Normal Armories should heal marines, but should NOT restore their armor.
Advanced Armories should heal marines AND restore their armor.
That's what I would go for as a dev. If it turns out to be completely stupid and to crapcripple gameplay, well then... simply remove it, but please give it a try.
I think this is the way to go for. Not sure why it hasnt been tried out this way but we did have a build without armor healing on normal armory. Oh those yells.
Anyone who plays this game and thinks something like welding a team-mate is busy work should uninstall. I know, there are pub players out there who feel that way, and they shouldn't have bought the game.
But I tell you what, I can fix it for those people too: lets get some hats made and give hats after you weld a billion points of armor. Or even an achievement on steam.
Yes, these people must come from hat fortress, I too laugh at all these people who bought an FPS/RTS and want to shoot things instead of standing around buildings requesting welds and never leaving base until you have full armour.
If you think a bunch *snip* marines in marine spawns waiting for welds is some kind of innovative game play mechanic or the act of buying a welder turns your middle name into teamwork I want you to follow the above advice too, because as soon as you stop with the bullshit closed testing and roll something like this out live guess what every pub server will be filled with. Literally introducing more PVE elements and immersion into a FPS/PVP game, these forums man I swear.
Why would AMX mod (used on every server that hosted NS 1) have multiple self weld mods available for download throughout most of NS1's history when all people needed to do was l2weld, it boggles the mind it does.
I again agree with Xao. Play NS1 for a while, you will see that welding teammates is not a strategy, it is not a meaningful choice. You just *had* to do it. Marines already have too much stuff they are forced to do without adding another one.
However i think the underlying problem is aliens not dealing enough damage, and that is a problem solved by bringing back focus.
I again agree with Xao. Play NS1 for a while, you will see that welding teammates is not a strategy, it is not a meaningful choice. You just *had* to do it. Marines already have too much stuff they are forced to do without adding another one.
However i think the underlying problem is aliens not dealing enough damage, and that is a problem solved by bringing back focus.
While I understand your point. If you think the problem is the lack of damage output for aliens, then you could say bringing back focus is a poor way of fixing it as well, cause focus would be something you *had* to have, and not a strategic choice.
Focus skulks are notoriously bad for chomping RTs due to decreased DPS. You made a choice by taking focus to be anti-marine rather than anti structures. And aliens need skulks to be on RTs chomp duty.
I again agree with Xao. Play NS1 for a while, you will see that welding teammates is not a strategy, it is not a meaningful choice. You just *had* to do it. Marines already have too much stuff they are forced to do without adding another one.
However i think the underlying problem is aliens not dealing enough damage, and that is a problem solved by bringing back focus.
Focus really shined because marines sometimes didn't have full armor and it made it amazing at finishing them off. This really isn't the case in NS2 as with armor healing on armories there is no reason not to have full armor. Focus increased damage by 100% and time between the attacks by 150%, effectively it is a longer TTK. This doesn't increase damage output in the least. The net outcome will be the same. There are other cases to bring focus back, this is not one of them.
edit: to correct focus values
SUPER edit: While we are along the lines of things not being a meaningful choice... Is humping an armory any more meaningful?
I again agree with Xao. Play NS1 for a while, you will see that welding teammates is not a strategy, it is not a meaningful choice. You just *had* to do it. Marines already have too much stuff they are forced to do without adding another one.
However i think the underlying problem is aliens not dealing enough damage, and that is a problem solved by bringing back focus.
Yes with no auto-weld from armory, to weld or not to weld would not be a strategic decision or meaningful choice. You (or your teammate) will simply have to do it to survive. However, WHEN to weld will be a strategic decision and meaningful choice.
And while I am fan of focus, I think that it would be far worse solution to aliens dealing too little damage than this.
I think that the AA should be able to heal armor, but only when there is a second chair up. Prevents turtling, adds yet another incentive to get out of base, and removes the worst case scenario of having no welders.
AngeluszHarmonic entropistJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18072Members, Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester
Modbreak: Enough with the off-topic arguing about who's right and who's wrong. If you have something constructive to contribute to this thread, feel free to do so. I have cleaned up each messy post from page 7 and on.
Roobubba and halfofaheaven have proven to understand the scientific method of testing. This, however, does not need to be discussed here.
Zero-tolerance policy for off-topic/spam/overly negative posts in this thread after this post.
I don't get how armory armor healing can simultaneously lose marines the game and make aliens ineffective. Either they send marines back to base to heal or marines don't go back to base to heal. Making marines run back to base costs them more time than respawning in many cases.
