<!--quoteo(post=2055473:date=Jan 3 2013, 02:49 PM:name=Terranigma)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Terranigma @ Jan 3 2013, 02:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2055473"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Again: adding more in-game tooltips, advices, hints, etc. does <b>not</b> mean to dump down the game. There's no logical connection between the words <i>complex</i> and <i>complicated</i> in this sense. Though NS2 is without any doubt a complex game it does <b>not</b> mean that it has to be complicated to learn. There's a good reason why in the <i>good ol' days</i> there were printed manuals and why complex games like Empire:Total War have several in-game features, mechanisms, tooltips, tutorials, etc. which are means to help players learn the game.
NS2 is really in no position to frighten away new customers because they simply don't understand what they're supposed to do and I can understand anyone who buys a new game and is in no mood to sit down and learn for NS2. They wan't to relax. I can relax when I play Shogun2 because, even though this game is without any doubt more complex than NS2, it gives me a lot of feedback and explanations how to play it. If I'd had to watch videos on youtube, ask other players via forums and chat, I'd probably wouldn't play it. I mean, just adding in-game tooltips that tell you what each buildings does what be a great help. The less time you spend out-of-game and the more time you can stay in-game, the better and the more fun it is.
Again: <i>complex</i> and <i>complicated</i> are to different terms. Making a game more friendly for new players by adding more in-game help does not mean to dump it down!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I played NS1 when it was released and played the crap out of it. I learned as I went.
When NS2 was finally released, I spent some time over a couple of days reading the wiki, even though I was quite familiar with the game.
Why do the developers or any one else have to find ways to sneak in information about the game via constant tool tips like some parent trying to give their kids an aspirin in apple sauce? What is this aversion to reading or research? Why the need for constant hand holding and coddling?
I know the average gamer's penchant for tossing away the manual with the game box, heck I am just a guilty of it as anyone else. When a new player ignores the available information, who's fault is that?
Is the game a bit rough on newbies? Yea, probably. It isn't your average "Generic Military Shooter: Now With Brown textures and Bloom" which most gamers have cut their teeth on recently. It has consequences for your losses, concrete consequences with immediate results. Where has the personal responsibility the gamer has to learn? It just feels, to me, that people don't want to put the time on, or actually lose a game while they are learning. Could there be a better tutorial? Yes, but damn; plenty of people learned this game without all the hand holding before. Why can't they now? Please do not tell me it was because they "had to pay monies for this game". You had to buy HL before you could play NS1 so that doesn't wash. Maybe because it was a mod and not a stand alone, self installer. Maybe your average gamer of yore was simply smarter than the current crop? Maybe the "older games" like TF, CS, DoD, and NS that required you to pull files from different places and install them in a specific order scared away the more timid.
I just don't understand the need for the level of hand holding them people seem to need...
<!--quoteo(post=2055490:date=Jan 3 2013, 08:13 PM:name=MMZ_Torak)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MMZ_Torak @ Jan 3 2013, 08:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2055490"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why do the developers or any one else have to find ways to sneak in information about the game via constant tool tips like some parent trying to give their kids an aspirin in apple sauce? What is this aversion to reading or research? Why the need for constant hand holding and coddling?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because I have enough to read and do research about in my life so that I in fact don't want to study a game but want to play it. I enjoy digging into the mechanics of games but then again, I like it when I can do it in a learning-by-playing kind of way. Fact is though, that NS2 makes it pretty hard for new players because you either get told what the buildings are for or you will never find out in-game unless you start commaind yourself. Of course, you could browse the wiki but come on ... ... it's like you start playing a new RTS-game without any tooltips and get told "<i>Just find it out yourself!</i>". Of course you could do that - but unless you're a pretty lousy service provider you wouldn't do that. Of course you can construct an IKEA cupboard without any manual and of course you could play Empire:Total War without any kind of in-game help - but heck, why should you?
It is a no-brainer that, when you develop a game, you want people to be able to learn it and you want them to have a good time with it. It's in the interest of any game-developer that you don't only have to come up with a game that's fun to play but also have to think about means that the people understand how it's played without the need to study it like some kind of research work, browse wikis of whatsoever. I enjoyed playing games like Baldurs Gate2 when I was a child and I still enjoy digging into the mechanics of pen&paper-games, but - but! - I neither have the time nor don't want to invest the time to study a videogame. I want to start it, play it and start getting better at it without the need to frequently tab out of game to look things up.
<!--quoteo(post=2055490:date=Jan 3 2013, 08:13 PM:name=MMZ_Torak)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MMZ_Torak @ Jan 3 2013, 08:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2055490"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes, but damn; plenty of people learned this game without all the hand holding before. Why can't they now?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
See, I'm a prospective teacher and when there's something I've learned during my time at university it is that there's something called didactics. More important than what you want someone to learn is how you want him to learn it. In the old days of yore people might've been different - whether that might be true or not is meaningless 'cause we're talking about the people today. What you call "hand holding" I call a minimum sense of didatics, namely, that there's hardly any argument for helping someone to learn something the easy way. I just know to well that there's a tendency to yell at younger people stuff like "<i>Don't be such a pansy! As I was your age I could do it already!</i>" when you get older. I'd think that's somewhat arrogant. We're talking about games. Games are meant to be fun. When there's somehing that drags you frequently out-of-game - like looking things up at the wiki - that ain't fun and ain't part of the game.
So for what reason should you not include more tooltips which explain things aside from the generic "everything used to be much better in the old days and man were still real man, able to look things up". If you can help someone to have a good time without dumping the game down for anyone else, why shouldn't you do so? Adding a few more hints and explanations is hardly a bad thing. Heck, in the old time it was even okay to play an RTS-game where you had to select the "Move"-button every single time you want some unit to go from A to B (WarCraft1) and in terms of MMORPGs it was okay not to mark Quest-NPCs so players had to click at every single NPC to find new quests - yes, years ago that was okay. But things have changed and the bar was raised for good, I think. I think it's only in the interest of the dev's to include more hints and explanations - in-game! - as they want people to understand how their game's played, as it's worth to be played.
The time's they'ar a-changing. And that ain't a bad thing, I guess.
<!--quoteo(post=2055527:date=Jan 3 2013, 04:02 PM:name=Terranigma)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Terranigma @ Jan 3 2013, 04:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2055527"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Because I have enough to read and do research about in my life so that I in fact don't want to study a game but want to play it. I enjoy digging into the mechanics of games but then again, I like it when I can do it in a learning-by-playing kind of way. Fact is though, that NS2 makes it pretty hard for new players because you either get told what the buildings are for or you will never find out in-game unless you start commaind yourself. Of course, you could browse the wiki but come on ... ... it's like you start playing a new RTS-game without any tooltips and get told "<i>Just find it out yourself!</i>". Of course you could do that - but unless you're a pretty lousy service provider you wouldn't do that. Of course you can construct an IKEA cupboard without any manual and of course you could play Empire:Total War without any kind of in-game help - but heck, why should you?
It is a no-brainer that, when you develop a game, you want people to be able to learn it and you want them to have a good time with it. It's in the interest of any game-developer that you don't only have to come up with a game that's fun to play but also have to think about means that the people understand how it's played without the need to study it like some kind of research work, browse wikis of whatsoever. I enjoyed playing games like Baldurs Gate2 when I was a child and I still enjoy digging into the mechanics of pen&paper-games, but - but! - I neither have the time nor don't want to invest the time to study a videogame. I want to start it, play it and start getting better at it without the need to frequently tab out of game to look things up.
