Alien commanders need to drop more structures
Imbalanxd
Join Date: 2011-06-15 Member: 104581Members
Join Date: 2011-06-15 Member: 104581Members
<div class="IPBDescription">more incentives are needed</div>When was the last time you dropped anything other than a Cyst, Hive, Harvester or upgrade chamber in the first 5-10 minutes of a game as alien commander? Why are alien commanders so loath to drop structures other than the most basic and necessary?
I think this unwillingness to spend resources on structures which are actually relevant in battle is a major reason why alien commanding seems so bland at the moment. When I say "relevant in battle" I don't mean being right there on the front lines tugging at marine pant legs. I'm talking about structures like armouries which, while not directly contributing to the fight, make a huge difference to which way the battle goes. In the first ten minutes of a game, pretty much all the alien commander does is drop hives and spread to harvesters. Meanwhile the marine commander is actively dropping structures for his marines, researching upgrades which allow him to directly reinforce his marines, ect.
I think there are three primary reasons why alien commanders rarely if ever drop "miscellaneous" structures like whips, crags, shifts and shades.
<ul><li>Exorbitant early game resource cost</li><li>Unknown reliability and longevity </li><li>Questionable practical utility</li></ul>
Firstly the costs. I personally think that 15 resources is not necessarily "too much" for any of the structures mentioned previously. I do think, however, that it is made to be an unappealing trade because of two external factors. Firstly, the cost of upgrades and hives. The importance of the quick second hive means that the starting resources are absolutely critical. You basically <i>have </i>to spend 40 resources as soon as the game starts, or ensure that you have the resources close at hand to use as soon as the opportunity presents itself. Combine this with the fact that regardless of which root you decide to take; general chamber upgrade or lifeform upgrade, you are going to need at least 25 resources available <b>immediately </b> in order to prevent your forces from becoming obsolete. Combine <b>that </b>with the fact that you <b>must </b>have 2 harvesters in order to be in a comfortable position to continue teching, and you place commanders in a very precarious position. 80 resources are already allocated and the game has barely even begun, so its no wonder commanders are unwilling to put a massive 15 resources into something that may or may not pay off in the long run.
This already strong argument against the use of miscellaneous structures is further compounded by the second point, a case of eggs and baskets. Outside of a controlled hive room (and even inside controlled hive rooms) the prospect of a whip or a crag surviving past the first minute or two is a shaky one. The ease with which these structures are destroyed makes a commander very nervous about putting a whole 15 of his hard earned resources into them. It isn't a case of losing half of your investment while half of it continues to contribute, if you lose that whip, which can happen in literal seconds, the entire investment is gone, instantly. Nothing remains of the resources you spent. Strategy is all about risk assessment, and the alien commanders have spoken; the risk involved when dealing with these miscellaneous structures is simply too high.
The third, and probably most disheartening challenge facing the use of non essential structures, is their contribution or utility in battle. I think this point is exemplified by the shade. If there is one non essential structure I have absolutely no issues with dropping in the early game, it is the shade. It's utility is unquestionable. Not only does it greatly aid the players on the ground, but it even provides a benefit for me as a commander, hiding my expansions. The fact that shades are rarely available in the early game is unfortunate, but not really relevant in this discussion. I just think that the shade is a good model for what a miscellaneous structure should do.
Now lets take a look at the other, less appealing non essential structures. Whips and Crags, I feel, suffer from a similar hindering mechanic which some people call "critical mass". Ask yourself this; when was the last time you dropped a single Whip or Crag? Personally, I almost never do it. Sure I will drop Crags for a healing outpost outside of the first 10 minutes, but its either 4 Crags or no Crags. A single Whip is little more than a single literal slap in the face to an unsuspecting marine, at which point he stands in a safe position and takes it down. In the case of both structures, one is simply not enough, its all or nothing. You either heal that fade up in a matter of seconds, or you don't bother trying at all, because some healing is not better than no healing when you are dealing with a life form that must enter combat on full HP. You either kill that wandering marine instantly in a barrage of slaps, or you don't bother defending the entrance at all, because one Whip isn't worth the resources you will inevitably lose.
The Shift is in a reasonable position at the moment, and mainly suffers due to external reasons. Firstly, from lack of information. Most people don't actually know what the Shift can do, and I'm sure that will change, though I think it would help to make it more intuitive or obvious. For example, as I wrote this post, I was about to state that the Shift suffered from not stacking with other Shifts. However, this isn't true, as more Shifts means faster Echos. I completely forgot about this as it is so obscure and rarely seen, which brings me to the second external reason; this entire post. With little to no miscellaneous structures being placed, what reliable use is Echo anyway? Hopefully this can change in time.