I really don't see the point in taking armor healing off armories. More busy work is not appreciated, I don't find a glaring inadequacy in the marine tech (no way to repair your own armor) to be a meaningful 'teamplay' addition. If I get welded because I HAVE to, it's annoying, both on the receiving and giving ends. It is no more 'teamwork' than having to yell at the commander to drop an RT, I don't feel magically 'connected' to him through the deep emotional significance of him clicking near me like some sort of deranged born again theist, it is literally his job to do that, he has no other function, he either does it or doesn't.
If players choose to support each other, that is appreciated and adds to the teamwork atmosphere, if they are forced to do so by mechanics, that is exactly as emotionally significant as most things made out of mechanics.
If the commander is kind enough to drop medkits and ammo without me asking simply because it may make my life a touch easier, that is nice, I like that. If a teammate chooses to weld me because he thinks that may be helpful, that is also nice. I try to return the favor whenever I can, but 'teamwork' born entirely of necessity is no teamwork at all. It's simply self interest, and nothing more whatsoever. I don't want to work with you, I am forced to do so by the annoying-as-hell deficiencies in the game mechanics.
Trying to force teamwork is like locking a dozen people in a 5x5 meter box and telling them they won't be let out again until they all make friends.
you are not forced. the marine commander can simply build a MAC which he can even move out to weld the marines in the field. its possible that the commander wont use MACs, but its also possible that the commander wont research any armor upgrades which causes a similar situation. even worse, the commander wont build an armory. you would either eject this commander, or try to teach him to use MACs / build an armory / get upgrades. in the ~30 games i played so far i didnt see this change being a problem at all. also, you call "healing each other" not being team work? i dont understand this logic, you are not forced to heal each other. its not like that you cant fire your weapon before you welded at least 100 points of armor...
No it isn't possible that the commander won't research any armor upgrades, or at least it is not possible for longer than the ten to fifteen minutes it would take to lose the game if the commander chose to pursue that 'strategy'.
If the commander is simply expected to use MACs, what on earth is the point of the change? It adds nothing to teamwork, it simply forces the commander to pay extra to unlock armor repairs.
If welders were to be the only, or primary source of armor recovery, you are not forced to weld in the same sense you are not forced to buy any additional weapons, which is to say you ARE forced to do it because not doing it neglects one of the fundamental manners in which your team remains competitive in the later game. Marines without armor are useless, they die near instantly to everything. Suggesting marines should be perfectly willing to do without their armor after battle because 'it's completely optional' is ludicrous, it's saying they should be happy walking around with less than the starting armor.
In the howevermany games I've played I've seen no problem with armories repairing armor. Intelligent marines push when they need to push, intelligent comms drop health and ammo when it is beneficial to do so, intelligent team-workers use their welders to support each other if it is practical to do so. Generally with exos because exos make it far more practical to weld as the benefit is greater.
If you lack these things your commander can drop forward armories or utilise forward bases, or ensure you have a good phase network, or push for exos to encourage marines to keep hold of their investments, or research jetpacks to enhance marine mobility, there are actually many ways to get around specific deficiencies in marine play that may stem from armory healing being an attractive option to poor players, though of course the main thing to suggest is play better. Bad players make bad decisions, you can't simply remove all of the bad decisions from the game, especially not the ones that are, situationally, very good decisions. It's like saying you should remove the flamethrower from the game because the more idiotic comms might go HURR DURR FIRE GOOD ALL BUY FIRE SHOOT GUN and lose the match because of it.
Armories giving out potent healing is useful to marines when properly used, it is detrimental when improperly used, part of being a competent player is knowing when to and not to use it. The same is true for welding each other. It is not, generally worth doing so, partly because armories are there and work better as a mechanic. Sometimes it is useful, sometimes players do it out of consideration. I think far more of my teammates if they do it because they perceive it to be situationally beneficial than because they have no other alternative if they don't want to lose.
Welders are already bought yet while they cost 5 p-res.
If armories don't repair armor, welders will get even more useful.
It makes no sense to increase the usefulness of something AND decrease the cost.
You're not increasing the usefullness of something, you are decreasing the usefulness of the armory, and providing no benefit in return. Is the armory getting buffed somehow? No?
In fact this is a clear-cut nerf to marines who will almost certainly be at 100% armor a far less amount of the time. That's "more useful" to them? Perhaps this is a new way of using the term "useful" that I wasn't previously aware of.
Everything is about tradeoffs. If you are going to nerf marines with no armory welding, then GIVE them something to compensate for that. Free welders would fill that hole. Instead you want to nerf them and then give them the finger by saying they have to PAY to get welded up?
Let's be clear, there will be NO WAY in the game to get armor repaired for free. None. Every time a marine wants to repair their armor it will cost p-res. Will aliens be paying a similar cost to repair armor? No.
That's a big fat nerf.
