can't test how practical the arc is when fades just murder everything. I can't test how balanced a map is when every game is a steamroller. ###### balance is detrimental to actually testing the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Funny; that was a big part of my argument in my last post concerning why they should not bother with balancing right now. Right now they're preoccupied with cramming new features in and making sure they work <i>at all</i>, not whether they have particularly good synergy with what's currently in the game.
I've got news for you: even if they did a feature freeze and reworked build 178 to have the most glorious, harmonious and balanced gameplay you'd ever seen, you still wouldn't be able to tell "how practical the arc is". What the devs giveth, the devs taketh away. It doesn't matter how good/bad the feature sounds in concept or at a testing stage. They could put in tactical nukes which cause 500 res, apply all kinds of fancy filter effects to the screen, and cause a great, dramatic orchestral track to echo throughout the entire map when it's launched, and still craft it in such a way that at release it does minimal damage, has minimal radius, and employs no DoT or debuffs from the lingering radiation. You still have no idea what the arc's going to be or how it will stack up until the final balancing act when the game is feature complete. It will doubtless be changed, and all your prior observations will be moot.
Any of you ever clicked on the Roboloab and saw some grey ufgrades for ARC like bigger splash and others? I think the ARC will be much powerfull than it is now.
Pathing is in fix and I'm sure targeting ( there is a attack buton on the ARC) improvement is also in work maybe even done.
Just wait till they implemented the Upgrades and then we may talk about balancing!
About the Fade. I played some games today and I learned how to handel the new Fade blink ( hearing at the blink, trying to estimate SOV of Fade, slash and blink counting, hearing the argh noise from the fade, strafing at the right time and more), sometime I even killed a Fade alone ( Server tick wer at 12 net_stats is always on. But a suported Fade or 2 of them knocks out bigger Marine Squads. That are my experiences.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1851667:date=Jun 10 2011, 05:26 PM:name=Arawn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arawn @ Jun 10 2011, 05:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1851667"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Funny; that was a big part of my argument in my last post concerning why they should not bother with balancing right now. Right now they're preoccupied with cramming new features in and making sure they work <i>at all</i>, not whether they have particularly good synergy with what's currently in the game.
I've got news for you: even if they did a feature freeze and reworked build 178 to have the most glorious, harmonious and balanced gameplay you'd ever seen, you still wouldn't be able to tell "how practical the arc is". What the devs giveth, the devs taketh away. It doesn't matter how good/bad the feature sounds in concept or at a testing stage. They could put in tactical nukes which cause 500 res, apply all kinds of fancy filter effects to the screen, and cause a great, dramatic orchestral track to echo throughout the entire map when it's launched, and still craft it in such a way that at release it does minimal damage, has minimal radius, and employs no DoT or debuffs from the lingering radiation. You still have no idea what the arc's going to be or how it will stack up until the final balancing act when the game is feature complete. It will doubtless be changed, and all your prior observations will be moot.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The most time consuming part of balancing is playtesting, not changing numbers in a file. Also, I don't think anyone arguing for some balancing is saying they should make it perfect, but good enough. I would define 'good enough' as balance that would lead neither side to win more than 60% of the time. However, its clear from both <a href="http://ns2.sorcerer.de/stats/" target="_blank">http://ns2.sorcerer.de/stats/</a> and <a href="http://unknownworldsstats.appspot.com/displayendgamestats?version=178" target="_blank">http://unknownworldsstats.appspot.com/disp...ats?version=178</a> that not only does B178 not have good enough balance, but that its gotten worse. In fact, it hasn't been since B168 that the alien win percentage was below 60%.
To that effect, I've gone and proposed <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=113740" target="_blank">three simple changes</a> that I think would help improve balance and gameplay for the short term. Eventually, many of these issues will be fixed by improved performance and new features, but NS2 is in desperate need for some short term fixes.
Probably one of the main reasons aliens are dominating the games is because RFK has almost completely broken the pacing.
In the beginning of the game its not so bad, but as it progresses and the resources from kills kept flowing in, there was such an excess of it that it allowed us to build so many crags, whips, and harvesters.
I've always said how much i didn't want to see RFK put into the game, and now that it has been we can now see how much it has done, typically in mid game i seen our team with 500 team resources, on both alien and marine sides, which just leads to a ludicrous amount of crags, whips, and turrets lagging and even furthering the game's stalemate.
