has anyone actually seen savant on the bt mod servers, or is he still theorycrafting after testing for 15 minutes with 3-4 people?
the reason i ask is because we've still been repeating the same redundant record for weeks, even though it's almost unnoticible in the mod. it's comical - all this fuss over the most minor change in the mod.
+ 3-5 seconds to wait before the kill command kills you
Which game are you playing? I've never waited more than 2, and that's if the server is slow.
Because you really think the kill command will stay without a timer? In all the games I played with a kill command, there was a timer to prevent abuse from it, and there is already some in NS2. It would be crazy not to have one and a very bad mechanism to keep ingame if you are a minimum serious and care about your game. The same apply with the "stuck" command
I really miss the action going on with HA and welders, the waves of attack, and then the wave of welding each others to prevent any of us from dying, it was so much tense, so much exciting.
And Valve explained it numerous times: to keep the entertainment alive and push it more and more, to increase the experience, you have to alternate big moments of action with moment of more calm. This way, the moments of action/fun are even more funnier, it multiplies everything.
If you have 50% of action in a nearly flat curve all the time, it always stays the same. But if you go to 75% and then 25% all the time, the experience is greatly improved.
The game could also simply keep track of the armor that someone had when he left the game to the ready room or dies from a suicide of any kind and make the player respawn with that armor instead of full next time he joins/respawns.
Suddenly your entire exploit got blown to bits.
Especially as another paid for upgrade, seriously paid for upgrades are stupid, they take potentially fun bits of gameplay and stop you using them arbitrarily for half the game. Furthermore they all have to be 'balanced' around costing increasingly stupid amounts of money, which means that you tend to suck if you don't have them or be overpowered if you do. Takes the skill out of the game when it boils down to who has the most tres dumped into their class upgrades.
A paid for armor regen upgrade is either going to be boring, overpowered, useless, or yet another mandatory res sink, possibly multiple of the above.
Really? Boring is an option in your list? Must have been running out of arguments to fill it with.
Then teach me about the unexplored excitement that Carapace is.
The upgrade is purely situational and the cost is adequate, imho. It costs 20 res right now.
It is situational because it won't give you any advantage during the actual combat. It can patch you up a bit for the next fight in the early game when you are just trying to hold a position until the commander can establish an actual outpost or send reinforcements.
Depending on the time between alien attacks, you might get enough armor healed to survive one more bite and it can probably save you from dying in only two bites after being parasited, so it's somewhat on par with Armor 1.
The upgrade is also researched in the Arms Lab, so you delay other tech by going for it, which adds another balancing factor.
It is not meant to be a full replacement to Welder or MAC support, but it adds a little bit more potential survivability for a lone undercover marine who sneaks around the enemy side of the map. During an actual ongoing fight won't the armor regeneration make much of a difference, so you still need other forms of welding.
But sure, feel free to make an opinion of it before even having seen it in action. People who condemn stuff purely based on what they read in a changelog are the reason why some developers don't publish any actual changelog before a patch is released.
Like I said, this isn't about me. Sling all the insults you want since they don't faze me in the least. My point has always been about the general player base. How does this impact THEM? Have you even considered that for a microsecond? Because it sure doesn't look that way to me.
Ok, let's get this straight. You do not know what Rookies are thinking or what is best for them. Your examples are purely your experiences and all of them seem terrible. The common denominator is you. Heck, maybe you are so bad at the game you bring your whole team down, i dont know, but we have to look at what we do know. You have been around a long long time and have a very bias point of view. So have i (you longer)and i have the an opposite but equally as bias point of view. I believe in the "player" and their ability to adapt and overcome. I do not coddle rookies but i do go out of my way to make sure they know what is going on. An informed Rookie can become a skilled player with practice.
To answer your question about free welders, yes i think they should be free. Just like the upgrade in NS1 with Hand Grenades. You start with it once researched, but i am not ready to share my idea since it has a lot more too it. Let's just say the welder as it is now couldnt be free. It is to good since it is infinite and has no overheat feature. Even gorges cant heal forever even with a shift next to them, why should the welder? because it costs res.
Look, we may not agree on a lot if anything but one thing is sure. We hate change. Gotcha. It will be hard and there will be growing pains, but if we can get marines to not be so dependent on Structures and more dependent on one another, wont that just further increase game play as a whole? There only needs to be one welder in a group of 4. The person welding can drop it to get welded and retrieve it once complete. This is what we did in NS1 and will again do in NS2. It wont break the game, it will instead force people to stick in groups which is what they should be doing anyway.
