Well good thing we are talking about healing and not picking up weapons, I cant pick up exos either so its not an issue, and bile bomb destroys weapons now, and they only last a short time.
but picking up a dropped weapon makes sense picking up a dead body is just outright stupid and you should feel bad for even saying that.
but you should try and stay on topic and talk about the balance of armor healing not dropped weapons
Well no shit we're talking about healing. I'm saying the argument makes 0 sense to say that aliens shouldn't have access to hive/crag healing because marines can't repair armor at an armory.
it's an ASYMMETRIC game.
I'm a little tired of asymmetry being thrown out as the trump card for everything regarding balance. Both sides need a similar capability to, say, heal up to full health+armor. Balance would suggest that this capability be more or less equal in difficulty.
But that's not really even how I see the argument.
The argument was: If forcing marines to weld to heal armor promotes teamwork, and promoting teamwork is good, then why wouldn't you want to force the aliens to heal armor via gorges, since that would also promote teamwork.
But... but... this means that there would be more symmetric levels in the requirement of teamwork and this is an asymmetric game so that's bad. Or something.
I don't want each side to be the same. I really don't. But I do want things to be balanced.
Things can be different in particulars and be similar in the abstract.
I'm a little tired of asymmetry being thrown out as the trump card for everything regarding balance. Both sides need a similar capability to, say, heal up to full health+armor. Balance would suggest that this capability be more or less equal in difficulty.
But that's not really even how I see the argument.
The argument was: If forcing marines to weld to heal armor promotes teamwork, and promoting teamwork is good, then why wouldn't you want to force the aliens to heal armor via gorges, since that would also promote teamwork.
But... but... this means that there would be more symmetric levels in the requirement of teamwork and this is an asymmetric game so that's bad. Or something.
I don't want each side to be the same. I really don't. But I do want things to be balanced.
Things can be different in particulars and be similar in the abstract.
Your assertion is flawed and unsubstantiated in that
1) A gorge moves more slowly than every other life-form, whereas a welder marine can keep pace. A player going gorge effectively reduces the DPS of the alien group, whereas a welder marine can contribute 100% dps just as any other marine. Should we make welder marines walk 33% slower, and lose the ability to shoot his gun?
2) Promoting teamwork is only one goal. Many others have gone over the gameplay and balance benefits. There are other ways to promote teamwork on the alien side.
3) You provided no evidence that armory-not-healing would cause an imbalance, and furthermore that it would cause an imbalance due to alien regeneration.
4) In fact, there is plenty of counter-evidence based on playing the builds where no-armory-armor was true (and playing ns1, where this was also the case) that it has negligible impact on gameplay balance.
I am 100% for armory changes. People need to learn how to buy welders and use them in the field. It is essential to winning as marines. The auto heal armory stuff is Halo mechanics that reward camping, and unrewards the alien player for using his skill to do damage to a marine... only to have it run away and heal.
It's a terrible mechanic that should have died with halo and COD MW
I remember this change during beta. I (and many others) absolutely loved it. There was real comradery with marines since you literally NEEDED eachother to stay alive. I hope this makes a comeback.
Well I tried the mod today, and I can confirm that my subjective, biased opinion was not proved wrong.
Opinions are never wrong, that's why they're called opinions.
I keep hearing people say how 'fun' it is, or how balanced it is on the test server. Yet I recall something else that was fun and balanced in NS2.
Patch 240.
We went from massive imbalance to perfect 50/50 win ratios and games that were fun again. Well, fun to some and not others. That's what this is all about, isn't it?
It would seem that fun and balance only matter if everyone has fun.
Personally I don't consider this a 'fun' mechanic. While I don't object to it, imho it doesn't add any fun to the game. It's just yet another things marines have to do that involves standing around pressing a key while they twiddle their thumbs. Yet despite this, I still don't object to the mechanic. It's the cost that sours me on this.
I really don't care if other things 'balance this out'. Like patch 240, despite perfect balance, many people found the game 'not fun'. The river of tears in the forum was drowning people left and right. People were saying their good-byes. But the game was balanced. The game was fun. Well the problem is that 'fun' is subjective.
I don't consider spending 5 p-res for welders 'fun' because armor repair is removed from the armory. If spending that res means I have less res for other toys, then no, it's not 'fun'. I could play it once or a hundred times and I will never be happy with that change since the NUMBERS don't change. I'm still wasting res on welders to HEAL, while on aliens I can spend my res on higher lifeforms and have fun.
It didn't matter to people how well patch 240 'played' or how well 'balanced' it was. QQ ruled the day, and patch 241 came with a reversal. Why should it be any different now?
Paying for welders *is not fun* if it means people have less res to pay for other toys. It's that simple. People seem to be using the word 'fun' a lot in this thread, perhaps they should understand that their idea of 'fun' is not the same as other people.
But PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE give the person you are welding some sort of indicator that they are being welded beyond the dubiously audible sound. Nothing is more annoying than having to chase after your teammates with your welder.
Well I tried the mod today, and I can confirm that my subjective, biased opinion was not proved wrong.
Opinions are never wrong, that's why they're called opinions.
I keep hearing people say how 'fun' it is, or how balanced it is on the test server. Yet I recall something else that was fun and balanced in NS2.
Patch 240.
We went from massive imbalance to perfect 50/50 win ratios and games that were fun again. Well, fun to some and not others. That's what this is all about, isn't it?
It would seem that fun and balance only matter if everyone has fun.
Personally I don't consider this a 'fun' mechanic. While I don't object to it, imho it doesn't add any fun to the game. It's just yet another things marines have to do that involves standing around pressing a key while they twiddle their thumbs. Yet despite this, I still don't object to the mechanic. It's the cost that sours me on this.
I really don't care if other things 'balance this out'. Like patch 240, despite perfect balance, many people found the game 'not fun'. The river of tears in the forum was drowning people left and right. People were saying their good-byes. But the game was balanced. The game was fun. Well the problem is that 'fun' is subjective.
I don't consider spending 5 p-res for welders 'fun' because armor repair is removed from the armory. If spending that res means I have less res for other toys, then no, it's not 'fun'. I could play it once or a hundred times and I will never be happy with that change since the NUMBERS don't change. I'm still wasting res on welders to HEAL, while on aliens I can spend my res on higher lifeforms and have fun.
It didn't matter to people how well patch 240 'played' or how well 'balanced' it was. QQ ruled the day, and patch 241 came with a reversal. Why should it be any different now?
Paying for welders *is not fun* if it means people have less res to pay for other toys. It's that simple. People seem to be using the word 'fun' a lot in this thread, perhaps they should understand that their idea of 'fun' is not the same as other people.
winning is fun, welding buildings is fine, it let's me look at the command map. welding other marines.would be fun, if it let's me win more.
Anyone who plays this game and thinks something like welding a team-mate is busy work should uninstall. I know, there are pub players out there who feel that way, and they shouldn't have bought the game.
Oh, so because I disagree with you I should quit?
WONDERFUL attitude and argument.
