<!--quoteo(post=1999322:date=Oct 28 2012, 09:50 PM:name=RedDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RedDragon @ Oct 28 2012, 09:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999322"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The root of this problem is poor planning and a fundamental lack of a rigid design philosophy.
Lifeforms are confused. Team mechanics are confused. Cooldowns are confused. Balance goes deeper than numbers, and this game has issues at the concept level.
Its a problem that requires a solution too dramatic to ever be undertaken by UWE.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1999331:date=Oct 28 2012, 10:07 PM:name=RedDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RedDragon @ Oct 28 2012, 10:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999331"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Whats happened is that the game has been designed around a very loose agreement as to what these asymmetrical teams should "look like" without much thought to a rigid design plan. And now we've gone through 225 builds of tweaks based on this very loose conceptualization of game mechanics (many of these builds taking no consideration of how future performance increases will effect mechanics or gameplay) and we're left with a system that is held together by little more than bandaids.
Prove me wrong, and I will be forever grateful. Because I love this game, I truly do. But I don't think I am wrong, which is honestly rather depressing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I dont think thats entirely true, I believe with certain adjustments the game could become quite balanced even with the current resource system, but it will take some changes that are somewhat unpopular, and also some to changes that are 'forbidden'.
This isnt really the place to go over such a list, but I think many here already know the changes I would suggest/make.
<!--quoteo(post=1999756:date=Oct 29 2012, 07:45 AM:name=maD maX)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (maD maX @ Oct 29 2012, 07:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999756"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As a PUB player I rarely see this. turns out in a 9v9 or 10v10 game, giving 8 or 9 players celerity/leap instead of 1 player (who may not know what he's doing) an onos egg just doesn't keep the pub happy and 9 rines take down an onos much faster then 5.
Conclusion, this seems like a competitive problem answer? Make it a competitive solution.... Whoever is hosting the tourney has the responsibility of creating a competitive atmosphere, CREATE TOURNY rules....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In 9v9 or 10v10 games, the problem isn't as severe because there are theoretically 8 or 9 guns against the onos, whereas in a 6v6 game there are 5 guns against it (almost double in a PUB).
However, I will usually drop an onos as a com if I'm playing alien and we seem to be having trouble obtaining and keeping more than 3 RTs consistently. If we're winning without an onos (i.e. 4-5 RTs and I have the impression that we're winning skirmishes/pushing back well), sure I'll "screw around" and get upgrades and stuff, but a 5:00-6:00 onos often ends games even in a pub. You only need 2 or 3 people to really know what they're doing (the onos himself and 1-2 gorges with him) to end the game, and even in a pub there's usually 2 or 3 competent people to do that.
And by "ending the game" I don't necessarily mean literally end the game. I mean confine the marines to 2 tech points / 3 RTs, which effectively ends the game through res domination.
You're right, it does. And I apologize if doing so in any way undermines anyone elses posts. Its important to have these discussions, but more important that they be taken seriously. My post does not help with the latter.
The truth though, is that there is only so much we can discuss when it comes to balance issues. Especially if the root of whatever problem we're discussing is as deep as the concept or design level.
Most of the solutions discussed on the forums are soft tweaks to numerical values, rather than a large scale evaluation of game balance. And rightfully so, as the latter is both tediuous and difficult.
Again, I apologize if my previous post comes across as pretentious or rude. But I'm very frustrated with these problems, and even more so by the knowledge that a real solution to any of them is outside the realm of what developers are willing to consider. Or at least it appears to be.
So the issue with the majority of people complaining about the 5 minute onos is that they are not familiar with how to play against it.
I'll explain this extremely simply:
Kill RT's and it won't be 5 minutes if at all.
Granted hit reg issues might be making this difficult at the moment, but in 223 we had equally many whiners about fast onos op. It's not necessarily OP, it's just boring. Please learn to understand the difference.
<!--quoteo(post=1999811:date=Oct 29 2012, 09:49 AM:name=eh?)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (eh? @ Oct 29 2012, 09:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999811"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So the issue with the majority of people complaining about the 5 minute onos is that they are not familiar with how to play against it.
I'll explain this extremely simply:
Kill RT's and it won't be 5 minutes if at all.
Granted hit reg issues might be making this difficult at the moment, but in 223 we had equally many whiners about fast onos op. It's not necessarily OP, it's just boring. Please learn to understand the difference.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This whole thread is about how this is a frequently used strategy in tourney games. It's doable with only a few RTs. And the fact that it's boring is also a problem.