Honestly i think so much of this patch's unbalances would be reduced if RFK was taken out. It makes harvesters essentially worthless in the long run and just leads to resource over-abundance that isn't helping the stalemate problem, but making it worse.
<!--quoteo(post=1851649:date=Jun 10 2011, 11:50 PM:name=Deadzone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Deadzone @ Jun 10 2011, 11:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1851649"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why? A marine with shotgun can kill 6 skulks. WTF ALIENS NEED 6 TO 1 TEAMS TO BEAT A SHOTGUN, SHOTTY IS OP<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, aliens need lerks, which cost about as much as a shotgunner, are available at the same time, and can combat them effectively. This is what is known as a counter.
Unless exosuits are going to be very cheap (and extremely effective) marines are going to need to spend a lot more than 50 res to beat a fade, and currently they don't have anything to combat them with except their non existant 2-1 numerical advantage, hence why I am suggesting a quick health slice.
<!--quoteo(post=1851741:date=Jun 11 2011, 09:07 AM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Jun 11 2011, 09:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1851741"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The most time consuming part of balancing is playtesting, not changing numbers in a file. Also, I don't think anyone arguing for some balancing is saying they should make it perfect, but good enough. I would define 'good enough' as balance that would lead neither side to win more than 60% of the time. However, its clear from both <a href="http://ns2.sorcerer.de/stats/" target="_blank">http://ns2.sorcerer.de/stats/</a> and <a href="http://unknownworldsstats.appspot.com/displayendgamestats?version=178" target="_blank">http://unknownworldsstats.appspot.com/disp...ats?version=178</a> that not only does B178 not have good enough balance, but that its gotten worse. In fact, it hasn't been since B168 that the alien win percentage was below 60%.
To that effect, I've gone and proposed <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=113740" target="_blank">three simple changes</a> that I think would help improve balance and gameplay for the short term. Eventually, many of these issues will be fixed by improved performance and new features, but NS2 is in desperate need for some short term fixes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Precisely.
You could take five minutes to knock all alien health by 20% and it would improve balance immensely, it wouldn't make the game absolutely balanced, but it would make it more balanced, and greatly improve the gameplay.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Honestly i think so much of this patch's unbalances would be reduced if RFK was taken out. It makes harvesters essentially worthless in the long run and just leads to resource over-abundance that isn't helping the stalemate problem, but making it worse.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with Heroman117, the resource system in patch 177 worked, 178 just isnt as fun to play.
Comments
Hi, I'm Squidget, experienced NS2 player, including commanding. I play both sides.
I'm unhappy with 178. If feel it's unbalanced, so much so that the game isn't fun for me. Moreover, the game tends to devolve into sentry fests, no matter who wins.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
sentries are used on bigger maps to hold areas captured by marines. thats not going to change. on bigger maps, marines cant advance enough because once again, they dont have the tech to move out fast enough. smaller maps = easier map control. its up to the marine commander to decide which choke points/areas to hold to maximize marine expansion.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I know that other patches will add more stuff. But that doesn't help me in the short term, because the game isn't fun. I want the game to be at least reasonably fun over the next few weeks and months. So I figured I'd make a post asking for suggestions, maybe I missed something. I wasn't whining, I was looking for solutions. I did not suggest Fades get nerfed or buffed, or change roles. I didn't suggest ANYTHING. I asked for help.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
your opinion is the game isnt fun, what about the others that are having a really good time playing the beta as is? should the devs cater to just you? the only solutions available are to play the game and learn good strategies to win, which is moot because those strategies will change on the next beta. so on and so forth. right now, marines dont coordinate attacks good enough because of the "newness" of the beta. once players get the hang of the new features then we'll see marines winning more. this is backed up by the number of wins generated by aliens as they dont need to coordinate attacks, but doing so helps.. a fade can hit and run, a solo marine cant. a solo marine will almost never survive trying to hit and run. thats where the ninja term came from kinda. sneaking is a better strat for a marine than running down a corridor with a shotgun. my suggestion is to get pgs up quickly, hold a few resource areas. tech up and use smart placement of turrets while containing the aliens into a small area (yes, map control is possible with marine teams).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That can't be right. If marines can't win fights on equal numbers, and the teams are forced to have equal number of players... then the only way marines win fights is if aliens never coordinate to make the fights equal. NS1 isnt NS2: aliens have a comm now. Aliens can now coordinate just as well as marines can, aliens can use just as much teamwork as marines can. If what you say is true, the balance is screwed, because marines don't have a teamwork advantage anymore.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
