I would like to argue sentry spam wouldn't even be effective any more anyway, there's too many viable counters and they're quite fragile and expensive. (To spam them would be to severely gimp your team's ability to invest resources elsewhere)
So please, just revert their stats (keep them fragile or whatever) to what it was, so us commanders can actually use sentries as a viable strategy again. (I personally loved a fast TF to support early marine map presence, it was a huge and often the only help in situations where the marine team alone struggled to stay competitive as the mid game approached) There's many other ways to address turret farms, gimping the tactical use of a handful of sentries isn't one of them.
<!--quoteo(post=1976336:date=Sep 12 2012, 11:15 AM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Sep 12 2012, 11:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1976336"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Should just get a really powerful sentry (think exo powerful) for every CC you have and it has a very low FOV (like 30 degrees) so it is only useful in corridors.
Then you can block the corridor off as a route for aliens. So essentially they act like a brick wall but can be flanked easily.
Alien movement is the biggest threat to marines in this game, and this basically forces aliens to take longer paths.
Also marines would have to place them like chess pieces adding tactical and strategic value, and because you can only have 1 per cc you can't turtle with them at last CC.
If they were implemented like this, not only would they match the ALIENS movies (Charlies dream, apart from Candy Mountain) but they would probably see use in clan matches.
I see no issue with this? Then you just have a secondary defence for the base. Mines are perfect tbh, and I didn't see any sentrys in public servers the previous build so it doesn't damage anything.
Charlie will probably be like 'God damn you Runteh' if he sees this video again, but I think this kind of thing would work well.
I've often thought that a numerically limited, but high health, high power turret that was primarily destroyed via flanking or swarm attacks, that could be used to bloster cut points (where enemies can cut into the marine path) would be a great idea.
Alternatively, you could keep the turrets as they are (without the silly battery requirement - it should all be built into a single object, the turret), but allow marines to place them with PRes like they do with mines. In this scenario, it gives marines an interesting dropped turret (much like the floating turret described above) that has low hp and low damage, but might JUST might give them the one second warning they need vs life forms (which the turret is weak against) or help with the assault on a hive (because the turrets are decent vs structures).
<!--quoteo(post=1978460:date=Sep 16 2012, 09:34 AM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Sep 16 2012, 09:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1978460"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would like to argue sentry spam wouldn't even be effective any more anyway, there's too many viable counters and they're quite fragile and expensive. (To spam them would be to severely gimp your team's ability to invest resources elsewhere)
So please, just revert their stats (keep them fragile or whatever) to what it was, so us commanders can actually use sentries as a viable strategy again. (I personally loved a fast TF to support early marine map presence, it was a huge and often the only help in situations where the marine team alone struggled to stay competitive as the mid game approached) There's many other ways to address turret farms, gimping the tactical use of a handful of sentries isn't one of them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I also don't like that fast PG is pretty much the only viable strategy for marine commanders now. I think that going MF with turrets to help bolster early marine presence should also be a viable alternative. Turrets can be cheap and easily destroyed, but enough to keep a single lone skulk from being a serious problem and requiring whack-a-skulk.
<!--quoteo(post=1979130:date=Sep 18 2012, 03:45 AM:name=Snoopicus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Snoopicus @ Sep 18 2012, 03:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979130"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I also don't like that fast PG is pretty much the only viable strategy for marine commanders now. I think that going MF with turrets to help bolster early marine presence should also be a viable alternative. Turrets can be cheap and easily destroyed, but enough to keep a single lone skulk from being a serious problem and requiring whack-a-skulk.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Could be very wrong, but i think pg wasn't as dominant in ns1 because aliens didnt spawn so incredibly fast in huge spawn waves.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Could be very wrong, but i think pg wasn't as dominant in ns1 because aliens didnt spawn so incredibly fast in huge spawn waves.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is definitely a factor, but having useful sentries and electrocute was a very reasonable and fun alternative to always having to go phase gates for map control. I REALLY hate how they have essentially watered down the marine tech path to fast obs and phasegates on most maps.
Doesn't help that relocates generally never occur any more either. God it saddens me when I think of how much more varied marine gameplay and strategy was in NS 1.
Guess I'll have to start looking out for the NS 2 NS1 classic mod.
I actually think the damage based on FOV idea would work the best and is an alternative to this idea, as I could see it being used in publics and clan matches. You could just have two modes if that was complicated, 360 degree and very low damage (base harassment) and 30-45 degrees and high powered (corridor defence).
Combined with Blasphemy's idea of the battery being ammo regeneration and it might work really nicely.
- It stops random placement in rooms, forced by the need to place them close to the regen unit.
- 360 degree mode would be enough to cover a room, but too weak to cause an issue to PVP gameplay. I'm thinking a Skulk might go down in 8-15 seconds in 360 degree mode, so just gives marines a better chance hp wise.
- 30-40 degree mode would be great for covering corridors, but useless from rear attack. An 'anti-pg' kind of unit for marines, limiting alien movement or extending it through the map.
- Turtling would be impossible, because you'd end up with 1cc and therefore 1 sentry. So you'd have a choice between the two modes, but not enough to cover the base once aliens start pushing in.
- Weak turret/strong regen unit = easy to take down sentrys that are cheap, but can be renewed without too much cost.
- Becomes used tactically, with clans incorporating sentry positioning into their gameplay plans. This would filter into publics nicely.
If I could program in LUA (i've had a look already) I'd have mocked this idea up long ago. I'd love to see someone do this, just to see what it would be like.
