I love /kill in fpses in general, probably cuz I loved a space ctf map in q3, and killing yourself could shave off 2-3 seconds off respawn. suicide has always been about positioning. beacon, but phase is down? tele back to defend main, you take it case by case, it's especially good because stock marines are beefy. it's not about die now to avoid death later, it's about kill myself now so I save time and can push somewhere else earlier. I usually don't kill myself, but I have before, and I will in the future, cuzsometimes every second counts.
Comp players kill themselves all the time. Its a free teliport, much quicker than running back to base. If your base is rushed, you get one person to ~kill and help defend.
In what alternate universe do you live in then? I have never seen this _ever_ and I watched and played dozens of matches. Is this another thing that's only common outside Europe? You guys seem to be pretty weird.
Seen Nexzil do it a dozen times in their skrims. I assume they do it because they put a three man team forward and that lets skulks get around them easier. They can just ~kill and have one of them in position at base to defend if that is the case. I am not a pro though so maybe their reasoning is different.
Nexzil also go W1 first, so that's already two things that could improve their game if they did it differently.
I always go W1 first (in comp games) if I know my team is filled with reliable shooters who check corners and don't let the skulks get a jump on them. Not only because it makes killing skulks/gorges/lerks a bit easier, but because that 10% damage increase makes it 10% more likely that a harvester will go down in a push. Which is the main goal of early game, killing skulks is the means to an end when hunting harvesters, not the other way around.
A1 is more useful if your marines get surprised constantly, can't hit their targets reliably from afar and, most importantly, don't push harvesters actively enough. This is the description of public play.
Also, kill in console is a very valid tactic in certain situations. It's just blatantly stupid to say that it's always useless, even though it's something used very rarely. What happened in one of our games was that we had a 4-marine team pushing their harvesters, and after we won the initial encounter, we didn't face any skulks for 30 seconds despite sitting on their natural harvester. An obvious base rush incoming. I made the mistake of starting to run back to base instead of killing myself, and was too late when I got to the base; 4 skulks already chomping on the command station. I would have been ready and waiting if I had killed myself, with no detrimental effect to our map control or push power, since those 3 marines could just as easily fight the infestation and harvesters without me.
SewlekThe programmer previously known as SchimmelJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
i disagree that kill is a valid tactic. its more a debug command. but removing the kill command just causes people to press F4 and rejoin a team so there is no real fix. its an exploit in my opinion. if you want to instantly travel back to the marine base there are 2 intended features for this: beacon and phase gates.
I did not refer to whether it is intended or not. People in this thread are arguing that it is useless, which it in some situations is far from. Whether or not it's an exploit and not intended is another topic. I, personally, wouldn't deem it an exploit.
i disagree that kill is a valid tactic. its more a debug command. but removing the kill command just causes people to press F4 and rejoin a team so there is no real fix. its an exploit in my opinion. if you want to instantly travel back to the marine base there are 2 intended features for this: beacon and phase gates.
Especially should you not remove the kill command without implementing an unstuck command, since there are still many situations in maps where players can get stuck in a corner and the only way to get out is to suicide (at the cost of losing your potential high lifeform or weapon).
Besides that suiciding can have quite some backleash if you kill yourself, expect to respawn but are stuck in a spawn queue because some players of the opposing team left. Bonus points if a Skulk is chewing on the mainbase power in the meanwhile - I have lost matches already because I couldn't respawn after dying and thus could not save our base from an incoming single Skulk, even though the comm was relying on me to do so.
I'd almost call it an exploit if you can prevent reinforcements from respawning during a sneak attack of your team just by having someone go to the ready room for a moment. There should really be an emergency override to the auto team balancer if your main base power or Hive is under attack or something like that.
Honestly I'd rather see a team balance enforcements in spawn time increases for each missing player instead of just forcing someone out of the game until another teammate dies, which might as well not happen for another five minutes. Add another 7 seconds of respawn time for every missing player on the other team as long as your team has more alive players than the total number of players on the enemy team.
Achieving balance is one thing, but one team should not suffer from pushing the other team so much back that they managed to make some of their players F4.
And am I right to assume that the pres allocation is happening based on the number of players on the team, so a team with less players gets more overall pres than the team with more players? Otherwise they would lose out on pres for every missing player.
you can't stop people jumping into lava to suicide either. ergo 'kill' needs to stay, otherwise you have an advantage if you randomly happen to be standing near an abyss.
i disagree that kill is a valid tactic. its more a debug command. but removing the kill command just causes people to press F4 and rejoin a team so there is no real fix. its an exploit in my opinion.
Of course, I agree totally. People will exploit it to get around something in the game they dislike. You can't code around that since as you said, people will F4 or even just leave the server.
The problem is that if people *are* using it, then it indicates that there is a flaw in gameplay. If people would rather suicide than play within the realm of the game then this is an issue that needs to be addressed.