See, I'm a prospective teacher and when there's something I've learned during my time at university it is that there's something called didactics. More important than what you want someone to learn is how you want him to learn it. In the old days of yore people might've been different - whether that might be true or not is meaningless 'cause we're talking about the people today. What you call "hand holding" I call a minimum sense of didatics, namely, that there's hardly any argument for helping someone to learn something the easy way. I just know to well that there's a tendency to yell at younger people stuff like "<i>Don't be such a pansy! As I was your age I could do it already!</i>" when you get older. I'd think that's somewhat arrogant. We're talking about games. Games are meant to be fun. When there's somehing that drags you frequently out-of-game - like looking things up at the wiki - that ain't fun and ain't part of the game.
So for what reason should you not include more tooltips which explain things aside from the generic "everything used to be much better in the old days and man were still real man, able to look things up". If you can help someone to have a good time without dumping the game down for anyone else, why shouldn't you do so? Adding a few more hints and explanations is hardly a bad thing. Heck, in the old time it was even okay to play an RTS-game where you had to select the "Move"-button every single time you want some unit to go from A to B (WarCraft1) and in terms of MMORPGs it was okay not to mark Quest-NPCs so players had to click at every single NPC to find new quests - yes, years ago that was okay. But things have changed and the bar was raised for good, I think. I think it's only in the interest of the dev's to include more hints and explanations - in-game! - as they want people to understand how their game's played, as it's worth to be played.
The time's they'ar a-changing. And that ain't a bad thing, I guess.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I fully comprehend what you are saying. I also have worked in the teaching field.
However, too much is spoon fed to people these days. Self reliance is a thing of the past. Handing everything to people on a plate leads to poorer problem solving and critical thinking. If every step of the way, every answer is handed to you, what happens when you have to think for yourself? What happens is skilled players get called hackers, because the skills they learned weren't hand fed to them from a pop-up (You have spawned as a marine, that big thing on your body that is in contact with the floor, that is a foot. You have two of them, put them one in front of the other (only move one foot at a time) to get places!) they learned them from watching better players, and getting their asses handed to them by people that used them.
I used to play in a league for a TF clone 'back in the day' (Weapons Factory). My buddies and I thought we were good enough to play in this league because we would own up pub games (stop laughing, we learned the hard way lol). We even managed to get a plum for our first match and won. We then proceeded to go on a 40 something game losing streak. The game would start and almost as soon as our offense left our flag room the other team was "in our base, killin our doods". Some of my friends were screaming 'HAX!' the reality was we had just seen 'professional' gamers using bunny hopping to it's best advantage.
Long story short, we learned how to bhop, got a bit better. Won more games, and had fun. Nothing worthwhile comes easy, you get out of something what you put in. When you put in nothing, you care an equal amount about it.
Again, I think the tutorial is a bit lacking. TF2 took ages to get a tutorial in game. It will get better.
But for now, jump in a game, and learn by taking your lumps. This is a game after all, there is no consequence for losing. You learn significantly more from failure than you do from success.
<!--quoteo(post=2055430:date=Jan 3 2013, 03:28 PM:name=Amb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Amb @ Jan 3 2013, 03:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2055430"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->* don't bother to watch the tutorials<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->You can't be serious. When was the last time you EVER read a manual or watched tutorials before playing a game. No one does that. If this game had a training sim and/or single player, then you would have a point. However, it's totally unrealistic to expect people to watch hours of youtube videos as a means to learn a game - assuming they could learn anything at all from it.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->* join non-rookie servers<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->So shall we put 'rookie unfriendly' on all the other servers to let these people know they'll be treated like crap if they join? At least be fair and let them know what kind of abuse they should expect.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->* jump in cc/hive to play comm and have no idea wtf is going on<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->On a rookie server a new comm will NEVER know what is going on since there is no replacement for an active game. They have to learn somehow.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->* refuse to use a mic<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->And what about people who have kids and can't talk at a late hour? Again, so long as they can communicate with text and waypoints, then let them play.
These aren't scrims these people are joining. These are just pub matches.
Something I noticed is that NS2 forums seems a lot more elitist and negative than people actually in game. Browsing through UWE forums, you'd think this is like a cult of super elite skilled players or something, whereas in game there are actually people who try to help out. Yea, you still have those teamstacking dudes spamming trololo and l2p from time to time, but at least it's not like the forums where 90% of the response you get is get better. Like seriously, what does get better even have to do with performance anyways?
please do NOT change any of the key elements of the game just to make it 'friendlier for newbees'. yes the NS2 community should grow but not by the price of giving up the gameplay we love so much. we already did that by inventing combat mode a few years ago... The system we have right now keeps away potential idiots which you can see in other games like CS. Anybody who is new and at least tries to watch tutorials, play a tutorial or asks players how everything works, has earned to stay in the game from my point of view.
the reason behind that is that those players who just want to play 'for fun' in a way that they simply do not care about their teammates and what is happening around them, will easily get bored because there's no way that they can do anything alone. those players are very likely to quit playing. don't get me wrong. I really like to help new players where ever I can but I do not support those who join a game just to 'do stuff' and get some entertainment like it is in CS (lolz hs that n00b again roflmao...my team sucks..)
<!--quoteo(post=2055581:date=Jan 3 2013, 05:39 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Jan 3 2013, 05:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2055581"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You can't be serious. When was the last time you EVER read a manual or watched tutorials before playing a game. No one does that. If this game had a training sim and/or single player, then you would have a point. However, it's totally unrealistic to expect people to watch hours of youtube videos as a means to learn a game - assuming they could learn anything at all from it.
<!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro--><b>***The game really isn't that difficult to learn. It's not DCS Warthog or ARMA. If someone can't play for an hour or two and get the gist of what's going they have a learning disability. </b> <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->So shall we put 'rookie unfriendly' on all the other servers to let these people know they'll be treated like crap if they join? At least be fair and let them know what kind of abuse they should expect.
<!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro--><b>***Expect abuse and ######s in any game on any server. It's not unique to NS2. </b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> On a rookie server a new comm will NEVER know what is going on since there is no replacement for an active game. They have to learn somehow.
<!--coloro:#00FFFF--><span style="color:#00FFFF"><!--/coloro--><b>***I learned by playing as infantry and watching other commanders. It's possible to learn using your powers of observation. No video or tutorial can teach you to command properly anyway. </b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> And what about people who have kids and can't talk at a late hour? Again, so long as they can communicate with text and waypoints, then let them play.
<!--coloro:#DDA0DD--><span style="color:#DDA0DD"><!--/coloro--><b>***Don't jump in the comm chair with no idea what to do and no microphone with the expectation you won't be booted. </b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Surprisingly enough, someone can learn the game without having a bottle or pacifier held to their mouth the entire time.
<!--quoteo(post=2055605:date=Jan 3 2013, 08:11 PM:name=SixtyWattMan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SixtyWattMan @ Jan 3 2013, 08:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2055605"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Surprisingly enough, someone can learn the game without having a bottle or pacifier held to their mouth the entire time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Yes, let all rookies bow down to your awesomeness, since if you say that the game is not difficult to learn, then it must be true.