It's not about that, it's about fades (and skulks) becoming almost useless against late game a3 armory every room marines. You HAVE to retreat before you're able to kill even one person (most of the time) if the marines are playing right, then they're at full hp again.
And how is that ANY different than trying to kill a fade that blinks/shadowsteps away, heals at a nearby crag and comes back? Healing is part of the game.
Except they're a 50 res unit, and marines are 0 res that use a 10 tres building to be better.
Yes, because what if by the time you die someone else die?
Not if that tactic is so damn good that everyone will use it.
Yeah anything is possible. But you're still trying to argue against something that people really won't care about when they do it. I may pay attention to spawn queues, but do you think average Joe will?
I'm not saying this is what I think people *should* do. I'm saying this is what people *will* do. Now you're totally free to disagree, but I've seen it before. You can't impose a playstyle on people. Either they will get around it or they will just stop playing.
Because you really think the kill command will stay without a timer?
You know what? For all we know some servers may remove /kill all together or otherwise screw over that option. You're absolutely right. So what does that mean? I find another server. Plenty of vanilla ones out there.
I really miss the action going on with HA and welders, the waves of attack, and then the wave of welding each others to prevent any of us from dying, it was so much tense, so much exciting.
If this is so exciting, let's add it on the alien side, hmmm? Only gorges can repair armor. Gives them a great role, and costs aliens resources. Why confine the 'welding excitement' to only the marines? Spread the love.
Look, we may not agree on a lot if anything but one thing is sure. We hate change. Gotcha.
No, you don't 'got me'. Ask yourself this... Have you see any protests from me in the main mod thread? Hmmm? No? Ask yourself why. Why would I fight so hard against this *ONE* change, and nothing else in the BT mod? Why? This has nothing to do with other changes in the mod. I've seen many of the changes and they look quite interesting.
The issue here is that this change undermines a fundamental game principle - that being there should be a 'free' means of repairing and rearming. That's why I would put aside my objections if marines spawned with a welder in slot 4. While I hate to weld, I would accept the change if it was less intrusive. Right now it's a tax on weaker players. Better skilled players won't need to buy as many welders, in the pubs they'll be spending WAY more on welders since they will be dying more often and losing them more often. That means more marines running around with no armor, meaning they become easier to kill and have an even HARDER time playing the game and staying alive. Not to mention fewer weapon upgrades since they are spending so much on welders.
Again, this comes down to fundamental game principles here. People should get free heals across the board or not. You can't say one team gets free heals and the other doesn't. In my opinion it is a game breaking change, especially given how hard the game is to play already, this makes it that much harder.
It wont break the game, it will instead force people to stick in groups which is what they should be doing anyway.
No, it won't. The sooner you and others understand this the better. You can't FORCE people to play a certain way. You just can't. People shouldn't be running off alone as marines now, yet they do. ALL THE TIME. Despite it being better to go in groups, average players don't bother. Do you really think that will change?
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.
@Savant I have overwhelming evidence that it will work. NS1. The game you played for years and because of bought NS2 when it was just an engine test. I never saw anyone complain in NS about not having armor all the time not to mention lifeforms were MUCH tougher, smaller, and harder to hit. The game will survive and improve because of this minor change.
@Savant I have overwhelming evidence that it will work. NS1. The game you played for years and because of bought NS2 when it was just an engine test.
That's like comparing apples and oranges. NS1 and NS2 are so different in so many ways. The primary aspect that blows yours argument out of the water is that in NS1 marines had NO PERSONAL RES. Welders were 'free' since only the commander could drop them. They 'cost' an individual marine nothing. Furthermore the marine economy was so strong you could be completely competitive with only two res nodes. Try doing that in NS2. A comm can barely afford upgrades let alone to drop welders at will.
As I said before, the mechanic is less what I object to than the cost. Hand out free welders and my objections come to an end.
Otherwise we're probably best just agreeing to disagree.
PS: This will be my last post on this subject, since we're really beating a dead horse. I'll take followups as PMs, but there isn't much point replying further as my opinion on the subject won't be changing.
Yes, because what if by the time you die someone else die?
Not if that tactic is so damn good that everyone will use it.
Yeah anything is possible. But you're still trying to argue against something that people really won't care about when they do it. I may pay attention to spawn queues, but do you think average Joe will?