If you remove all means for a person to freely restore their armor, then they will use other methods to achieve that end. While this will not likely happen in competitive games, in pub games I can totally see it happening since it happened frequently in NS1. (If it wasn't /kill then it was just getting oneself killed otherwise with a suicide rush or using environmental hazzards)
The bottom line is that we can't force people to play the way we want them to play. If I can look and see no one in the spawn queue, and I'm near a marine base, then /kill is a quick and easy way to assure I can return to full health AND armor at no cost. It may not be the way we want people to play, but it will be the way they will play if they are left with the choice of spending personal res on welders or shotguns.
Will /kill be usable in all cases? Of course not. It would be foolish to /kill when you have people in the spawn queue. Better to be alive and weak than dead. However, the ONLY cost for /kill is 7 seconds of down time. That 7 seconds is a pretty cheap price to pay for full health/armor/ammo.
With /kill on a bind a person can assure that they can time their death to not impact the team. For me, I'll totally use it instead of paying for welders. People are free to smother me in all the disagrees they want, but if I can avoid that inane welder cost and still remain competitive, then I'll do it. I don't play NS2 to spend all my time welding stuff. If /kill is disabled then I just F4 and rejoin. Same difference.
So it really doesn't impact me either way if this change goes through. I can still get my armor 'repaired' one way or another.
i disagree that kill is a valid tactic. its more a debug command. but removing the kill command just causes people to press F4 and rejoin a team so there is no real fix. its an exploit in my opinion. if you want to instantly travel back to the marine base there are 2 intended features for this: beacon and phase gates.
But it's something you should, realistically, be able to do. You have the ability to shoot yourself in the head if you so choose. It's arguable of course that you wouldn't in real life, but you also probably wouldn't do a lot of things the game expects you to do along the lines of getting yourself killed to help the team.
The problem is with the weird marine spawning system which makes no realistic sense. Marines have all this weird teleporty technology but apparently the only way to trigger it in a per-marine basis is to kill yourself, so yeah, people will do it.
Savant, you might be interested in this change which just went into the balance mod for testing in conjunction with the armory change:
-added nano armor research to arms lab (marines regenerate 0.5 armor per second when out of combat)
Hmmm, 0.5 armor per second, so at armor 3 with 90 armor that means 180 seconds to regen to full, or 3 minutes. Versus 7 seconds? It's a token gesture.
Now let's be clear, on its own it's an interesting idea, but it's no replacement for what is being taken away.
You need to look at it from the perspective of what we have *NOW*, versus /kill. Why does a person use the armory now instead of /kill?
Think about it. Right now it can take LONGER than 7 seconds to run back to base, reload, heal heath and heal armor. Easily. Imagine running from Operations on Mineshaft to Pilot Drill. You engage a skulk, he takes a few bites out of you. Now do the math for the run back, plus the time it takes to heal up at the armory. As it stands *right now* I could save time using /kill if no one is in the spawn queue. Add the 5 seconds running back with the 4 seconds to heal up and rearm and I have a net savings of 2 seconds. It would also take less effort. So why would someone not do it now?
Why? Since using the armory will still provide them the same thing. While 2 seconds is nice, the time gain is negligible.
However, contrast that with going back and being down 90 armor. Now you have a much bigger choice. Do I waste the 9 seconds running back and healing up and being left with no armor, or do I choose /kill with a 7 second penalty and get back full health/armor?
The ONLY way you could force people to adopt this change would be to spawn marines with 0 armor. That's it. Only then will you force people to buy welders to gain what they would have gained by default.
Is that the way we want to go?
I know people disagree with my point of view, and I totally respect that, but keep in mind I'm only saying what many others will do - as well as myself. If a mechanic can be exploited, it will. If /kill will still provide health/armor then people will use it.
The other thing to consider is while there may be no one in spawn queue when you /kill. Now there is, and people legitimately dying are being slowed down because you're lazy.
Will /kill be usable in all cases? Of course not. It would be foolish to /kill when you have people in the spawn queue. Better to be alive and weak than dead. However, the ONLY cost for /kill is 7 seconds of down time. That 7 seconds is a pretty cheap price to pay for full health/armor/ammo.
7 seconds
+ X seconds to wait because another one is dead
+ X seconds more to wait because another one killed himself
+ 3-5 seconds to wait before the kill command kills you
+ X seconds to go back to where you were
= too many reasons to lose the game.
Savant, you might be interested in this change which just went into the balance mod for testing in conjunction with the armory change:
-added nano armor research to arms lab (marines regenerate 0.5 armor per second when out of combat)
Hmmm, 0.5 armor per second, so at armor 3 with 90 armor that means 180 seconds to regen to full, or 3 minutes. Versus 7 seconds? It's a token gesture.