<!--quoteo(post=2055606:date=Jan 3 2013, 06:13 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Jan 3 2013, 06:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2055606"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes, let all rookies bow down to your awesomeness, since if you say that the game is not difficult to learn, then it must be true.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm glad we've come to an understanding. Apology accepted.
It will only last a day and 'it' will be back, commenting in the usual way of those suspects who only remember NS1 and don't actually play the game NS2.
Heh, it's kind of like making an account at valve to rage about how much I dislike CS:S, they must wonder why I don't go and find something in life I actually *like* lol.
If a 2 hour tutorial taught me everything about a game, I wouldn't play that game!
Hmm. We definitely take this problem seriously, but I'm not sure what to do about it.
I think we have a hit-reg problem, but I definitely am trying to figure out if one side is easier to play or not. I always thought aliens were harder to learn than marine, but the skill-curve could steep in the beginning and then level off for aliens (that's my current hunch), while marines is smoother but takes longer to get good at.
Another problem my be celerity and how hard it is to hit anything that's moving so quickly. I tried to address this in the beta by having celerity only work outside of combat (ie, have it slowly increase and let you get between rooms quickly, but stop working once you take damage or attack). Most people didn't seem to like that concept though, so it was changed. Maybe it's a culprit now?
<!--quoteo(post=2055527:date=Jan 3 2013, 04:02 PM:name=Terranigma)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Terranigma @ Jan 3 2013, 04:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2055527"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The time's they'ar a-changing. And that ain't a bad thing, I guess.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I disagree... <a href="http://youtu.be/W1ZtBCpo0eU" target="_blank">http://youtu.be/W1ZtBCpo0eU</a>
<!--quoteo(post=2055689:date=Jan 3 2013, 09:11 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Jan 3 2013, 09:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2055689"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Another problem my be celerity and how hard it is to hit anything that's moving so quickly. I tried to address this in the beta by having celerity only work outside of combat (ie, have it slowly increase and let you get between rooms quickly, but stop working once you take damage or attack). Most people didn't seem to like that concept though, so it was changed. Maybe it's a culprit now?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not sure what you mean, isn't that how it works right now? I think the issue with that approach is that celerity skulks have usually closed the distance by the time they get shot. So the fact that they slow down afterwards is small comfort to the marines.
<!--quoteo(post=2055689:date=Jan 4 2013, 03:11 AM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Jan 4 2013, 03:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2055689"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hmm. We definitely take this problem seriously, but I'm not sure what to do about it.
I think we have a hit-reg problem, but I definitely am trying to figure out if one side is easier to play or not. I always thought aliens were harder to learn than marine, but the skill-curve could steep in the beginning and then level off for aliens (that's my current hunch), while marines is smoother but takes longer to get good at.
Another problem my be celerity and how hard it is to hit anything that's moving so quickly. I tried to address this in the beta by having celerity only work outside of combat (ie, have it slowly increase and let you get between rooms quickly, but stop working once you take damage or attack). Most people didn't seem to like that concept though, so it was changed. Maybe it's a culprit now?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
your right on the skill curves. Aliens suffer a bit because the fade and lerk require alot of skill, if you could make those classes more accessible to new players by lowering the skill floor (but not affecting the skill ceiling which vets are happy with atm), perhaps the 'aliens are hard' argument would go away.
As for marines, i think its more a case of new players not knowing what to do, at the moment they rely on good commanders with mic's that tell them where and what they should be doing. There needs to be better ways of displaying information to increase new palyers situational awareness. Off the top of my head ... res towers are shown under your personal res in the form of white dots ... how is a new player suppose to know this ? making those dots into icons of res towers would make more sense.
As for celerity
i would argue to remove it from the game and replace it with something else. Its impossible to balance. The ONOS is a little too good with celerity (it has charge too) the lerk seems a bit too slow without celerity but then a bit too fast with celerity. Fades dont benefit that much from celerity and same goes for gorges. Skulks benefit the most from celerity and without it i think high level play will suffer. Probably the worst thing about celerity is the fact that when you are hit you lose the upgrades effects for 2 or 3 seconds.
If skulks had better skilled based movement, i dont think anyone would miss having celerity removed from the game. So yeah, replace celerity with something else and then all lifeform speeds will be consistant and much easier to balance.
Its generally easy to shoot slower moving targets, but its also easier to shoot consistent targets. Skulks currently dont move ridiculously fast, but move very erratically. Wallhop is really what makes that as apparent, also wall walking rotation and animations are wierd at times. Celerity slowing down in combat (that is how it still works, atleast when you take/deal damage) can actually make it worse also, as your starting to shoot the skulk moving fast, then suddenly he looses a bunch of speed and you start missing again.
Quick thought I just had...What about taking the retarded bots idea 1 step further and introducing a simulated and interactive match? Not full speed of course but give the player objectives and kind of make the AI "hold" their advancement untill the objective is completed.
Simple objectives like "kill the marines in repair so your team can try to expand", then once thats done a message pops up saying "kill the phase gate in repair since that is the most immediate threat to you and have 1 or 2 bots pop out and run around trying not very hard to kill you.
This might be simply too big of a project but it would provide a way to learn the games general flow of events and allow the player to see things though rather then dieing every 2 seconds the second they see a marine.
<!--quoteo(post=2055689:date=Jan 3 2013, 10:11 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Jan 3 2013, 10:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2055689"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hmm. We definitely take this problem seriously, but I'm not sure what to do about it.
I think we have a hit-reg problem, but I definitely am trying to figure out if one side is easier to play or not. I always thought aliens were harder to learn than marine, but the skill-curve could steep in the beginning and then level off for aliens (that's my current hunch), while marines is smoother but takes longer to get good at.
Another problem my be celerity and how hard it is to hit anything that's moving so quickly. I tried to address this in the beta by having celerity only work outside of combat (ie, have it slowly increase and let you get between rooms quickly, but stop working once you take damage or attack). Most people didn't seem to like that concept though, so it was changed. Maybe it's a culprit now?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Seriously, we have lived through NS1, and we should know the fundamental issues by now. Whether it is marine or aliens, as soon as we enter a server, we are trying to figure out where we should be and what we should be doing.
What can get us integrated in the game fast without it looking like a giant leg cast? NS1 Hive sight was a great way to communicate where stuff was happening without opening a huge map during game play. As marines, I don't really care to see something that resembles a glowing maraschino cherry when I am trying to find out where the rest of my team is going for an attack.
Maybe if you could tag a fellow marine as a "squad mate" so that whenever you tapped a map key[or equivalent], you could be directed to their direction as if they motion tracking was on.
Really, I think if newer players knew what they had to do upon joining a game, they wouldn't be guessing- that and if they knew how to properly set their fov+resolution+mouse sensitivity, they would perform better.
-afterthought- for many, the learning experience is still a very selfish process in that you are focused on yourself, and perhaps a newer player's confidence is lacking and reinforces this. So anything that invokes confidence during the learning phase will help bring players out and work as a team
I haven't read most of these posts, but most players really do need how to "learn to play."
I think the real culprit is the lack of any kind of decent education system. I'm not talking about the basics, like "this is a shotgun" or "here is a skulk."