What next? Remove the 'auto tool' and require marines to have a welder to BUILD ANYTHING?
Need to have a welder to repair power nodes too? I can picture it now...
"Power is down in Operations, quick, weld up the power node!"
"I don't have a welder."
"Power is down, I can't buy a welder."
"Well I can't drop welders without power."
"..."
"gg"
That seems to be the way we're going.
The only point I agree with you is, that it may impact balance. ... In any case it is more important to implement fun mechanics and to try them out instead of dismissing them in fear of changing the balance.
Fun? How is this fun? More mindless busy work where marines spend even MORE time standing around pressing M1? Don't they do that enough already compared to aliens? We want to make them do MORE of that? I can handle marines needing to weld marines, but making them pay for something as basic as getting 'healed' is so counter-intuitive that it's beyond words.
Sorry, I'll respectfully disagree on the assertion that standing around welding people is 'fun', but what makes it ten times worse is that you make people choose between things that are REALLY fun (like new weapons, a jetpack or an EXO etc) and welders. Now they need to spend ~20 res a game on welders instead of buying that shottie - or the EXO, since they don't have enough res to buy it.
Now they spend res on something that doesn't benefit them personally at ALL in any way, shape or form - with no guarantee that they will even get to use it before they die and their 5 p-res welder is sitting on the ground across the map - forcing them to buy another one.
Say what you will about the mechanic, but please don't insult my intelligence by suggesting that players will find it "fun" to be paying 5 res for welders to do what they got for free before.
I don't know why people consider welding team mates/res nodes/structures busy work.
Because it involves no meaningful decision-making and no difficult tasks. These are essential elements of gameplay. Welding is not gameplay, it's merely activity. AKA "busywork".
Now, that's not entirely true. As I pointed out in this comment, because welding takes time and time is a valuable resource, deciding whether or not to weld is a meaningful decision. Or rather, it can be, in some cases. But in most cases it's not all that hard of a decision, and unfortunately in every case the result of the decision is to spend X amount of time doing nothing, which isn't very fun.
Welding teammates is easier now - the last time armories didn't heal armor, welding was absolutely horrible. It was actually HARD hitting moving teammates with that bloody welder. Not fun.
Welders cost kinda hurts. A team with level 2 armor and welders is an awesome hitsquad though. Even better - a MAC following them. Obstructing the aliens and automatically welding marines. It's great.
I definitely see the benefits of not running back to base to heal and forward armories are pretty damn powerful, but hell's sake. It's just not fun buying that welder and repairing your mates, only to get wiped out and losing that 5 res.
Maybe if researching welders would cost more but give you a welder when you spawn? Like a 25 res upgrade...
SewlekThe programmer previously known as SchimmelJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
one thing you forgot about this discussion is that there are people out there who love to play support roles. When i play pub games (balance mod or vanilla ns2) im all the time surprised how many people are using welders, and you see in general a lot of gorges who arguably lose quite some combat effectiveness. i dont have any statistics here now, but when in your team are about 20% players who like support roles, then that armory change wont do much to gameplay, and so far this theory got confirmed by the games i was playing. im saying theory since i dont have any facts on this, probably better to call it a feeling.
I'd be in support of this, if it wasn't a personal resource sink. Reducing the cost to 2/3 pRes would make it affordable.
Also, starting off with Welders researched.
This would be a big buff to Arcs and Exos though, if everyone has welders.
I really dont get this thread.
Armories healing Armor is just right. Aliens have a small autoreg, a Regenerationupgrade and Crags, which also heals Armor.
Really dont get it, why this feature should be removed.
Allowing marines to weld themselves would make the issue even worse even if you remove armories healing armor.
Which issue?
The fact marines now can simply run back to an armory to heal which is often close to the front lines or ask team mates to weld you. Both scenarios have a delay in the time you either A. Run back or B. Ask for support.
So if you remove scenario A since that is what this topic is about your left with B. Even on top pro teams when some one gets damaged more often then not the player whos damaged realized he needs welding before any one else. They then have to say (weld me bob!) then bob has to run over and weld him leaving 2 marines clumped together.
Imagine after getting damaged by the fade instantly whipping your welder out and welding yourself. You eliminate all the delays (instant health), you eliminate teamwork and you can keep your potentially good positioning when he comes back.
Having the ability to weld yourself would make things 100x worse then now.
I think you're overstating your case.
Self-welding would not eliminate all the delays, as it will still take time to actually do the welding. It would eliminate the delay in walking over to the person that needs welding, but how significant is that delay, relative to the time spent actually doing the welding?
Self-welding would also eliminate the delay in attracting the attention of someone who could weld you, but based on other comments here that delay is probably unwanted - people are asking for better visual indications of who has a welder so that instead of saying "Hey, can somebody weld me please?" the welders and weldees can more quickly find each other.