Now let's be clear, on its own it's an interesting idea, but it's no replacement for what is being taken away.
You need to look at it from the perspective of what we have *NOW*, versus /kill. Why does a person use the armory now instead of /kill?
Think about it. Right now it can take LONGER than 7 seconds to run back to base, reload, heal heath and heal armor. Easily. Imagine running from Operations on Mineshaft to Pilot Drill. You engage a skulk, he takes a few bites out of you. Now do the math for the run back, plus the time it takes to heal up at the armory. As it stands *right now* I could save time using /kill if no one is in the spawn queue. Add the 5 seconds running back with the 4 seconds to heal up and rearm and I have a net savings of 2 seconds. It would also take less effort. So why would someone not do it now?
Why? Since using the armory will still provide them the same thing. While 2 seconds is nice, the time gain is negligible.
However, contrast that with going back and being down 90 armor. Now you have a much bigger choice. Do I waste the 9 seconds running back and healing up and being left with no armor, or do I choose /kill with a 7 second penalty and get back full health/armor?
The ONLY way you could force people to adopt this change would be to spawn marines with 0 armor. That's it. Only then will you force people to buy welders to gain what they would have gained by default.
Is that the way we want to go?
I know people disagree with my point of view, and I totally respect that, but keep in mind I'm only saying what many others will do - as well as myself. If a mechanic can be exploited, it will. If /kill will still provide health/armor then people will use it.
As someone who frequently gets myself killed in order to accomplish objectives, I think I would probably end up binding kill to a button, it's really not justifiable from either a personal or team perspective to waste time trying to get armor back if I can just press a button, die, and respawn with it.
I will however find the game infinitely more stupid and far less fun if this becomes a (more) valid tactic.
Especially as another paid for upgrade, seriously paid for upgrades are stupid, they take potentially fun bits of gameplay and stop you using them arbitrarily for half the game. Furthermore they all have to be 'balanced' around costing increasingly stupid amounts of money, which means that you tend to suck if you don't have them or be overpowered if you do. Takes the skill out of the game when it boils down to who has the most tres dumped into their class upgrades.
A paid for armor regen upgrade is either going to be boring, overpowered, useless, or yet another mandatory res sink, possibly multiple of the above.
Considering the number of buildings I've knifed down at 35hp/0ap or because no one bothered to respond quickly, or even fights won at that HP, I'll keep myself in the field.
An automatic armor regen ability would be a deeply depressing compromise.
I'm holding my judgement on it, it would probably be powerful early game but endgame against fades/onos it is not going to regen quick enough to make a difference. Welders will still be far superior.
Will /kill be usable in all cases? Of course not. It would be foolish to /kill when you have people in the spawn queue. Better to be alive and weak than dead. However, the ONLY cost for /kill is 7 seconds of down time. That 7 seconds is a pretty cheap price to pay for full health/armor/ammo.
7 seconds
+ X seconds to wait because another one is dead
+ X seconds more to wait because another one killed himself
+ 3-5 seconds to wait before the kill command kills you
= too many reasons to lose the game.
Simple mathematics.
+ 60 or more seconds to get back into a position where you can apply pressure.
@savant, the only way 'kill' is a smart move is when your usefulness in base outweights your usefulness in the field. you could run into alien hive and start shooting an RT, thus distracting X aliens before meeting your natural demise. meanwhile your teammate was able to kill an RT on the other side of the map because the aliens responded to you instead.
you try to make it sound like aliens will be quaking in their boots every time they see a marine suicide message. the aliens WANT marines in their base hugging an armory/respawning, because it inherently means the marines aren't harrassing their harvesters. doing what the aliens want isn't really a good marine tactic.
The other thing to consider is while there may be no one in spawn queue when you /kill. Now there is, and people legitimately dying are being slowed down because you're lazy.
If the marine team only has one IP and a full spawn queue, then I think they have bigger problems.
However, the ONLY cost for /kill is 7 seconds of down time. That 7 seconds is a pretty cheap price to pay for full health/armor/ammo.
7 seconds
+ X seconds to wait because another one is dead
Really? Despite every time I mention this I said if the spawn queue was empty you are going to toss up straw men?
+ X seconds more to wait because another one killed himself
If the marines only have one IP and this is an issue, then they have bigger problems.
+ 3-5 seconds to wait before the kill command kills you
Which game are you playing? I've never waited more than 2, and that's if the server is slow.
Simple mathematics.
I'll give you some math...
1 welder = 5 less res = 1 less early shottie = a lerk that could have been killed but that won't be
Or course there is also:
Marines roaming the map being killed in 2 bites instead of 4
Marines having 'welder orgies' welding each other thus putting them unable to defend themselves from attack
Marines spending time welding that could be spent defending assests
Marines spending time welding that could be spent assaulting alien assets
Yeah, you go right ahead and weld the day away. No skin off my back. I'm smart enough to know when /kill wouldn't be wise, but unless your team is dying repeatedly it shouldn't be an issue. If your team IS dying repeatedly to the point where the spawn queue is filled, then it is likely because they are getting two-shot, or because they are just outskilled. Either way, you've got bigger problems to worry about.