which is why i dont agree with having an alien commander. wasnt my choice, that was the devs that decided to implement this. imo the gorge needs this role back. but thats not going to happen. right now gorge is almost useless, whereas the gorge used to be a very important class. without the gorge the aliens didnt expand, period. marines can win if they hit their targets, capture resources and tech up. marines lose when they are either outskilled by aliens or have poor strategy. marines still have the teamwork advantage because they right now have what it takes to win. the only class that should give marines fits right now are lerks as they really have no counter to the gas attack other than medspam. the old counter to this was the heavy armor/medspam+welding. I mean, marines dont even need to capture another com area to get more weapons. if each marine squad has a few shotguns with a flamethrower, that alone should get marines around the map fine. after that its up to the com to determine position and a winning strategy.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Let's assume the comm isn't a total noob and can find the armor button, because you are obviously hosed in that case. No argument. But that alone can't explain that 83% loss rate.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
poor marine strats on larger maps are the cause of the increase of losses. you cant sit on the left side of the map and hold 50% of the resouces anymore.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have no idea what "launch phasegates" means, or what it means to know where a hive is "in relation to a squad." Please explain.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
placing phasegates in areas where there is cover, like not in the middle of a hallway. and positioning a squad in either a forward area with a pg, armory or whatever. or just not sending marines into an area they cant hold early on due to hive position (alien reinforcements picking off marines 1 by 1 until they are all dead, because marines cant reinforce fast enough to hold an area).
Sure enough, there are plenty of people giving its ongoing beta status some terse lip service, but just before unloading on balance/performance issues as if they were in danger of becoming forgotten, ignored, or otherwise set in stone. I've played NS1 since it was first released, and there were tons of problems in the beginning. You'd join a server, and everyone had 1000+ pings and horrendous performance. Seriously. It got fixed quickly and then went on to become one of the top HL1 mods ever, due largely to how refined and balanced the gameplay was, which brings me to my next point.
There would be a 'favorite team' to win with each NS1 patch for a while too, which certainly held very true sometimes, but soon true in the same sense that Terrans were 'overpowered' in StarCraft. Might've been true, and statistics showed team X had a slight edge in wins, but it was still often anyone's game since a team's aggregate skill was much more of a determining factor. Even these slight differences faded with time, I feel. Point is, no one should be expecting anything approaching perfection this far out. NS1 underwent several iterations of resource models which saw alien players (for example) transition between favoring a "who cares" model of gorge deployment, to "only 1 gorge! NOBODY ELSE GO GORGE, YOU FOOLS!", to a "WE NEED MORE GORGES!" model. Radical balance changes in this game often amount to something as simple as tweaking a couple dozen integer values, all of which will also probably be accessible to anyone wishing to host a modded server. So chill.
Edit: And I'm far from an apologist for this company. I thought the several years that the forums were hacked and offline was a total fiasco which killed off a very large and vibrant community. There was that Ready Room fan website, but it was always shutting down and being "reborn" every few months. There was nowhere to go. That was by far their biggest mistake, and could've easily been handled much better. I questioned whether they would even be able to make good on their promise to finish this game, especially after the restart. I *just* pre-ordered the other day because I felt build 178 was finally enough progress to have a reasonable expectation that they can see this through to a successful release.
The most important thing to me, is not the balance of the fade vs marine, but the timing (something which can be carried forward into future builds without upsetting the balance) - time the release of fades so marine have a fighting chance and this will carry forward to future builds and remain balanced.
I don't think I need to say that now is hardly the time to bring up balance issues when all the game features haven't even been fully implemented yet. I don't get irrationally attached/obsessed with games or developers, and still I can say that for those with the patience to stick it out, this game will be a real treat. If you go back to NS1, it was lightyears ahead of other mods in terms of polish and sophistication, even including official mods like CS/DoD and the original HL1 itself. No one would've batted an eyelid if it had seen a standalone release on store shelves. If the developers get to the publishing stage, it's a given that the game will be good; that much I've been sure of.
Sigh.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok, first of all we had a great communicative comm who used waypoints aswell as coordinate us with his voice (and the whole marine team trusted the comm and followed his instructions, no ramboing etc.)