They could've just hard capped the old sentry at 3 per power node, similar to how they hardcapped hydras per gorge. It's an ugly solution but it sure beats everything they came up with in an effort to try and achieve similar results. I despise hardcaps, but if it means we get the old sentry back then I will gladly sign. (At least then I can go back to using some strategic sentries in hallways and what not as a commander....I never spammed them but somehow my commander style too had to be wrecked because of some spammers)
It is horrid going into a room with sentries like that, especially when you are trying to fight marines and can't combat the sentries. Just adds to pub server frustration. We've seen this every build. There are ways to make this work 'all round'.
Isn't that the point, why would you try and fight marines in front of some sentries? Do you go and fight aliens in front of whips and hydras as well? If team res is invested in a defensive structure (at the cost of less res being invested elsewhere) surely it's not too much to ask that they actually help defend an area? God forbid you have to flank the sentries, or focus the powernode, or use any of the numerous alien abilities available to combat them. (Bilebomb, vortex, stomp, lerk gas, ...) Or you know, bring more players and use TEAMPLAY.
I guess it's easier to just dumb down gameplay instead, cater solely to the FPS crowd that just wants to jump in and kill things immediately. (Playing careful or using smart positioning or teamplay is apparently too difficult for these people) Nobody complained about this in NS 1, I don't even see why this is being brought up in NS 2.
I don't believe hard caps are particularly necessary. To me they seem like an "easy out" to a solution that could be much more complicated and diverse. As long as they are designed so that the player can easily understand what is going on, complication shouldn't be bad.
If you guys remember the Supreme Commander games, they had a very special way of doing their economy, which was one of their flagship features. That was the Mass and Power system. The only hard cap in the game was the amount of units (which you could define) for every player. Ranging from 250 to 1000. But that you would never reach, your real leash was the economy. You could build whatever you wanted, as long as you had the infrastructure to support it. And that would be primarily determined by how many extractors or generators you had, and at what level they had.
The generators/extractors would generate a particular amount of res/tick, and that would be what you would use to build your armies. It was very easy to understand, but very difficult to master. Often you would crash your own economy before you would even see the enemy if you were new.
That kind of idea is something I believe NS could use very well. Why should we have to limit sentries to a hard limit when we could just manipulate the sentry effectiveness instead. If you had the economy and the will, you could turn sentries into a very effective hard defense, or if you were scratched for cash, they could be a cheap support.
You could drop a $5 sentry and it will shoot for 4 seconds, but then what? No ammo, no shooty, so you would have to drop your battery and it will resupply and everything will be lovely once again. But then, you would have spent $25. Alternatively you could have just dropped another four sentries, and they would probably rip anything a new orifice, but it would not be sustainable. Once those four seconds are up, those sentries are all useless.
What if we were to make it so sentries wouldn't give you res from recycling? What if you could upgrade batteries (individually) to resupply at a higher rate? What if we could upgrade extractors (individually) so they give more res per tick? Manipulating the economy sounds like a perfect fit for the Marines. To be able to invest in a higher infrastructure, allowing higher yield.
<!--quoteo(post=1979279:date=Sep 18 2012, 02:46 AM:name=BuzterOne)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BuzterOne @ Sep 18 2012, 02:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979279"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I hope they fix the sentrys.. it should easly kill skulks and lerks almost instant in early/mid game. If com wants to waste res on it ofc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That would be terrible.
Turrets should only buy time for marines soften up lifeforms, like hydras currently do. Making them cost a ton and buffing them to insane levels will just make them frustrating for both teams.
<!--quoteo(post=1979257:date=Sep 18 2012, 02:00 AM:name=Blasphemy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Blasphemy @ Sep 18 2012, 02:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979257"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't believe hard caps are particularly necessary. To me they seem like an "easy out" to a solution that could be much more complicated and diverse. As long as they are designed so that the player can easily understand what is going on, complication shouldn't be bad.
If you guys remember the Supreme Commander games, they had a very special way of doing their economy, which was one of their flagship features. That was the Mass and Power system. The only hard cap in the game was the amount of units (which you could define) for every player. Ranging from 250 to 1000. But that you would never reach, your real leash was the economy. You could build whatever you wanted, as long as you had the infrastructure to support it. And that would be primarily determined by how many extractors or generators you had, and at what level they had.
The generators/extractors would generate a particular amount of res/tick, and that would be what you would use to build your armies. It was very easy to understand, but very difficult to master. Often you would crash your own economy before you would even see the enemy if you were new.
That kind of idea is something I believe NS could use very well. Why should we have to limit sentries to a hard limit when we could just manipulate the sentry effectiveness instead. If you had the economy and the will, you could turn sentries into a very effective hard defense, or if you were scratched for cash, they could be a cheap support.
You could drop a $5 sentry and it will shoot for 4 seconds, but then what? No ammo, no shooty, so you would have to drop your battery and it will resupply and everything will be lovely once again. But then, you would have spent $25. Alternatively you could have just dropped another four sentries, and they would probably rip anything a new orifice, but it would not be sustainable. Once those four seconds are up, those sentries are all useless.
What if we were to make it so sentries wouldn't give you res from recycling? What if you could upgrade batteries (individually) to resupply at a higher rate? What if we could upgrade extractors (individually) so they give more res per tick? Manipulating the economy sounds like a perfect fit for the Marines. To be able to invest in a higher infrastructure, allowing higher yield.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem is that if they cost too much, they're useless and are never used. Especially considering you need to go robotics.