And to be clear it is the FORCED welding I have a problem with. You can weld your teammates all day long right now and more power to you. I never said to remove that.
No, because you want to play an FPS and not an RTS/FPS you should quit.
Yes welding or specifically introducing time sinks into a game plagued with time sinks is a hallmark of every great RTS game, I remember microing my medics in broodwar to heal...
I think they should roll this change out live within the week and let the public decide how much they enjoy the changes, I mean it's obvious lerks/fades near hives will be borderline OP but otherwise I can't see why the great unwashed won't enjoy buying 3-5 welders every game and spend an extra 5-10 seconds standing around in base waiting for someone to weld them. I know 3-5 people on my friends list said "Xao, do armouries not give armour anymore so I can buy more welders every game and go around and weld people, constantly get caught out by 2 hive aliens with 2 people welding 3 on an armoury LoS blocking each other, DUDE you've got to let me know when they implement this feature, I'll be back for sure".
I basically have this conversation everyday as a regular NS2 player with other people who left the game months ago. Normally it's brought around by all the reminiscing about the good old days of being able to weld yourself and self sustain a push and how casuals have ruined NS2 with armour giving armouries, do they not realise welding is an integral part of team work and game play to NS2? Do they not like having fun?
Normally it's brought around by all the reminiscing about the good old days of being able to weld yourself and self sustain a push and how casuals have ruined NS2 with armour giving armouries, do they not realise welding is an integral part of team work and game play to NS2? Do they not like having fun?
In NS1 there was time to weld. There wasn't even half as much combat then, as there is now in NS2. If you survived an attack, chances are you had a good minute or so until the next one came, so there was an opportunity to weld.
In NS2, chances are that in most cases you will need to perform welding mid combat, in much the same way that exos are welded at the moment. That doesn't sound very fun to me. Not least of all because you are going to be putting 50% of your bullets fired into the guy trying to weld you.
Normally it's brought around by all the reminiscing about the good old days of being able to weld yourself and self sustain a push and how casuals have ruined NS2 with armour giving armouries, do they not realise welding is an integral part of team work and game play to NS2? Do they not like having fun?
In NS1 there was time to weld. There wasn't even half as much combat then, as there is now in NS2. If you survived an attack, chances are you had a good minute or so until the next one came, so there was an opportunity to weld.
In NS2, chances are that in most cases you will need to perform welding mid combat, in much the same way that exos are welded at the moment. That doesn't sound very fun to me. Not least of all because you are going to be putting 50% of your bullets fired into the guy trying to weld you.
*Cough*
You might have missed the sarcasm dripping off his words. Regardless, your point is still valid.
This topic could cause a civil war I reckon; my how it has exploded!
As a proponent of removing armor repair from the armories I would like to say that the EXO's can only be healed by a welder, as we are well aware. Yet when they hit the battlefield you don't see people crying about purchasing a welder to help the team. This can be adopted to the same effect.
Welders are already used in competitive play to sustain pressure and naturally it will catch on in public play. It's like the pocket medic from TF2, as was noted in the original thread. You and your friend can Heavy/Demo and Medic and pretty much carry the team.
Numbers can be tweaked so don't dwell on them (armor upgrade/welder costs, etc). The question still remains is removing armory repair a boon or a burden to the game as whole. I would argue a boon for these reasons:
1) Marines will now be a touch more cautious knowing they cannot run back to an armory to be full life again (talking effective HP.) This has some similarities to when you evolve to a higher life-form, its always in the back of your mind: "Don't die." Now marines will think "try to take as little damage as possible." This causes marines to just play better, or at least try to. This would involve awareness, aim, and teamwork; all of which are great for the game.
2)Aliens can now play as they seem most natural, guerrilla style. Your spikes become a little more helpful, your fade becomes stronger, your hydras and gorge spit are now more dangerous than just annoying. This would give at least some perception of usefulness, especially in the eyes of new players, which is great for the game.
3)Welding can be a thing for people to do that don't necessarily want to be shooting for this round. I find gorge a welcome relief from skulking, why can't being the weld bitch fill the same role. I saw a lot of "class" threads when we went live, and while I don't expect classes to come about, we can create our own roles with the tools we have at hand. Whats that? Great for the game you say? yes.
Counter arguments are as follows: Pres sink, welders wreck cyst chains, what will I ever do with 100HP only.
As I said before, the Pres can be modified. Welders can just not damage cysts (especially if its made into a medigun knock-off!!!!!!11). And same thing you do with 100HP now, run back to something that repairs it, or just press on like a man.
I think there was more but it's late. Try to be civil...
Normally it's brought around by all the reminiscing about the good old days of being able to weld yourself and self sustain a push and how casuals have ruined NS2 with armour giving armouries, do they not realise welding is an integral part of team work and game play to NS2? Do they not like having fun?
In NS1 there was time to weld. There wasn't even half as much combat then, as there is now in NS2. If you survived an attack, chances are you had a good minute or so until the next one came, so there was an opportunity to weld.
In NS2, chances are that in most cases you will need to perform welding mid combat, in much the same way that exos are welded at the moment. That doesn't sound very fun to me. Not least of all because you are going to be putting 50% of your bullets fired into the guy trying to weld you.
*Cough*
You might have missed the sarcasm dripping off his words. Regardless, your point is still valid.
I thought it was just an elitist being elitist, but I guess if I didn't see the sarcasm maybe I'm just projecting.
Well good thing we are talking about healing and not picking up weapons, I cant pick up exos either so its not an issue, and bile bomb destroys weapons now, and they only last a short time.
but picking up a dropped weapon makes sense picking up a dead body is just outright stupid and you should feel bad for even saying that.
but you should try and stay on topic and talk about the balance of armor healing not dropped weapons
Well no shit we're talking about healing. I'm saying the argument makes 0 sense to say that aliens shouldn't have access to hive/crag healing because marines can't repair armor at an armory.
it's an ASYMMETRIC game.
I'm a little tired of asymmetry being thrown out as the trump card for everything regarding balance. Both sides need a similar capability to, say, heal up to full health+armor. Balance would suggest that this capability be more or less equal in difficulty.
But that's not really even how I see the argument.
The argument was: If forcing marines to weld to heal armor promotes teamwork, and promoting teamwork is good, then why wouldn't you want to force the aliens to heal armor via gorges, since that would also promote teamwork.
But... but... this means that there would be more symmetric levels in the requirement of teamwork and this is an asymmetric game so that's bad. Or something.
I don't want each side to be the same. I really don't. But I do want things to be balanced.
Things can be different in particulars and be similar in the abstract.
It's one of the core thematic differences between the teams. Marines are more squad oriented while aliens are more individualistic. Besides, going Gorge is obviously not comparable to picking up a welder as a marine for any number of reasons. It's not reasonable to expect every skulk pack to have an accompanying Gorge, but every marine pack could certainly have at least one welder.
In NS2, chances are that in most cases you will need to perform welding mid combat, in much the same way that exos are welded at the moment. That doesn't sound very fun to me.