Yeah it's doable with only a few RT's, and if you're making them fewer it's entirely possible to beat it by getting far enough ahead before it arrives.
When you have to save 75 res for an onos instead of getting something else you have a fairly large window of opportunity to just win the game. And that's why better teams do.
increased drop cost is probably the easiest short term fix to push it out a couple mins.
you could also require a pres onos to be deployed first. that would remove it as a rush strategy & khamm drops would be later game supplements. not sayin it's ideal, but would move it out a bit.
Not OP? To be fair, I saw the majority of marine teams struggle the moment it came out, despite actually having a solid lead over aliens all the way up to that point (And to be honest this is another problem in itself, aliens are really not competitive until second hive, with the onos drop often being a gamechanger) It's not OP in a sense that it will instantly win games, but it is OP in a sense that it allows aliens to hold on in a situation they would otherwise inevitably lose several minutes down the road. (Marines can have a huge lead in tech and p.res but the onos can bring both teams more or less on equal footing again, it buys aliens much needed time to get some fades and second hive abilities out that will then allow them to overcome marines entirely)
There is not a single other 'tech' investment that has such an impact on the game, 5-6 minutess into a game.
The onos is only one part of the problem though, aliens also simply need to become a lot more competitive, even without a second hive.
Well keep in mind RT's are not one to one in terms of effectiveness. 3 uncontested alien RT's early in the game is essentially 6-7 uncontested marine RT's. You need to be keeping aliens to 2 RT's a decent percent of the time or atleast forcing them to redrop RT's. Marines are the aggressors not the aliens. Atleast until a decent amount of tech has arrived for aliens.
So when people say that the game looked pretty even, I'm wondering what lens they're viewing the game through to determine "hmm that looks pretty even."
Every game of the NA Razer tournament that I watched with maybe the exception of two looked like an absolute alien roflstomp from my perspective. Marines were leaving aliens with up to 4 uncontested RT's
Mathematically speaking, Aliens need something like double the total amount of Tres that Marines do to flesh out their tech tree (if I recall correctly). Their lifeforms also cost more, on average, than Marine weapons.
Lerks > Shotguns Fades > GLs Oni > Exosuits Oni = Dual Exo
Why is it then, that 3 RTs of alien income is equal to 6 RTs of Marine income? It's because 3 RTs is all you need to rush Onos and win.
Well the logic behind the onos at this point is more to hold those 3 RT's, maybe 4 so you can mass fade.
If aliens are playing extremely well early game and killing cappers, denying res, etc then the early onos probably is GG.
But aliens doing really well early game is a byproduct of 224/225, just look at the 223 games with reasonable hitreg and see how much poorer the onos faired.
<!--quoteo(post=1999865:date=Oct 29 2012, 11:45 AM:name=eh?)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (eh? @ Oct 29 2012, 11:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999865"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well the logic behind the onos at this point is more to hold those 3 RT's, maybe 4 so you can mass fade.
If aliens are playing extremely well early game and killing cappers, denying res, etc then the early onos probably is GG.
But aliens doing really well early game is a byproduct of 224/225, just look at the 223 games with reasonable hitreg and see how much poorer the onos faired.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So aliens doing well early game is what we need to address, instead of the onos?
I'd say wait for hitreg to be addressed and then revisit the issue and see if teams still can't deny / delay early onos when marines are extremely effective early game again.
nadyliJoin Date: 2007-11-01Member: 62791Members, Squad Five Blue
I personally don't see this "5min onos" a problem, either control your enemies RTs or exploit onoses weaknesses. They're after all putting all their eggs in one basket.
They are putting all their eggs in one basket. However, when that "basket" wins games by itself, and even marines with 5+ RTs can't counter it effectively in time while aliens have only had 3, that's kind of a problem.
A few oni in the tournament did die, eventually, but they enabled aliens to have pretty nice map pressure/domination either by keeping marines busy defending or just destroying things or draining p.res by killing jetpackers etc. .
And the argument isn't that oni are invulnerable or something. The argument is that they're way too formidable for 5-6 minutes into the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1999911:date=Oct 29 2012, 08:37 AM:name=nadyli)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (nadyli @ Oct 29 2012, 08:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999911"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I personally don't see this "5min onos" a problem, either control your enemies RTs or exploit onoses weaknesses. They're after all putting all their eggs in one basket.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Except that you can't 'Exploit an onos weaknesses'. There are none in the current incarnation. It is an unstoppable tank of presence that cannot be ignored and avoided (Or it will stomp your map control to zero), and it cannot be ganged up on and killed unless it makes a grievous, horrible error in gameplay and overextends HUGELY. One onos died in 5 of the matches of the finals between us and inversion.
