Well at least I'll have something to have a look at on wednesday actually.
At the moment I'm just enjoying watching Forlorn get owned on the Aussie forums <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Aegeri+Nov 25 2003, 09:12 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Aegeri @ Nov 25 2003, 09:12 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Well at least I'll have something to have a look at on wednesday actually.
At the moment I'm just enjoying watching Forlorn get owned on the Aussie forums <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, I got owned... </cynicism>
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->How come R18 isn't in NSPC tourney?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not too sure actually why they haven't joined it. Possibly because right now NZ clans are having problems with inactivity as we've just finished exams. While this tournament was going on we were having school and university exams.
Basically because R18 is both an Aussie and NZ clan.
HAMBoneProbably the best CommanderJoin Date: 2003-04-02Member: 15139Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
<!--QuoteBegin--Martigen+Nov 24 2003, 11:36 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Martigen @ Nov 24 2003, 11:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Absolutely. I've noticed in some US games that there isn't always a lot of node dominance. For us, node dominance is key. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Good post mart. Only thing I wanted to comment on was this quote, node dominance is what its all about for just about every clan in the USA. I have seen clans that are willing to only hold 2-3 nodes but I never really understood why and I really dont think thats the norm.
Both, slow **** upgrades for marines, and stf had exceptionally terrible skulking (very little parasiting, bait and switch tatics, ambushing was barely there, lots of suicide rushes on base etc.)
And the "Grand Final" of stf vs. [XP]:
Slow slow slow upgrades, I saw that [XP] doesn't believe in armor one and would rather drop random CCs to make sure they can spawn in seperated and weak... stf believes in 3 turrets at the start will do a marine base good (and armor lv. 1 6 min into the game..! dear lord), I saw that [XP] continually shotty rushed even though they died in 2 measily hits and they barely got any medspam...
stf's aliens had no teamwork, I feel confidant enough to say, lots of hero skulks, very little parasiting, fades who were usually attacking nodes (READ: Not the best use of a fade), if [XP] didn't botch up the marine game so badly stf would have lost hands down. [XP] had courned stf in their base and with a little carefully applied pressure the hive would have cracked open like a fresh walnut. You know, like some armor upgrades in conjuction with, an HA shotgun rush would have killed stf easily, less fruitless spending on extra IP's and commchairs is generally a smart move. Stf's main way of killing marines as skulks was to generally rush them head on, maybe after a pause or two (not usually), getting owned in the process, and the only way they got kills was when [XP] missed. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> On the other hand, I saw much better skulking from [XP], who effectivly had the early game with just skulks alone, I don't know why they stopped scouting on stf's marines after a little bit, and the one fade who was needed everywhere at once did pretty good, aside from the fact he died, and also aside from the fact the aliens only had one fade... you know, two fades can cover a lot more ground than one. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> And at the end, when [XP] was assulting stf's base with the works (onos, fades, etc.) I nearly fell asleep it was so boring.
I think [XP] could be a great clan if they worked on refinement, they seem to have skill but they just misuse their resources.
The same goes for stf, but more so for [XP], [XP] misuses their res so badly but has quite a bit of skill, I think that if they had a better plan [XP] and more coordination they would be #1.
<!--QuoteBegin--MonKey-TurD+Nov 25 2003, 09:18 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MonKey-TurD @ Nov 25 2003, 09:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> gee forlorn, did we do ANYTHING right?! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You guys had some decent aim!
But didn't I say that already?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->[XP] misuses their res so badly but has quite a bit of skill<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, I thought I did...
You guys have solid aim, work on your tatics and I could see [XP] being the #1 Aus clan in no time.
rofl forlon, u really have no **** idea, just learn to SUYF. if u think XP have good aim, then watch everlast r18 hybrid, if u want bhoping watch the same 3 again. just about every clan will back me up on them comments (i hope <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->) but it takes teamwork. ive had enough of your ****. i (and hopefully everyone else downunder) dont really give 2 **** what u think.
anyway, wd xp and stf to making it to the finals. and wd to stf for winning overall =] cant wait for the next tournament =]
no offense to them, but XP don't have the sharpest aim or the speediest bunny hop in the community
doesn't mean theyre not a great team <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Forlorn everything I have replied to so far has been in relation to your comments on the last two game stf and XP have played. Not the best games, no, both sides said this right at the start (how many times must I say this to get in your head?) and like any clan, there are good and bad games. Found the last round boring? So did we, in fact no one was playing seriously at all. The tournament was won, neither side wanted to play the last round but we did anway, so it was a muck around game. If you had read my prior post, you would know this. And while you pull apart tactics for each side, you make no mention of stf's marine win killing two hives in 7 mins with a relocation and without essential upgrades (yet if you watch previous NSPC demos you'll note we use them often and to great effect). And you don't mention XP's excellent resource control which had them come back and win marines even tho stf shutdown their early rushes.