Oh come now... Are you telling me that people don't like standing around with a welder out looking at the rear end of an EXO for 5 minutes at a time while the battles rage? Surely that must be an exciting tactic, just as exciting as standing around welding a power node. Or an extractor. Or a command chair. This game is far too stressful, we need these breaks in the action to unwind and stand around.
As a proponent of removing armor repair from the armories I would like to say that the EXO's can only be healed by a welder, as we are well aware. Yet when they hit the battlefield you don't see people crying about purchasing a welder to help the team. This can be adopted to the same effect.
Apples and oranges for a number of reasons. First, when you have EXOs on the field you can usually afford to spare res for an OCCASIONAL welder. That's not the problem. No one is saying that - right now - buying an occasional welder is a hardship.
When a marine has 20 res in the early/mid game, if he is forced to choose between buying a shottie and buying a welder, then you have just weakened the marine team without an alien laying a hand on him. He MUST buy the welder. Buying a shottie is no good if you die with ease - buh-bye 20 res. So instead he is now not as great a threat as he would have been. GG balance. The skulk-killing-shottie is too expensive if you want to buy a welder.
However, this still ignores the fact that buying welders is NOT fun. No one buys a welder because they WANT to buy a welder. They buy it out of necessity. What this change proposes is to make buying welders MANDATORY. You are taking the choice out of the player's hands. How is that fun? Why not let the player decide how to spend his resources instead of 'experts' deciding how to spend it for him. Dictating a player's playstyle is never fun at the best of times.
Like I said before. An average 8v8 pub game will see ~100 marines die. If they go through 20 welders, then they have lost the equivalent of 2 railgun EXOs. This is fun? People are buying welders instead of EXOs? What game are people playing here anyway? Welder warz?
I can tolerate the mechanic of removing armor repair from the armory. I may not like it, but I can get on board with it. If welders are free then the impact won't be too negative. Yeah marines will die more often, but it's not like they aren't dying more often now anyway. Overall the impact shouldn't be that bad for that mechanic alone.
The cost is a killer though. Honestly I can't stress it enough. You can't start sucking res out of the p-res pool for marines and say "Hey it's cool" thinking it won't impact the game or the fun people will have playing the game.
Try thinking about the average Joe here. Do we really think he will find buying welders fun? He never played NS1, he doesn't have any nostalgia for the 'good old days'. He just wants to play a game with some cool weapons. He's not here to spend his game welding stuff.
That's just not fun, and it's about time people began to realize that.
Maybe someone can refresh my memory, but in NS1 I don't recall marines asking for welders early or even early-mid game for marine welds. The only time welders were dropped was when marines were getting hit hard and RTs/Base was getting damaged. After they were dropped and if the marine survived, then maybe marines armor was welded after structures as an afterthought/kindness. Was the "ask the commander to drop welders to repair marine armor" common in competitive/normal games? Unless there was a vital objective, my memories of when I lost armor was to find a convenient pit or alien stronghold to die on so I was ready for the next push. Didn't want to waste the Marine pool's res or the commander's attention.
I'm a little tired of asymmetry being thrown out as the trump card for everything regarding balance. Both sides need a similar capability to, say, heal up to full health+armor. Balance would suggest that this capability be more or less equal in difficulty.
But that's not really even how I see the argument.
The argument was: If forcing marines to weld to heal armor promotes teamwork, and promoting teamwork is good, then why wouldn't you want to force the aliens to heal armor via gorges, since that would also promote teamwork.
But... but... this means that there would be more symmetric levels in the requirement of teamwork and this is an asymmetric game so that's bad. Or something.
I don't want each side to be the same. I really don't. But I do want things to be balanced.
Things can be different in particulars and be similar in the abstract.
Your assertion is flawed and unsubstantiated in that
1) A gorge moves more slowly than every other life-form, whereas a welder marine can keep pace. A player going gorge effectively reduces the DPS of the alien group, whereas a welder marine can contribute 100% dps just as any other marine. Should we make welder marines walk 33% slower, and lose the ability to shoot his gun?
2) Promoting teamwork is only one goal. Many others have gone over the gameplay and balance benefits. There are other ways to promote teamwork on the alien side.
3) You provided no evidence that armory-not-healing would cause an imbalance, and furthermore that it would cause an imbalance due to alien regeneration.
4) In fact, there is plenty of counter-evidence based on playing the builds where no-armory-armor was true (and playing ns1, where this was also the case) that it has negligible impact on gameplay balance.
1. So what? ASYMMETRY IS GOOD!!!
2. So? The more teamwork the better. Just because there's other options doesn't mean we should rule out this one.
3. So? We're just talking about fostering alien teamwork.
4. If it has a negligible impact, why force the busy work?
I guess asymmetry is good unless it's inconvenient to your argument. I rest my case, your honor.
2)Aliens can now play as they seem most natural, guerrilla style. Your spikes become a little more helpful, your fade becomes stronger, your hydras and gorge spit are now more dangerous than just annoying. This would give at least some perception of usefulness, especially in the eyes of new players, which is great for the game.
Yeah, bottom line: It's a marine nerf when they really don't need one. Aliens are already pretty good at hit and run. I'm not sure we need stronger fades or lurks.
The 240 release that Aliens shed massive tears over was actually damn near 50/50, sample size 25k games (official stats). The skulk fix will no doubt skew it back in favor of Aliens.
Well good thing we are talking about healing and not picking up weapons, I cant pick up exos either so its not an issue, and bile bomb destroys weapons now, and they only last a short time.
but picking up a dropped weapon makes sense picking up a dead body is just outright stupid and you should feel bad for even saying that.
but you should try and stay on topic and talk about the balance of armor healing not dropped weapons
Well no shit we're talking about healing. I'm saying the argument makes 0 sense to say that aliens shouldn't have access to hive/crag healing because marines can't repair armor at an armory.
it's an ASYMMETRIC game.
I'm a little tired of asymmetry being thrown out as the trump card for everything regarding balance. Both sides need a similar capability to, say, heal up to full health+armor. Balance would suggest that this capability be more or less equal in difficulty.
But that's not really even how I see the argument.
The argument was: If forcing marines to weld to heal armor promotes teamwork, and promoting teamwork is good, then why wouldn't you want to force the aliens to heal armor via gorges, since that would also promote teamwork.
But... but... this means that there would be more symmetric levels in the requirement of teamwork and this is an asymmetric game so that's bad. Or something.
I don't want each side to be the same. I really don't. But I do want things to be balanced.
Things can be different in particulars and be similar in the abstract.
It's one of the core thematic differences between the teams. Marines are more squad oriented while aliens are more individualistic. Besides, going Gorge is obviously not comparable to picking up a welder as a marine for any number of reasons. It's not reasonable to expect every skulk pack to have an accompanying Gorge, but every marine pack could certainly have at least one welder.
I don't really think it's so obvious that you can just state it. Why not? I see packs of aliens being healed by Gorges all the time. Certainly I can make the same arguments for it that you are making for forced marine welding, eg: promotes teamwork, healer class importance, added incentive to avoid damage, players already doing it, etc etc.