I'm not saying this is what I think people *should* do. I'm saying this is what people *will* do. Now you're totally free to disagree, but I've seen it before. You can't impose a playstyle on people. Either they will get around it or they will just stop playing.
It's exactly what I say, they will do it, and then stop after seeing it has no good effect, same as NS1. We cant impose a playstyle to people, but if that playstyle never pay out, it will impose by itself, that's exactly what I am saying since the beginning.
Because you really think the kill command will stay without a timer?
You know what? For all we know some servers may remove /kill all together or otherwise screw over that option. You're absolutely right. So what does that mean? I find another server. Plenty of vanilla ones out there.
I really miss the action going on with HA and welders, the waves of attack, and then the wave of welding each others to prevent any of us from dying, it was so much tense, so much exciting.
If this is so exciting, let's add it on the alien side, hmmm? Only gorges can repair armor. Gives them a great role, and costs aliens resources. Why confine the 'welding excitement' to only the marines? Spread the love.
why are people still debating with savant on this? he's already made up his mind, his arguments have all been refuted but he persists because he has determined that no legitimate, logical reasoning can persuade him otherwise. please, let's just leave off of trying to talk to him.
+ 3-5 seconds to wait before the kill command kills you
Which game are you playing? I've never waited more than 2, and that's if the server is slow.
Because you really think the kill command will stay without a timer? In all the games I played with a kill command, there was a timer to prevent abuse from it, and there is already some in NS2. It would be crazy not to have one and a very bad mechanism to keep ingame if you are a minimum serious and care about your game. The same apply with the "stuck" command
I really miss the action going on with HA and welders, the waves of attack, and then the wave of welding each others to prevent any of us from dying, it was so much tense, so much exciting.
And Valve explained it numerous times: to keep the entertainment alive and push it more and more, to increase the experience, you have to alternate big moments of action with moment of more calm. This way, the moments of action/fun are even more funnier, it multiplies everything.
If you have 50% of action in a nearly flat curve all the time, it always stays the same. But if you go to 75% and then 25% all the time, the experience is greatly improved.
never played an fps with a timered kill command... what abuse? you're dead, it's the ultimate debuff. I remember in wolf:et, some servers set suicide to be disabled for a time after taking damage... so you'd overprime grenades instead. and the spawn timer on that could be as much as 20 seconds.
The game could also simply keep track of the armor that someone had when he left the game to the ready room or dies from a suicide of any kind and make the player respawn with that armor instead of full next time he joins/respawns.
Suddenly your entire exploit got blown to bits.
Especially as another paid for upgrade, seriously paid for upgrades are stupid, they take potentially fun bits of gameplay and stop you using them arbitrarily for half the game. Furthermore they all have to be 'balanced' around costing increasingly stupid amounts of money, which means that you tend to suck if you don't have them or be overpowered if you do. Takes the skill out of the game when it boils down to who has the most tres dumped into their class upgrades.
A paid for armor regen upgrade is either going to be boring, overpowered, useless, or yet another mandatory res sink, possibly multiple of the above.
Really? Boring is an option in your list? Must have been running out of arguments to fill it with.
Then teach me about the unexplored excitement that Carapace is.
The upgrade is purely situational and the cost is adequate, imho. It costs 20 res right now.
It is situational because it won't give you any advantage during the actual combat. It can patch you up a bit for the next fight in the early game when you are just trying to hold a position until the commander can establish an actual outpost or send reinforcements.
Depending on the time between alien attacks, you might get enough armor healed to survive one more bite and it can probably save you from dying in only two bites after being parasited, so it's somewhat on par with Armor 1.
The upgrade is also researched in the Arms Lab, so you delay other tech by going for it, which adds another balancing factor.
It is not meant to be a full replacement to Welder or MAC support, but it adds a little bit more potential survivability for a lone undercover marine who sneaks around the enemy side of the map. During an actual ongoing fight won't the armor regeneration make much of a difference, so you still need other forms of welding.
But sure, feel free to make an opinion of it before even having seen it in action. People who condemn stuff purely based on what they read in a changelog are the reason why some developers don't publish any actual changelog before a patch is released.
Alien upgrades are... currently necessarily pay-to-unlock because the whole game has that tech progression thing going on, but they work probably the best out of any of the upgrade mechanisms because once you make the relatively minor downpayment, they are free to use. They also offer options, do you go carapace and be more survivable, do you go regen and be able to stay out in the field longer, it is purely down to how you want to choose your playstyle.