'Controlling RT's' isn't really feasible either, as you have to literally shut the aliens to 2 RT's or less within the first 4 minutes. That means you absolutely have to 100% completely dominate the skulk/vanilla marine game, which should not be expected much less 'required for even a chance to win'. We saw this, again, in EVERY match of the finals between us and inversion last night.
We tried some desperate concepts; immediately rush JP (We got Jp's about 10s before they got Onos on 3 RT's), this doesn't work because JP's aren't a counter to the current incarnation of Onos, especially in a 6-man setup. We tried rushing W3 and controlling RT's, they still got an Onos with 2 RT's at 8 minutes.
They tried the same to us, locking us into DC/Atrium and we STILL had a quick onos that literally solo-won the entire game by sheer presence. They had to leave 4 in VEntilation just to keep it from stomping down into their only other techpoint, and had no choice but to forgo the rest of the map, and ended up forfeiting 2 minutes later.
The strategy is currently not feasible to beat; yes it CAN be beaten, but only by an entirely dominant team and only under the most amazing of marine-favored games. The marines have to play an exponentially level better than the aliens to defeat the early-onos, because once it's out, it is too much of a powerful denial force to even contend with outside of absolute full W3/A3.
In the last match, we saw 3 onos. 6 players with W3 can't even begin to harm 3 onos. Really, they can't even harm two. The solo onos is arguably 'possible' to kill, but not so long as it sits in a defensive posture and just plays control/denial. This is imbalanced, and needs fixing.
I mean, saying 'LOL HITREG' as half EVERY COMPETITIVE TEAM multiple times throughout the tournament is okay. (Unless you're eh).
Be careful about stating that the onos is over-resilient, though. /Banned?
nadyliJoin Date: 2007-11-01Member: 62791Members, Squad Five Blue
edited October 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1999926:date=Oct 29 2012, 06:48 PM:name=HeatSurge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge @ Oct 29 2012, 06:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999926"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They are putting all their eggs in one basket. However, when that "basket" wins games by itself, and even marines with 5+ RTs can't counter it effectively in time while aliens have only had 3, that's kind of a problem.
A few oni in the tournament did die, eventually, but they enabled aliens to have pretty nice map pressure/domination either by keeping marines busy defending or just destroying things or draining p.res by killing jetpackers etc. .
And the argument isn't that oni are invulnerable or something. The argument is that they're way too formidable for 5-6 minutes into the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why are you thinking marine and alien RTs are equal? As marines you are the aggressor most of the time and you HAVE to keep the alien RT count down. There is no excuse to let aliens have 2 or more RTs in competitive game and expect to win.
It's a tournament not a pub, as such you can establish rules for a 6v6 game.
Do not change a game based on results from a tournament, most games of ns2 are not 6v6 or competitive and game should be built around the pub player. (More pub players = more money)
A thread discussing possible competitive rules for 6v6 would be more constructive. Alternatively create a competitive mod balanced for 6v6
<!--quoteo(post=1999961:date=Oct 29 2012, 05:14 PM:name=eh?)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (eh? @ Oct 29 2012, 05:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999961"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This isn't a "rule" issue.
It is a balance issue, and the balance applies to both public and competitive play. There is no distinction needed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is not a pub issue, if it was 90% of pub games would see this as is most pubs are celerity-leap-cara not onos....
<!--quoteo(post=1999934:date=Oct 29 2012, 10:52 AM:name=nadyli)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (nadyli @ Oct 29 2012, 10:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999934"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why are you thinking marine and alien RTs are equal? As marines you are the aggressor most of the time and you HAVE to keep the alien RT count down. There is no excuse to let aliens have 2 or more RTs in competitive game and expect to win.
EDIT to include quote.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not saying they're equal. I'm saying that in the "common" marine/alien match where aliens have 3 RTs and marines 5+, it's pretty hard for marines to counter an onos effectively that early.