Basically what I hear from a lot of you guys is that busywork is OK for marines, but not OK for aliens. I'm not sure why that is, really. I don't think it's in the interest of balance.
Using welders in the field keeps your push strong for longer. This helps you keep forward momentum which helps you keep more res, which helps you get upgrades and toys SOONER.
If more people bought welders and used them sensibly, I'm convinced that marines could win more than they currently do.
People are also massively overestimating how long it takes to weld teammates.
Finally, if you're always stopping to weld teammates, rather than welding on the move, you're just not doing it right. I'm on my phone now so I can't dig out Tane's document about marine game play, but have a search on these forums for my thread about consistency, someone linked to that document there and it's well worth a read to pick up tips and tricks to keep you alive and effective as a marine.
Play the mod for a while. If you're dead against this change because you *think* it won't work or it won't be fun, then you have a vested interest in making sure that those mechanics which, upon testing you find you don't like, don't make it into the official game.
You can theory craft about numbers here all you like, but short of testing it in game, you have NO CLUE how it actually works in practice. There are far too many factors to take into consideration when it comes to theory crafting something like this. Simply saying it is not fun is pointless.
I will point out here that in the first marine game I played in the mod, despite being ridiculously far behind the aliens for must of it (we didn't attack enough at the beginning), we actually managed to field 3 exos, a bunch of jetpacks, grenades of course shotties and so on. We spent a little more on average on welders but it BARELY impacted economically. It might be only n = 1 but that's the result so far. I disagree with your assertion that this change will make the game unfun in and of itself; backed up with some evidence already, I suggest that the benefits of people learning how to use welders effectively (which they should be doing right now!) will outweigh the marginal cost to the team of one or two welders from p.res every so often.
I suggest that the benefits of people learning how to use welders effectively (which they should be doing right now!) will outweigh the marginal cost to the team of one or two welders from p.res every so often.
You can't have it both ways. If people are hardly using welders now in the test - as you claim - then it sounds to me like free welders would have no impact at all. Right? Why make the change otherwise? For the hell of it? Com'on now, neither of us is naive here. This is a marine nerf, plain and simple. Let's call a spade a spade. Why try and sugarcoat it? If it's not a nerf, give the marines free welders to compensate.
As for testing this, what is there to test? I know how a welder works, I know how to weld a teammate, and I know how to click 'buy welder' at an armory. Any test in a structured environment is pointless since it doesn't represent the 99.9% of games that will be played on public servers. You can't take res out of marine pockets and not suck the fun out of it.
BUYING WELDERS IS NOT FUN. Find me someone who thinks buying welders is fun. Please. They probably get a kick out of bouncing a red rubber ball too. At best a person may think buying a welder is necessary, but I defy you to tell me that someone finds spending res on welders more fun than spending it on *any* other marine upgrade.
Like I said, if this is such an innocuous change, give the marines free welders. If they make so little difference - as you claim - then what's the big deal making them stock marine equipment? The problem here is that this is a trap question. If welders are a 'marginal cost' - as you claim - then given them away. It will have no impact on gameplay. You refuse to accede this since you know that the cost WILL make a difference. You know it WILL have an impact.
You can't have it both ways. If the cost makes no difference to gameplay, then give marines free welders. At least this way you don't suck fun out of the game. Forcing people to buy welders just to heal up isn't fun.
Edit: One last thought. You've tried it your way, why not suggest to Sewlek to try the opposite? Put welders in slot 4 as stock marine equipment and try it out. Why not? Nothing to lose right? If this is such an innocuous change, why not err on the side of fun and give out welders to see how it plays?
The disconnect comes from the fact that they are planning to slap an unnecessary pres cost on marines and forcing mechanics just because a certain play style for marines apparently needs to be enforced. Allowing support players a role? They could already do that. Right now I see rarely any of those when needed even with armories healing armor and no one really wants to weld up bases or exos as it is in pubs. Teamwork? Good players already use that this will only weaken the marine pubs.
I see a few people speak about stopping marine getting shotties + jps but no one mention how aliens will have their lifeform explosion balanced. So now aliens also get pres when dead AND have no pres sink like this balance mod suggests for marines?
How about letting Gorge heal alien armor only like a few of us suggest. I mean it's alright because now you get pres when dead, it "encourages" communication and teamwork planning ambushes rather than just letting aliens rambo in alone once healed to full armor. It will not allow aliens to just go to the nearest crag, hive, or rely on regeneration because waiting to heal or walking back to the hive just slows down game play and wastes time from their front line guerrilla warfare tactics. Now Gorges will feel more like supporters and experience more "enjoyable" gameplay as aliens will have to come to them for armor healing instead of walking past them to the nearest healing station.
How do you expect to convince anyone otherwise by forcing welders for 5 pres and try to make it more agreeable by using MACS that are also 5 pres and go down extremely fast. Plus macs+robotics factory are just are another cost on the team res pool of marines early on in addition to increased armor/weapon research cost as well as giving the com a harder time while the kham just lays back as usual. Is the point of all this to stop marine expansion? Limit what marines can buy and make a welder mandatory? Because it will not be helping marine expansion or make the game play more enjoyable for pubs in general.
In addition the balance of the aliens remains to be seen after the skulk fix and you still have not addressed how marines will still hump the armories for health. You think removing armor healing will stop people from humping it? Now when they have less than full hp they will feel vulnerable and run back to base for more health and wait for welders refusing to move froward until full armor is restored especially when they are using gear like jetpack+sg.
Also this is not NS1 it's NS2. No need to try to make everything the same. You cannot expect aliens to be individualistic and expect skulks/fades/lerks to solo an entire decent marine squad. Jeeze in 240 Archaea was a pretty good alien team because they made use of teamwork by sticking together and ambushing/moving properly and not getting ripped apart by marines individually. So why not make Gorge part of this fantastic teamwork dynamic you guys are trying to make mandatory?
In the end I get the feeling Sewlek wants to try this armory change on a massive scale one way or another as it is how he envisions marines players SHOULD be playing not by choice but by necessity. Besides if marines are losing more games now due to 241, then it will simply wait to be brought up later on...so yea go ahead and try it. I am interested to see in the NS2's playerbase response outside of this forum. You know the 1-2k people who consistently play this game. If it works out then I cannot really say much to that.
Welders are already bought yet while they cost 5 p-res.
If armories don't repair armor, welders will get even more useful.
It makes no sense to increase the usefulness of something AND decrease the cost.
You're not increasing the usefullness of something, you are decreasing the usefulness of the armory, and providing no benefit in return. Is the armory getting buffed somehow? No? [...] That's "more useful" to them? Perhaps this is a new way of using the term "useful" that I wasn't previously aware of.
Please read what I wrote before starting to stir. It's only 3 sentences.