I'm talking about how a game typically flows. Opportunities that present themselves in games and how to capitalize on them. For example, I almost never see a marine player suicide to kill an upgrade chamber (spur, veil, shell) without my direct communication to do so. These upgrade chambers are <i>ridiculously</i> expensive for aliens to replace and <i>very easy</i> for a two man marine team (sometimes one depending on the structure) to kill. These chambers should always be a target, but rarely are.
There are many more examples that I can come up with. I'd like to see commanders have more options to communicate with their players outside of voice comms. There's a recent Idea & Suggestions thread that suggest <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=126699" target="_blank">mandatory squad placement for all marines.</a> On top of that, I'd like to see a constant "Your sqaud orders here" type text always on the marine HUD.
If the game isn't going to teach people how to play properly (which would be difficult to do), it should at least provide quite a bit of help/tools so that players and teach other players.
And then Lord God from Haven spoke, And unto thou I shall grant a numerousness of serves Such that if thy ass is being rolled on one thou may easily switchest to another And the people cheered and it was good
Honestly tho rolls will happen noob friendly hud and tutorials or no. The best thing to do is just switch to another server, theres usually plenty.
JektJoin Date: 2012-02-05Member: 143714Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Its generally easy to shoot slower moving targets, but its also easier to shoot consistent targets. Skulks currently dont move ridiculously fast, but move very erratically. Wallhop is really what makes that as apparent, also wall walking rotation and animations are wierd at times. Celerity slowing down in combat (that is how it still works, atleast when you take/deal damage) can actually make it worse also, as your starting to shoot the skulk moving fast, then suddenly he looses a bunch of speed and you start missing again.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pretty much this. And celerity doesn't do anything in combat. That was never changed. Jesus.
<!--quoteo(post=2055689:date=Jan 4 2013, 01:11 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Jan 4 2013, 01:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2055689"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hmm. We definitely take this problem seriously, but I'm not sure what to do about it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Charlie, why did you even reply to this thread? Because some f*****g newbs whinged and you were afraid of losing sales? As for the steep learning curve, are you honestly buying that BS? Do people honestly believe this game is harder to learn than games like Starcraft, Supreme Commander and Company of Heroes? People who play those games would take one look @ NS2 and say "This is baby RTS". The people who are whinging are the same old Call of Duty scrubs who are accustomed to the following:
spawn -> run out -> kill -> get killed -> respawn -> rinse and repeat x 50 -> unlock guns -> spend another $60 on a new COD in 12 month
Seriously people, stop giving those losers anymore attentions than they deserve. We got their $10 from the x-mas sale and they've served their purpose: UWE got the fund they need to keep developing NS2. So that's that. Let them play NS2 for a few weeks and make a couple of whinges on the forum and they'll go back to Black Ops II before you know it.
<!--quoteo(post=2053713:date=Dec 31 2012, 07:45 AM:name=joederp)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (joederp @ Dec 31 2012, 07:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053713"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Name one other game in the world that you can buy today and be proficient at multiplayer.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I can name a bunch. Modern Warfare 2 Modern Warfare 3 Black Ops Black Ops 2 Halo: Reach
<!--quoteo(post=2055794:date=Jan 4 2013, 05:29 PM:name=Cregore)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cregore @ Jan 4 2013, 05:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2055794"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I can name a bunch. Modern Warfare 2 Modern Warfare 3 Black Ops Black Ops 2 Halo: Reach<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yeah, stay in those games, don't come to NS please. Thank you.
<!--quoteo(post=2055778:date=Jan 4 2013, 01:05 AM:name=Amb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Amb @ Jan 4 2013, 01:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2055778"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Charlie, why did you even reply to this thread? Because some f*****g newbs whinged and you were afraid of losing sales? As for the steep learning curve, are you honestly buying that BS? Do people honestly believe this game is harder to learn than games like Starcraft, Supreme Commander and Company of Heroes? People who play those games would take one look @ NS2 and say "This is baby RTS". The people who are whinging are the same old Call of Duty scrubs who are accustomed to the following:
spawn -> run out -> kill -> get killed -> respawn -> rinse and repeat x 50 -> unlock guns -> spend another $60 on a new COD in 12 month
Seriously people, stop giving those losers anymore attentions than they deserve. We got their $10 from the x-mas sale and they've served their purpose: UWE got the fund they need to keep developing NS2. So that's that. Let them play NS2 for a few weeks and make a couple of whinges on the forum and they'll go back to Black Ops II before you know it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The hell is your problem? You know the difference between this game and Starcraft? You actually get to play people of your relative skill level in Starcraft thanks to the different leagues based on your level of skill. You join a random server in NS2 and hope there aren't any people rolling face.
You know why UWE should give a damn? If they want to maintain a positive reputation to the gaming community and have people BUY their next game, then they better damn well address the multitude of problems present in NS2. You CANNOT have a multiplayer-only game and have the multiplayer experience suck for people who somehow still need to "learn to play." Hell the multiplayer experience just sucks unless you are running some stupidly OC'd computer.
UWE is nowhere near popular enough to not give a damn about "those losers" and ignore their plight. Though it would be interesting to see where UWE will be years down the road if they only cater to the hardcore elitist ###### crowd.
<!--quoteo(post=2055778:date=Jan 3 2013, 10:05 PM:name=Amb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Amb @ Jan 3 2013, 10:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2055778"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Charlie, why did you even reply to this thread? Because some f*****g newbs whinged and you were afraid of losing sales? As for the steep learning curve, are you honestly buying that BS? Do people honestly believe this game is harder to learn than games like Starcraft, Supreme Commander and Company of Heroes? People who play those games would take one look @ NS2 and say "This is baby RTS". The people who are whinging are the same old Call of Duty scrubs who are accustomed to the following:
spawn -> run out -> kill -> get killed -> respawn -> rinse and repeat x 50 -> unlock guns -> spend another $60 on a new COD in 12 month
Seriously people, stop giving those losers anymore attentions than they deserve. We got their $10 from the x-mas sale and they've served their purpose: UWE got the fund they need to keep developing NS2. So that's that. Let them play NS2 for a few weeks and make a couple of whinges on the forum and they'll go back to Black Ops II before you know it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Can't tell if troll or overzealous fanboy. Possibly both.
Also, yes, this game actually is harder to learn than Starcraft 2 and Company of Heroes. Starcraft 2 has a singleplayer (of varying difficulty) explaining most units in the game. The in-game menu has a help and tech-tree diagrams. In addition, you can play against bots to improve your commanding skill. Once done, you can play co-op with other players against bots once you're ready for the next level (also of varying difficulty tailored to your level). FINALLY, once you're ready for your first match, it gives you 5 random matches before setting you in a league appropriate for your skill. SC2 is easier to learn but harder to master. SC2's teaching mechanics (which are appropriate for basically all gamers) are something NS2 should aspire to.
Also, you address Flayra like he's someone above everyone (when really he's probably just a nice guy with a passion for gaming and NS) yet you also include censored swear words and insult the very community he's trying to grow and nurture. That confuses me.\
@Flayra: The Hit-registation issue is really frustrating as it's something as a player you can't tell if it's due to the alien's skill, your bad aim, or hit-reg that caused your death. I think we can all agree fixing the hit-reg would put a good amount of water on frustration and anger in NS.