Obviosly you have more experience in comp. play, since I'm not on a comp. team though. But what I saw this weekend is marines consistently struggling to keep the onos blocked/away at 6:00 (even with a jetpack rush which was done in one game) when it's already out and poised to take down some forward phase gate, including easily winning the final game on the US tournament.
there could be a time tradeoff for comm dropped eggs.
one thing that i find ridiculous about comm-dropped eggs is the speed at which they evolve, seems that you pop out near instantaneously whereas if you bought the lifeform you'd have to take 15-30s to evolve.
if, instead, comm dropped eggs had a 45s egg grow time time for fades and a 90s egg grow time for onos, on top of having the evolution happen at normal speed that would make it a very valid tradeoff - being able to replace lost lifeforms, at the cost of having less players on the field for a critical window where the opponent can capitalize.
this means that a 6m tres onos now would come out at ~ 8minutes instead, which would give marines time to scout it and counter it.
Problem is obviously with the uselessness of alien gameplay in general. Once hitreg is back the problem is going to explode again. Many people seem to think the glancing bite from 224 fixed skulk, but I would say its actually the decreased marine effectiveness. Make vanilla skulks faster and smaller or slow down marines, one or the other and nerf shotguns effectiveness at range.
Well to be fair, they had jetpacks with weapon 0 / armor 0. That is a horrendous waste of 10 pres.
And the armory blocking would of been effective if while the onos was tied up fighting an armory marines were actually killing an RT or two. Instead of just turtling.
You can get away with turtling on veil, but not summit.
edit: Wheee: the comm dropped eggs do have an evolve time. It might actually be somewhere around 45 seconds too (for onos).
<!--quoteo(post=1999975:date=Oct 29 2012, 11:27 AM:name=eh?)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (eh? @ Oct 29 2012, 11:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999975"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well to be fair, they had jetpacks with weapon 0 / armor 0. That is a horrendous waste of 10 pres.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, they did. But you can't have weapon/armor and jetpacks at 6:00, which is... kind of the problem :-) .
<!--quoteo(post=1999970:date=Oct 29 2012, 01:24 PM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Oct 29 2012, 01:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999970"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->there could be a time tradeoff for comm dropped eggs.
one thing that i find ridiculous about comm-dropped eggs is the speed at which they evolve, seems that you pop out near instantaneously whereas if you bought the lifeform you'd have to take 15-30s to evolve.
if, instead, comm dropped eggs had a 45s egg grow time time for fades and a 90s egg grow time for onos, on top of having the evolution happen at normal speed that would make it a very valid tradeoff - being able to replace lost lifeforms, at the cost of having less players on the field for a critical window where the opponent can capitalize.
this means that a 6m tres onos now would come out at ~ 8minutes instead, which would give marines time to scout it and counter it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> There is a build time for dropped eggs, but that time can be paid while the alien player is off doing other things. When the alien player actually jumps in it is near instant. Perhaps changing that would help a little bit, make the alien player still have to spend his time evolving inside the egg?
Comments
Lifeforms are confused. Team mechanics are confused. Cooldowns are confused. Balance goes deeper than numbers, and this game has issues at the concept level.
Its a problem that requires a solution too dramatic to ever be undertaken by UWE.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1999331:date=Oct 28 2012, 10:07 PM:name=RedDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RedDragon @ Oct 28 2012, 10:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999331"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Whats happened is that the game has been designed around a very loose agreement as to what these asymmetrical teams should "look like" without much thought to a rigid design plan. And now we've gone through 225 builds of tweaks based on this very loose conceptualization of game mechanics (many of these builds taking no consideration of how future performance increases will effect mechanics or gameplay) and we're left with a system that is held together by little more than bandaids.
Prove me wrong, and I will be forever grateful. Because I love this game, I truly do. But I don't think I am wrong, which is honestly rather depressing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
/thread
This isnt really the place to go over such a list, but I think many here already know the changes I would suggest/make.
Conclusion, this seems like a competitive problem answer? Make it a competitive solution.... Whoever is hosting the tourney has the responsibility of creating a competitive atmosphere, CREATE TOURNY rules....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In 9v9 or 10v10 games, the problem isn't as severe because there are theoretically 8 or 9 guns against the onos, whereas in a 6v6 game there are 5 guns against it (almost double in a PUB).
However, I will usually drop an onos as a com if I'm playing alien and we seem to be having trouble obtaining and keeping more than 3 RTs consistently. If we're winning without an onos (i.e. 4-5 RTs and I have the impression that we're winning skirmishes/pushing back well), sure I'll "screw around" and get upgrades and stuff, but a 5:00-6:00 onos often ends games even in a pub. You only need 2 or 3 people to really know what they're doing (the onos himself and 1-2 gorges with him) to end the game, and even in a pub there's usually 2 or 3 competent people to do that.