The usefulness of the welder gets increased (not that of the armory). Right now, you have 3 ways to regain armor, one of them is incredibly easy and effective. This devalues the welders usefulness for armor repairing. You wouldn't buy one to repair armor. You buy one to repair buildings. It is easier to repair armor at the armory. But if this option doesn't exist anymore, the welder will be used more often to repair armor. (= usefulness increased) Or if you are going on semantics here, I will use another word:
With this change it is more desirable to have a welder. (increased demand)
It makes no sense to decrease the price of something when it will be bought even more often.
The only argument I see fit, is that the balance could be a problem, because marines are investing more p-res in early game now. But as I also wrote already, balance can be achieved by tweaks on multiple things. The first and most important thing of a change has to be the fun-aspect. And while some people don't think it is fun to create more of an incentive to weld each other, others do. I can understand that there are different opinions, because fun is a subjective thing. But the balance argument doesn't change this in anyway.
The memories of "kill myself so I'll get my armor back" ring a bell.
This a 100 times !
I dont think removing the armor healing completely is necessary. I'm pretty sure Flayra's idea behind armor healing was to stop this silly behaviour : if I dont leave base with 100% armor i'd rather /kill and respawn with full armor
Before completely removing it you should experiment new ideas
There are plenty ( reduce healing rate, make it only available for advanced armories, make it only available for armories within a tech point with a CC and bla bla bla ).
I would also add that if you want to remove it completely > you should remove the armor from spawn right away ( to not encourage self /kill )
The disconnect comes from the fact that they are planning to slap an unnecessary pres cost on marines and forcing mechanics just because a certain play style for marines apparently needs to be enforced. Allowing support players a role? They could already do that. Right now I see rarely any of those when needed even with armories healing armor and no one really wants to weld up bases or exos as it is in pubs. Teamwork? Good players already use that this will only weaken the marine pubs.
I see a few people speak about stopping marine getting shotties + jps but no one mention how aliens will have their lifeform explosion balanced. So now aliens also get pres when dead AND have no pres sink like this balance mod suggests for marines?
How about letting Gorge heal alien armor only like a few of us suggest. I mean it's alright because now you get pres when dead, it "encourages" communication and teamwork planning ambushes rather than just letting aliens rambo in alone once healed to full armor. It will not allow aliens to just go to the nearest crag, hive, or rely on regeneration because waiting to heal or walking back to the hive just slows down game play and wastes time from their front line guerrilla warfare tactics. Now Gorges will feel more like supporters and experience more "enjoyable" gameplay as aliens will have to come to them for armor healing instead of walking past them to the nearest healing station.
How do you expect to convince anyone otherwise by forcing welders for 5 pres and try to make it more agreeable by using MACS that are also 5 pres and go down extremely fast. Plus macs+robotics factory are just are another cost on the team res pool of marines early on in addition to increased armor/weapon research cost as well as giving the com a harder time while the kham just lays back as usual. Is the point of all this to stop marine expansion? Limit what marines can buy and make a welder mandatory? Because it will not be helping marine expansion or make the game play more enjoyable for pubs in general.
In addition the balance of the aliens remains to be seen after the skulk fix and you still have not addressed how marines will still hump the armories for health. You think removing armor healing will stop people from humping it? Now when they have less than full hp they will feel vulnerable and run back to base for more health and wait for welders refusing to move froward until full armor is restored especially when they are using gear like jetpack+sg.
Also this is not NS1 it's NS2. No need to try to make everything the same. You cannot expect aliens to be individualistic and expect skulks/fades/lerks to solo an entire decent marine squad. Jeeze in 240 Archaea was a pretty good alien team because they made use of teamwork by sticking together and ambushing/moving properly and not getting ripped apart by marines individually. So why not make Gorge part of this fantastic teamwork dynamic you guys are trying to make mandatory?
In the end I get the feeling Sewlek wants to try this armory change on a massive scale one way or another as it is how he envisions marines players SHOULD be playing not by choice but by necessity. Besides if marines are losing more games now due to 241, then it will simply wait to be brought up later on...so yea go ahead and try it. I am interested to see in the NS2's playerbase response outside of this forum. You know the 1-2k people who consistently play this game. If it works out then I cannot really say much to that.
assuming you've been following this thread since the beginning, i think you've missed some key points.
1. the extra pres cost for marines could be compensated somewhat by the reworked alien upgrade structure.
2. the extra pres cost for marines is being over-stated. you don't need to spend 5pres every life, you can quite easily share a single welder - one guy repairs all then gives it to another guy who repairs him back.
3. if welding isn't working efficiently; the commander can use mac's as a contingency (instead of the armory).
i was against the change before, mainly because it didn't seem right to only have a single method to repair armour. especially when that method could interfere with your playing style.
everyone must appreciate the detriment of forward armory sieges, and with the change at least you'd need either mac's or welder(s) to complete an 'armory contain'.
on top of that, mac's are awesome and what better way to make them a staple unit? right now they're almost exclusively a superfluous tres sink for fat cat commanders.
1. So what? ASYMMETRY IS GOOD!!!
2. So? The more teamwork the better. Just because there's other options doesn't mean we should rule out this one.
3. So? We're just talking about fostering alien teamwork.
4. If it has a negligible impact, why force the busy work?
I guess asymmetry is good unless it's inconvenient to your argument. I rest my case, your honor.
1) Yes it is. However, you are equating asymmetry between a fundamental game mechanic and forcing the alien team to always have an evolved life-form. Your logic is flawed because the play styles of aliens and marines are completely different, therefore forcing "similar teamwork" or whatever has no bearing on the game. The point of asymmetry is to have differing playstyles on each side.
2) Another unsubstantiated claim. Going to a gorge to heal is more busy work than going to a marine - Skulks often have to cross the entire map to get to where a gorge is, whereas your welder-buddy is usually right next to you, or dead. This would introduce real "busy work" instead of welding each other.
3) No one is talking about that except you.
4) Only you view it as busy work without actually playing the game. I promise you that in-game it does not feel like busywork.
The point is, you have no clue what you're talking about. Why don't you actually play the changes. Or if you don't want alien healing make a mod and test it out. I've played the changes and there is absolutely 0 sense to any of the objections that people are fielding.
Apples and oranges for a number of reasons. First, when you have EXOs on the field you can usually afford to spare res for an OCCASIONAL welder. That's not the problem. No one is saying that - right now - buying an occasional welder is a hardship.
When a marine has 20 res in the early/mid game, if he is forced to choose between buying a shottie and buying a welder, then you have just weakened the marine team without an alien laying a hand on him. He MUST buy the welder. Buying a shottie is no good if you die with ease - buh-bye 20 res. So instead he is now not as great a threat as he would have been. GG balance. The skulk-killing-shottie is too expensive if you want to buy a welder.
However, this still ignores the fact that buying welders is NOT fun. No one buys a welder because they WANT to buy a welder. They buy it out of necessity. What this change proposes is to make buying welders MANDATORY. You are taking the choice out of the player's hands. How is that fun? Why not let the player decide how to spend his resources instead of 'experts' deciding how to spend it for him. Dictating a player's playstyle is never fun at the best of times.