What you fail to understand Forlorn is that every match is played for the map and for the clan. In one game we might go upgrades as soon as possible, in another we might go for a reloc and a rush. You sit there and judge the validity of a clan's tactics when you have no idea about the previous experience the two clans have had with eachother, and the weaknesses they know to exploit.
It seems that what is merely in truth <i>differen't</i> you see as <i>wrong</i>. You seem incapable of comprehending that there are other strategies and tactics to win the game, and no matter how much negative commentary you provide about them it doesn't change the fact that they work. One draw and six 2-0 wins out of seven games, just in one tournament, show this clearly.
Let me quote my recent replies so you can, again, understand a little of what you saw and if you really want to offer advice, try watching ten demos instead of two. And for the sake of everyone here, stop being an arrogant bumhole about it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If you want to analyse tactics, please do it over more than just two matches. And the last round wasn't a round at all, we had already won due to coming first in match points in the tourney, so neither side played the last round properly, it was just a muck around (something it seems only Kavasa noticed). And you mention mines for base D? Download any of our prior demos and you'll see just how well we use mines -- but this game, no, we didn't and we didn't need to either. The rush on both hives was all that was needed. And as for an armory? What do you need an armory at the start for? We play to dominate nodes, and that's also another 15 res for another early node. Base def is fine with turrets and marines, and then mines come out when the armory is dropped. No, the armory normally isn't that late, but again those games were not our best play and XP did a great job keeping the pressure up. You forgo a TF in your strats and invest that res into nodes, we forgo an armory and invest that res into nodes. Both strategies work fine. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I do not disagree on the value of an armory, but I do disagree with your almighty righteous dictation that you need one at the start. You spend 35 res (at least, as you have to replace mines) on armory + mines. We spend 35 res on tf + 2 turrets, which don't need to be replaced and which generate R4K, and even provides the option of electricity if we feel like denying the aliens the nodes closest to them. I'll repeat again since you missed it the first time around: normally we delay the armory only a minute or two, and the payoff is well worth it. That one game you've watched to-judge-all-others-by the armory was delayed longer due to great pressure by XP. In fact if you bothered to rejoin after the server crashed you'd see our armory going down early as we geared up for a sudden rush which we knew XP wouldn't be expecting.
It seems, unlike your playstyle, we can adapt to circumstance and maximise the potential of the map. But go right ahead, keep on assuming your way is the best way and the only way. Unlike you I recognise the value of multiple and different strategies, and as I've demonstrated we mix and match accordingly. And we win. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
SuBAusNS Forum AdminJoin Date: 2003-02-18Member: 13723Members
I really have been quite bemused with the overbearing arrogance of your views as of late... I didn't know people were capable of having their own head so far up their ****, but hey, now I know it really is possible.
On the whole I don't disagree with you... they're all probably entirely valid viewpoints... but maybe it all comes down to none of us taking quite as seriously as you do. The strategies that we use work against the strategies and capacities of the teams we're playing against, and we may only have a handful of players who could really compete with some of your top US clanners in terms of aim and bhopping, but the antagonistic nature of your posts and your blatant disregard for any other factors is quite disheartening.
You guys have I think somewhere in the vicinity of 230 million to our 19 million population... that's a far greater pool of dedicated gamers to choose from, and thus a far greater percentage of players with top tier skill. I think it all boils down to having far fewer people who take the game as seriously as you do, and far fewer people who are willing to put the amount of time and effort into becoming that good.
To your credit you have quite a pool of exceptionally skilled players... and I commend them for their efforts, and I can appreciate that when the top clans are made up of so many of these high calibre players, the minimalistic strategies you're such a proponent of are where it's at.
We have a few clans who have to a large extent the same level of aim and bhopping skills, notably Hybrid, R18 and to some extent Everlast. The funny thing is, we've beaten both Hybrid and Everlast with our strategies even when they have had the edge over us in the aim and bhopping department, purely by solid strategy and counters. This doesn't detract from them at all... they are both top tier teams, but at the end of the day we managed to gain an edge over them with planning and teamwork, and it's quite a relief to me that NS is a game where strategy and teamwork is just as important as "elite" aim and bhopping.
As I said, I don't think you are wrong, I just think you're so overbearing with your views that it's hard to take any advice from them without the natural human urge inherent in everybody when they don't wish to be insulted. Your advice could have been conveyed much more effectively if it wasn't so littered with blatant discredit.
The aussie strats are in my mind wrong. I can just see better faster more efficient ways to do things. But it wasn't so long ago americans were trying to build elect tfs at the bottom of Station access to "lockdown" the map ns_eclipse so im sure in time it will move on. Either that or im wrong which is entirely possible even though im not <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
SuBAusNS Forum AdminJoin Date: 2003-02-18Member: 13723Members
edited November 2003
<!--QuoteBegin--[SiD]Squishy+Nov 26 2003, 01:01 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([SiD]Squishy @ Nov 26 2003, 01:01 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The aussie strats are in my mind wrong. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> How can you say a strat is wrong when it results in a string of 2-0 victories?