Marine upgrades are very different, the commander dumps a significant chunk of res into them, everyone gets them, they just make marines universally better, there's no choice or impact on gameplay beyond that, the marines are just better now, deal with it.
They're incredibly boring, what's even worse is that the game is balanced around them, you can rush them to gain a rather heavy advantage in the early game, and you lose without them later on. They aren't optional, they're a necessary thing you have to get in order to not lose. At least alien upgrades give you a little choice in what to go for first.
If you want an example of a stupid upgrade mechanic on the alien side, you have lifeform abilities. I sure love having the basic functions of my class locked out until the commander can dump some valuable tres into unlocking them, especially if I'm playing a class that isn't the most overpowered at the stage of the game we're at, and as such will never see most of my upgrades because the comm is too busy dumping them into skulk at the start or fade in the middle or gorge if he realises the marines have a lot of buildings or something.
Marines don't need any more cash dumps to make them more powerful, they already heavily outclass skulks and most of the functionality of lerks, simply by existing with weapons and armor 3.
If you want to make armor repairs actually fun and you simply must remove the current mechanic of deciding whether to fall back to an armory, make welders free and unlocked from the start, make them function differently to the axe in terms of being able to kill structures, and introduce a method of welding yourself that requires you to put your weapon down to do so and takes maybe 10 seconds to fix 100 armor. That way marines have to make themselves vulnerable and may not wish to do so, but if they want that to be their playstyle they can choose to do it, you trade combat effectiveness (consider buffing the axe somewhat to compensate, or give it some sort of utility function, currently it's nearly useless other than as an ammo saver) for a new ability. You are picking the abilities you want to have to play the way you want to play, that is the point of customisation and these are actual meaningful decisions you're making as well, you need to make it so that people may actually miss what they give up in order to have the things they want.
why are people still debating with savant on this? he's already made up his mind, his arguments have all been refuted but he persists because he has determined that no legitimate, logical reasoning can persuade him otherwise. please, let's just leave off of trying to talk to him.
You do realize that exact same thing can be said of your side? This thread is two walls shouting at each other, neither budging.
why are people still debating with savant on this? he's already made up his mind, his arguments have all been refuted but he persists because he has determined that no legitimate, logical reasoning can persuade him otherwise. please, let's just leave off of trying to talk to him.
also, savant is using cheap tactics in this discussion. almost every good point that's been made in the thread; he replies by paraphrasing a portion of the post and ignoring the bits which are difficult to refute.
i can be unspecific as well; "go back in the thread you will see reference of that".
I do not get the comparisons to NS1. Yes they have similarities but didn't NS1 have HMG, Heavy armor, and jetpacks that were extremely mobile? All of that is missing for the marine in NS2 and exos are not adequate enough as a substitute. So many other features for aliens are missing as well. I wonder why people are trying to turn NS2 into NS1 even though that was not the intention of the devs or else they would have made the exact same game with upgraded graphics so you have to be reasonable. If they bring all those aspects from NS1 back into the game then yes the comparison can be made. Not saying it would not work in NS2 just wondering why NS1 is being used as proof of it working when the games have different features and balance.
From what I have heard, combat was very popular in the NS1 community. Popular enough to overtake the game. Perhaps it had game play more attractive to the average players so you have to ask yourself what the majority want in game maybe through in game poll or other methods. Self weld/armory healing armor mods was popular for a reason as well.
With that said, as of now I can see the armory being extremely annoying as an alien when trying to take out entrenched points. If NS2 had perfect players with games where everyone was mannerly this change would be great. It might be that way in games where you invite your friends and play with select people but in pubs the situation is different for some games. As of now you need to account for those bad players that horde pres and do not want to waste it on welders, do not want to weld to place themselves at risk to weld or frankly have welders but waits for you to die to take your stuff. They exist and downplaying them will not get rid of the frustration they can potentially cause to the game. Pubs are pubs and are looked down upon compared to gathers/ comp games for a reason. Bad enough with the trolls out there right now.
I have seen quite a few people being ok with free welders in the 4th slot. Of course if that's the case, making the welders weaker by not popping cysts, clogs as fast etc to accommodate every marine having a welder. People preaching about team work should not have problems because good team members will weld and bad team mates will go off on their own and die anyways. Plus you get rid of the armory armor healing and confusion new players might have about the system since they see they have a welder/others players welding.