And by "ending the game" I don't necessarily mean literally end the game. I mean confine the marines to 2 tech points / 3 RTs, which effectively ends the game through res domination.
I sort of agree with you, but quoting yourself and say /thread just makes you look like a massive ######.
The truth though, is that there is only so much we can discuss when it comes to balance issues. Especially if the root of whatever problem we're discussing is as deep as the concept or design level.
Most of the solutions discussed on the forums are soft tweaks to numerical values, rather than a large scale evaluation of game balance. And rightfully so, as the latter is both tediuous and difficult.
Again, I apologize if my previous post comes across as pretentious or rude. But I'm very frustrated with these problems, and even more so by the knowledge that a real solution to any of them is outside the realm of what developers are willing to consider. Or at least it appears to be.
I'll explain this extremely simply:
Kill RT's and it won't be 5 minutes if at all.
Granted hit reg issues might be making this difficult at the moment, but in 223 we had equally many whiners about fast onos op. It's not necessarily OP, it's just boring. Please learn to understand the difference.
I'll explain this extremely simply:
Kill RT's and it won't be 5 minutes if at all.
Granted hit reg issues might be making this difficult at the moment, but in 223 we had equally many whiners about fast onos op. It's not necessarily OP, it's just boring. Please learn to understand the difference.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This whole thread is about how this is a frequently used strategy in tourney games. It's doable with only a few RTs. And the fact that it's boring is also a problem.
When you have to save 75 res for an onos instead of getting something else you have a fairly large window of opportunity to just win the game. And that's why better teams do.
you could also require a pres onos to be deployed first. that would remove it as a rush strategy & khamm drops would be later game supplements. not sayin it's ideal, but would move it out a bit.
^^^^^^^^ Yes I do realise that almost means completely re-doing the balance of the game.
There is not a single other 'tech' investment that has such an impact on the game, 5-6 minutess into a game.
The onos is only one part of the problem though, aliens also simply need to become a lot more competitive, even without a second hive.
So when people say that the game looked pretty even, I'm wondering what lens they're viewing the game through to determine "hmm that looks pretty even."
Every game of the NA Razer tournament that I watched with maybe the exception of two looked like an absolute alien roflstomp from my perspective. Marines were leaving aliens with up to 4 uncontested RT's
Lerks > Shotguns
Fades > GLs
Oni > Exosuits
Oni = Dual Exo
Why is it then, that 3 RTs of alien income is equal to 6 RTs of Marine income? It's because 3 RTs is all you need to rush Onos and win.
If aliens are playing extremely well early game and killing cappers, denying res, etc then the early onos probably is GG.
But aliens doing really well early game is a byproduct of 224/225, just look at the 223 games with reasonable hitreg and see how much poorer the onos faired.
If aliens are playing extremely well early game and killing cappers, denying res, etc then the early onos probably is GG.
But aliens doing really well early game is a byproduct of 224/225, just look at the 223 games with reasonable hitreg and see how much poorer the onos faired.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So aliens doing well early game is what we need to address, instead of the onos?
A few oni in the tournament did die, eventually, but they enabled aliens to have pretty nice map pressure/domination either by keeping marines busy defending or just destroying things or draining p.res by killing jetpackers etc. .
And the argument isn't that oni are invulnerable or something. The argument is that they're way too formidable for 5-6 minutes into the game.
Except that you can't 'Exploit an onos weaknesses'. There are none in the current incarnation. It is an unstoppable tank of presence that cannot be ignored and avoided (Or it will stomp your map control to zero), and it cannot be ganged up on and killed unless it makes a grievous, horrible error in gameplay and overextends HUGELY. One onos died in 5 of the matches of the finals between us and inversion.
'Controlling RT's' isn't really feasible either, as you have to literally shut the aliens to 2 RT's or less within the first 4 minutes. That means you absolutely have to 100% completely dominate the skulk/vanilla marine game, which should not be expected much less 'required for even a chance to win'. We saw this, again, in EVERY match of the finals between us and inversion last night.
We tried some desperate concepts; immediately rush JP (We got Jp's about 10s before they got Onos on 3 RT's), this doesn't work because JP's aren't a counter to the current incarnation of Onos, especially in a 6-man setup. We tried rushing W3 and controlling RT's, they still got an Onos with 2 RT's at 8 minutes.