You're right that self-welding would eliminate clumping. However, this is only going to be the case if everyone buys a welder. As long as welders aren't free, smart teams will only carry a few of them and will trade off the tactical disadvantage of clumping for the strategic advantage of saving res.
Perhaps self-welding should be possible, but less effective than buddy-welding. Maybe it takes 50% longer, or requires you to stare at the floor so that your tactical awareness is hampered. This would preserve the selfish incentive for people to buy welders (because they could weld themselves whenever they needed it) while also preserving the incentive to weld your buddy (because it will heal them faster than they could heal themselves, which helps the team). It would also preserve the tactical disadvantage in welding, so that getting hurt but not killed is still a significant impediment.
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
I like the idea but it can produce problems.
* less life expectancy without welders. As welders are now a personal investment, it takes more comm dedication to drop some aswell, swamping the comm who already is busy enought. (unlike the kham).
This requires more cooperation from the marines saying who is going to save for weapons, who will grab a welder etc. While in essence al up to this point is good for teamplay, again the kharaa team does not have this requirement. So we are increasing a teamplay need on marines, who are already swamped on this issue, and do little to reproduce the same need on kharaa.
NS1 had some other choices making it less problematic to run around without armor.
* Bigger maps, so you were less expected to meet someone. Aliens had to defend there fatties & RTs a lot more as it took res to gorge and more to drop a rt.
* Your fades had no shadowstep so essentially needed blink to 'dodge'. I love shadowstep both as marine and alien, but it allows for far far better ambush tactics. You will all probably remember focus shredded marines with a armor disadvantage, because it also supported the ambush tactics in essence. But focus was a dedicated upgrade on a weak upgrade tech tree.
* mines stacked & could be placed on infestation, so they could be used a lot more for protection around your moving marine squad. Any skulk hitting a mine was not chomping a marine without armor.
* lerk had either bite or spikes depending on NS1 version, but in most not both, thus providing less ways to take out a armorless marine.
* a big one, but nothing else repaired armor. People were used to welders or nothing. These days, people are NOT used to the mechanic of having no armor repair except welders. Changing this now will cause confusion and takes a lot of pug wipes before they will learn, most likely.
So in essence I am for the idea to let welders and macs repair armor, and nothing else, but we have to fix the problems first. With current upgrades, values and tech, marines will get shredded.
In the howevermany games I've played I've seen no problem with armories repairing armor. Intelligent marines push when they need to push, intelligent comms drop health and ammo when it is beneficial to do so, intelligent team-workers use their welders to support each other if it is practical to do so.
If you lack these things your commander can drop forward armories or utilise forward bases, or ensure you have a good phase network, or push for exos to encourage marines to keep hold of their investments, or research jetpacks to enhance marine mobility, there are actually many ways to get around specific deficiencies in marine play that may stem from armory healing being an attractive option to poor players, though of course the main thing to suggest is play better. Bad players make bad decisions, you can't simply remove all of the bad decisions from the game, especially not the ones that are, situationally, very good decisions.
Armories giving out potent healing is useful to marines when properly used, it is detrimental when improperly used, part of being a competent player is knowing when to and not to use it. The same is true for welding each other. It is not, generally worth doing so, partly because armories are there and work better as a mechanic. Sometimes it is useful, sometimes players do it out of consideration. I think far more of my teammates if they do it because they perceive it to be situationally beneficial than because they have no other alternative if they don't want to lose.
This. This this this this this etc this. Well said.
one thing you forgot about this discussion is that there are people out there who love to play support roles.
I actually love to play a support role! In looking at my ~1500 hours of TF2 stats (none on idle) - medic is my number one for hours, and engie is #3 as well.
The difference?
It's my CHOICE to play a support role. The game doesn't force me to do it.
In TF2 if there is no medic, people are able to fully heal up with a medkit. While having a medic can be beneficial, the game is such so that no one is made inherently weaker by NOT having a medic. In NS2, if I take a dual-mini and park myself in main base on defence while the team assaults a hive, (to prevent anyone from pressing the "I win" power button) while it's not as fun as being on the front line, I'm willing to make that sacrifice. It's my CHOICE to take that 75 p-res and sit doing nothing with it. It's my CHOICE to 'take one for the team' and do the boring job if it gets us a win.
Respectfully, making people pay for welders is taking away that choice for support roles. It's like saying "you're going to play a support role whether you like it or not - and if you don't then your team will be weaker as a result."