We rushed for PGs, sent a squad of 3 (me included) to fortify and hold heliport while the PG tech was researching. The other squad held the other half of the map from being overrun and made occasional pushes to keep aliens busy.
While fortifying we covered eachother etc. While moving we never went on our own, at least 2 marines together, never 1 alone. We got our PG up at heliport and then proceeded to assult towards the main Hive with groups of 4-6 marines (was 8vs8), the PGs ensured we could travel to the important places over the map almost instantaneously.
During this the Aliens dropped a hatch on the other side of the map, and we sent 2 shottys 1 lmg to take it out before it complete while the rest of us pushed towards the main Hive. We downed the Hive and then it was just a continuos push into the alien main Hive and finally a victory. It was an awesome game!
Countering Fades are quite easy really, you can:
Prevent them from ever coming by taking out RTs early and/or deny Alien additional Hives (which has a high cost and 3 min build time)
Move (at least) 3 marines in a squad with at least 1 FT, 1FT/1shotty/1lmg is quite a nice combo. FT keeps fade from blinking around, shotty kill him in close combat and the lmg from afar. Oh, and this requires the marines to actually land most of their hits as well;)
Tech was PG->shottys-> GL/FT (not sure which came first)
gl:)
It should be faster
Stalemates are really more of a problem than fades. Sentry spam in marine start should = a loss. Even without bilebombs, sniper/gas lerks make short work of them and in games where our team has sentry spammed, the aliens simply dont lerk.
I remember the effectiveness of tight sg rushes in ns1. 8 shotgunning marines with med pack support is a force to be reckoned with - aliens and hives go down fast. Marines start with a fair bit of p res already. I really dont see whats stopping marine early game domination other than lack of team co-ordination. I mean we have sprint!... and siege cannons..!
Calm down.
First of all...
Unfinished game is not finished.
Now I want you all to do this experiment.
Take this URL...
<a href="http://unknownworldsstats.appspot.com/displayendgamestats?version=162" target="_blank">http://unknownworldsstats.appspot.com/disp...ats?version=162</a>
and open it in the browser.
and change the number on the end from
162 to 163
163 to 164
164 to ... (I hope you can fill in gaps...otherwise...more math for you)
... to 178
Yes Aliens are winning more now. (178)
But you saw how the stats jumped around didn't you.
This is why balance is left to the end.
And LOTS and LOTS of changes happened in this patch so no one can point to one or two things and say...
...that's the reason...nerf it.
It is akin to blaming lightning on Zeus and Hera getting into a fight over Zeus's wandering pee-pee.
Now try something crazy type in the number .....179
ZOMG they are working on it.
So this patch fixed and added lots of things.
and the game is a lot more fun and playable.
and another patch is coming :-)
If you are not having fun...take a breather for a couple patches and come back.
Just tonight had an unlikely win after main base was totalled from fades, we relo'd and pulled the win after a long 1 hr stalemate.
Hydra lag still a problem but meh.
ARC damage needs to be improved, been seeing a few hydras withstand blasts from 2 arcs for a few mins (with gorge healing)>.>
Loving the new fade blink, a hell of a lot less disorientating. More feared now that they can actually kill groups of marines with little problem.
Just tonight had an unlikely win after main base was totalled from fades, we relo'd and pulled the win after a long 1 hr stalemate.
Hydra lag still a problem but meh.
ARC damage needs to be improved, been seeing a few hydras withstand blasts from 2 arcs for a few mins (with gorge healing)>.>
Loving the new fade blink, a hell of a lot less disorientating. More feared now that they can actually kill groups of marines with little problem.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Only reason you guys won is that the aliens got bored of trying to take your base at cross roads and we all left..
The game stalemates very easily now and give the way turrets, mac's and arc's work marines can build a base that the aliens currently cannot touch...
Of course this will change when more abilities come in..
[1] Fade Blink = Fade invul while blinking. Very easy for fade to escape, just blink. In NS1 the fade is still targetable while retreating, giving marines a chance to kill a fleeing fade.
suggested solution: make fade targetable while blinking, increase blink cooldown or energy use
[2] Aliens have mirror upgrades for damage and armour. In NS1 marines had the advantage of passive upgrades. Now, both aliens and marines can max out to L3 weapons/armour, effectively negating any marine advantage. Throw in that aliens can get crags and gorges for field healing, marines die even faster with less healing.
suggested solution: Only allow marine passive upgrades, or change alien passive upgrade to something else (e.g. energy regen, health regen, speed etc instead of armour/damage).