There's also the problem of endgame marine turret spam just to prolong the inevitable loss. Not to mention destroy tick-rates. Capping them to 3 per power-node with a lower res cost with none of that battery and anti-structure nonsense would keep them relevant while also keeping the spam down. Just like Hydras are 3 per player.
Turrets would actually keep fades and sulks busy, buying time and softening them up while marines phase in to defend a tech point. Because right now, I see A LOT of games lost "in the phase gate": -3 fades camp a gate -all the marines phase -they all die, lose their shotguns -tech point lost, commander panics -fades pick of most of the marines trying to re-expand -gg
<!--quoteo(post=1978411:date=Sep 16 2012, 11:28 AM:name=Know pain)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Know pain @ Sep 16 2012, 11:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1978411"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Heres what I see being a problem with that idea, in larger games say 12v12 it becomes hard to sneak into a hive and build things. While this is by no means impossbile I can only see this working early game. As soon as bile bomb comes out those things are gone in a flash. Although I don't see UW fixing this right now cause niether the turret or the arc is being used as the primary siege weapon, it's the exo. 2 or 3 duel exos can waste a hive in 7 to 10 seconds.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I still find it odd, its so much easier to just roll arcs in and blast everything to pieces than it is to exo spam. Much less hassle on everyones part and generally more effective overall.
<!--quoteo(post=1979287:date=Sep 17 2012, 06:10 PM:name=Onii-chan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Onii-chan @ Sep 17 2012, 06:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979287"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem is that if they cost too much, they're useless and are never used. Especially considering you need to go robotics.
There's also the problem of endgame marine turret spam just to prolong the inevitable loss. Not to mention destroy tick-rates. Capping them to 3 per power-node with a lower res cost with none of that battery and anti-structure nonsense would keep them relevant while also keeping the spam down. Just like Hydras are 3 per player.
Turrets would actually keep fades and sulks busy, buying time and softening them up while marines phase in to defend a tech point. Because right now, I see A LOT of games lost "in the phase gate": -3 fades camp a gate -all the marines phase -they all die, lose their shotguns -tech point lost, commander panics -fades pick of most of the marines trying to re-expand -gg<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But a hard cap such as that makes it difficult to control rooms with more entrances than you can have turrets covering, thus leading to less flexibility in sentry placement. Instead of placing the sentries at doors to watch the halls, you are forced to keep them watching the room itself.
Restricting sentries to 3, just because a gorge can only have three is awfully shortsighted in my opinion. What about when you have two gorges? Then there are six hydras in a room while marines only have 3. This is comparing an individual player to an entire team as the basis for reasoning.
While I have no qualms with dropping the damage over time bit, I am absolutely against a hard cap of 3 sentries per room/tech point. It is too restrictive. It is too unimaginative. Instead of the commander saying "we can't drop another sentry because we can't afford it", it is "we can't drop another sentry because we just can't". You should be forced to choose between whether we want an early shotgun or early phase or early sentry, and the commander going from a personal preference. He should be thinking "Should I spend a little bit more to get sentries instead of shotguns? We can't really get lerks that well, but we should have an advantage against skulks."
Of course, the targeting for the sentries has to be improved either way. A lot of misconceptions people are having about the sentries in general are that they don't do enough damage. While this is true in 219 because of the DOT, people were assuming this in 218 and below. The problem about sentries not doing enough damage isn't in the damage values themselves, it is just because they aren't shooting to begin with. Something happened to them and they just haven't been reliably engaging what they are supposed to.
I believe that if this targeting system were to be fixed, and the DOT removed and sent back to previous values, and having a financial restriction in the embodiment of an ammo dispenser system, we could return sentries to being one of the commander's favorite strategies as well as providing many opportunites for different gameplay styles.
We've had a way to counter sentry spam planned out for a year now. It's called bone shield. For some reason, UWE decided to just nerf sentries instead of giving marines the ability to defend their territory and allowing aliens a way to break through said defenses.
<!--quoteo(post=1979279:date=Sep 18 2012, 09:46 AM:name=BuzterOne)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BuzterOne @ Sep 18 2012, 09:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979279"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I hope they fix the sentrys.. it should easly kill skulks and lerks almost instant in early/mid game. If com wants to waste res on it ofc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem is that 'if com wants to waste res on it' becomes the default option. Sentry guns that can kill players won't just kill players, but absolutely destroy pub play.
The decision to make sentry guns anti-structure weapons is undoubtedly controversial, but sentry guns that can kill players are not coming back.
<!--quoteo(post=1979338:date=Sep 17 2012, 07:59 PM:name=Strayan (NS2HD))--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Strayan (NS2HD) @ Sep 17 2012, 07:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979338"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem is that 'if com wants to waste res on it' becomes the default option. Sentry guns that can kill players won't just kill players, but absolutely destroy pub play.
The decision to make sentry guns anti-structure weapons is undoubtedly controversial, but sentry guns that can kill players are not coming back.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then why are Hydras and, to a lesser extent, Whips allowed to stay as they are? Hydras don't even have the restrictions that Sentries do (Light-type damage, limited FOV, can only be placed on the floor, sizable tres cost as opposed to a minor pres cost, etc). Not all Marine weapons are ranged (or effective at range) just like not all lifeforms are limited to melee.
Edit: In fact, Hydras were buffed recently specifically so that they'd be better at player killing.
oldassgamersJoin Date: 2011-02-02Member: 80033Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
edited September 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1979338:date=Sep 18 2012, 03:59 AM:name=Strayan (NS2HD))--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Strayan (NS2HD) @ Sep 18 2012, 03:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979338"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem is that 'if com wants to waste res on it' becomes the default option. Sentry guns that can kill players won't just kill players, but absolutely destroy pub play.