+ 60 or more seconds to get back into a position where you can apply pressure.
Wow really? What kind of games are people playing here? No phase gates? 60 seconds? Com'on get serious please.
@savant, the only way 'kill' is a smart move is when your usefulness in base outweights your usefulness in the field. you could run into alien hive and start shooting an RT, thus distracting X aliens before meeting your natural demise. meanwhile your teammate was able to kill an RT on the other side of the map because the aliens responded to you instead.
I think part of the problem is that people here never really used /kill in a tactical manner in NS1.
Honestly, are you suggesting I'm going to use /kill when I'm outside an objective?
Here is what I considered before I used it in NS1 and what I would consider for is this change comes through:
-Is there anyone in the spawn queue?
If no, /kill remains viable
-Is there an immediate objective that I am within range?
If no, /kill remains viable
-Will the suicide mean the loss of an advanced weapon?
If no, /kill remains viable
-Am I heading towards a marine outpost with the intent of getting health/ammo?
If yes, /kill remains viable
I could go on, but use COMMON SENSE please. For me I very much consider a variety of factors. However I used to suicide all the time in NS1. I had it bound and used it all the time. I had thought NS2 would put an end to that, but perhaps I thought wrong.
You guys keep trying to come up with these fantasy ideas to dissuade people, but you also forget the obvious. Some people just won't CARE what the game impact is, because they won't want to pay this stupid 'welder tax'. These are pub games we're talking about here. People care more about fun then they do about anything else.
Remember, this isn't about me. You can sling all the criticism you want, but it will be a choice people will make, and when they find out what this welder tax will cost, and that it will mean fewer 'toys' to play with, I can bet there will be selfish people who suicide without even considering ANY of what I consider. You know what, that's fine.
People will play how they want to play. You can NOT enforce a given playstyle. It just doesn't work. It's been tried and it never succeeds.
Or course there is also:
Marines roaming the map being killed in 2 bites instead of 4
Marines having 'welder orgies' welding each other thus putting them unable to defend themselves from attack
Marines spending time welding that could be spent defending assests
Marines spending time welding that could be spent assaulting alien assets
ummm i would rather see this than the current armory humping... At least with your made up welder orgies the marines are in place where they should be. Armory humping always sends them back for any armor lost losing ground. I have been welding (wow what a concept right?) a new play while calling for med packs. The new player ran past me to travel all the way back to base to heal even though i had my welder with meds 2 seconds later.
It has to stop.
If you want to use the /kill command btw, have at it. You obviously dont care about map control and give the aliens an advantage. 1 marine can detour that skulk from starting a feed gate or shoot it off a advanced base power node. Not only did you clog up the queue with a silly suicide, you just made it that much harder to phase in with your fellow marines, to a position you should have held.
Rookies will not use the kill command. Doubt they know if exists. Stop pretending as if the /kill command was a problem in NS1. It wasnt and i never saw it. Your made up claims are getting more and more unbelievable and it is sad to see they are the basis for your arguments.
-Is there anyone in the spawn queue?
If no, /kill remains viable
-Is there an immediate objective that I am within range?
If no, /kill remains viable
-Will the suicide mean the loss of an advanced weapon?
If no, /kill remains viable
-Am I heading towards a marine outpost with the intent of getting health/ammo?
If yes, /kill remains viable
You're just echoing what everyone else is saying. /kill is ALMOST never a better choice going by the list you have there. And that matches up with what your detractors are saying.
Or course there is also:
Marines roaming the map being killed in 2 bites instead of 4
ummm i would rather see this than the current armory humping...
That's where we'll have to disagree. I have no interest in walking around the map with the equivalent of A0 in later game just because some people can't stand the thought of a marine being able to *gasp* heal back to full health. Oh noes! How did the game survive this far?
Honestly, if people want to drive away new players by raising the skill curve, go for it. When all that is left is a dozen populated servers with you and your pals, at least you can say that there is no armory humping. You won that battle, but you lost the war. GG.
(In case you haven't noticed, player counts are dropping like a rock and adding a welder tax ain't gonna bring people back.)
You obviously dont care about map control and give the aliens an advantage.
I care about having fun. Welding is not fun for me. It's that simple. And given the number of people who use welders now, I'm in the majority.
If that upsets you, then you have my apologies, but I have no intention of changing my playstyle because some other people say so. Sling all the insults you want. When people start using /kill in-game, insult them too. Keep insulting them thinking that they'll change how they'll play - and when they leave for good, you won't have to insult them anymore.