Although I am curious as to what is stopping marines from going back to the armory for health when they lose a little bit of it. If part of the reason for the change was that people go back to the armories after ever encounter to repair armor/health, what's to stop them from going back when they lose a little health since they are more vulnerable?
Sounds like you never played NS1... so you have no business saying anything on the topic brought up comparing the SEQUEL to the original. Go educate yourself first.
From what I have heard, combat was very popular in the NS1 community. Popular enough to overtake the game. Perhaps it had game play more attractive to the average players so you have to ask yourself what the majority want in game maybe through in game poll or other methods. Self weld/armory healing armor mods was popular for a reason as well.
There is a reason why Combat was more popular. It took all the things that made NS unique and left them on the cutting room floor for a wider appeal, DM game. Sure a lot of people played combat, but a good portion of them rarely played NS classic. So, if you gave people without the attention span a route to "shoot aliens" and not have to play the game, it isn't surprising that the niche game would get less attention and the mod that basically "let you eat dessert without eating dinner first" would have a bigger following.
I rarely played combat; but I always played on a server that had a big community of regulars that all played the game well. If i only had random pubs to play on back in the day, I probably wouldn't be here right now.
The pres of med packs seem to be going in the direction of a higher cost and it's not like the com can just spam them like nuts early game where there are other expenses that are necessary. People right now are running past them and straight for the armory even when other players have welders.
The pres of med packs seem to be going in the direction of a higher cost and it's not like the com can just spam them like nuts early game where there are other expenses that are necessary. People right now are running past them and straight for the armory even when other players have welders.
Sounds like a player problem, not a game problem. I hear this in my job a lot because we have to deal with people who blame us when they screw up... you can't fix stupid.
The pres of med packs seem to be going in the direction of a higher cost and it's not like the com can just spam them like nuts early game where there are other expenses that are necessary. People right now are running past them and straight for the armory even when other players have welders.
Sounds like a player problem, not a game problem. I hear this in my job a lot because we have to deal with people who blame us when they screw up... you can't fix stupid.
I guess. I sort of want the changes in to see how the community reacts. Either more team work happens or pubs become a mess. Should be interesting.
The game wont break. As i said above somewhere, exos stay alive just fine with 0 ways to heal themselves players will adapt.
You yourself agreed to having free but weaker welders for all. The only argument I make is one to take into account the problem of those players that make games feel frustrating. Yea you can't fix stupid but you can compensate for them.
why not just make welders 3 pres instead of 5 or something, this eliminates armory humping for armor but also does not punish players buying welders to repair armor for fellow mates as hard
Alternatively make them free BUT the comm has to research them for 20 res or so, delaying an upgrade. This means players aren't punished by being forced to use welders but it doesn't give everyone a really awesome tool for free.
Because god knows players can't be allowed to have anything awesome for free, we have to charge for that.
I really don't like that mode of thinking, why on earth do people feel the need to lock all the fun mechanics and tools in the game behind resource barriers?
It's like playing call of duty only you can't actually unlock anything for more than about 30 minutes before you have to unlock it again, and you can't pick what you unlock, and if you die you lose it.
has anyone actually seen savant on the bt mod servers, or is he still theorycrafting after testing for 15 minutes with 3-4 people?
the reason i ask is because we've still been repeating the same redundant record for weeks, even though it's almost unnoticible in the mod. it's comical - all this fuss over the most minor change in the mod.
Then its decided.
An unnoticeable change is not worth possibly alienating more "independent" minded players. Good thread guys.
Yeah why not have shotguns available for free once researched? I mean, why lock it behind a res barrier.
I think that's sarcastic but honestly, why aren't they?
Obviously at the moment they're just better than LMGs, but wouldn't the game be more fun if they were simply a useful alternative?
Less damaging than they are now perhaps, but still easier to hit with, especially close up. Trading the chance to kill an alien at long distance before it even hits you, for better odds when it gets into attack range. Also perhaps trading effectiveness against armor for that too.
It seems kind of a vicious cycle honestly, free stuff can't be good, because it invalidates the paid stuff otherwise, but paid stuff has to be expensive, because it's good.
So you're left with most of the time spent using stuff that's crap. Why not make things different but useful rather than simply better? That way everything can be useful and maybe even fun.