The decision to make sentry guns anti-structure weapons is undoubtedly controversial, but sentry guns that can kill players are not coming back.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've been playing since the past 7 years, when sentry kills skulks and haven't had any problem with "destroy pub play" (Refering to ns1). Turrent only have problems in NS2, becaues the game ain't properly balance yet.
<!--quoteo(post=1979338:date=Sep 17 2012, 10:59 PM:name=Strayan (NS2HD))--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Strayan (NS2HD) @ Sep 17 2012, 10:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979338"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem is that 'if com wants to waste res on it' becomes the default option. Sentry guns that can kill players won't just kill players, but absolutely destroy pub play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then this problem has been solved, because no commander wants to waste resources on sentries now.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The decision to make sentry guns anti-structure weapons is undoubtedly controversial, but sentry guns that can kill players are not coming back.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then they need a name change, as they are certainly not useful as a sentry, <i>per se</i>.
<!--quoteo(post=1979338:date=Sep 17 2012, 08:59 PM:name=Strayan (NS2HD))--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Strayan (NS2HD) @ Sep 17 2012, 08:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979338"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem is that 'if com wants to waste res on it' becomes the default option. Sentry guns that can kill players won't just kill players, but absolutely destroy pub play.
The decision to make sentry guns anti-structure weapons is undoubtedly controversial, but sentry guns that can kill players are not coming back.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Is there still a chance of sentry guns assisting player-kills coming back? I did like it when sentries weren't marine replacements, but were more like fire assistants. To have a sentry gun help you while the player does most of the heavy lifting.
I have always been a pub player at heart, so I would obviously not want to see it being ruined, but there is a possibility of it going far in the other direction, and being ruined in a different form. Often when I play marine and I am up against a Gorge locking down something like Onos Bar, that room is almost completely denied to me until we get GLs. We can all agree that the reason the room is held so well isn't just because there are hydras, but because there is a gorge keeping them alive. But now where is the Marine counterpart? The only way we can keep a room locked down is to load it with mines and players. It frustrates me immensely when I command the marines and I can't keep areas defended, and I call on the mic "observation is going down someone get over there" but no one listens. That destroys pub play for me, because I witness the destruction of our economy, and I cannot do anything about it. While sentries shouldn't be a room securer, they should at least make it so that unattended rooms are a more dangerous place to the lone skulk, possibly delaying the loss of an extractor until a marine can finally get there to secure it.
If the battery ammo idea were implemented, then it would be possible to drop just a lone sentry to guard that lone extractor. It will shoot for about 4 seconds and then that is it. Either it will have to be recycled or you would need to build a sentry battery to keep it supplied, but it will not be able to do anything else. I believe 4 seconds would be close to a fair amount of time to both be able to possibly kill the unwitting skulk, but to also be countered very easily by either dodging and wasting all the bullets, or to get behind and kill it.
No one in their right mind would waste ~25 res to keep a resource tower alive, which is exactly why I like it. It isn't a "because you can't" but a "because that's dumb". Is a forward base worth 25 res? What about 30? (2 sentry 1 battery.) That would be for the commander to decide.
The Hydra counterpoint Kopikat has made is a fairly strong one too. I don't particularly think sentries killing players is a bad thing. I believe the problem consists more of when sentries are taken out of control and the commander goes nuts with them. This is again where I believe the 'sentry battery ammo dispenser' idea would shine, because the limiter isn't the amount of sentries, but the frequency in which they shoot. Extended turtling would not be possible because of the demand for bullets would outweigh the supply it generates.
<!--quoteo(post=1979338:date=Sep 17 2012, 09:59 PM:name=Strayan (NS2HD))--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Strayan (NS2HD) @ Sep 17 2012, 09:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979338"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem is that 'if com wants to waste res on it' becomes the default option. Sentry guns that can kill players won't just kill players, but absolutely destroy pub play.
The decision to make sentry guns anti-structure weapons is undoubtedly controversial, but sentry guns that can kill players are not coming back.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I understand the argument, but what I'm hearing is that UWE really just doesn't like turrets anymore. If they're not supposed to be used against players they should be removed IMO. Their anti-structure functionality isn't intuitive, it doesn't really make sense and it definitely doesn't fill a clear role in the game.
For what it's worth I sort of like the idea of turrets being a player-purchased item like mines that can be carried and deployed in the field. It largely bypasses the issue of newb comms spamming them and could make for some interesting choices.
<!--quoteo(post=1979338:date=Sep 17 2012, 07:59 PM:name=Strayan (NS2HD))--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Strayan (NS2HD) @ Sep 17 2012, 07:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979338"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem is that 'if com wants to waste res on it' becomes the default option. Sentry guns that can kill players won't just kill players, but absolutely destroy pub play.
The decision to make sentry guns anti-structure weapons is undoubtedly controversial, but sentry guns that can kill players are not coming back.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then what do marines have as a defensive weapon (and don’t say mines)? What do marines have that could deter or stop a skulk, lerk or fade from harassing a marine base? Beacon pulls all the marines back but if it’s late game the exos generally get kill soon after.
You’re saying that “sentry guns that can kill players are not coming back†but that is exactly what alien commanders are using whips for many times. And man do they hurt, 38 life no armor and 1 hit from a whip and your dead.