So that's the end of the discussion part of my post, now for my recommendations.
<ol type='1'><li>Reduce the cost of miscellaneous structures like Whips, Crags, Shifts and Shades to 10. Nerf them accordingly if needed, but honestly I don't think it necessary.</li><li>Address critical massing of Crags by making single Crags more powerful, and having them stack less quickly. For example, if a single Crag heals for X, then 3 Crags together should only heal for 2X.</li><li>I don't know if critical massing of Whips needs to be addressed (I think it was more of a price issue), but if it does need to be, then the solution will be more complicated.</li><li>Give miscellaneous structures a passive player bonus <b>and </b>a passive commander bonus. In the case of the shade the same bonus affects commander and player alike, but the other structures won't be as simple. Whips are fine, as they defend locations for the commander and provide distraction for players. Crags and Shifts on the other hand are tricky, I'll make a dedicated post in the suggestions forum for this though.</li><li> One active commander ability per maturation stage! Ink cloud and Illusion, Hatch and Echo, <b>where the hell did Umbra go on Crags</b>? At least replace it with something!</li></ol>
I think this unwillingness to spend resources on structures which are actually relevant in battle is a major reason why alien commanding seems so bland at the moment. When I say "relevant in battle" I don't mean being right there on the front lines tugging at marine pant legs. I'm talking about structures like armouries which, while not directly contributing to the fight, make a huge difference to which way the battle goes. In the first ten minutes of a game, pretty much all the alien commander does is drop hives and spread to harvesters. Meanwhile the marine commander is actively dropping structures for his marines, researching upgrades which allow him to directly reinforce his marines, ect.
I think there are three primary reasons why alien commanders rarely if ever drop "miscellaneous" structures like whips, crags, shifts and shades.
<ul><li>Exorbitant early game resource cost</li><li>Unknown reliability and longevity </li><li>Questionable practical utility</li></ul>
Firstly the costs. I personally think that 15 resources is not necessarily "too much" for any of the structures mentioned previously. I do think, however, that it is made to be an unappealing trade because of two external factors. Firstly, the cost of upgrades and hives. The importance of the quick second hive means that the starting resources are absolutely critical. You basically <i>have </i>to spend 40 resources as soon as the game starts, or ensure that you have the resources close at hand to use as soon as the opportunity presents itself. Combine this with the fact that regardless of which root you decide to take; general chamber upgrade or lifeform upgrade, you are going to need at least 25 resources available <b>immediately </b> in order to prevent your forces from becoming obsolete. Combine <b>that </b>with the fact that you <b>must </b>have 2 harvesters in order to be in a comfortable position to continue teching, and you place commanders in a very precarious position. 80 resources are already allocated and the game has barely even begun, so its no wonder commanders are unwilling to put a massive 15 resources into something that may or may not pay off in the long run.
This already strong argument against the use of miscellaneous structures is further compounded by the second point, a case of eggs and baskets. Outside of a controlled hive room (and even inside controlled hive rooms) the prospect of a whip or a crag surviving past the first minute or two is a shaky one. The ease with which these structures are destroyed makes a commander very nervous about putting a whole 15 of his hard earned resources into them. It isn't a case of losing half of your investment while half of it continues to contribute, if you lose that whip, which can happen in literal seconds, the entire investment is gone, instantly. Nothing remains of the resources you spent. Strategy is all about risk assessment, and the alien commanders have spoken; the risk involved when dealing with these miscellaneous structures is simply too high.
The third, and probably most disheartening challenge facing the use of non essential structures, is their contribution or utility in battle. I think this point is exemplified by the shade. If there is one non essential structure I have absolutely no issues with dropping in the early game, it is the shade. It's utility is unquestionable. Not only does it greatly aid the players on the ground, but it even provides a benefit for me as a commander, hiding my expansions. The fact that shades are rarely available in the early game is unfortunate, but not really relevant in this discussion. I just think that the shade is a good model for what a miscellaneous structure should do.