[3] Infestation currently is impossible to clear, takes too long for flamer.
suggested solution: None. Pustule system is in the works.
[4] Too much dependence on personal res, while income has reduced. Especially for marine commander - you can stock up to 500+ team res but since meds/ammo/robots all cost personal res, it slows the marines down too much in terms of weapons and goodies.
suggested solution: Make all commander abilities and structures cost team res only. Commander's personal res gets put into team res pool. Marines continue receiving personal res at a slower rate. Commander can use team res to drop extra weapons.
[1] Fade Blink = Fade invul while blinking. Very easy for fade to escape, just blink. In NS1 the fade is still targetable while retreating, giving marines a chance to kill a fleeing fade.
suggested solution: make fade targetable while blinking, increase blink cooldown or energy use<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or you could just set the Fade on flames and watch it crawl when the energy regeneration is almost non-existant.
<!--quoteo(post=1851549:date=Jun 10 2011, 12:47 PM:name=MistenTH)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MistenTH @ Jun 10 2011, 12:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1851549"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->[2] Aliens have mirror upgrades for damage and armour. In NS1 marines had the advantage of passive upgrades. Now, both aliens and marines can max out to L3 weapons/armour, effectively negating any marine advantage. Throw in that aliens can get crags and gorges for field healing, marines die even faster with less healing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So? Marines get medpack spam
<!--quoteo(post=1851549:date=Jun 10 2011, 12:47 PM:name=MistenTH)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MistenTH @ Jun 10 2011, 12:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1851549"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->suggested solution: Only allow marine passive upgrades, or change alien passive upgrade to something else (e.g. energy regen, health regen, speed etc instead of armour/damage).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why?
It isn't playable though, because playing as marines is nothing but annoying. Because they're terrible.
It takes maybe five minutes to run through the alien classes and change the health and damage numbers to make the game more balanced, it doesn't have to be perfectly balanced but it would be more balanced. Even if you're conservative and just cut say 20% off of all lifeform health it'd still be pretty unbalanced in favour of aliens, but it'd be much better than the current, inexcusably lazy approach which is to just leave it as it is and entirely ignore the balance.
It takes maybe five minutes to run through the alien classes and change the health and damage numbers to make the game more balanced, it doesn't have to be perfectly balanced but it would be more balanced. Even if you're conservative and just cut say 20% off of all lifeform health it'd still be pretty unbalanced in favour of aliens, but it'd be much better than the current, inexcusably lazy approach which is to just leave it as it is and entirely ignore the balance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think it's alright the way it is now, maybe reduce fade damage a bit if they were to do anything temporarily for this current patch. It doesn't help trying to debate over balance when everything is not in. Especially when the jet pack and exo-suits will have a big impact on the game. Hell even the Skulk leap is going to be a research that the commander needs to get before default skulks can jump! Why waste time balancing now, and next patch, and next patch. On finite things that when you do release the rest of the content for your game, you have to go back and BALANCE everything again. Now I don't know how hard it is... maybe they're numbers on a notepad, maybe they're deep in code that takes time to change.
They're numbers in a file.
In the bit of code that says what a fade is for example, there's a number that the programmers can find in a few seconds by pressing control F and it says how much health the fade has, and they can change it.
It isn't some mystical arcane constant which has to be appeased with virgin sacrifices to change it, you can quite literally do it in five minutes for all the alien classes.
It doesn't have to stay that way either, if you are going to ignore balance completely until the game is feature complete, you can write down what all the values are at the moment and put that in a file somewhere, then when you want to balance it, you can set them all right back to how they are now. Saying you aren't trying to balance it, so all of the values have to be completely preserved is kind of silly, if you aren't going for balance then the current values are just random rubbish which can be easily replaced, if the current values are a guess at what they should be when the game is feature complete, remember what they are and then put them in <i>when the game is feature complete</i>, Until then, make another five minute guess at values for the current state of the game.
The point of the beta is to test things, I can't test how practical the arc is when fades just murder everything. I can't test how balanced a map is when every game is a steamroller. ###### balance is detrimental to actually testing the game.