<!--quoteo(post=1979395:date=Sep 17 2012, 11:16 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Sep 17 2012, 11:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979395"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I understand the argument, but what I'm hearing is that UWE really just doesn't like turrets anymore. If they're not supposed to be used against players they should be removed IMO. Their anti-structure functionality isn't intuitive, it doesn't really make sense and it definitely doesn't fill a clear role in the game.
For what it's worth I sort of like the idea of turrets being a player-purchased item like mines that can be carried and deployed in the field. It largely bypasses the issue of newb comms spamming them and could make for some interesting choices.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think that might be fairly appropriate actually. Especially if you could pick it up again for redeployment somewhere else. Although it doesn't help that in large pub games of 10v10, that would leave a possibility of 10 sentries being used in the same room.
This might work effectively in tandem with the ammo batteries too. Marines buy and place the sentries, Commander drops the more expensive batteries in places that it would most greatly benefit. It reinforces cooperation and collaborative discussion. Maybe a Marine could also hold 'e' to slowly "resupply" the sentry with his builder, but it would take much longer than a battery would. It would almost give the marine a possible engineer role, as well as increase the chances of a player buying both a welder and a sentry.
<!--quoteo(post=1979338:date=Sep 18 2012, 03:59 AM:name=Strayan (NS2HD))--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Strayan (NS2HD) @ Sep 18 2012, 03:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979338"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem is that 'if com wants to waste res on it' becomes the default option. Sentry guns that can kill players won't just kill players, but absolutely destroy pub play.
The decision to make sentry guns anti-structure weapons is undoubtedly controversial, but sentry guns that can kill players are not coming back.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Honestly, just get rid of them then. It will make for a better game then trying to fill the ARCs role.
If it has been decided that they shouldn't be able to keep 1 skulk away, then I feel they might as well be removed. The marines have far better, cheaper and more flexible weapons for killing structures.
I don't want to see turret farms that can kill Onos, but it would be nice to have something that could make skulks think twice about attacking an important position.
Wow, this is quite the disappointing turn of events. Sentries are never going back to being anti-player?
Might as well take them out of the game then, no one is going to spend money on what is essentially another ARC type structure. Hugely disappointed in this UWE decision. Surely there were several ways to make them anti-player without becoming anti-fun. But hey, I guess NS 1 pub-play sucked compared to NS 2 then, seeing how it had proper sentries.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't want to see turret farms that can kill Onos, but it would be nice to have something that could make skulks think twice about attacking an important position.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This
I like the idea of turrets being deployed by marines and having ~4s of ammunition. Gameplay wise they should be a alternative to mines and have health similar to a marine. I don't think you should be able to resupply them, the ammo is also used as their power source so in this state they are destroyed by any damage done to them.
<!--quoteo(post=1979338:date=Sep 18 2012, 05:59 AM:name=Strayan (NS2HD))--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Strayan (NS2HD) @ Sep 18 2012, 05:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979338"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem is that 'if com wants to waste res on it' becomes the default option. Sentry guns that can kill players won't just kill players, but absolutely destroy pub play.
The decision to make sentry guns anti-structure weapons is undoubtedly controversial, but sentry guns that can kill players are not coming back.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then you might as well remove them, along with mines, Hydras and Whips since those kill players as well. No one asked them to be insanely good, be hard to kill, just enough to buy time and assist marines.
How about learning from 10 years of NS1 on how to turrets are done right? Because the current implementation is a joke on many levels.
Where did this "Sentries destroy pub play" come from? I barely seen sentries used in game since their health was nerfed to hell. Is this based of PAX feedback from noobs that turret farmed and incompetent aliens that cried about it?
<!--quoteo(post=1979338:date=Sep 18 2012, 04:59 AM:name=Strayan (NS2HD))--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Strayan (NS2HD) @ Sep 18 2012, 04:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979338"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem is that 'if com wants to waste res on it' becomes the default option. Sentry guns that can kill players won't just kill players, but absolutely destroy pub play.
The decision to make sentry guns anti-structure weapons is undoubtedly controversial, but sentry guns that can kill players are not coming back.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Comments
So please, just revert their stats (keep them fragile or whatever) to what it was, so us commanders can actually use sentries as a viable strategy again. (I personally loved a fast TF to support early marine map presence, it was a huge and often the only help in situations where the marine team alone struggled to stay competitive as the mid game approached) There's many other ways to address turret farms, gimping the tactical use of a handful of sentries isn't one of them.
Then you can block the corridor off as a route for aliens. So essentially they act like a brick wall but can be flanked easily.
Alien movement is the biggest threat to marines in this game, and this basically forces aliens to take longer paths.
Also marines would have to place them like chess pieces adding tactical and strategic value, and because you can only have 1 per cc you can't turtle with them at last CC.
If they were implemented like this, not only would they match the ALIENS movies (Charlies dream, apart from Candy Mountain) but they would probably see use in clan matches.
I see no issue with this? Then you just have a secondary defence for the base. Mines are perfect tbh, and I didn't see any sentrys in public servers the previous build so it doesn't damage anything.
Charlie will probably be like 'God damn you Runteh' if he sees this video again, but I think this kind of thing would work well.
<center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/tri7q0HWUWE"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/tri7q0HWUWE" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've often thought that a numerically limited, but high health, high power turret that was primarily destroyed via flanking or swarm attacks, that could be used to bloster cut points (where enemies can cut into the marine path) would be a great idea.