I think mandatory is a strong word, and like I said, the cost of a welder can be modified from 0-infinity. If you're worried about cost effectiveness look beyond that to when they ARE cost effective.
Within the realm of our topic it already applies to pressure teams in comp. matches. It already applies to pressure teams in pub matches. Your armor isn't going to be repaired because the commander has no interest in dropping an armory at this time/ever in that location. You most certainly aren't going to go back, you're in this to the death. Why not make your death more difficult to obtain?
You are also ignoring all the res the welder will help you maintain or save. I'm not saying it will make marines dominate the territorial game, but it sure cant hurt as much as running back to an armory does, in the scope of map control, or just staying at 0 armor.
Also, the lifeform explosion (another topic) versus the marines pres sink is inconsequential. How much res does 1 marine need? 20 for a shotgun? 10 for a jetpack? You start at 20 so now all you need is 10. Which really doesn't take that long. How about 15 for mines, and 15 for 3 welders over the course of the game. Now you're talking an average length game with a decent amount of RT's (I'm sure someone could do the math). I am also sure someone could do the math to account for 3 more welder purchases and still come out with a slightly positive or negative p.res income. Or you can lower the cost of other equipment to account for it.
Like I said, the numbers can be tweaked.
@bobinou No marine that is holding a key location, full armor or not, is going to kill themselves and sacrifice the map control. Sometimes the mere presence of a marine is good enough. The perception of strength in an area. That's where strategy comes in.
Comments
I'm a little tired of asymmetry being thrown out as the trump card for everything regarding balance. Both sides need a similar capability to, say, heal up to full health+armor. Balance would suggest that this capability be more or less equal in difficulty.
But that's not really even how I see the argument.
The argument was: If forcing marines to weld to heal armor promotes teamwork, and promoting teamwork is good, then why wouldn't you want to force the aliens to heal armor via gorges, since that would also promote teamwork.
But... but... this means that there would be more symmetric levels in the requirement of teamwork and this is an asymmetric game so that's bad. Or something.
I don't want each side to be the same. I really don't. But I do want things to be balanced.
Things can be different in particulars and be similar in the abstract.
Your assertion is flawed and unsubstantiated in that
1) A gorge moves more slowly than every other life-form, whereas a welder marine can keep pace. A player going gorge effectively reduces the DPS of the alien group, whereas a welder marine can contribute 100% dps just as any other marine. Should we make welder marines walk 33% slower, and lose the ability to shoot his gun?
2) Promoting teamwork is only one goal. Many others have gone over the gameplay and balance benefits. There are other ways to promote teamwork on the alien side.
3) You provided no evidence that armory-not-healing would cause an imbalance, and furthermore that it would cause an imbalance due to alien regeneration.
4) In fact, there is plenty of counter-evidence based on playing the builds where no-armory-armor was true (and playing ns1, where this was also the case) that it has negligible impact on gameplay balance.
It's a terrible mechanic that should have died with halo and COD MW
I keep hearing people say how 'fun' it is, or how balanced it is on the test server. Yet I recall something else that was fun and balanced in NS2.
Patch 240.
We went from massive imbalance to perfect 50/50 win ratios and games that were fun again. Well, fun to some and not others. That's what this is all about, isn't it?
It would seem that fun and balance only matter if everyone has fun.
Personally I don't consider this a 'fun' mechanic. While I don't object to it, imho it doesn't add any fun to the game. It's just yet another things marines have to do that involves standing around pressing a key while they twiddle their thumbs. Yet despite this, I still don't object to the mechanic. It's the cost that sours me on this.
I really don't care if other things 'balance this out'. Like patch 240, despite perfect balance, many people found the game 'not fun'. The river of tears in the forum was drowning people left and right. People were saying their good-byes. But the game was balanced. The game was fun. Well the problem is that 'fun' is subjective.
I don't consider spending 5 p-res for welders 'fun' because armor repair is removed from the armory. If spending that res means I have less res for other toys, then no, it's not 'fun'. I could play it once or a hundred times and I will never be happy with that change since the NUMBERS don't change. I'm still wasting res on welders to HEAL, while on aliens I can spend my res on higher lifeforms and have fun.
It didn't matter to people how well patch 240 'played' or how well 'balanced' it was. QQ ruled the day, and patch 241 came with a reversal. Why should it be any different now?
Paying for welders *is not fun* if it means people have less res to pay for other toys. It's that simple. People seem to be using the word 'fun' a lot in this thread, perhaps they should understand that their idea of 'fun' is not the same as other people.
winning is fun, welding buildings is fine, it let's me look at the command map. welding other marines.would be fun, if it let's me win more.
Yes welding or specifically introducing time sinks into a game plagued with time sinks is a hallmark of every great RTS game, I remember microing my medics in broodwar to heal...
I think they should roll this change out live within the week and let the public decide how much they enjoy the changes, I mean it's obvious lerks/fades near hives will be borderline OP but otherwise I can't see why the great unwashed won't enjoy buying 3-5 welders every game and spend an extra 5-10 seconds standing around in base waiting for someone to weld them. I know 3-5 people on my friends list said "Xao, do armouries not give armour anymore so I can buy more welders every game and go around and weld people, constantly get caught out by 2 hive aliens with 2 people welding 3 on an armoury LoS blocking each other, DUDE you've got to let me know when they implement this feature, I'll be back for sure".
I basically have this conversation everyday as a regular NS2 player with other people who left the game months ago. Normally it's brought around by all the reminiscing about the good old days of being able to weld yourself and self sustain a push and how casuals have ruined NS2 with armour giving armouries, do they not realise welding is an integral part of team work and game play to NS2? Do they not like having fun?
In NS1 there was time to weld. There wasn't even half as much combat then, as there is now in NS2. If you survived an attack, chances are you had a good minute or so until the next one came, so there was an opportunity to weld.
In NS2, chances are that in most cases you will need to perform welding mid combat, in much the same way that exos are welded at the moment. That doesn't sound very fun to me. Not least of all because you are going to be putting 50% of your bullets fired into the guy trying to weld you.
*Cough*
You might have missed the sarcasm dripping off his words. Regardless, your point is still valid.
As a proponent of removing armor repair from the armories I would like to say that the EXO's can only be healed by a welder, as we are well aware. Yet when they hit the battlefield you don't see people crying about purchasing a welder to help the team. This can be adopted to the same effect.
Welders are already used in competitive play to sustain pressure and naturally it will catch on in public play. It's like the pocket medic from TF2, as was noted in the original thread. You and your friend can Heavy/Demo and Medic and pretty much carry the team.
Numbers can be tweaked so don't dwell on them (armor upgrade/welder costs, etc). The question still remains is removing armory repair a boon or a burden to the game as whole. I would argue a boon for these reasons:
1) Marines will now be a touch more cautious knowing they cannot run back to an armory to be full life again (talking effective HP.) This has some similarities to when you evolve to a higher life-form, its always in the back of your mind: "Don't die." Now marines will think "try to take as little damage as possible." This causes marines to just play better, or at least try to. This would involve awareness, aim, and teamwork; all of which are great for the game.