Or course there is also:
Marines roaming the map being killed in 2 bites instead of 4
ummm i would rather see this than the current armory humping...
That's where we'll have to disagree. I have no interest in walking around the map with the equivalent of A0 in later game just because some people can't stand the thought of a marine being able to *gasp* heal back to full health. Oh noes! How did the game survive this far?
It's not about that, it's about fades (and skulks) becoming almost useless against late game a3 armory every room marines. You HAVE to retreat before you're able to kill even one person (most of the time) if the marines are playing right, then they're at full hp again. Yeah, no.
Then the selfish boys like you can get welded and none of you has to lose your precious 5 res.
I wonder if you buy mines? I'm guessing not, because they're boring and delay your shotgun... Never mind that they're an amazing bonus for your team that helps you gain more res in the long run. And welders are definitely not like that either. Right?
That's where we'll have to disagree. I have no interest in walking around the map with the equivalent of A0 in later game just because some people can't stand the thought of a marine being able to *gasp* heal back to full health. Oh noes! How did the game survive this far?
Honestly, if people want to drive away new players by raising the skill curve, go for it. When all that is left is a dozen populated servers with you and your pals, at least you can say that there is no armory humping. You won that battle, but you lost the war. GG.
(In case you haven't noticed, player counts are dropping like a rock and adding a welder tax ain't gonna bring people back.)
This must be why exos in game have been typing /kill every time they get low health. I mean no one welds them ever. They cant even weld themselves. Rookies NEVER play exos for this reason. Get rid of the unit entirely. It drives ALL PLAYERS AWAY! I mean who wants to have to play as a team. This game is all about me when i play and you arent my concern. Only my fun and what i see as fun /end sarcasm.
There is no skill requirement to the welder. What you are searching for to describe this is upping the teamwork element. Damn the devs for forcing something like that... It amazes me you argue that no one will buy the welder or it is a res sink. When the aliens damage structures in base you have to buy a welder... Do you think structures should auto heal to prevent you from using 5 Pres? Your arguments and fictitious examples are exaggerated and highly situation/the worst scenario to give grounds to your pointless arguments. If there is an element that is hard to grasp by a new player then make sure to add something to help that, dont just remove it.
It's not about that, it's about fades (and skulks) becoming almost useless against late game a3 armory every room marines. You HAVE to retreat before you're able to kill even one person (most of the time) if the marines are playing right, then they're at full hp again.
And how is that ANY different than trying to kill a fade that blinks/shadowsteps away, heals at a nearby crag and comes back? Healing is part of the game.
It's like saying fades are too easy to kill so let's give the marines fewer bullets. How about instead you buff fade health and/or armor? The former affects EVERY marine encounter, while the latter only impacts fades. Onos have no problems killing marines, but now they will be even easier to kill with this change. Screwing with how marines heal is NOT the answer to alien problems.
How about two words: FREE welders. If you want people to weld, give everyone a welder in slot 4 when they spawn. I have said I would have no problem with that. I still don't like it, but I wouldn't hate it like I do the current option.
This must be why exos in game have been typing /kill every time they get low health. I mean no one welds them ever.
Cute. If marines can afford to go EXO then the marines are rolling in res. If a player can't afford a welder than the comm can. However, in the early/mid game resources are precious, and every person who pays this 'welder tax' will end up pushing back their progression to better weapons.
It amazes me you argue that no one will buy the welder or it is a res sink.
The proposal *IS* a res sink. If it was not you would be willing to give them away for free. Are you? Sorry it got really quiet all of a sudden.
I'm sure there will be plenty of people who will buy welders, and there will be plenty more who will not. Good luck trying to balance for that.
My point is that this will increase the skill curve of the game. It's hard enough as it is to get new players up to speed and you want to make it harder? This is why I have repeatedly advocated for a 'hard mode' so that people could put in all these stupid ideas like making people buy welders. Hey, put in a hard mode and charge per bullet too. Go nuts. If you want to bring new people into the game you can't keep upping the difficultly level like this.
Just don't be surprised if you see the player base continue to drop off the way you're going. I can't give away the last copy of the game I bought to give away. (during the last sale) People either own it or they tried it and didn't like it.
Like I said, this isn't about me. Sling all the insults you want since they don't faze me in the least. My point has always been about the general player base. How does this impact THEM? Have you even considered that for a microsecond? Because it sure doesn't look that way to me.
Or is the plan to insult the hell out of any player in game who objects to this hoping they'll come around to your point of view. Hmmm.. Lemme know how that works out. Since it's not working that well here.
Comments
I always go W1 first (in comp games) if I know my team is filled with reliable shooters who check corners and don't let the skulks get a jump on them. Not only because it makes killing skulks/gorges/lerks a bit easier, but because that 10% damage increase makes it 10% more likely that a harvester will go down in a push. Which is the main goal of early game, killing skulks is the means to an end when hunting harvesters, not the other way around.