Free welders give people the CHOICE as to how they play, since everyone will have one. It costs nothing to whip out a free welder and give someone a weld. Welders that cost money take away that choice. Instead it forces people to spend money on 'support role' tools when they don't want to - since refusing to do so only weakens the team.
well the game doesn't force you to play support anyway. you could totally ignore welding.. it just wouldn't necessarily increase your chances of winning. For example, right now you are forced to weld if aliens attack a critical structure and the comm doesn't research macs, or they are bilebombing.
nothing forces you to weld it, but it won't help your chances of winning. this is the same case as it would be with no-armory-armor.
currently nothing forces you to weld each other because the comm might drop a forward armory. or he might not. you are still relying on your teammate (comm) to provide a method of healing armor. the change would only shift it from the comm to your other teammates.
or are you suggesting that welding buildings is a boring mechanic and needs to go away in favor of self-regenerating buildings?
Maybe if researching welders would cost more but give you a welder when you spawn? Like a 25 res upgrade...
I think this is a good idea that's also worth testing out (in addition to testing the current implementation for whether Savant's fears prove to be founded or not).
On my way home now so hopefully I'll be able to test the mod myself in about 3h (yeah, I have a horrible commute).
All I know is when I played NS1, where we not only had to spend team res for that welder but had to ask for it from the comm also, we not only took them but there were tense moments after a fights where we traded the welder back and forth to heal each other. This was awesome fun and incredibly memorable. It worked, well, and did so for quite some time.
The welders should cost Pres and not less of it either. You can share a welder in a group and when that player dies it's available for the group to retrieve. Or take 2 so you don't have to toss the welder to each other. I hate to throw out the cliche that gamers these days want things on a silver platter but this is the case here. No, you shouldn't be able to rambo heal yourself. Yes, choosing to help your team should be a choice with consequence.
I'm not completely opposed to compromise however, I think the AA healing armor is a fine idea. At 20 additional res and research time to upgrade you're making a clear strategic decision with obvious consequences. They are not very strong and a 30 res blow is not insignificant. It means that buying welders is the generally better choice but in some situations going AA to support the line is validated.
It's my CHOICE to take that 75 p-res and sit doing nothing with it. It's my CHOICE to 'take one for the team' and do the boring job if it gets us a win.
Respectfully, making people pay for welders is taking away that choice for support roles. It's like saying "you're going to play a support role whether you like it or not - and if you don't then your team will be weaker as a result."
In one line you say that spending pres for the team is choice and in the next you say it's taking away choice. I happen to agree with the former, that spending res is a choice made more valuable by consequence, while it would appear that you don't even agree with yourself.
Making AA the only one to heal armor isnt a bad Idea, but if you wanna just take it away outright you have to be fair... Crags and hives should lose the ability to heal alien armor, and only gorges can heal spray it back, or crags can only heal health and armor and gorges and hives cant. because marines right now only have 2 ways to get armor back while aliens have 3.
It's my CHOICE to play a support role. The game [TF2] doesn't force me to do it.
Respectfully, making people pay for welders is taking away that choice for support roles. It's like saying "you're going to play a support role whether you like it or not - and if you don't then your team will be weaker as a result."
Free welders give people the CHOICE as to how they play, since everyone will have one. It costs nothing to whip out a free welder and give someone a weld. Welders that cost money take away that choice. Instead it forces people to spend money on 'support role' tools when they don't want to - since refusing to do so only weakens the team.
I think you're overstating your case.
Refusing to buy a welder does weaken the team, but there's still a choice. Refusing to buy one also benefits the team by saving res, which may be needed to buy a shotgun or mines, which will benefit the team.
It's by no means mandatory for everyone to carry a welder, even if armories no longer repair. One or two welders per strike force would be adequate in most situations. People who don't want to play support roles don't have to carry welders and don't have to pay res to perform a role they don't want to do.
What expensive welders vs. free welders does is make the choice an interesting choice. If they're free, then everyone gets welders, and people who want to weld will weld and people who don't want to weld will get a welder anyway "just in case". If they cost, then only people who REALLY DO want to weld will get them, and people will have to think twice about whether or not they should buy one. Do we have enough on the team already? Am I better off getting a welder or saving up for a shotgun? Is the team better off?
Making AA the only one to heal armor isnt a bad Idea, but if you wanna just take it away outright you have to be fair... Crags and hives should lose the ability to heal alien armor, and only gorges can heal spray it back, or crags can only heal health and armor and gorges and hives cant. because marines right now only have 2 ways to get armor back while aliens have 3.
Life isn't fair. Natural Selection is a struggle for the survival of the fittest. Which will win? The race that builds superior tools due to technology, or the race that has superior physical traits due to genetic alteration?
are you suggesting that welding buildings is a boring mechanic and needs to go away in favor of self-regenerating buildings?