2)Aliens can now play as they seem most natural, guerrilla style. Your spikes become a little more helpful, your fade becomes stronger, your hydras and gorge spit are now more dangerous than just annoying. This would give at least some perception of usefulness, especially in the eyes of new players, which is great for the game.
3)Welding can be a thing for people to do that don't necessarily want to be shooting for this round. I find gorge a welcome relief from skulking, why can't being the weld bitch fill the same role. I saw a lot of "class" threads when we went live, and while I don't expect classes to come about, we can create our own roles with the tools we have at hand. Whats that? Great for the game you say? yes.
Counter arguments are as follows: Pres sink, welders wreck cyst chains, what will I ever do with 100HP only.
As I said before, the Pres can be modified. Welders can just not damage cysts (especially if its made into a medigun knock-off!!!!!!11). And same thing you do with 100HP now, run back to something that repairs it, or just press on like a man.
I think there was more but it's late. Try to be civil...
I thought it was just an elitist being elitist, but I guess if I didn't see the sarcasm maybe I'm just projecting.
It's one of the core thematic differences between the teams. Marines are more squad oriented while aliens are more individualistic. Besides, going Gorge is obviously not comparable to picking up a welder as a marine for any number of reasons. It's not reasonable to expect every skulk pack to have an accompanying Gorge, but every marine pack could certainly have at least one welder.
Apples and oranges for a number of reasons. First, when you have EXOs on the field you can usually afford to spare res for an OCCASIONAL welder. That's not the problem. No one is saying that - right now - buying an occasional welder is a hardship.
When a marine has 20 res in the early/mid game, if he is forced to choose between buying a shottie and buying a welder, then you have just weakened the marine team without an alien laying a hand on him. He MUST buy the welder. Buying a shottie is no good if you die with ease - buh-bye 20 res. So instead he is now not as great a threat as he would have been. GG balance. The skulk-killing-shottie is too expensive if you want to buy a welder.
However, this still ignores the fact that buying welders is NOT fun. No one buys a welder because they WANT to buy a welder. They buy it out of necessity. What this change proposes is to make buying welders MANDATORY. You are taking the choice out of the player's hands. How is that fun? Why not let the player decide how to spend his resources instead of 'experts' deciding how to spend it for him. Dictating a player's playstyle is never fun at the best of times.
Like I said before. An average 8v8 pub game will see ~100 marines die. If they go through 20 welders, then they have lost the equivalent of 2 railgun EXOs. This is fun? People are buying welders instead of EXOs? What game are people playing here anyway? Welder warz?
I can tolerate the mechanic of removing armor repair from the armory. I may not like it, but I can get on board with it. If welders are free then the impact won't be too negative. Yeah marines will die more often, but it's not like they aren't dying more often now anyway. Overall the impact shouldn't be that bad for that mechanic alone.
The cost is a killer though. Honestly I can't stress it enough. You can't start sucking res out of the p-res pool for marines and say "Hey it's cool" thinking it won't impact the game or the fun people will have playing the game.
Try thinking about the average Joe here. Do we really think he will find buying welders fun? He never played NS1, he doesn't have any nostalgia for the 'good old days'. He just wants to play a game with some cool weapons. He's not here to spend his game welding stuff.
That's just not fun, and it's about time people began to realize that.
1. So what? ASYMMETRY IS GOOD!!!
2. So? The more teamwork the better. Just because there's other options doesn't mean we should rule out this one.
3. So? We're just talking about fostering alien teamwork.
4. If it has a negligible impact, why force the busy work?
I guess asymmetry is good unless it's inconvenient to your argument. I rest my case, your honor.
Yeah, bottom line: It's a marine nerf when they really don't need one. Aliens are already pretty good at hit and run. I'm not sure we need stronger fades or lurks.
The 240 release that Aliens shed massive tears over was actually damn near 50/50, sample size 25k games (official stats). The skulk fix will no doubt skew it back in favor of Aliens.
I don't really think it's so obvious that you can just state it. Why not? I see packs of aliens being healed by Gorges all the time. Certainly I can make the same arguments for it that you are making for forced marine welding, eg: promotes teamwork, healer class importance, added incentive to avoid damage, players already doing it, etc etc.
Basically what I hear from a lot of you guys is that busywork is OK for marines, but not OK for aliens. I'm not sure why that is, really. I don't think it's in the interest of balance.
If more people bought welders and used them sensibly, I'm convinced that marines could win more than they currently do.
People are also massively overestimating how long it takes to weld teammates.
Finally, if you're always stopping to weld teammates, rather than welding on the move, you're just not doing it right. I'm on my phone now so I can't dig out Tane's document about marine game play, but have a search on these forums for my thread about consistency, someone linked to that document there and it's well worth a read to pick up tips and tricks to keep you alive and effective as a marine.
Play the mod for a while. If you're dead against this change because you *think* it won't work or it won't be fun, then you have a vested interest in making sure that those mechanics which, upon testing you find you don't like, don't make it into the official game.
You can theory craft about numbers here all you like, but short of testing it in game, you have NO CLUE how it actually works in practice. There are far too many factors to take into consideration when it comes to theory crafting something like this. Simply saying it is not fun is pointless.
I will point out here that in the first marine game I played in the mod, despite being ridiculously far behind the aliens for must of it (we didn't attack enough at the beginning), we actually managed to field 3 exos, a bunch of jetpacks, grenades of course shotties and so on. We spent a little more on average on welders but it BARELY impacted economically. It might be only n = 1 but that's the result so far. I disagree with your assertion that this change will make the game unfun in and of itself; backed up with some evidence already, I suggest that the benefits of people learning how to use welders effectively (which they should be doing right now!) will outweigh the marginal cost to the team of one or two welders from p.res every so often.
As for testing this, what is there to test? I know how a welder works, I know how to weld a teammate, and I know how to click 'buy welder' at an armory. Any test in a structured environment is pointless since it doesn't represent the 99.9% of games that will be played on public servers. You can't take res out of marine pockets and not suck the fun out of it.
BUYING WELDERS IS NOT FUN. Find me someone who thinks buying welders is fun. Please. They probably get a kick out of bouncing a red rubber ball too. At best a person may think buying a welder is necessary, but I defy you to tell me that someone finds spending res on welders more fun than spending it on *any* other marine upgrade.
Like I said, if this is such an innocuous change, give the marines free welders. If they make so little difference - as you claim - then what's the big deal making them stock marine equipment? The problem here is that this is a trap question. If welders are a 'marginal cost' - as you claim - then given them away. It will have no impact on gameplay. You refuse to accede this since you know that the cost WILL make a difference. You know it WILL have an impact.
You can't have it both ways. If the cost makes no difference to gameplay, then give marines free welders. At least this way you don't suck fun out of the game. Forcing people to buy welders just to heal up isn't fun.
Edit: One last thought. You've tried it your way, why not suggest to Sewlek to try the opposite? Put welders in slot 4 as stock marine equipment and try it out. Why not? Nothing to lose right? If this is such an innocuous change, why not err on the side of fun and give out welders to see how it plays?