A1 is more useful if your marines get surprised constantly, can't hit their targets reliably from afar and, most importantly, don't push harvesters actively enough. This is the description of public play.
Also, kill in console is a very valid tactic in certain situations. It's just blatantly stupid to say that it's always useless, even though it's something used very rarely. What happened in one of our games was that we had a 4-marine team pushing their harvesters, and after we won the initial encounter, we didn't face any skulks for 30 seconds despite sitting on their natural harvester. An obvious base rush incoming. I made the mistake of starting to run back to base instead of killing myself, and was too late when I got to the base; 4 skulks already chomping on the command station. I would have been ready and waiting if I had killed myself, with no detrimental effect to our map control or push power, since those 3 marines could just as easily fight the infestation and harvesters without me.
We changed from W1 first a long time ago in fact, I'm not sure where that information came from.
On another note, let's get back to topic: Pretty much all has been said. Is this change gonna make it or not?
Especially should you not remove the kill command without implementing an unstuck command, since there are still many situations in maps where players can get stuck in a corner and the only way to get out is to suicide (at the cost of losing your potential high lifeform or weapon).
Besides that suiciding can have quite some backleash if you kill yourself, expect to respawn but are stuck in a spawn queue because some players of the opposing team left. Bonus points if a Skulk is chewing on the mainbase power in the meanwhile - I have lost matches already because I couldn't respawn after dying and thus could not save our base from an incoming single Skulk, even though the comm was relying on me to do so.
I'd almost call it an exploit if you can prevent reinforcements from respawning during a sneak attack of your team just by having someone go to the ready room for a moment. There should really be an emergency override to the auto team balancer if your main base power or Hive is under attack or something like that.
Honestly I'd rather see a team balance enforcements in spawn time increases for each missing player instead of just forcing someone out of the game until another teammate dies, which might as well not happen for another five minutes. Add another 7 seconds of respawn time for every missing player on the other team as long as your team has more alive players than the total number of players on the enemy team.
Achieving balance is one thing, but one team should not suffer from pushing the other team so much back that they managed to make some of their players F4.
And am I right to assume that the pres allocation is happening based on the number of players on the team, so a team with less players gets more overall pres than the team with more players? Otherwise they would lose out on pres for every missing player.
The problem is that if people *are* using it, then it indicates that there is a flaw in gameplay. If people would rather suicide than play within the realm of the game then this is an issue that needs to be addressed.
If you remove all means for a person to freely restore their armor, then they will use other methods to achieve that end. While this will not likely happen in competitive games, in pub games I can totally see it happening since it happened frequently in NS1. (If it wasn't /kill then it was just getting oneself killed otherwise with a suicide rush or using environmental hazzards)
The bottom line is that we can't force people to play the way we want them to play. If I can look and see no one in the spawn queue, and I'm near a marine base, then /kill is a quick and easy way to assure I can return to full health AND armor at no cost. It may not be the way we want people to play, but it will be the way they will play if they are left with the choice of spending personal res on welders or shotguns.
Will /kill be usable in all cases? Of course not. It would be foolish to /kill when you have people in the spawn queue. Better to be alive and weak than dead. However, the ONLY cost for /kill is 7 seconds of down time. That 7 seconds is a pretty cheap price to pay for full health/armor/ammo.
With /kill on a bind a person can assure that they can time their death to not impact the team. For me, I'll totally use it instead of paying for welders. People are free to smother me in all the disagrees they want, but if I can avoid that inane welder cost and still remain competitive, then I'll do it. I don't play NS2 to spend all my time welding stuff. If /kill is disabled then I just F4 and rejoin. Same difference.
So it really doesn't impact me either way if this change goes through. I can still get my armor 'repaired' one way or another.
But it's something you should, realistically, be able to do. You have the ability to shoot yourself in the head if you so choose. It's arguable of course that you wouldn't in real life, but you also probably wouldn't do a lot of things the game expects you to do along the lines of getting yourself killed to help the team.
The problem is with the weird marine spawning system which makes no realistic sense. Marines have all this weird teleporty technology but apparently the only way to trigger it in a per-marine basis is to kill yourself, so yeah, people will do it.
Hooray more ways to make basic marines inherently more powerful by throwing money at them. Clearly that is an improvement over armory repairs.
Now let's be clear, on its own it's an interesting idea, but it's no replacement for what is being taken away.
You need to look at it from the perspective of what we have *NOW*, versus /kill. Why does a person use the armory now instead of /kill?
Think about it. Right now it can take LONGER than 7 seconds to run back to base, reload, heal heath and heal armor. Easily. Imagine running from Operations on Mineshaft to Pilot Drill. You engage a skulk, he takes a few bites out of you. Now do the math for the run back, plus the time it takes to heal up at the armory. As it stands *right now* I could save time using /kill if no one is in the spawn queue. Add the 5 seconds running back with the 4 seconds to heal up and rearm and I have a net savings of 2 seconds. It would also take less effort. So why would someone not do it now?