The AlgerianJoin Date: 2012-12-22Member: 175962Members
<!--quoteo(post=2054149:date=Jan 1 2013, 02:48 PM:name=Viajero)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Viajero @ Jan 1 2013, 02:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2054149"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Lol, yes. Because this will help a lot in growing the player base or attract new players. I am sure Devs will be delighted to follow your reasoning.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't know if it's any of the devs concern, sure as hell isn't mine. If some people can't keep up, they should stick with CoD or any of its hundred clones out there instead of ruining a perfectly good game so it can fit their lack of abilities.
<!--quoteo(post=2055854:date=Jan 4 2013, 11:18 AM:name=The Algerian)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The Algerian @ Jan 4 2013, 11:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2055854"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Don't know if it's any of the devs concern, sure as hell isn't mine. If some people can't keep up, they should stick with CoD or any of its hundred clones out there instead of ruining a perfectly good game so it can fit their lack of abilities.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, a few posts up a dev just suggested it is actually their concern.
How seriously they will be acting on this I cant tell. But his comment about celerity suggests to me they are unfortunately nowhere near to hitting the nail on the head... The issue here is about the lack of friendly tools to introduce the game to noobs compounded with the obvious lack of balance in pub play skewed against the more noob friendly marines. Unless both aspects are addressed new players will most likely keep on complaining which suggests the player base wont grow much. Just a wild guess though, not fact based.
Now some of you may not give a damn about new players but I do. I just joined this coimmunity but like this game a lot; and the bigger the player base the better for the future of this game me thinks. I only hope devs agree with that, that is all.
<!--quoteo(post=2055778:date=Jan 4 2013, 07:05 AM:name=Amb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Amb @ Jan 4 2013, 07:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2055778"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->[...] The people who are whinging are the same old Call of Duty scrubs who are accustomed to the following:
spawn -> run out -> kill -> get killed -> respawn -> rinse and repeat x 50 -> unlock guns -> spend another $60 on a new COD in 12 month[...]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
THANK YOU! finally someone has the guts to say the truth! If anybody really thinks that games like CoD are about teamplay....yeah...you're lying to yourself pretty badly... Nobody is really working together unless they're in a clan or playing with a buddy.
Now back to NS2 Be honest guys..how long did it take you to learn the basics of NS1? A day? two? Maybe up to a week (depending on how much time you've spent in total on playing). The people we're talking about here are those who expect a game to be like this:
1) change graphics 2) join game 3) switch brain off 4) find out how many 4w3s0me weapons are in this game 5) find out what to kill 6) repeating that for x-time until it becomes boring 7) quit game
They expect a game to be that simple that they only have to start it and immediately will be able to know what to do and how everything works. Nothing new in life works like this!
Those players who are really interested in a game are patient and they will stay to become better. Communication is a big part of NS, so there's always somebody you can talk to and ask.
<!--quoteo(post=2055867:date=Jan 4 2013, 09:43 PM:name=Lt.Realness)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lt.Realness @ Jan 4 2013, 09:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2055867"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->THANK YOU! finally someone has the guts to say the truth! If anybody really thinks that games like CoD are about teamplay....yeah...you're lying to yourself pretty badly... Nobody is really working together unless they're in a clan or playing with a buddy.
Now back to NS2 Be honest guys..how long did it take you to learn the basics of NS1? A day? two? Maybe up to a week (depending on how much time you've spent in total on playing). The people we're talking about here are those who expect a game to be like this:
1) change graphics 2) join game 3) switch brain off 4) find out how many 4w3s0me weapons are in this game 5) find out what to kill 6) repeating that for x-time until it becomes boring 7) quit game
They expect a game to be that simple that they only have to start it and immediately will be able to know what to do and how everything works. Nothing new in life works like this!
Those players who are really interested in a game are patient and they will stay to become better. Communication is a big part of NS, so there's always somebody you can talk to and ask.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Basically these scrubs thought NS2 was Call of Duty with aliens. Seriously, GTFO!? I can't believe Charlie is actually planning to "address this issue". What's your plan, bud? Make combat the de facto mode again like you guys did to NS1?
<!--quoteo(post=2055689:date=Jan 3 2013, 09:11 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Jan 3 2013, 09:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2055689"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hmm. We definitely take this problem seriously, but I'm not sure what to do about it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If I Ruled The World...
I would focus on the Hit Reg problem, and maybe some simple tutorial like TF2 has. I would not even touch balance until the hit reg was solved as it could seriously mask or impersonate the real problem.
After that and the (lets be honest) percentage of people that are not interested in the core game play leave, focus on balance. Allow some time for the people that "just want to shoot aliens" and treat this as some glorified DM game to get bored and leave; it may take a month for them to go. Trying to get people not interested in teamwork, not interested in doing more than shooting aliens, to play 'right' is like herding cats. They aren't interested in the core game play, they will skew any metric used to gauge balance.
Comments
NS2 is really in no position to frighten away new customers because they simply don't understand what they're supposed to do and I can understand anyone who buys a new game and is in no mood to sit down and learn for NS2. They wan't to relax. I can relax when I play Shogun2 because, even though this game is without any doubt more complex than NS2, it gives me a lot of feedback and explanations how to play it. If I'd had to watch videos on youtube, ask other players via forums and chat, I'd probably wouldn't play it. I mean, just adding in-game tooltips that tell you what each buildings does what be a great help. The less time you spend out-of-game and the more time you can stay in-game, the better and the more fun it is.
Again: <i>complex</i> and <i>complicated</i> are to different terms. Making a game more friendly for new players by adding more in-game help does not mean to dump it down!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I played NS1 when it was released and played the crap out of it. I learned as I went.
When NS2 was finally released, I spent some time over a couple of days reading the wiki, even though I was quite familiar with the game.
Why do the developers or any one else have to find ways to sneak in information about the game via constant tool tips like some parent trying to give their kids an aspirin in apple sauce? What is this aversion to reading or research? Why the need for constant hand holding and coddling?
I know the average gamer's penchant for tossing away the manual with the game box, heck I am just a guilty of it as anyone else. When a new player ignores the available information, who's fault is that?
Is the game a bit rough on newbies? Yea, probably. It isn't your average "Generic Military Shooter: Now With Brown textures and Bloom" which most gamers have cut their teeth on recently. It has consequences for your losses, concrete consequences with immediate results. Where has the personal responsibility the gamer has to learn? It just feels, to me, that people don't want to put the time on, or actually lose a game while they are learning. Could there be a better tutorial? Yes, but damn; plenty of people learned this game without all the hand holding before. Why can't they now? Please do not tell me it was because they "had to pay monies for this game". You had to buy HL before you could play NS1 so that doesn't wash. Maybe because it was a mod and not a stand alone, self installer. Maybe your average gamer of yore was simply smarter than the current crop? Maybe the "older games" like TF, CS, DoD, and NS that required you to pull files from different places and install them in a specific order scared away the more timid.
I just don't understand the need for the level of hand holding them people seem to need...
Because I have enough to read and do research about in my life so that I in fact don't want to study a game but want to play it. I enjoy digging into the mechanics of games but then again, I like it when I can do it in a learning-by-playing kind of way. Fact is though, that NS2 makes it pretty hard for new players because you either get told what the buildings are for or you will never find out in-game unless you start commaind yourself. Of course, you could browse the wiki but come on ... ... it's like you start playing a new RTS-game without any tooltips and get told "<i>Just find it out yourself!</i>". Of course you could do that - but unless you're a pretty lousy service provider you wouldn't do that. Of course you can construct an IKEA cupboard without any manual and of course you could play Empire:Total War without any kind of in-game help - but heck, why should you?