Welding buildings is a boring mechanic. But it needs to stay, because (as I mentioned here and here) the man-seconds spent welding buildings are a valuable resource and thus an important element of the strategic gameplay.
Comments
I think this is the way to go for. Not sure why it hasnt been tried out this way but we did have a build without armor healing on normal armory. Oh those yells.
Yes, these people must come from hat fortress, I too laugh at all these people who bought an FPS/RTS and want to shoot things instead of standing around buildings requesting welds and never leaving base until you have full armour.
If you think a bunch *snip* marines in marine spawns waiting for welds is some kind of innovative game play mechanic or the act of buying a welder turns your middle name into teamwork I want you to follow the above advice too, because as soon as you stop with the bullshit closed testing and roll something like this out live guess what every pub server will be filled with. Literally introducing more PVE elements and immersion into a FPS/PVP game, these forums man I swear.
Why would AMX mod (used on every server that hosted NS 1) have multiple self weld mods available for download throughout most of NS1's history when all people needed to do was l2weld, it boggles the mind it does.
Watch your language. - Angelusz
However i think the underlying problem is aliens not dealing enough damage, and that is a problem solved by bringing back focus.
While I understand your point. If you think the problem is the lack of damage output for aliens, then you could say bringing back focus is a poor way of fixing it as well, cause focus would be something you *had* to have, and not a strategic choice.
Focus really shined because marines sometimes didn't have full armor and it made it amazing at finishing them off. This really isn't the case in NS2 as with armor healing on armories there is no reason not to have full armor. Focus increased damage by 100% and time between the attacks by 150%, effectively it is a longer TTK. This doesn't increase damage output in the least. The net outcome will be the same. There are other cases to bring focus back, this is not one of them.
edit: to correct focus values
SUPER edit: While we are along the lines of things not being a meaningful choice... Is humping an armory any more meaningful?
Yes with no auto-weld from armory, to weld or not to weld would not be a strategic decision or meaningful choice. You (or your teammate) will simply have to do it to survive. However, WHEN to weld will be a strategic decision and meaningful choice.
And while I am fan of focus, I think that it would be far worse solution to aliens dealing too little damage than this.
Roobubba and halfofaheaven have proven to understand the scientific method of testing. This, however, does not need to be discussed here.
Zero-tolerance policy for off-topic/spam/overly negative posts in this thread after this post.
No it isn't possible that the commander won't research any armor upgrades, or at least it is not possible for longer than the ten to fifteen minutes it would take to lose the game if the commander chose to pursue that 'strategy'.
If the commander is simply expected to use MACs, what on earth is the point of the change? It adds nothing to teamwork, it simply forces the commander to pay extra to unlock armor repairs.
If welders were to be the only, or primary source of armor recovery, you are not forced to weld in the same sense you are not forced to buy any additional weapons, which is to say you ARE forced to do it because not doing it neglects one of the fundamental manners in which your team remains competitive in the later game. Marines without armor are useless, they die near instantly to everything. Suggesting marines should be perfectly willing to do without their armor after battle because 'it's completely optional' is ludicrous, it's saying they should be happy walking around with less than the starting armor.
In the howevermany games I've played I've seen no problem with armories repairing armor. Intelligent marines push when they need to push, intelligent comms drop health and ammo when it is beneficial to do so, intelligent team-workers use their welders to support each other if it is practical to do so. Generally with exos because exos make it far more practical to weld as the benefit is greater.
If you lack these things your commander can drop forward armories or utilise forward bases, or ensure you have a good phase network, or push for exos to encourage marines to keep hold of their investments, or research jetpacks to enhance marine mobility, there are actually many ways to get around specific deficiencies in marine play that may stem from armory healing being an attractive option to poor players, though of course the main thing to suggest is play better. Bad players make bad decisions, you can't simply remove all of the bad decisions from the game, especially not the ones that are, situationally, very good decisions. It's like saying you should remove the flamethrower from the game because the more idiotic comms might go HURR DURR FIRE GOOD ALL BUY FIRE SHOOT GUN and lose the match because of it.
Armories giving out potent healing is useful to marines when properly used, it is detrimental when improperly used, part of being a competent player is knowing when to and not to use it. The same is true for welding each other. It is not, generally worth doing so, partly because armories are there and work better as a mechanic. Sometimes it is useful, sometimes players do it out of consideration. I think far more of my teammates if they do it because they perceive it to be situationally beneficial than because they have no other alternative if they don't want to lose.
In fact this is a clear-cut nerf to marines who will almost certainly be at 100% armor a far less amount of the time. That's "more useful" to them? Perhaps this is a new way of using the term "useful" that I wasn't previously aware of.