Why? Since using the armory will still provide them the same thing. While 2 seconds is nice, the time gain is negligible.
However, contrast that with going back and being down 90 armor. Now you have a much bigger choice. Do I waste the 9 seconds running back and healing up and being left with no armor, or do I choose /kill with a 7 second penalty and get back full health/armor?
The ONLY way you could force people to adopt this change would be to spawn marines with 0 armor. That's it. Only then will you force people to buy welders to gain what they would have gained by default.
Is that the way we want to go?
I know people disagree with my point of view, and I totally respect that, but keep in mind I'm only saying what many others will do - as well as myself. If a mechanic can be exploited, it will. If /kill will still provide health/armor then people will use it.
+ X seconds to wait because another one is dead
+ X seconds more to wait because another one killed himself
+ 3-5 seconds to wait before the kill command kills you
+ X seconds to go back to where you were
= too many reasons to lose the game.
Simple mathematics.
As someone who frequently gets myself killed in order to accomplish objectives, I think I would probably end up binding kill to a button, it's really not justifiable from either a personal or team perspective to waste time trying to get armor back if I can just press a button, die, and respawn with it.
I will however find the game infinitely more stupid and far less fun if this becomes a (more) valid tactic.
A paid for armor regen upgrade is either going to be boring, overpowered, useless, or yet another mandatory res sink, possibly multiple of the above.
I'm holding my judgement on it, it would probably be powerful early game but endgame against fades/onos it is not going to regen quick enough to make a difference. Welders will still be far superior.
+ 60 or more seconds to get back into a position where you can apply pressure.
@savant, the only way 'kill' is a smart move is when your usefulness in base outweights your usefulness in the field. you could run into alien hive and start shooting an RT, thus distracting X aliens before meeting your natural demise. meanwhile your teammate was able to kill an RT on the other side of the map because the aliens responded to you instead.
you try to make it sound like aliens will be quaking in their boots every time they see a marine suicide message. the aliens WANT marines in their base hugging an armory/respawning, because it inherently means the marines aren't harrassing their harvesters. doing what the aliens want isn't really a good marine tactic.
Really? Despite every time I mention this I said if the spawn queue was empty you are going to toss up straw men?
If the marines only have one IP and this is an issue, then they have bigger problems.
Which game are you playing? I've never waited more than 2, and that's if the server is slow.
I'll give you some math...
1 welder = 5 less res = 1 less early shottie = a lerk that could have been killed but that won't be
Or course there is also:
Marines roaming the map being killed in 2 bites instead of 4
Marines having 'welder orgies' welding each other thus putting them unable to defend themselves from attack
Marines spending time welding that could be spent defending assests
Marines spending time welding that could be spent assaulting alien assets
Yeah, you go right ahead and weld the day away. No skin off my back. I'm smart enough to know when /kill wouldn't be wise, but unless your team is dying repeatedly it shouldn't be an issue. If your team IS dying repeatedly to the point where the spawn queue is filled, then it is likely because they are getting two-shot, or because they are just outskilled. Either way, you've got bigger problems to worry about.
Wow really? What kind of games are people playing here? No phase gates? 60 seconds? Com'on get serious please.
I think part of the problem is that people here never really used /kill in a tactical manner in NS1.
Honestly, are you suggesting I'm going to use /kill when I'm outside an objective?
Here is what I considered before I used it in NS1 and what I would consider for is this change comes through:
-Is there anyone in the spawn queue?
If no, /kill remains viable
-Is there an immediate objective that I am within range?
If no, /kill remains viable
-Will the suicide mean the loss of an advanced weapon?
If no, /kill remains viable
-Am I heading towards a marine outpost with the intent of getting health/ammo?
If yes, /kill remains viable
I could go on, but use COMMON SENSE please. For me I very much consider a variety of factors. However I used to suicide all the time in NS1. I had it bound and used it all the time. I had thought NS2 would put an end to that, but perhaps I thought wrong.
You guys keep trying to come up with these fantasy ideas to dissuade people, but you also forget the obvious. Some people just won't CARE what the game impact is, because they won't want to pay this stupid 'welder tax'. These are pub games we're talking about here. People care more about fun then they do about anything else.
Remember, this isn't about me. You can sling all the criticism you want, but it will be a choice people will make, and when they find out what this welder tax will cost, and that it will mean fewer 'toys' to play with, I can bet there will be selfish people who suicide without even considering ANY of what I consider. You know what, that's fine.
People will play how they want to play. You can NOT enforce a given playstyle. It just doesn't work. It's been tried and it never succeeds.
ummm i would rather see this than the current armory humping... At least with your made up welder orgies the marines are in place where they should be. Armory humping always sends them back for any armor lost losing ground. I have been welding (wow what a concept right?) a new play while calling for med packs. The new player ran past me to travel all the way back to base to heal even though i had my welder with meds 2 seconds later.