It is a no-brainer that, when you develop a game, you want people to be able to learn it and you want them to have a good time with it. It's in the interest of any game-developer that you don't only have to come up with a game that's fun to play but also have to think about means that the people understand how it's played without the need to study it like some kind of research work, browse wikis of whatsoever. I enjoyed playing games like Baldurs Gate2 when I was a child and I still enjoy digging into the mechanics of pen&paper-games, but - but! - I neither have the time nor don't want to invest the time to study a videogame. I want to start it, play it and start getting better at it without the need to frequently tab out of game to look things up.
<!--quoteo(post=2055490:date=Jan 3 2013, 08:13 PM:name=MMZ_Torak)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MMZ_Torak @ Jan 3 2013, 08:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2055490"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes, but damn; plenty of people learned this game without all the hand holding before. Why can't they now?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
See, I'm a prospective teacher and when there's something I've learned during my time at university it is that there's something called didactics. More important than what you want someone to learn is how you want him to learn it. In the old days of yore people might've been different - whether that might be true or not is meaningless 'cause we're talking about the people today. What you call "hand holding" I call a minimum sense of didatics, namely, that there's hardly any argument for helping someone to learn something the easy way. I just know to well that there's a tendency to yell at younger people stuff like "<i>Don't be such a pansy! As I was your age I could do it already!</i>" when you get older. I'd think that's somewhat arrogant. We're talking about games. Games are meant to be fun. When there's somehing that drags you frequently out-of-game - like looking things up at the wiki - that ain't fun and ain't part of the game.
So for what reason should you not include more tooltips which explain things aside from the generic "everything used to be much better in the old days and man were still real man, able to look things up". If you can help someone to have a good time without dumping the game down for anyone else, why shouldn't you do so? Adding a few more hints and explanations is hardly a bad thing. Heck, in the old time it was even okay to play an RTS-game where you had to select the "Move"-button every single time you want some unit to go from A to B (WarCraft1) and in terms of MMORPGs it was okay not to mark Quest-NPCs so players had to click at every single NPC to find new quests - yes, years ago that was okay. But things have changed and the bar was raised for good, I think. I think it's only in the interest of the dev's to include more hints and explanations - in-game! - as they want people to understand how their game's played, as it's worth to be played.
The time's they'ar a-changing. And that ain't a bad thing, I guess.
It is a no-brainer that, when you develop a game, you want people to be able to learn it and you want them to have a good time with it. It's in the interest of any game-developer that you don't only have to come up with a game that's fun to play but also have to think about means that the people understand how it's played without the need to study it like some kind of research work, browse wikis of whatsoever. I enjoyed playing games like Baldurs Gate2 when I was a child and I still enjoy digging into the mechanics of pen&paper-games, but - but! - I neither have the time nor don't want to invest the time to study a videogame. I want to start it, play it and start getting better at it without the need to frequently tab out of game to look things up.
See, I'm a prospective teacher and when there's something I've learned during my time at university it is that there's something called didactics. More important than what you want someone to learn is how you want him to learn it. In the old days of yore people might've been different - whether that might be true or not is meaningless 'cause we're talking about the people today. What you call "hand holding" I call a minimum sense of didatics, namely, that there's hardly any argument for helping someone to learn something the easy way. I just know to well that there's a tendency to yell at younger people stuff like "<i>Don't be such a pansy! As I was your age I could do it already!</i>" when you get older. I'd think that's somewhat arrogant. We're talking about games. Games are meant to be fun. When there's somehing that drags you frequently out-of-game - like looking things up at the wiki - that ain't fun and ain't part of the game.
So for what reason should you not include more tooltips which explain things aside from the generic "everything used to be much better in the old days and man were still real man, able to look things up". If you can help someone to have a good time without dumping the game down for anyone else, why shouldn't you do so? Adding a few more hints and explanations is hardly a bad thing. Heck, in the old time it was even okay to play an RTS-game where you had to select the "Move"-button every single time you want some unit to go from A to B (WarCraft1) and in terms of MMORPGs it was okay not to mark Quest-NPCs so players had to click at every single NPC to find new quests - yes, years ago that was okay. But things have changed and the bar was raised for good, I think. I think it's only in the interest of the dev's to include more hints and explanations - in-game! - as they want people to understand how their game's played, as it's worth to be played.
The time's they'ar a-changing. And that ain't a bad thing, I guess.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I fully comprehend what you are saying. I also have worked in the teaching field.
However, too much is spoon fed to people these days. Self reliance is a thing of the past. Handing everything to people on a plate leads to poorer problem solving and critical thinking. If every step of the way, every answer is handed to you, what happens when you have to think for yourself? What happens is skilled players get called hackers, because the skills they learned weren't hand fed to them from a pop-up (You have spawned as a marine, that big thing on your body that is in contact with the floor, that is a foot. You have two of them, put them one in front of the other (only move one foot at a time) to get places!) they learned them from watching better players, and getting their asses handed to them by people that used them.
I used to play in a league for a TF clone 'back in the day' (Weapons Factory). My buddies and I thought we were good enough to play in this league because we would own up pub games (stop laughing, we learned the hard way lol). We even managed to get a plum for our first match and won. We then proceeded to go on a 40 something game losing streak. The game would start and almost as soon as our offense left our flag room the other team was "in our base, killin our doods". Some of my friends were screaming 'HAX!' the reality was we had just seen 'professional' gamers using bunny hopping to it's best advantage.
Long story short, we learned how to bhop, got a bit better. Won more games, and had fun. Nothing worthwhile comes easy, you get out of something what you put in. When you put in nothing, you care an equal amount about it.
Again, I think the tutorial is a bit lacking. TF2 took ages to get a tutorial in game. It will get better.
But for now, jump in a game, and learn by taking your lumps. This is a game after all, there is no consequence for losing. You learn significantly more from failure than you do from success.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->* join non-rookie servers<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->So shall we put 'rookie unfriendly' on all the other servers to let these people know they'll be treated like crap if they join? At least be fair and let them know what kind of abuse they should expect.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->* jump in cc/hive to play comm and have no idea wtf is going on<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->On a rookie server a new comm will NEVER know what is going on since there is no replacement for an active game. They have to learn somehow.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->* refuse to use a mic<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->And what about people who have kids and can't talk at a late hour? Again, so long as they can communicate with text and waypoints, then let them play.
These aren't scrims these people are joining. These are just pub matches.
The system we have right now keeps away potential idiots which you can see in other games like CS. Anybody who is new and at least tries to watch tutorials, play a tutorial or asks players how everything works, has earned to stay in the game from my point of view.
the reason behind that is that those players who just want to play 'for fun' in a way that they simply do not care about their teammates and what is happening around them, will easily get bored because there's no way that they can do anything alone.
those players are very likely to quit playing. don't get me wrong. I really like to help new players where ever I can but I do not support those who join a game just to 'do stuff' and get some entertainment like it is in CS (lolz hs that n00b again roflmao...my team sucks..)
<!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro--><b>***The game really isn't that difficult to learn. It's not DCS Warthog or ARMA. If someone can't play for an hour or two and get the gist of what's going they have a learning disability.
</b>
<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->So shall we put 'rookie unfriendly' on all the other servers to let these people know they'll be treated like crap if they join? At least be fair and let them know what kind of abuse they should expect.