In the bit of code that says what a fade is for example, there's a number that the programmers can find in a few seconds by pressing control F and it says how much health the fade has, and they can change it.
It isn't some mystical arcane constant which has to be appeased with virgin sacrifices to change it, you can quite literally do it in five minutes for all the alien classes.
It doesn't have to stay that way either, if you are going to ignore balance completely until the game is feature complete, you can write down what all the values are at the moment and put that in a file somewhere, then when you want to balance it, you can set them all right back to how they are now. Saying you aren't trying to balance it, so all of the values have to be completely preserved is kind of silly, if you aren't going for balance then the current values are just random rubbish which can be easily replaced, if the current values are a guess at what they should be when the game is feature complete, remember what they are and then put them in <i>when the game is feature complete</i>, Until then, make another five minute guess at values for the current state of the game.
The point of the beta is to test things, I can't test how practical the arc is when fades just murder everything. I can't test how balanced a map is when every game is a steamroller. ###### balance is detrimental to actually testing the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I dno.. it only takes 3-4 shotgun hits to kill a fade. you know 1 v 1 your not suposed to be able kill one right. no armour upgrades? i dont think its a balance problem in that case.
Marines respawn as Marines.
Fades respawn as skulks.
Its quite balanced once you learn to play the game. I was on a team of 3 fades (rest skulks) vs 6 marines. They came out with flamers and shotguns and absolutely lit us up. Flamer is key for fades.
Also, as Travcarp has already said countless times, wait until the rest of the content is released. Marines still have Jp's, Exo's, Hmg's and probably other toys coming.
In regards to the Arc, you're not missing out on much because its a ###### to navigate, often getting stuck before it even arrives to the target. Once it gets to the target, it decides to attack the hydras in the next room other than the Hive. Its buggy to say the least.
And that's fine as soon as you implement autobalance which makes it so that marines always have twice as many players on their team as aliens.
<!--quoteo(post=1851624:date=Jun 10 2011, 10:31 PM:name=Wiltdog)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wiltdog @ Jun 10 2011, 10:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1851624"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, as Travcarp has already said countless times, wait until the rest of the content is released. Marines still have Jp's, Exo's, Hmg's and probably other toys coming.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But they don't have them <i>now</i>, and right <i>now</i> the balance is terrible, so implement the simple, partial fixes <i>now</i>.
I really don't care about what's coming, if you want me to enjoy the game currently based on what it will someday be, then you are essentially saying I should enjoy it because by that time skyrim will be out and I'll be playing that instead, if you're going to say 'yeah the game is pretty crap but wait until the full release' then what's the point of having an open beta?
Why? A marine with shotgun can kill 6 skulks. WTF ALIENS NEED 6 TO 1 TEAMS TO BEAT A SHOTGUN, SHOTTY IS OP
...
The point of the beta is to test things, I can't test how practical the arc is when fades just murder everything. I can't test how balanced a map is when every game is a steamroller. ###### balance is detrimental to actually testing the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Funny; that was a big part of my argument in my last post concerning why they should not bother with balancing right now. Right now they're preoccupied with cramming new features in and making sure they work <i>at all</i>, not whether they have particularly good synergy with what's currently in the game.
I've got news for you: even if they did a feature freeze and reworked build 178 to have the most glorious, harmonious and balanced gameplay you'd ever seen, you still wouldn't be able to tell "how practical the arc is". What the devs giveth, the devs taketh away. It doesn't matter how good/bad the feature sounds in concept or at a testing stage. They could put in tactical nukes which cause 500 res, apply all kinds of fancy filter effects to the screen, and cause a great, dramatic orchestral track to echo throughout the entire map when it's launched, and still craft it in such a way that at release it does minimal damage, has minimal radius, and employs no DoT or debuffs from the lingering radiation. You still have no idea what the arc's going to be or how it will stack up until the final balancing act when the game is feature complete. It will doubtless be changed, and all your prior observations will be moot.
I think the ARC will be much powerfull than it is now.
Pathing is in fix and I'm sure targeting ( there is a attack buton on the ARC) improvement is also in work maybe even done.
Just wait till they implemented the Upgrades and then we may talk about balancing!