I see a few people speak about stopping marine getting shotties + jps but no one mention how aliens will have their lifeform explosion balanced. So now aliens also get pres when dead AND have no pres sink like this balance mod suggests for marines?
How about letting Gorge heal alien armor only like a few of us suggest. I mean it's alright because now you get pres when dead, it "encourages" communication and teamwork planning ambushes rather than just letting aliens rambo in alone once healed to full armor. It will not allow aliens to just go to the nearest crag, hive, or rely on regeneration because waiting to heal or walking back to the hive just slows down game play and wastes time from their front line guerrilla warfare tactics. Now Gorges will feel more like supporters and experience more "enjoyable" gameplay as aliens will have to come to them for armor healing instead of walking past them to the nearest healing station.
How do you expect to convince anyone otherwise by forcing welders for 5 pres and try to make it more agreeable by using MACS that are also 5 pres and go down extremely fast. Plus macs+robotics factory are just are another cost on the team res pool of marines early on in addition to increased armor/weapon research cost as well as giving the com a harder time while the kham just lays back as usual. Is the point of all this to stop marine expansion? Limit what marines can buy and make a welder mandatory? Because it will not be helping marine expansion or make the game play more enjoyable for pubs in general.
In addition the balance of the aliens remains to be seen after the skulk fix and you still have not addressed how marines will still hump the armories for health. You think removing armor healing will stop people from humping it? Now when they have less than full hp they will feel vulnerable and run back to base for more health and wait for welders refusing to move froward until full armor is restored especially when they are using gear like jetpack+sg.
Also this is not NS1 it's NS2. No need to try to make everything the same. You cannot expect aliens to be individualistic and expect skulks/fades/lerks to solo an entire decent marine squad. Jeeze in 240 Archaea was a pretty good alien team because they made use of teamwork by sticking together and ambushing/moving properly and not getting ripped apart by marines individually. So why not make Gorge part of this fantastic teamwork dynamic you guys are trying to make mandatory?
In the end I get the feeling Sewlek wants to try this armory change on a massive scale one way or another as it is how he envisions marines players SHOULD be playing not by choice but by necessity. Besides if marines are losing more games now due to 241, then it will simply wait to be brought up later on...so yea go ahead and try it. I am interested to see in the NS2's playerbase response outside of this forum. You know the 1-2k people who consistently play this game. If it works out then I cannot really say much to that.
Please read what I wrote before starting to stir. It's only 3 sentences.
The usefulness of the welder gets increased (not that of the armory). Right now, you have 3 ways to regain armor, one of them is incredibly easy and effective. This devalues the welders usefulness for armor repairing. You wouldn't buy one to repair armor. You buy one to repair buildings. It is easier to repair armor at the armory. But if this option doesn't exist anymore, the welder will be used more often to repair armor. (= usefulness increased) Or if you are going on semantics here, I will use another word:
With this change it is more desirable to have a welder. (increased demand)
It makes no sense to decrease the price of something when it will be bought even more often.
The only argument I see fit, is that the balance could be a problem, because marines are investing more p-res in early game now. But as I also wrote already, balance can be achieved by tweaks on multiple things. The first and most important thing of a change has to be the fun-aspect. And while some people don't think it is fun to create more of an incentive to weld each other, others do. I can understand that there are different opinions, because fun is a subjective thing. But the balance argument doesn't change this in anyway.
This a 100 times !
I dont think removing the armor healing completely is necessary. I'm pretty sure Flayra's idea behind armor healing was to stop this silly behaviour : if I dont leave base with 100% armor i'd rather /kill and respawn with full armor
Before completely removing it you should experiment new ideas
There are plenty ( reduce healing rate, make it only available for advanced armories, make it only available for armories within a tech point with a CC and bla bla bla ).
I would also add that if you want to remove it completely > you should remove the armor from spawn right away ( to not encourage self /kill )
assuming you've been following this thread since the beginning, i think you've missed some key points.
1. the extra pres cost for marines could be compensated somewhat by the reworked alien upgrade structure.
2. the extra pres cost for marines is being over-stated. you don't need to spend 5pres every life, you can quite easily share a single welder - one guy repairs all then gives it to another guy who repairs him back.
3. if welding isn't working efficiently; the commander can use mac's as a contingency (instead of the armory).
i was against the change before, mainly because it didn't seem right to only have a single method to repair armour. especially when that method could interfere with your playing style.
everyone must appreciate the detriment of forward armory sieges, and with the change at least you'd need either mac's or welder(s) to complete an 'armory contain'.
on top of that, mac's are awesome and what better way to make them a staple unit? right now they're almost exclusively a superfluous tres sink for fat cat commanders.
1) Yes it is. However, you are equating asymmetry between a fundamental game mechanic and forcing the alien team to always have an evolved life-form. Your logic is flawed because the play styles of aliens and marines are completely different, therefore forcing "similar teamwork" or whatever has no bearing on the game. The point of asymmetry is to have differing playstyles on each side.
2) Another unsubstantiated claim. Going to a gorge to heal is more busy work than going to a marine - Skulks often have to cross the entire map to get to where a gorge is, whereas your welder-buddy is usually right next to you, or dead. This would introduce real "busy work" instead of welding each other.
3) No one is talking about that except you.
4) Only you view it as busy work without actually playing the game. I promise you that in-game it does not feel like busywork.
The point is, you have no clue what you're talking about. Why don't you actually play the changes. Or if you don't want alien healing make a mod and test it out. I've played the changes and there is absolutely 0 sense to any of the objections that people are fielding.
I think mandatory is a strong word, and like I said, the cost of a welder can be modified from 0-infinity. If you're worried about cost effectiveness look beyond that to when they ARE cost effective.
Within the realm of our topic it already applies to pressure teams in comp. matches. It already applies to pressure teams in pub matches. Your armor isn't going to be repaired because the commander has no interest in dropping an armory at this time/ever in that location. You most certainly aren't going to go back, you're in this to the death. Why not make your death more difficult to obtain?
You are also ignoring all the res the welder will help you maintain or save. I'm not saying it will make marines dominate the territorial game, but it sure cant hurt as much as running back to an armory does, in the scope of map control, or just staying at 0 armor.
Also, the lifeform explosion (another topic) versus the marines pres sink is inconsequential. How much res does 1 marine need? 20 for a shotgun? 10 for a jetpack? You start at 20 so now all you need is 10. Which really doesn't take that long. How about 15 for mines, and 15 for 3 welders over the course of the game. Now you're talking an average length game with a decent amount of RT's (I'm sure someone could do the math). I am also sure someone could do the math to account for 3 more welder purchases and still come out with a slightly positive or negative p.res income. Or you can lower the cost of other equipment to account for it.
Like I said, the numbers can be tweaked.
@bobinou No marine that is holding a key location, full armor or not, is going to kill themselves and sacrifice the map control. Sometimes the mere presence of a marine is good enough. The perception of strength in an area. That's where strategy comes in.