Now lets take a look at the other, less appealing non essential structures. Whips and Crags, I feel, suffer from a similar hindering mechanic which some people call "critical mass". Ask yourself this; when was the last time you dropped a single Whip or Crag? Personally, I almost never do it. Sure I will drop Crags for a healing outpost outside of the first 10 minutes, but its either 4 Crags or no Crags. A single Whip is little more than a single literal slap in the face to an unsuspecting marine, at which point he stands in a safe position and takes it down. In the case of both structures, one is simply not enough, its all or nothing. You either heal that fade up in a matter of seconds, or you don't bother trying at all, because some healing is not better than no healing when you are dealing with a life form that must enter combat on full HP. You either kill that wandering marine instantly in a barrage of slaps, or you don't bother defending the entrance at all, because one Whip isn't worth the resources you will inevitably lose.
The Shift is in a reasonable position at the moment, and mainly suffers due to external reasons. Firstly, from lack of information. Most people don't actually know what the Shift can do, and I'm sure that will change, though I think it would help to make it more intuitive or obvious. For example, as I wrote this post, I was about to state that the Shift suffered from not stacking with other Shifts. However, this isn't true, as more Shifts means faster Echos. I completely forgot about this as it is so obscure and rarely seen, which brings me to the second external reason; this entire post. With little to no miscellaneous structures being placed, what reliable use is Echo anyway? Hopefully this can change in time.
So that's the end of the discussion part of my post, now for my recommendations.
<ol type='1'><li>Reduce the cost of miscellaneous structures like Whips, Crags, Shifts and Shades to 10. Nerf them accordingly if needed, but honestly I don't think it necessary.</li><li>Address critical massing of Crags by making single Crags more powerful, and having them stack less quickly. For example, if a single Crag heals for X, then 3 Crags together should only heal for 2X.</li><li>I don't know if critical massing of Whips needs to be addressed (I think it was more of a price issue), but if it does need to be, then the solution will be more complicated.</li><li>Give miscellaneous structures a passive player bonus <b>and </b>a passive commander bonus. In the case of the shade the same bonus affects commander and player alike, but the other structures won't be as simple. Whips are fine, as they defend locations for the commander and provide distraction for players. Crags and Shifts on the other hand are tricky, I'll make a dedicated post in the suggestions forum for this though.</li><li> One active commander ability per maturation stage! Ink cloud and Illusion, Hatch and Echo, <b>where the hell did Umbra go on Crags</b>? At least replace it with something!</li></ol>
Comments
Probably 1 or 2 whips, 15-30 res
A shift with 10 (?) eggs: 25 res
4 or 5 crags for decent healing, 60-75 res
A shade often helps so 15 res
compare this to marines who need:
PG for 15 res
armoury (optional) for 10 res
Some mines for 5-10 res.
Add into that if your whips dont mature before its found (and maturing them takes forever) then 1 gl comes along and trololol. Even once its matured they're so dodgy that 2 whips dont even shut down 1 GL spammer. And I think that the nades when thrown back only hurt the thrower which is dumb.
Given that buildings take time to mature I dont think I should have to pay for the upgrades to them, atleast not as much as it is. Doubling the cost of the structure for often very little benifit, every time I've upgraded a whip to bombard it barely seems to do anything and thats now a 30 res building that I had to wait for ages to upgrade.
As for crag umbra, it went to lerk which is fine, but it needs to have an ability
Marines also have got alot more things to "upgrade", i.e. their structures don't just "mature-over-time", comm needs to spend some res and upgrade these things....
The two sides are ASYMETRICAL, you guys cant just compare them like that.....
Marines also have got alot more things to "upgrade", i.e. their structures don't just "mature-over-time", comm needs to spend some res and upgrade these things....
The two sides are ASYMETRICAL, you guys cant just compare them like that.....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My problem isn't that alien commanding isn't enough like marine commanding. My problem is that the alien commander does almost nothing throughout a game. In fact UWE has actually taken to introducing what amounts to busy work for the alien commander in the form of infestation spike and enzyme cloud.
In an "RTS" in which you don't have direct control over your units, the most obvious way to introduce complexity is through the importance of structures, in my opinion.
I think this is partially intentional by the game's design.
The Marketing talks we keep hearing from Hugh is that the Marine Comm is suppose to be the High RPM style that we are used to on traditional RTS's, and the Alien Comm is more laid back (i.e. the cosmic gardener analogy).
What i'm saying is that the alien comm is MEANT TO BE more laid back then the marine comm, by design. My guess is to keep the asymetry of the comm roles on both sides.