<!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro--><b>***Expect abuse and ######s in any game on any server. It's not unique to NS2.
</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
On a rookie server a new comm will NEVER know what is going on since there is no replacement for an active game. They have to learn somehow.
<!--coloro:#00FFFF--><span style="color:#00FFFF"><!--/coloro--><b>***I learned by playing as infantry and watching other commanders. It's possible to learn using your powers of observation. No video or tutorial can teach you to command properly anyway.
</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
And what about people who have kids and can't talk at a late hour? Again, so long as they can communicate with text and waypoints, then let them play.
<!--coloro:#DDA0DD--><span style="color:#DDA0DD"><!--/coloro--><b>***Don't jump in the comm chair with no idea what to do and no microphone with the expectation you won't be booted.
</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Surprisingly enough, someone can learn the game without having a bottle or pacifier held to their mouth the entire time.
I'm glad we've come to an understanding. Apology accepted.
Heh, it's kind of like making an account at valve to rage about how much I dislike CS:S, they must wonder why I don't go and find something in life I actually *like* lol.
If a 2 hour tutorial taught me everything about a game, I wouldn't play that game!
I think we have a hit-reg problem, but I definitely am trying to figure out if one side is easier to play or not. I always thought aliens were harder to learn than marine, but the skill-curve could steep in the beginning and then level off for aliens (that's my current hunch), while marines is smoother but takes longer to get good at.
Another problem my be celerity and how hard it is to hit anything that's moving so quickly. I tried to address this in the beta by having celerity only work outside of combat (ie, have it slowly increase and let you get between rooms quickly, but stop working once you take damage or attack). Most people didn't seem to like that concept though, so it was changed. Maybe it's a culprit now?
I disagree... <a href="http://youtu.be/W1ZtBCpo0eU" target="_blank">http://youtu.be/W1ZtBCpo0eU</a>
Not sure what you mean, isn't that how it works right now? I think the issue with that approach is that celerity skulks have usually closed the distance by the time they get shot. So the fact that they slow down afterwards is small comfort to the marines.
I think we have a hit-reg problem, but I definitely am trying to figure out if one side is easier to play or not. I always thought aliens were harder to learn than marine, but the skill-curve could steep in the beginning and then level off for aliens (that's my current hunch), while marines is smoother but takes longer to get good at.
Another problem my be celerity and how hard it is to hit anything that's moving so quickly. I tried to address this in the beta by having celerity only work outside of combat (ie, have it slowly increase and let you get between rooms quickly, but stop working once you take damage or attack). Most people didn't seem to like that concept though, so it was changed. Maybe it's a culprit now?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
your right on the skill curves. Aliens suffer a bit because the fade and lerk require alot of skill, if you could make those classes more accessible to new players by lowering the skill floor (but not affecting the skill ceiling which vets are happy with atm), perhaps the 'aliens are hard' argument would go away.
As for marines, i think its more a case of new players not knowing what to do, at the moment they rely on good commanders with mic's that tell them where and what they should be doing. There needs to be better ways of displaying information to increase new palyers situational awareness. Off the top of my head ... res towers are shown under your personal res in the form of white dots ... how is a new player suppose to know this ? making those dots into icons of res towers would make more sense.
As for celerity
i would argue to remove it from the game and replace it with something else. Its impossible to balance. The ONOS is a little too good with celerity (it has charge too) the lerk seems a bit too slow without celerity but then a bit too fast with celerity. Fades dont benefit that much from celerity and same goes for gorges. Skulks benefit the most from celerity and without it i think high level play will suffer. Probably the worst thing about celerity is the fact that when you are hit you lose the upgrades effects for 2 or 3 seconds.
If skulks had better skilled based movement, i dont think anyone would miss having celerity removed from the game. So yeah, replace celerity with something else and then all lifeform speeds will be consistant and much easier to balance.
Simple objectives like "kill the marines in repair so your team can try to expand", then once thats done a message pops up saying "kill the phase gate in repair since that is the most immediate threat to you and have 1 or 2 bots pop out and run around trying not very hard to kill you.
This might be simply too big of a project but it would provide a way to learn the games general flow of events and allow the player to see things though rather then dieing every 2 seconds the second they see a marine.
I think we have a hit-reg problem, but I definitely am trying to figure out if one side is easier to play or not. I always thought aliens were harder to learn than marine, but the skill-curve could steep in the beginning and then level off for aliens (that's my current hunch), while marines is smoother but takes longer to get good at.
Another problem my be celerity and how hard it is to hit anything that's moving so quickly. I tried to address this in the beta by having celerity only work outside of combat (ie, have it slowly increase and let you get between rooms quickly, but stop working once you take damage or attack). Most people didn't seem to like that concept though, so it was changed. Maybe it's a culprit now?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Seriously, we have lived through NS1, and we should know the fundamental issues by now.
Whether it is marine or aliens, as soon as we enter a server, we are trying to figure out where we should be and what we should be doing.
What can get us integrated in the game fast without it looking like a giant leg cast? NS1 Hive sight was a great way to communicate where stuff was happening without opening a huge map during game play. As marines, I don't really care to see something that resembles a glowing maraschino cherry when I am trying to find out where the rest of my team is going for an attack.
Maybe if you could tag a fellow marine as a "squad mate" so that whenever you tapped a map key[or equivalent], you could be directed to their direction as if they motion tracking was on.
Really, I think if newer players knew what they had to do upon joining a game, they wouldn't be guessing- that and if they knew how to properly set their fov+resolution+mouse sensitivity, they would perform better.
-afterthought-
for many, the learning experience is still a very selfish process in that you are focused on yourself, and perhaps a newer player's confidence is lacking and reinforces this. So anything that invokes confidence during the learning phase will help bring players out and work as a team
I haven't read most of these posts, but most players really do need how to "learn to play."
I think the real culprit is the lack of any kind of decent education system. I'm not talking about the basics, like "this is a shotgun" or "here is a skulk."
I'm talking about how a game typically flows. Opportunities that present themselves in games and how to capitalize on them. For example, I almost never see a marine player suicide to kill an upgrade chamber (spur, veil, shell) without my direct communication to do so. These upgrade chambers are <i>ridiculously</i> expensive for aliens to replace and <i>very easy</i> for a two man marine team (sometimes one depending on the structure) to kill. These chambers should always be a target, but rarely are.
There are many more examples that I can come up with. I'd like to see commanders have more options to communicate with their players outside of voice comms. There's a recent Idea & Suggestions thread that suggest <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=126699" target="_blank">mandatory squad placement for all marines.</a> On top of that, I'd like to see a constant "Your sqaud orders here" type text always on the marine HUD.
If the game isn't going to teach people how to play properly (which would be difficult to do), it should at least provide quite a bit of help/tools so that players and teach other players.
And unto thou I shall grant a numerousness of serves
Such that if thy ass is being rolled on one thou may easily switchest to another
And the people cheered and it was good
Honestly tho rolls will happen noob friendly hud and tutorials or no. The best thing to do is just switch to another server, theres usually plenty.
Pretty much this. And celerity doesn't do anything in combat. That was never changed. Jesus.