Like I said, for welders, you could make them an alternative to the axe rather than a straight upgrade, being able to restore durability in the field is useful, and kinda of a nice ability to have, but the ability to kill cysts/structures easily would also be a good ability, as would perhaps a better rifle swing attack (let marines tape the axe onto the rifle if they have it or something) so which do you pick? Give players meaningful choices between their equipment beyond 'it's too expensive' which is currently the only thing that stops everyone using dual minigun exos all the time.
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the reason i ask is because we've still been repeating the same redundant record for weeks, even though it's almost unnoticible in the mod. it's comical - all this fuss over the most minor change in the mod.
Not if that tactic is so damn good that everyone will use it.
Because you really think the kill command will stay without a timer? In all the games I played with a kill command, there was a timer to prevent abuse from it, and there is already some in NS2. It would be crazy not to have one and a very bad mechanism to keep ingame if you are a minimum serious and care about your game. The same apply with the "stuck" command
I really miss the action going on with HA and welders, the waves of attack, and then the wave of welding each others to prevent any of us from dying, it was so much tense, so much exciting.
And Valve explained it numerous times: to keep the entertainment alive and push it more and more, to increase the experience, you have to alternate big moments of action with moment of more calm. This way, the moments of action/fun are even more funnier, it multiplies everything.
If you have 50% of action in a nearly flat curve all the time, it always stays the same. But if you go to 75% and then 25% all the time, the experience is greatly improved.
Suddenly your entire exploit got blown to bits.
Really? Boring is an option in your list? Must have been running out of arguments to fill it with.
Then teach me about the unexplored excitement that Carapace is.
The upgrade is purely situational and the cost is adequate, imho. It costs 20 res right now.
It is situational because it won't give you any advantage during the actual combat. It can patch you up a bit for the next fight in the early game when you are just trying to hold a position until the commander can establish an actual outpost or send reinforcements.
Depending on the time between alien attacks, you might get enough armor healed to survive one more bite and it can probably save you from dying in only two bites after being parasited, so it's somewhat on par with Armor 1.
The upgrade is also researched in the Arms Lab, so you delay other tech by going for it, which adds another balancing factor.
It is not meant to be a full replacement to Welder or MAC support, but it adds a little bit more potential survivability for a lone undercover marine who sneaks around the enemy side of the map. During an actual ongoing fight won't the armor regeneration make much of a difference, so you still need other forms of welding.
But sure, feel free to make an opinion of it before even having seen it in action. People who condemn stuff purely based on what they read in a changelog are the reason why some developers don't publish any actual changelog before a patch is released.
Ok, let's get this straight. You do not know what Rookies are thinking or what is best for them. Your examples are purely your experiences and all of them seem terrible. The common denominator is you. Heck, maybe you are so bad at the game you bring your whole team down, i dont know, but we have to look at what we do know. You have been around a long long time and have a very bias point of view. So have i (you longer)and i have the an opposite but equally as bias point of view. I believe in the "player" and their ability to adapt and overcome. I do not coddle rookies but i do go out of my way to make sure they know what is going on. An informed Rookie can become a skilled player with practice.
To answer your question about free welders, yes i think they should be free. Just like the upgrade in NS1 with Hand Grenades. You start with it once researched, but i am not ready to share my idea since it has a lot more too it. Let's just say the welder as it is now couldnt be free. It is to good since it is infinite and has no overheat feature. Even gorges cant heal forever even with a shift next to them, why should the welder? because it costs res.
Look, we may not agree on a lot if anything but one thing is sure. We hate change. Gotcha. It will be hard and there will be growing pains, but if we can get marines to not be so dependent on Structures and more dependent on one another, wont that just further increase game play as a whole? There only needs to be one welder in a group of 4. The person welding can drop it to get welded and retrieve it once complete. This is what we did in NS1 and will again do in NS2. It wont break the game, it will instead force people to stick in groups which is what they should be doing anyway.
Except they're a 50 res unit, and marines are 0 res that use a 10 tres building to be better.
Yeah anything is possible. But you're still trying to argue against something that people really won't care about when they do it. I may pay attention to spawn queues, but do you think average Joe will?
I'm not saying this is what I think people *should* do. I'm saying this is what people *will* do. Now you're totally free to disagree, but I've seen it before. You can't impose a playstyle on people. Either they will get around it or they will just stop playing.
You know what? For all we know some servers may remove /kill all together or otherwise screw over that option. You're absolutely right. So what does that mean? I find another server. Plenty of vanilla ones out there.