As for the whips, why would anyone want to upgrade them? An upgraded whip doesn't get more HP and costs almost as much as a hive. The ranged attack vs rine armor is a joke as well. It won't stop anyone from sniping the whip as fast as before = useless. They could get more interesting if the armor or resistence vs range attacks would increase with an upgrade and with an extra damage versus Exos they could get a role in late game. But then again, if you are not already dominating the map you won't have enough res to place them.
And in late game those structures are even more useless since a single Exo can just sweep a corridor clean of structures worth 3 hives in no time and without even the need to rearm.
What I miss is a placement of upgrade chambers inside vents without infestation. Remember an MC, DC or SC dropped in a NS1 vent? That was always a good investment because it was of great help to the team and it was save for a long time = worth spending res on.
And I am missing umbra crags as well. Btw, do crags heal hives right now or are they still not healing them again?
In order to prevent the alien tech explosion with the costly upgrade system there is no room for alien structures and that is adding to the feeling that lifeforms are the only way to protect alien space. The problem with the most things in NS2 right now is that almost every change to prevent problems can cause new problems at another place. So what could be a solution for this problem? What should be the goal of a change? If you make the positions too strong or too cheap the rines will get blocked out and we have to fight another problem. What if we make the whips endure more damage at the same cost than before and let the other support structures be build outside the attack routes?
In order to make those structures interesting again you can
...lower the costs, but that would lead again to the spam problem.
...increase the health/armor, but that could be frustrating for the rines.
...you could change the map design and add more "vent rooms" above key positions where aliens can build support structures so they are not directly in the path of attacking rines. But cyst placement will render this solution impossible. Maybe make the support strucutres placeable everywhere would be an idea. But I don't know if that should apply to whips as well.
...let the gorge build structures with pres that can be placed even in vents. That makes the gorge better, helps the team, but locks the player in the role as gorge since he invests a lot of pres. Would that work?
Oh and something that is bugging me for a while, give us back parasite! I don't like the new hive sight, it is not as usefull as the good old parasite. If structures and rines aren't parasited, it is way more risky for a commander to place structures and invest in "miscellaneous" structures. (I know you can/should use drifters, but that would lead to more res useage and isn't as fun as parasiting)
Well it got a bit long and maybe chaotic, but thinking about NS2 problems is always kinda chaotic, isn't it? :P
I'd have to agree with this. I don't hate the concept of the alien commander per se, heck I've even come to accept it, but now that we are nearing feature completion it's clear to me that the added value of the 24/7 alien commander is in fact marginal. (One could even argue it has no added value at all seeing as how it completely marginalised the role of the Gorge) Either it needs to become a way more active task, with a lot more choices and depth to it or it just needs to GTFO.
My 2 cents anyway. The current alien commander role could easily be done by one 'super' gorge who has to jump into a hive occasionally (or press a button to go into 'overmind' modus) just to make some 'big decisions' (Which type of hive, which type of upgrade chamber, which lifeform upgrade)
For example, placing a shade on a path and linking it with a structure somehow would cloak everything up to that structure including itself.
Or perhaps dropping a crag and linking to a structure would heal everything on infest from that crag to the structure.
Or dropping a shift would increase energy between the shift and the linked structure.
Thus creating paths for aliens. Obviously you would have to have limits on this somehow? But it sounds like a complicated implementation. Suppose you could do it by number of Cysts?
I like Whips, but they are too cumbersome to move around. UWE should just remove the rooting system completely to make them useful.
The Marketing talks we keep hearing from Hugh is that the Marine Comm is suppose to be the High RPM style that we are used to on traditional RTS's, and the Alien Comm is more laid back (i.e. the cosmic gardener analogy).
What i'm saying is that the alien comm is MEANT TO BE more laid back then the marine comm, by design. My guess is to keep the asymetry of the comm roles on both sides.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have no problem with that, and I think that aspect is working well. I love playing commander as aliens, but I still don't touch marine commander because they are very different, and the alien commander is more "laid back". But laid back doesn't mean doing nothing. If you want an example of laid back strategy, look at a game like Supreme Commander. Micro management of units and high RPM is very low on the list of priorities in that game but its all about managing multiple things at a time. You don't put much detailed focus into any one action, but there are tens of actions going on at any one time that require input.
At the moment, the alien commander has the lack of detailed focus down, but is missing the multiple things to do at any one time. There are periods when there really is absolutely nothing to do, and I don't think that's acceptable.