Charlie, why did you even reply to this thread? Because some f*****g newbs whinged and you were afraid of losing sales? As for the steep learning curve, are you honestly buying that BS? Do people honestly believe this game is harder to learn than games like Starcraft, Supreme Commander and Company of Heroes? People who play those games would take one look @ NS2 and say "This is baby RTS". The people who are whinging are the same old Call of Duty scrubs who are accustomed to the following:
spawn -> run out -> kill -> get killed -> respawn -> rinse and repeat x 50 -> unlock guns -> spend another $60 on a new COD in 12 month
Seriously people, stop giving those losers anymore attentions than they deserve. We got their $10 from the x-mas sale and they've served their purpose: UWE got the fund they need to keep developing NS2. So that's that. Let them play NS2 for a few weeks and make a couple of whinges on the forum and they'll go back to Black Ops II before you know it.
I can name a bunch.
Modern Warfare 2
Modern Warfare 3
Black Ops
Black Ops 2
Halo: Reach
Modern Warfare 2
Modern Warfare 3
Black Ops
Black Ops 2
Halo: Reach<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yeah, stay in those games, don't come to NS please. Thank you.
spawn -> run out -> kill -> get killed -> respawn -> rinse and repeat x 50 -> unlock guns -> spend another $60 on a new COD in 12 month
Seriously people, stop giving those losers anymore attentions than they deserve. We got their $10 from the x-mas sale and they've served their purpose: UWE got the fund they need to keep developing NS2. So that's that. Let them play NS2 for a few weeks and make a couple of whinges on the forum and they'll go back to Black Ops II before you know it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The hell is your problem? You know the difference between this game and Starcraft? You actually get to play people of your relative skill level in Starcraft thanks to the different leagues based on your level of skill. You join a random server in NS2 and hope there aren't any people rolling face.
You know why UWE should give a damn? If they want to maintain a positive reputation to the gaming community and have people BUY their next game, then they better damn well address the multitude of problems present in NS2. You CANNOT have a multiplayer-only game and have the multiplayer experience suck for people who somehow still need to "learn to play." Hell the multiplayer experience just sucks unless you are running some stupidly OC'd computer.
UWE is nowhere near popular enough to not give a damn about "those losers" and ignore their plight. Though it would be interesting to see where UWE will be years down the road if they only cater to the hardcore elitist ###### crowd.
spawn -> run out -> kill -> get killed -> respawn -> rinse and repeat x 50 -> unlock guns -> spend another $60 on a new COD in 12 month
Seriously people, stop giving those losers anymore attentions than they deserve. We got their $10 from the x-mas sale and they've served their purpose: UWE got the fund they need to keep developing NS2. So that's that. Let them play NS2 for a few weeks and make a couple of whinges on the forum and they'll go back to Black Ops II before you know it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Can't tell if troll or overzealous fanboy. Possibly both.
Also, yes, this game actually is harder to learn than Starcraft 2 and Company of Heroes. Starcraft 2 has a singleplayer (of varying difficulty) explaining most units in the game. The in-game menu has a help and tech-tree diagrams. In addition, you can play against bots to improve your commanding skill. Once done, you can play co-op with other players against bots once you're ready for the next level (also of varying difficulty tailored to your level). FINALLY, once you're ready for your first match, it gives you 5 random matches before setting you in a league appropriate for your skill. SC2 is easier to learn but harder to master. SC2's teaching mechanics (which are appropriate for basically all gamers) are something NS2 should aspire to.
Also, you address Flayra like he's someone above everyone (when really he's probably just a nice guy with a passion for gaming and NS) yet you also include censored swear words and insult the very community he's trying to grow and nurture. That confuses me.\
@Flayra: The Hit-registation issue is really frustrating as it's something as a player you can't tell if it's due to the alien's skill, your bad aim, or hit-reg that caused your death. I think we can all agree fixing the hit-reg would put a good amount of water on frustration and anger in NS.
Don't know if it's any of the devs concern, sure as hell isn't mine.
If some people can't keep up, they should stick with CoD or any of its hundred clones out there instead of ruining a perfectly good game so it can fit their lack of abilities.
If some people can't keep up, they should stick with CoD or any of its hundred clones out there instead of ruining a perfectly good game so it can fit their lack of abilities.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, a few posts up a dev just suggested it is actually their concern.
How seriously they will be acting on this I cant tell. But his comment about celerity suggests to me they are unfortunately nowhere near to hitting the nail on the head... The issue here is about the lack of friendly tools to introduce the game to noobs compounded with the obvious lack of balance in pub play skewed against the more noob friendly marines. Unless both aspects are addressed new players will most likely keep on complaining which suggests the player base wont grow much. Just a wild guess though, not fact based.
Now some of you may not give a damn about new players but I do. I just joined this coimmunity but like this game a lot; and the bigger the player base the better for the future of this game me thinks. I only hope devs agree with that, that is all.
spawn -> run out -> kill -> get killed -> respawn -> rinse and repeat x 50 -> unlock guns -> spend another $60 on a new COD in 12 month[...]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
THANK YOU! finally someone has the guts to say the truth!
If anybody really thinks that games like CoD are about teamplay....yeah...you're lying to yourself pretty badly...
Nobody is really working together unless they're in a clan or playing with a buddy.
Now back to NS2
Be honest guys..how long did it take you to learn the basics of NS1? A day? two? Maybe up to a week (depending on how much time you've spent in total on playing).
The people we're talking about here are those who expect a game to be like this:
1) change graphics
2) join game
3) switch brain off
4) find out how many 4w3s0me weapons are in this game
5) find out what to kill
6) repeating that for x-time until it becomes boring
7) quit game
They expect a game to be that simple that they only have to start it and immediately will be able to know what to do and how everything works. Nothing new in life works like this!
Those players who are really interested in a game are patient and they will stay to become better. Communication is a big part of NS, so there's always somebody you can talk to and ask.
If anybody really thinks that games like CoD are about teamplay....yeah...you're lying to yourself pretty badly...
Nobody is really working together unless they're in a clan or playing with a buddy.
Now back to NS2
Be honest guys..how long did it take you to learn the basics of NS1? A day? two? Maybe up to a week (depending on how much time you've spent in total on playing).
The people we're talking about here are those who expect a game to be like this:
1) change graphics
2) join game
3) switch brain off
4) find out how many 4w3s0me weapons are in this game
5) find out what to kill
6) repeating that for x-time until it becomes boring
7) quit game
They expect a game to be that simple that they only have to start it and immediately will be able to know what to do and how everything works. Nothing new in life works like this!
Those players who are really interested in a game are patient and they will stay to become better. Communication is a big part of NS, so there's always somebody you can talk to and ask.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Basically these scrubs thought NS2 was Call of Duty with aliens. Seriously, GTFO!? I can't believe Charlie is actually planning to "address this issue". What's your plan, bud? Make combat the de facto mode again like you guys did to NS1?
/smh
If I Ruled The World...
I would focus on the Hit Reg problem, and maybe some simple tutorial like TF2 has. I would not even touch balance until the hit reg was solved as it could seriously mask or impersonate the real problem.
After that and the (lets be honest) percentage of people that are not interested in the core game play leave, focus on balance. Allow some time for the people that "just want to shoot aliens" and treat this as some glorified DM game to get bored and leave; it may take a month for them to go. Trying to get people not interested in teamwork, not interested in doing more than shooting aliens, to play 'right' is like herding cats. They aren't interested in the core game play, they will skew any metric used to gauge balance.