It has to stop.
If you want to use the /kill command btw, have at it. You obviously dont care about map control and give the aliens an advantage. 1 marine can detour that skulk from starting a feed gate or shoot it off a advanced base power node. Not only did you clog up the queue with a silly suicide, you just made it that much harder to phase in with your fellow marines, to a position you should have held.
Rookies will not use the kill command. Doubt they know if exists. Stop pretending as if the /kill command was a problem in NS1. It wasnt and i never saw it. Your made up claims are getting more and more unbelievable and it is sad to see they are the basis for your arguments.
You're just echoing what everyone else is saying. /kill is ALMOST never a better choice going by the list you have there. And that matches up with what your detractors are saying.
Honestly, if people want to drive away new players by raising the skill curve, go for it. When all that is left is a dozen populated servers with you and your pals, at least you can say that there is no armory humping. You won that battle, but you lost the war. GG.
(In case you haven't noticed, player counts are dropping like a rock and adding a welder tax ain't gonna bring people back.)
I care about having fun. Welding is not fun for me. It's that simple. And given the number of people who use welders now, I'm in the majority.
If that upsets you, then you have my apologies, but I have no intention of changing my playstyle because some other people say so. Sling all the insults you want. When people start using /kill in-game, insult them too. Keep insulting them thinking that they'll change how they'll play - and when they leave for good, you won't have to insult them anymore.
Sound fair?
It's not about that, it's about fades (and skulks) becoming almost useless against late game a3 armory every room marines. You HAVE to retreat before you're able to kill even one person (most of the time) if the marines are playing right, then they're at full hp again. Yeah, no.
Team Resouce Welders.
Then the selfish boys like you can get welded and none of you has to lose your precious 5 res.
I wonder if you buy mines? I'm guessing not, because they're boring and delay your shotgun... Never mind that they're an amazing bonus for your team that helps you gain more res in the long run. And welders are definitely not like that either. Right?
This must be why exos in game have been typing /kill every time they get low health. I mean no one welds them ever. They cant even weld themselves. Rookies NEVER play exos for this reason. Get rid of the unit entirely. It drives ALL PLAYERS AWAY! I mean who wants to have to play as a team. This game is all about me when i play and you arent my concern. Only my fun and what i see as fun /end sarcasm.
There is no skill requirement to the welder. What you are searching for to describe this is upping the teamwork element. Damn the devs for forcing something like that... It amazes me you argue that no one will buy the welder or it is a res sink. When the aliens damage structures in base you have to buy a welder... Do you think structures should auto heal to prevent you from using 5 Pres? Your arguments and fictitious examples are exaggerated and highly situation/the worst scenario to give grounds to your pointless arguments. If there is an element that is hard to grasp by a new player then make sure to add something to help that, dont just remove it.
It's like saying fades are too easy to kill so let's give the marines fewer bullets. How about instead you buff fade health and/or armor? The former affects EVERY marine encounter, while the latter only impacts fades. Onos have no problems killing marines, but now they will be even easier to kill with this change. Screwing with how marines heal is NOT the answer to alien problems.
How about two words: FREE welders. If you want people to weld, give everyone a welder in slot 4 when they spawn. I have said I would have no problem with that. I still don't like it, but I wouldn't hate it like I do the current option.
Cute. If marines can afford to go EXO then the marines are rolling in res. If a player can't afford a welder than the comm can. However, in the early/mid game resources are precious, and every person who pays this 'welder tax' will end up pushing back their progression to better weapons.
The proposal *IS* a res sink. If it was not you would be willing to give them away for free. Are you? Sorry it got really quiet all of a sudden.
I'm sure there will be plenty of people who will buy welders, and there will be plenty more who will not. Good luck trying to balance for that.
My point is that this will increase the skill curve of the game. It's hard enough as it is to get new players up to speed and you want to make it harder? This is why I have repeatedly advocated for a 'hard mode' so that people could put in all these stupid ideas like making people buy welders. Hey, put in a hard mode and charge per bullet too. Go nuts. If you want to bring new people into the game you can't keep upping the difficultly level like this.
Just don't be surprised if you see the player base continue to drop off the way you're going. I can't give away the last copy of the game I bought to give away. (during the last sale) People either own it or they tried it and didn't like it.
Like I said, this isn't about me. Sling all the insults you want since they don't faze me in the least. My point has always been about the general player base. How does this impact THEM? Have you even considered that for a microsecond? Because it sure doesn't look that way to me.
Or is the plan to insult the hell out of any player in game who objects to this hoping they'll come around to your point of view. Hmmm.. Lemme know how that works out. Since it's not working that well here.