I would like if the creep spreads by itself and gorges go back to building hives and be able to place whips craigs and etc.
The laid back feeling of alien comm is because they weren't really meant to be played top down like the marines where you have to micro and babysit them.
Explain
I think at a certain point you will have enough fades or there will be a decreasing benefit to having all those fade eggs, and at that point your team is most likely already swimming in resources and has won the game.
Another point though, if you're playing as a marine would you necessarily want to spend a majority of your time playing clearing out structures? There certainly is a point where there are too many structures on the field.
So it might be worth it reducing the cost of only certain structures so that they are used more often. I think the shift is certainly one that is not used enough. The commander can micro how many eggs he has in certain areas where he has shifts, and depending on which side of the map is needing back up he can spawn eggs at the closest shift.
I don't know if any other structures really warrant a change, as we wouldn't want whips and crags over used, and shades I find are just fine.
Marines get their extractors chewed down far more than aliens lose their harvesters, so I don't see any need for them to have added defenses at their harvesters.
TLDR not worth it to extend cysts except to place a building.
Playing economically translates to completely ignoring 50% of all alien structures, which makes for incredibly boring commanding. Imagine commanding for marines and all you ever dropped was armouries and phase gates.
Spamming whips and echoing them into a base, spamming crags outside marine turtle, spamming hallucinations, etc. All these things are low priority until the endgame. Especially since the change for commander to drop evolutions using tres. Before at least you would see structure drops mid-game, to break mid-game turtles for 3rd hive room.
this would make them useful and deter grenade spam marine offensive creeping. they are expensive and slow to mature, but do almost nothing since GL's will pump 3 off and back away
Give me an example of how a shift would kick ass.
This, I am so hoping someones working on reverting alien khamm back to gorge.
I watched video a month or two back where a gorge was dropping harvesters, stating they were making a NS1 Mod, but I haven't kept up with it lately and not sure where they are at with it now.
Hopefully 1.0 doesn't putt off too many people. I already see the community dropping a month after release, meaning that mods will have a difficult time to form a community in itself.
Hopefully 1.0 doesn't putt off too many people. I already see the community dropping a month after release, meaning that mods will have a difficult time to form a community in itself.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yea, I dunno. I just want all the crappy seemingly tacked on aspects of the game removed, khamm and cysts especially. It feels totally tacked and and doesnt add any tactical or shooter benifits beyond 'lol better sit in that chair and spam your team res away so the marines can kill them'
See where I'm going with this? Since there's not enough abilities and structures to make both roles viable, we're currently in a situation where neither have enough to do to be interesting.
The easiest solution would be to make the gorge a proper combat engineer class, i.e make it actually able to stand up to marines and/or buff it's offensive capability (Combat engineers tend to have shotguns, making them effective at close distance, this would be an incentive for marines to keep away from gorges) They always said the gorge was going to be a combat engineer, yet somehow it isn't (Not even close even) What's the hold up?
Either that or simply ditch the alien commander, but that's not going to happen.
Build one very close to the enemies base and spawn a load of eggs with it? Its handy but is too expensive for what it is
Players are finally starting to catch on how awesome shifts are. The 10 res cost instead of 15 goes a long way in making it a viable choice for the Khamm - as you stated earlier, most of the time structures aren't dropped because they're simply too expensive and other upgrades/hives are too important to pass up.
They are amazing for supporting forward gorge positions. Hatch can be game breaking due to the spawning code favoring Shift eggs. If a gorge manages to set up at a forward location (say Shipping when your hive is Warehouse), then a Shift will help him heal his hydras. Drop 3-4 eggs there, and you instantly have skulk support in a location that would have taken a very long time to walk.
Right now they're the closest thing aliens have to phase gates AND beacon. They're also great for defending unbuilt hives that don't have any gorges nearby. Drop a shift, 4-5 eggs, turn 1-2 of them into gorges, and suddenly that ballsy hive drop is a lot more viable.
So much of this hinges on the 10 res cost. If it were 15, I'd probably pass it up for early-mid game.
EDIT: On an unrelated note, really wish the structure hallucinations were cheaper. It's a fun mechanic, but the cost is unjustifiable in all but games that are already won. 15 res for a fake hive? Really? Then again, it's 30 res for the upgraded shade which is also pretty silly, so... yeah. Upgraded Shade/Shift/Crag/Whip should give more HP on top of maturity - the cost is simply too high to justify their abilities over placing a second structure.