If this is so exciting, let's add it on the alien side, hmmm? Only gorges can repair armor. Gives them a great role, and costs aliens resources. Why confine the 'welding excitement' to only the marines? Spread the love.
No, you don't 'got me'. Ask yourself this... Have you see any protests from me in the main mod thread? Hmmm? No? Ask yourself why. Why would I fight so hard against this *ONE* change, and nothing else in the BT mod? Why? This has nothing to do with other changes in the mod. I've seen many of the changes and they look quite interesting.
The issue here is that this change undermines a fundamental game principle - that being there should be a 'free' means of repairing and rearming. That's why I would put aside my objections if marines spawned with a welder in slot 4. While I hate to weld, I would accept the change if it was less intrusive. Right now it's a tax on weaker players. Better skilled players won't need to buy as many welders, in the pubs they'll be spending WAY more on welders since they will be dying more often and losing them more often. That means more marines running around with no armor, meaning they become easier to kill and have an even HARDER time playing the game and staying alive. Not to mention fewer weapon upgrades since they are spending so much on welders.
Again, this comes down to fundamental game principles here. People should get free heals across the board or not. You can't say one team gets free heals and the other doesn't. In my opinion it is a game breaking change, especially given how hard the game is to play already, this makes it that much harder.
No, it won't. The sooner you and others understand this the better. You can't FORCE people to play a certain way. You just can't. People shouldn't be running off alone as marines now, yet they do. ALL THE TIME. Despite it being better to go in groups, average players don't bother. Do you really think that will change?
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.
As I said before, the mechanic is less what I object to than the cost. Hand out free welders and my objections come to an end.
Otherwise we're probably best just agreeing to disagree.
PS: This will be my last post on this subject, since we're really beating a dead horse. I'll take followups as PMs, but there isn't much point replying further as my opinion on the subject won't be changing.
On a modded server you mean.
Yeah yeah, I know what you did there
Same for the rest of the post anyway.
never played an fps with a timered kill command... what abuse? you're dead, it's the ultimate debuff. I remember in wolf:et, some servers set suicide to be disabled for a time after taking damage... so you'd overprime grenades instead. and the spawn timer on that could be as much as 20 seconds.
Alien upgrades are... currently necessarily pay-to-unlock because the whole game has that tech progression thing going on, but they work probably the best out of any of the upgrade mechanisms because once you make the relatively minor downpayment, they are free to use. They also offer options, do you go carapace and be more survivable, do you go regen and be able to stay out in the field longer, it is purely down to how you want to choose your playstyle.
Marine upgrades are very different, the commander dumps a significant chunk of res into them, everyone gets them, they just make marines universally better, there's no choice or impact on gameplay beyond that, the marines are just better now, deal with it.
They're incredibly boring, what's even worse is that the game is balanced around them, you can rush them to gain a rather heavy advantage in the early game, and you lose without them later on. They aren't optional, they're a necessary thing you have to get in order to not lose. At least alien upgrades give you a little choice in what to go for first.
If you want an example of a stupid upgrade mechanic on the alien side, you have lifeform abilities. I sure love having the basic functions of my class locked out until the commander can dump some valuable tres into unlocking them, especially if I'm playing a class that isn't the most overpowered at the stage of the game we're at, and as such will never see most of my upgrades because the comm is too busy dumping them into skulk at the start or fade in the middle or gorge if he realises the marines have a lot of buildings or something.
Marines don't need any more cash dumps to make them more powerful, they already heavily outclass skulks and most of the functionality of lerks, simply by existing with weapons and armor 3.
If you want to make armor repairs actually fun and you simply must remove the current mechanic of deciding whether to fall back to an armory, make welders free and unlocked from the start, make them function differently to the axe in terms of being able to kill structures, and introduce a method of welding yourself that requires you to put your weapon down to do so and takes maybe 10 seconds to fix 100 armor. That way marines have to make themselves vulnerable and may not wish to do so, but if they want that to be their playstyle they can choose to do it, you trade combat effectiveness (consider buffing the axe somewhat to compensate, or give it some sort of utility function, currently it's nearly useless other than as an ammo saver) for a new ability. You are picking the abilities you want to have to play the way you want to play, that is the point of customisation and these are actual meaningful decisions you're making as well, you need to make it so that people may actually miss what they give up in order to have the things they want.
also, savant is using cheap tactics in this discussion. almost every good point that's been made in the thread; he replies by paraphrasing a portion of the post and ignoring the bits which are difficult to refute.
i can be unspecific as well; "go back in the thread you will see reference of that".