About the Fade. I played some games today and I learned how to handel the new Fade blink ( hearing at the blink, trying to estimate SOV of Fade, slash and blink counting, hearing the argh noise from the fade, strafing at the right time and more), sometime I even killed a Fade alone ( Server tick wer at 12 net_stats is always on. But a suported Fade or 2 of them knocks out bigger Marine Squads.
That are my experiences.
I've got news for you: even if they did a feature freeze and reworked build 178 to have the most glorious, harmonious and balanced gameplay you'd ever seen, you still wouldn't be able to tell "how practical the arc is". What the devs giveth, the devs taketh away. It doesn't matter how good/bad the feature sounds in concept or at a testing stage. They could put in tactical nukes which cause 500 res, apply all kinds of fancy filter effects to the screen, and cause a great, dramatic orchestral track to echo throughout the entire map when it's launched, and still craft it in such a way that at release it does minimal damage, has minimal radius, and employs no DoT or debuffs from the lingering radiation. You still have no idea what the arc's going to be or how it will stack up until the final balancing act when the game is feature complete. It will doubtless be changed, and all your prior observations will be moot.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The most time consuming part of balancing is playtesting, not changing numbers in a file. Also, I don't think anyone arguing for some balancing is saying they should make it perfect, but good enough. I would define 'good enough' as balance that would lead neither side to win more than 60% of the time. However, its clear from both <a href="http://ns2.sorcerer.de/stats/" target="_blank">http://ns2.sorcerer.de/stats/</a> and <a href="http://unknownworldsstats.appspot.com/displayendgamestats?version=178" target="_blank">http://unknownworldsstats.appspot.com/disp...ats?version=178</a> that not only does B178 not have good enough balance, but that its gotten worse. In fact, it hasn't been since B168 that the alien win percentage was below 60%.
To that effect, I've gone and proposed <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=113740" target="_blank">three simple changes</a> that I think would help improve balance and gameplay for the short term. Eventually, many of these issues will be fixed by improved performance and new features, but NS2 is in desperate need for some short term fixes.
When in blink phase, make the model transparent, which means you can't deliver damage to him, but you see where he goes.
In the beginning of the game its not so bad, but as it progresses and the resources from kills kept flowing in, there was such an excess of it that it allowed us to build so many crags, whips, and harvesters.
I've always said how much i didn't want to see RFK put into the game, and now that it has been we can now see how much it has done, typically in mid game i seen our team with 500 team resources, on both alien and marine sides, which just leads to a ludicrous amount of crags, whips, and turrets lagging and even furthering the game's stalemate.
Honestly i think so much of this patch's unbalances would be reduced if RFK was taken out. It makes harvesters essentially worthless in the long run and just leads to resource over-abundance that isn't helping the stalemate problem, but making it worse.
No, aliens need lerks, which cost about as much as a shotgunner, are available at the same time, and can combat them effectively. This is what is known as a counter.
Unless exosuits are going to be very cheap (and extremely effective) marines are going to need to spend a lot more than 50 res to beat a fade, and currently they don't have anything to combat them with except their non existant 2-1 numerical advantage, hence why I am suggesting a quick health slice.
<!--quoteo(post=1851741:date=Jun 11 2011, 09:07 AM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Jun 11 2011, 09:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1851741"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The most time consuming part of balancing is playtesting, not changing numbers in a file. Also, I don't think anyone arguing for some balancing is saying they should make it perfect, but good enough. I would define 'good enough' as balance that would lead neither side to win more than 60% of the time. However, its clear from both <a href="http://ns2.sorcerer.de/stats/" target="_blank">http://ns2.sorcerer.de/stats/</a> and <a href="http://unknownworldsstats.appspot.com/displayendgamestats?version=178" target="_blank">http://unknownworldsstats.appspot.com/disp...ats?version=178</a> that not only does B178 not have good enough balance, but that its gotten worse. In fact, it hasn't been since B168 that the alien win percentage was below 60%.
To that effect, I've gone and proposed <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=113740" target="_blank">three simple changes</a> that I think would help improve balance and gameplay for the short term. Eventually, many of these issues will be fixed by improved performance and new features, but NS2 is in desperate need for some short term fixes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Precisely.
You could take five minutes to knock all alien health by 20% and it would improve balance immensely, it wouldn't make the game absolutely balanced, but it would make it more balanced, and greatly improve the gameplay.
I agree with Heroman117, the resource system in patch 177 worked, 178 just isnt as fun to play.