Everything is about tradeoffs. If you are going to nerf marines with no armory welding, then GIVE them something to compensate for that. Free welders would fill that hole. Instead you want to nerf them and then give them the finger by saying they have to PAY to get welded up?
Let's be clear, there will be NO WAY in the game to get armor repaired for free. None. Every time a marine wants to repair their armor it will cost p-res. Will aliens be paying a similar cost to repair armor? No.
That's a big fat nerf.
What next? Remove the 'auto tool' and require marines to have a welder to BUILD ANYTHING?
Need to have a welder to repair power nodes too? I can picture it now...
"Power is down in Operations, quick, weld up the power node!"
"I don't have a welder."
"Power is down, I can't buy a welder."
"Well I can't drop welders without power."
"..."
"gg"
That seems to be the way we're going.
Fun? How is this fun? More mindless busy work where marines spend even MORE time standing around pressing M1? Don't they do that enough already compared to aliens? We want to make them do MORE of that? I can handle marines needing to weld marines, but making them pay for something as basic as getting 'healed' is so counter-intuitive that it's beyond words.
Sorry, I'll respectfully disagree on the assertion that standing around welding people is 'fun', but what makes it ten times worse is that you make people choose between things that are REALLY fun (like new weapons, a jetpack or an EXO etc) and welders. Now they need to spend ~20 res a game on welders instead of buying that shottie - or the EXO, since they don't have enough res to buy it.
Now they spend res on something that doesn't benefit them personally at ALL in any way, shape or form - with no guarantee that they will even get to use it before they die and their 5 p-res welder is sitting on the ground across the map - forcing them to buy another one.
Say what you will about the mechanic, but please don't insult my intelligence by suggesting that players will find it "fun" to be paying 5 res for welders to do what they got for free before.
Because it involves no meaningful decision-making and no difficult tasks. These are essential elements of gameplay. Welding is not gameplay, it's merely activity. AKA "busywork".
Now, that's not entirely true. As I pointed out in this comment, because welding takes time and time is a valuable resource, deciding whether or not to weld is a meaningful decision. Or rather, it can be, in some cases. But in most cases it's not all that hard of a decision, and unfortunately in every case the result of the decision is to spend X amount of time doing nothing, which isn't very fun.
Welders cost kinda hurts. A team with level 2 armor and welders is an awesome hitsquad though. Even better - a MAC following them. Obstructing the aliens and automatically welding marines. It's great.
I definitely see the benefits of not running back to base to heal and forward armories are pretty damn powerful, but hell's sake. It's just not fun buying that welder and repairing your mates, only to get wiped out and losing that 5 res.
Maybe if researching welders would cost more but give you a welder when you spawn? Like a 25 res upgrade...
Also, starting off with Welders researched.
This would be a big buff to Arcs and Exos though, if everyone has welders.
Armories healing Armor is just right. Aliens have a small autoreg, a Regenerationupgrade and Crags, which also heals Armor.
Really dont get it, why this feature should be removed.
I think you're overstating your case.
Self-welding would not eliminate all the delays, as it will still take time to actually do the welding. It would eliminate the delay in walking over to the person that needs welding, but how significant is that delay, relative to the time spent actually doing the welding?
Self-welding would also eliminate the delay in attracting the attention of someone who could weld you, but based on other comments here that delay is probably unwanted - people are asking for better visual indications of who has a welder so that instead of saying "Hey, can somebody weld me please?" the welders and weldees can more quickly find each other.
You're right that self-welding would eliminate clumping. However, this is only going to be the case if everyone buys a welder. As long as welders aren't free, smart teams will only carry a few of them and will trade off the tactical disadvantage of clumping for the strategic advantage of saving res.
Perhaps self-welding should be possible, but less effective than buddy-welding. Maybe it takes 50% longer, or requires you to stare at the floor so that your tactical awareness is hampered. This would preserve the selfish incentive for people to buy welders (because they could weld themselves whenever they needed it) while also preserving the incentive to weld your buddy (because it will heal them faster than they could heal themselves, which helps the team). It would also preserve the tactical disadvantage in welding, so that getting hurt but not killed is still a significant impediment.
* less life expectancy without welders. As welders are now a personal investment, it takes more comm dedication to drop some aswell, swamping the comm who already is busy enought. (unlike the kham).
This requires more cooperation from the marines saying who is going to save for weapons, who will grab a welder etc. While in essence al up to this point is good for teamplay, again the kharaa team does not have this requirement. So we are increasing a teamplay need on marines, who are already swamped on this issue, and do little to reproduce the same need on kharaa.
NS1 had some other choices making it less problematic to run around without armor.
* Bigger maps, so you were less expected to meet someone. Aliens had to defend there fatties & RTs a lot more as it took res to gorge and more to drop a rt.