They tried the same to us, locking us into DC/Atrium and we STILL had a quick onos that literally solo-won the entire game by sheer presence. They had to leave 4 in VEntilation just to keep it from stomping down into their only other techpoint, and had no choice but to forgo the rest of the map, and ended up forfeiting 2 minutes later.
The strategy is currently not feasible to beat; yes it CAN be beaten, but only by an entirely dominant team and only under the most amazing of marine-favored games. The marines have to play an exponentially level better than the aliens to defeat the early-onos, because once it's out, it is too much of a powerful denial force to even contend with outside of absolute full W3/A3.
In the last match, we saw 3 onos. 6 players with W3 can't even begin to harm 3 onos. Really, they can't even harm two. The solo onos is arguably 'possible' to kill, but not so long as it sits in a defensive posture and just plays control/denial. This is imbalanced, and needs fixing.
I mean, saying 'LOL HITREG' as half EVERY COMPETITIVE TEAM multiple times throughout the tournament is okay. (Unless you're eh).
Be careful about stating that the onos is over-resilient, though.
/Banned?
A few oni in the tournament did die, eventually, but they enabled aliens to have pretty nice map pressure/domination either by keeping marines busy defending or just destroying things or draining p.res by killing jetpackers etc. .
And the argument isn't that oni are invulnerable or something. The argument is that they're way too formidable for 5-6 minutes into the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why are you thinking marine and alien RTs are equal? As marines you are the aggressor most of the time and you HAVE to keep the alien RT count down. There is no excuse to let aliens have 2 or more RTs in competitive game and expect to win.
EDIT to include quote.
Do not change a game based on results from a tournament, most games of ns2 are not 6v6 or competitive and game should be built around the pub player. (More pub players = more money)
A thread discussing possible competitive rules for 6v6 would be more constructive. Alternatively create a competitive mod balanced for 6v6
It is a balance issue, and the balance applies to both public and competitive play. There is no distinction needed.
It is a balance issue, and the balance applies to both public and competitive play. There is no distinction needed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is not a pub issue, if it was 90% of pub games would see this as is most pubs are celerity-leap-cara not onos....
EDIT to include quote.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not saying they're equal. I'm saying that in the "common" marine/alien match where aliens have 3 RTs and marines 5+, it's pretty hard for marines to counter an onos effectively that early.
Obviosly you have more experience in comp. play, since I'm not on a comp. team though. But what I saw this weekend is marines consistently struggling to keep the onos blocked/away at 6:00 (even with a jetpack rush which was done in one game) when it's already out and poised to take down some forward phase gate, including easily winning the final game on the US tournament.
one thing that i find ridiculous about comm-dropped eggs is the speed at which they evolve, seems that you pop out near instantaneously whereas if you bought the lifeform you'd have to take 15-30s to evolve.
if, instead, comm dropped eggs had a 45s egg grow time time for fades and a 90s egg grow time for onos, on top of having the evolution happen at normal speed that would make it a very valid tradeoff - being able to replace lost lifeforms, at the cost of having less players on the field for a critical window where the opponent can capitalize.
this means that a 6m tres onos now would come out at ~ 8minutes instead, which would give marines time to scout it and counter it.
And the armory blocking would of been effective if while the onos was tied up fighting an armory marines were actually killing an RT or two. Instead of just turtling.
You can get away with turtling on veil, but not summit.
edit: Wheee: the comm dropped eggs do have an evolve time. It might actually be somewhere around 45 seconds too (for onos).
Yes, they did. But you can't have weapon/armor and jetpacks at 6:00, which is... kind of the problem :-) .
one thing that i find ridiculous about comm-dropped eggs is the speed at which they evolve, seems that you pop out near instantaneously whereas if you bought the lifeform you'd have to take 15-30s to evolve.
if, instead, comm dropped eggs had a 45s egg grow time time for fades and a 90s egg grow time for onos, on top of having the evolution happen at normal speed that would make it a very valid tradeoff - being able to replace lost lifeforms, at the cost of having less players on the field for a critical window where the opponent can capitalize.
this means that a 6m tres onos now would come out at ~ 8minutes instead, which would give marines time to scout it and counter it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is a build time for dropped eggs, but that time can be paid while the alien player is off doing other things. When the alien player actually jumps in it is near instant. Perhaps changing that would help a little bit, make the alien player still have to spend his time evolving inside the egg?