Alternatively, you could keep the turrets as they are (without the silly battery requirement - it should all be built into a single object, the turret), but allow marines to place them with PRes like they do with mines. In this scenario, it gives marines an interesting dropped turret (much like the floating turret described above) that has low hp and low damage, but might JUST might give them the one second warning they need vs life forms (which the turret is weak against) or help with the assault on a hive (because the turrets are decent vs structures).
So please, just revert their stats (keep them fragile or whatever) to what it was, so us commanders can actually use sentries as a viable strategy again. (I personally loved a fast TF to support early marine map presence, it was a huge and often the only help in situations where the marine team alone struggled to stay competitive as the mid game approached) There's many other ways to address turret farms, gimping the tactical use of a handful of sentries isn't one of them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I also don't like that fast PG is pretty much the only viable strategy for marine commanders now. I think that going MF with turrets to help bolster early marine presence should also be a viable alternative. Turrets can be cheap and easily destroyed, but enough to keep a single lone skulk from being a serious problem and requiring whack-a-skulk.
Could be very wrong, but i think pg wasn't as dominant in ns1 because aliens didnt spawn so incredibly fast in huge spawn waves.
This is definitely a factor, but having useful sentries and electrocute was a very reasonable and fun alternative to always having to go phase gates for map control. I REALLY hate how they have essentially watered down the marine tech path to fast obs and phasegates on most maps.
Doesn't help that relocates generally never occur any more either. God it saddens me when I think of how much more varied marine gameplay and strategy was in NS 1.
Guess I'll have to start looking out for the NS 2 NS1 classic mod.
Combined with Blasphemy's idea of the battery being ammo regeneration and it might work really nicely.
- It stops random placement in rooms, forced by the need to place them close to the regen unit.
- 360 degree mode would be enough to cover a room, but too weak to cause an issue to PVP gameplay. I'm thinking a Skulk might go down in 8-15 seconds in 360 degree mode, so just gives marines a better chance hp wise.
- 30-40 degree mode would be great for covering corridors, but useless from rear attack. An 'anti-pg' kind of unit for marines, limiting alien movement or extending it through the map.
- Turtling would be impossible, because you'd end up with 1cc and therefore 1 sentry. So you'd have a choice between the two modes, but not enough to cover the base once aliens start pushing in.
- Weak turret/strong regen unit = easy to take down sentrys that are cheap, but can be renewed without too much cost.
- Becomes used tactically, with clans incorporating sentry positioning into their gameplay plans. This would filter into publics nicely.
If I could program in LUA (i've had a look already) I'd have mocked this idea up long ago. I'd love to see someone do this, just to see what it would be like.
I guess it's easier to just dumb down gameplay instead, cater solely to the FPS crowd that just wants to jump in and kill things immediately. (Playing careful or using smart positioning or teamplay is apparently too difficult for these people) Nobody complained about this in NS 1, I don't even see why this is being brought up in NS 2.
If you guys remember the Supreme Commander games, they had a very special way of doing their economy, which was one of their flagship features. That was the Mass and Power system. The only hard cap in the game was the amount of units (which you could define) for every player. Ranging from 250 to 1000. But that you would never reach, your real leash was the economy. You could build whatever you wanted, as long as you had the infrastructure to support it. And that would be primarily determined by how many extractors or generators you had, and at what level they had.
The generators/extractors would generate a particular amount of res/tick, and that would be what you would use to build your armies. It was very easy to understand, but very difficult to master. Often you would crash your own economy before you would even see the enemy if you were new.
That kind of idea is something I believe NS could use very well. Why should we have to limit sentries to a hard limit when we could just manipulate the sentry effectiveness instead. If you had the economy and the will, you could turn sentries into a very effective hard defense, or if you were scratched for cash, they could be a cheap support.
You could drop a $5 sentry and it will shoot for 4 seconds, but then what? No ammo, no shooty, so you would have to drop your battery and it will resupply and everything will be lovely once again. But then, you would have spent $25. Alternatively you could have just dropped another four sentries, and they would probably rip anything a new orifice, but it would not be sustainable. Once those four seconds are up, those sentries are all useless.
What if we were to make it so sentries wouldn't give you res from recycling? What if you could upgrade batteries (individually) to resupply at a higher rate? What if we could upgrade extractors (individually) so they give more res per tick? Manipulating the economy sounds like a perfect fit for the Marines. To be able to invest in a higher infrastructure, allowing higher yield.
If com wants to waste res on it ofc.
If com wants to waste res on it ofc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That would be terrible.
Turrets should only buy time for marines soften up lifeforms, like hydras currently do.
Making them cost a ton and buffing them to insane levels will just make them frustrating for both teams.
<!--quoteo(post=1979257:date=Sep 18 2012, 02:00 AM:name=Blasphemy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Blasphemy @ Sep 18 2012, 02:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979257"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't believe hard caps are particularly necessary. To me they seem like an "easy out" to a solution that could be much more complicated and diverse. As long as they are designed so that the player can easily understand what is going on, complication shouldn't be bad.
If you guys remember the Supreme Commander games, they had a very special way of doing their economy, which was one of their flagship features. That was the Mass and Power system. The only hard cap in the game was the amount of units (which you could define) for every player. Ranging from 250 to 1000. But that you would never reach, your real leash was the economy. You could build whatever you wanted, as long as you had the infrastructure to support it. And that would be primarily determined by how many extractors or generators you had, and at what level they had.
The generators/extractors would generate a particular amount of res/tick, and that would be what you would use to build your armies. It was very easy to understand, but very difficult to master. Often you would crash your own economy before you would even see the enemy if you were new.