* Your fades had no shadowstep so essentially needed blink to 'dodge'. I love shadowstep both as marine and alien, but it allows for far far better ambush tactics. You will all probably remember focus shredded marines with a armor disadvantage, because it also supported the ambush tactics in essence. But focus was a dedicated upgrade on a weak upgrade tech tree.
* mines stacked & could be placed on infestation, so they could be used a lot more for protection around your moving marine squad. Any skulk hitting a mine was not chomping a marine without armor.
* lerk had either bite or spikes depending on NS1 version, but in most not both, thus providing less ways to take out a armorless marine.
* a big one, but nothing else repaired armor. People were used to welders or nothing. These days, people are NOT used to the mechanic of having no armor repair except welders. Changing this now will cause confusion and takes a lot of pug wipes before they will learn, most likely.
So in essence I am for the idea to let welders and macs repair armor, and nothing else, but we have to fix the problems first. With current upgrades, values and tech, marines will get shredded.
This. This this this this this etc this. Well said.
The difference?
It's my CHOICE to play a support role. The game doesn't force me to do it.
In TF2 if there is no medic, people are able to fully heal up with a medkit. While having a medic can be beneficial, the game is such so that no one is made inherently weaker by NOT having a medic. In NS2, if I take a dual-mini and park myself in main base on defence while the team assaults a hive, (to prevent anyone from pressing the "I win" power button) while it's not as fun as being on the front line, I'm willing to make that sacrifice. It's my CHOICE to take that 75 p-res and sit doing nothing with it. It's my CHOICE to 'take one for the team' and do the boring job if it gets us a win.
Respectfully, making people pay for welders is taking away that choice for support roles. It's like saying "you're going to play a support role whether you like it or not - and if you don't then your team will be weaker as a result."
Free welders give people the CHOICE as to how they play, since everyone will have one. It costs nothing to whip out a free welder and give someone a weld. Welders that cost money take away that choice. Instead it forces people to spend money on 'support role' tools when they don't want to - since refusing to do so only weakens the team.
We can't have it both ways here.
nothing forces you to weld it, but it won't help your chances of winning. this is the same case as it would be with no-armory-armor.
currently nothing forces you to weld each other because the comm might drop a forward armory. or he might not. you are still relying on your teammate (comm) to provide a method of healing armor. the change would only shift it from the comm to your other teammates.
or are you suggesting that welding buildings is a boring mechanic and needs to go away in favor of self-regenerating buildings?
I think this is a good idea that's also worth testing out (in addition to testing the current implementation for whether Savant's fears prove to be founded or not).
On my way home now so hopefully I'll be able to test the mod myself in about 3h (yeah, I have a horrible commute).
Roo
The welders should cost Pres and not less of it either. You can share a welder in a group and when that player dies it's available for the group to retrieve. Or take 2 so you don't have to toss the welder to each other. I hate to throw out the cliche that gamers these days want things on a silver platter but this is the case here. No, you shouldn't be able to rambo heal yourself. Yes, choosing to help your team should be a choice with consequence.
I'm not completely opposed to compromise however, I think the AA healing armor is a fine idea. At 20 additional res and research time to upgrade you're making a clear strategic decision with obvious consequences. They are not very strong and a 30 res blow is not insignificant. It means that buying welders is the generally better choice but in some situations going AA to support the line is validated.
In one line you say that spending pres for the team is choice and in the next you say it's taking away choice. I happen to agree with the former, that spending res is a choice made more valuable by consequence, while it would appear that you don't even agree with yourself.
Refusing to buy a welder does weaken the team, but there's still a choice. Refusing to buy one also benefits the team by saving res, which may be needed to buy a shotgun or mines, which will benefit the team.
It's by no means mandatory for everyone to carry a welder, even if armories no longer repair. One or two welders per strike force would be adequate in most situations. People who don't want to play support roles don't have to carry welders and don't have to pay res to perform a role they don't want to do.
What expensive welders vs. free welders does is make the choice an interesting choice. If they're free, then everyone gets welders, and people who want to weld will weld and people who don't want to weld will get a welder anyway "just in case". If they cost, then only people who REALLY DO want to weld will get them, and people will have to think twice about whether or not they should buy one. Do we have enough on the team already? Am I better off getting a welder or saving up for a shotgun? Is the team better off?
Life isn't fair. Natural Selection is a struggle for the survival of the fittest. Which will win? The race that builds superior tools due to technology, or the race that has superior physical traits due to genetic alteration?
Welding buildings is a boring mechanic. But it needs to stay, because (as I mentioned here and here) the man-seconds spent welding buildings are a valuable resource and thus an important element of the strategic gameplay.