From what I have heard, combat was very popular in the NS1 community. Popular enough to overtake the game. Perhaps it had game play more attractive to the average players so you have to ask yourself what the majority want in game maybe through in game poll or other methods. Self weld/armory healing armor mods was popular for a reason as well.
With that said, as of now I can see the armory being extremely annoying as an alien when trying to take out entrenched points. If NS2 had perfect players with games where everyone was mannerly this change would be great. It might be that way in games where you invite your friends and play with select people but in pubs the situation is different for some games. As of now you need to account for those bad players that horde pres and do not want to waste it on welders, do not want to weld to place themselves at risk to weld or frankly have welders but waits for you to die to take your stuff. They exist and downplaying them will not get rid of the frustration they can potentially cause to the game. Pubs are pubs and are looked down upon compared to gathers/ comp games for a reason. Bad enough with the trolls out there right now.
I have seen quite a few people being ok with free welders in the 4th slot. Of course if that's the case, making the welders weaker by not popping cysts, clogs as fast etc to accommodate every marine having a welder. People preaching about team work should not have problems because good team members will weld and bad team mates will go off on their own and die anyways. Plus you get rid of the armory armor healing and confusion new players might have about the system since they see they have a welder/others players welding.
Although I am curious as to what is stopping marines from going back to the armory for health when they lose a little bit of it. If part of the reason for the change was that people go back to the armories after ever encounter to repair armor/health, what's to stop them from going back when they lose a little health since they are more vulnerable?
Sounds like you never played NS1... so you have no business saying anything on the topic brought up comparing the SEQUEL to the original. Go educate yourself first.
There is a reason why Combat was more popular. It took all the things that made NS unique and left them on the cutting room floor for a wider appeal, DM game. Sure a lot of people played combat, but a good portion of them rarely played NS classic. So, if you gave people without the attention span a route to "shoot aliens" and not have to play the game, it isn't surprising that the niche game would get less attention and the mod that basically "let you eat dessert without eating dinner first" would have a bigger following.
I rarely played combat; but I always played on a server that had a big community of regulars that all played the game well. If i only had random pubs to play on back in the day, I probably wouldn't be here right now.
The pres of med packs seem to be going in the direction of a higher cost and it's not like the com can just spam them like nuts early game where there are other expenses that are necessary. People right now are running past them and straight for the armory even when other players have welders.
Sounds like a player problem, not a game problem. I hear this in my job a lot because we have to deal with people who blame us when they screw up... you can't fix stupid.
I guess. I sort of want the changes in to see how the community reacts. Either more team work happens or pubs become a mess. Should be interesting.
You yourself agreed to having free but weaker welders for all. The only argument I make is one to take into account the problem of those players that make games feel frustrating. Yea you can't fix stupid but you can compensate for them.
I really don't like that mode of thinking, why on earth do people feel the need to lock all the fun mechanics and tools in the game behind resource barriers?
It's like playing call of duty only you can't actually unlock anything for more than about 30 minutes before you have to unlock it again, and you can't pick what you unlock, and if you die you lose it.
Then its decided.
An unnoticeable change is not worth possibly alienating more "independent" minded players. Good thread guys.
I think that's sarcastic but honestly, why aren't they?
Obviously at the moment they're just better than LMGs, but wouldn't the game be more fun if they were simply a useful alternative?
Less damaging than they are now perhaps, but still easier to hit with, especially close up. Trading the chance to kill an alien at long distance before it even hits you, for better odds when it gets into attack range. Also perhaps trading effectiveness against armor for that too.
It seems kind of a vicious cycle honestly, free stuff can't be good, because it invalidates the paid stuff otherwise, but paid stuff has to be expensive, because it's good.
So you're left with most of the time spent using stuff that's crap. Why not make things different but useful rather than simply better? That way everything can be useful and maybe even fun.
Like I said, for welders, you could make them an alternative to the axe rather than a straight upgrade, being able to restore durability in the field is useful, and kinda of a nice ability to have, but the ability to kill cysts/structures easily would also be a good ability, as would perhaps a better rifle swing attack (let marines tape the axe onto the rifle if they have it or something) so which do you pick? Give players meaningful choices between their equipment beyond 'it's too expensive' which is currently the only thing that stops everyone using dual minigun exos all the time.