That kind of idea is something I believe NS could use very well. Why should we have to limit sentries to a hard limit when we could just manipulate the sentry effectiveness instead. If you had the economy and the will, you could turn sentries into a very effective hard defense, or if you were scratched for cash, they could be a cheap support.
You could drop a $5 sentry and it will shoot for 4 seconds, but then what? No ammo, no shooty, so you would have to drop your battery and it will resupply and everything will be lovely once again. But then, you would have spent $25. Alternatively you could have just dropped another four sentries, and they would probably rip anything a new orifice, but it would not be sustainable. Once those four seconds are up, those sentries are all useless.
What if we were to make it so sentries wouldn't give you res from recycling? What if you could upgrade batteries (individually) to resupply at a higher rate? What if we could upgrade extractors (individually) so they give more res per tick? Manipulating the economy sounds like a perfect fit for the Marines. To be able to invest in a higher infrastructure, allowing higher yield.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem is that if they cost too much, they're useless and are never used.
Especially considering you need to go robotics.
There's also the problem of endgame marine turret spam just to prolong the inevitable loss.
Not to mention destroy tick-rates.
Capping them to 3 per power-node with a lower res cost with none of that battery and anti-structure nonsense would keep them relevant while also keeping the spam down.
Just like Hydras are 3 per player.
Turrets would actually keep fades and sulks busy, buying time and softening them up while marines phase in to defend a tech point.
Because right now, I see A LOT of games lost "in the phase gate":
-3 fades camp a gate
-all the marines phase
-they all die, lose their shotguns
-tech point lost, commander panics
-fades pick of most of the marines trying to re-expand
-gg
I still find it odd, its so much easier to just roll arcs in and blast everything to pieces than it is to exo spam. Much less hassle on everyones part and generally more effective overall.
Especially considering you need to go robotics.
There's also the problem of endgame marine turret spam just to prolong the inevitable loss.
Not to mention destroy tick-rates.
Capping them to 3 per power-node with a lower res cost with none of that battery and anti-structure nonsense would keep them relevant while also keeping the spam down.
Just like Hydras are 3 per player.
Turrets would actually keep fades and sulks busy, buying time and softening them up while marines phase in to defend a tech point.
Because right now, I see A LOT of games lost "in the phase gate":
-3 fades camp a gate
-all the marines phase
-they all die, lose their shotguns
-tech point lost, commander panics
-fades pick of most of the marines trying to re-expand
-gg<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But a hard cap such as that makes it difficult to control rooms with more entrances than you can have turrets covering, thus leading to less flexibility in sentry placement. Instead of placing the sentries at doors to watch the halls, you are forced to keep them watching the room itself.
Restricting sentries to 3, just because a gorge can only have three is awfully shortsighted in my opinion. What about when you have two gorges? Then there are six hydras in a room while marines only have 3. This is comparing an individual player to an entire team as the basis for reasoning.
While I have no qualms with dropping the damage over time bit, I am absolutely against a hard cap of 3 sentries per room/tech point. It is too restrictive. It is too unimaginative. Instead of the commander saying "we can't drop another sentry because we can't afford it", it is "we can't drop another sentry because we just can't". You should be forced to choose between whether we want an early shotgun or early phase or early sentry, and the commander going from a personal preference. He should be thinking "Should I spend a little bit more to get sentries instead of shotguns? We can't really get lerks that well, but we should have an advantage against skulks."
Of course, the targeting for the sentries has to be improved either way. A lot of misconceptions people are having about the sentries in general are that they don't do enough damage. While this is true in 219 because of the DOT, people were assuming this in 218 and below. The problem about sentries not doing enough damage isn't in the damage values themselves, it is just because they aren't shooting to begin with. Something happened to them and they just haven't been reliably engaging what they are supposed to.
I believe that if this targeting system were to be fixed, and the DOT removed and sent back to previous values, and having a financial restriction in the embodiment of an ammo dispenser system, we could return sentries to being one of the commander's favorite strategies as well as providing many opportunites for different gameplay styles.
If com wants to waste res on it ofc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem is that 'if com wants to waste res on it' becomes the default option. Sentry guns that can kill players won't just kill players, but absolutely destroy pub play.
The decision to make sentry guns anti-structure weapons is undoubtedly controversial, but sentry guns that can kill players are not coming back.
The decision to make sentry guns anti-structure weapons is undoubtedly controversial, but sentry guns that can kill players are not coming back.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then why are Hydras and, to a lesser extent, Whips allowed to stay as they are? Hydras don't even have the restrictions that Sentries do (Light-type damage, limited FOV, can only be placed on the floor, sizable tres cost as opposed to a minor pres cost, etc). Not all Marine weapons are ranged (or effective at range) just like not all lifeforms are limited to melee.
Edit: In fact, Hydras were buffed recently specifically so that they'd be better at player killing.
The decision to make sentry guns anti-structure weapons is undoubtedly controversial, but sentry guns that can kill players are not coming back.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've been playing since the past 7 years, when sentry kills skulks and haven't had any problem with "destroy pub play" (Refering to ns1). Turrent only have problems in NS2, becaues the game ain't properly balance yet.
Then this problem has been solved, because no commander wants to waste resources on sentries now.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The decision to make sentry guns anti-structure weapons is undoubtedly controversial, but sentry guns that can kill players are not coming back.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then they need a name change, as they are certainly not useful as a sentry, <i>per se</i>.
(Look at me, bringing this thread full circle!)
The decision to make sentry guns anti-structure weapons is undoubtedly controversial, but sentry guns that can kill players are not coming back.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Is there still a chance of sentry guns assisting player-kills coming back? I did like it when sentries weren't marine replacements, but were more like fire assistants. To have a sentry gun help you while the player does most of the heavy lifting.
I have always been a pub player at heart, so I would obviously not want to see it being ruined, but there is a possibility of it going far in the other direction, and being ruined in a different form. Often when I play marine and I am up against a Gorge locking down something like Onos Bar, that room is almost completely denied to me until we get GLs. We can all agree that the reason the room is held so well isn't just because there are hydras, but because there is a gorge keeping them alive. But now where is the Marine counterpart? The only way we can keep a room locked down is to load it with mines and players. It frustrates me immensely when I command the marines and I can't keep areas defended, and I call on the mic "observation is going down someone get over there" but no one listens. That destroys pub play for me, because I witness the destruction of our economy, and I cannot do anything about it. While sentries shouldn't be a room securer, they should at least make it so that unattended rooms are a more dangerous place to the lone skulk, possibly delaying the loss of an extractor until a marine can finally get there to secure it.
If the battery ammo idea were implemented, then it would be possible to drop just a lone sentry to guard that lone extractor. It will shoot for about 4 seconds and then that is it. Either it will have to be recycled or you would need to build a sentry battery to keep it supplied, but it will not be able to do anything else. I believe 4 seconds would be close to a fair amount of time to both be able to possibly kill the unwitting skulk, but to also be countered very easily by either dodging and wasting all the bullets, or to get behind and kill it.
No one in their right mind would waste ~25 res to keep a resource tower alive, which is exactly why I like it. It isn't a "because you can't" but a "because that's dumb". Is a forward base worth 25 res? What about 30? (2 sentry 1 battery.) That would be for the commander to decide.
The Hydra counterpoint Kopikat has made is a fairly strong one too. I don't particularly think sentries killing players is a bad thing. I believe the problem consists more of when sentries are taken out of control and the commander goes nuts with them. This is again where I believe the 'sentry battery ammo dispenser' idea would shine, because the limiter isn't the amount of sentries, but the frequency in which they shoot. Extended turtling would not be possible because of the demand for bullets would outweigh the supply it generates.
The decision to make sentry guns anti-structure weapons is undoubtedly controversial, but sentry guns that can kill players are not coming back.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I understand the argument, but what I'm hearing is that UWE really just doesn't like turrets anymore. If they're not supposed to be used against players they should be removed IMO. Their anti-structure functionality isn't intuitive, it doesn't really make sense and it definitely doesn't fill a clear role in the game.
For what it's worth I sort of like the idea of turrets being a player-purchased item like mines that can be carried and deployed in the field. It largely bypasses the issue of newb comms spamming them and could make for some interesting choices.
The decision to make sentry guns anti-structure weapons is undoubtedly controversial, but sentry guns that can kill players are not coming back.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then what do marines have as a defensive weapon (and don’t say mines)? What do marines have that could deter or stop a skulk, lerk or fade from harassing a marine base? Beacon pulls all the marines back but if it’s late game the exos generally get kill soon after.
You’re saying that “sentry guns that can kill players are not coming back†but that is exactly what alien commanders are using whips for many times. And man do they hurt, 38 life no armor and 1 hit from a whip and your dead.
For what it's worth I sort of like the idea of turrets being a player-purchased item like mines that can be carried and deployed in the field. It largely bypasses the issue of newb comms spamming them and could make for some interesting choices.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think that might be fairly appropriate actually. Especially if you could pick it up again for redeployment somewhere else. Although it doesn't help that in large pub games of 10v10, that would leave a possibility of 10 sentries being used in the same room.
This might work effectively in tandem with the ammo batteries too. Marines buy and place the sentries, Commander drops the more expensive batteries in places that it would most greatly benefit. It reinforces cooperation and collaborative discussion. Maybe a Marine could also hold 'e' to slowly "resupply" the sentry with his builder, but it would take much longer than a battery would. It would almost give the marine a possible engineer role, as well as increase the chances of a player buying both a welder and a sentry.
The decision to make sentry guns anti-structure weapons is undoubtedly controversial, but sentry guns that can kill players are not coming back.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Honestly, just get rid of them then. It will make for a better game then trying to fill the ARCs role.
I don't want to see turret farms that can kill Onos, but it would be nice to have something that could make skulks think twice about attacking an important position.
Might as well take them out of the game then, no one is going to spend money on what is essentially another ARC type structure.
Hugely disappointed in this UWE decision. Surely there were several ways to make them anti-player without becoming anti-fun. But hey, I guess NS 1 pub-play sucked compared to NS 2 then, seeing how it had proper sentries.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't want to see turret farms that can kill Onos, but it would be nice to have something that could make skulks think twice about attacking an important position.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This
we dont need features that arent needed, its nothing but fluff
The decision to make sentry guns anti-structure weapons is undoubtedly controversial, but sentry guns that can kill players are not coming back.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then you might as well remove them, along with mines, Hydras and Whips since those kill players as well.
No one asked them to be insanely good, be hard to kill, just enough to buy time and assist marines.
How about learning from 10 years of NS1 on how to turrets are done right?
Because the current implementation is a joke on many levels.
Where did this "Sentries destroy pub play" come from?
I barely seen sentries used in game since their health was nerfed to hell.
Is this based of PAX feedback from noobs that turret farmed and incompetent aliens that cried about it?
The decision to make sentry guns anti-structure weapons is undoubtedly controversial, but sentry guns that can kill players are not coming back.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Me sad =(