As I said, we've tried the tech rush to JP/HA, and there's a chance it not working for us has a lot to do with the relative skill level of each clan, but we've found stuff that does work for us and does get us 2-0 wins consistently.
I just can't comprehend the elitism that is so evident in some of the posts made here.
there is no wrong strat....it might seem less effective to you, but it might be more effective to us, and with strats there is some risk in using them, but thats a risk you have to take
you go for your early jps and HA's, what happens if the jp rush is shot down? because there is OC's on the hive etc, to be honest i thought we were screwed as marines when the shotgun rush failed at the start, but we somehow managed to come back because of res domination, and res is the key to everything, its a res domination, not hives, sure 3 hives will prob own marines, but its possible to come back from 3 hives, i've done so a few times as a marine com, by just camping with 5 HA's and full upgrades
we, XP, know we aren't the best shooters, or the best bhops ( infact we can't bhop) we aren't the most skillful players, and we adapt out tatics to the way we feel suit is the best, so can you please not bash our tatics and say how bad we are, forlon made some valid points though, and we have actually taken some note into them, so most likely we will be in our experimental stage again just don't bash us, because its really getting on our nerves, the aus community, when a person comes into this post and abuses and says how sh!t we are
I felt my post was nicer then forlorns <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->How can you say a strat is wrong when it results in a string of 2-0 victories? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because the people your playing are even wronger?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->there is no wrong strat....it might seem less effective to you, but it might be more effective to us, and with strats there is some risk in using them, but thats a risk you have to take <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There are variants of ways to do things in this game yes. But there are some that are vastly more efficient then others.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->you go for your early jps and HA's, what happens if the jp rush is shot down? because there is OC's on the hive <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We practice this alot so we don't get shot down. Also a com who practices medspam constantly helps alot. And I don't think an american clan who scouts a hive and sees lots of ots would just charge in blindly with jps.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->we, XP, know we aren't the best shooters, or the best bhops ( infact we can't bhop) we aren't the most skillful players, and we adapt out tatics to the way we feel suit is the best, so can you please not bash our tatics and say how bad we are, forlon made some valid points though, and we have actually taken some note into them, so most likely we will be in our experimental stage again just don't bash us, because its really getting on our nerves, the aus community, when a person comes into this post and abuses and says how sh!t we are <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think I ever really bashed you. I just feel that my strats would be more effective then yours. I also mentioned that americans went through a strat transitional stage for awhile. And some clans still do experiment quite abit including mine.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I just can't comprehend the elitism that is so evident in some of the posts made here.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well I don't need a flaming war so i'll leave this one alone.
<!--QuoteBegin--HAMBONE+Nov 25 2003, 07:04 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (HAMBONE @ Nov 25 2003, 07:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Martigen+Nov 24 2003, 11:36 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Martigen @ Nov 24 2003, 11:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Absolutely. I've noticed in some US games that there isn't always a lot of node dominance. For us, node dominance is key. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Good post mart. Only thing I wanted to comment on was this quote, node dominance is what its all about for just about every clan in the USA. I have seen clans that are willing to only hold 2-3 nodes but I never really understood why and I really dont think thats the norm. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Agreed.
Hmm, Lots of varied posts on this thread :/ although most of them seem to be very condisending. Just voice your opinion and if the other person does not like your opinion drop it. There is no reason to keep pushing any type of idea on someone if they are not willing to listen. I'm talking to mostly everyone on this thread <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->are willing to only hold 2-3 nodes but I never really understood why and I really dont think thats the norm.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Only clan I've seen get wins with that was sYn. :o
I should qualify that, however, by stating that they never let the aliens have more than one node, and sometimes not even that - and they only really ran the strat that aggressively on veil, so.
I think the main reason us Aussies are appearing so defencive, is because of the partonising attitude that we're getting from our American counterparts. We've been playing NS just as long as you guys. I fail to see how you guys have had more time to go through "transitions" for your strats.
I think the only way to solve this is to see how the International tournament folds out.
This is the same post I made on nsplayer.com, slightly edited because it was originally written as a rebuttal to another post but I still think it's relevant here (Plus martigen asked me to say it here too <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->):
Ok, I'll go through this fairly slowly, but hopefully it'll let you see what we're on about. Let's say the marine team focuses on controlling res nodes and pressuring alien res nodes at the expense of their own upgrades. The alien skulk saving to fade doesn't get his res as fast and is left without the ability to fade longer. The other potential fades have been placed with the tough decision of having 3 or 4 late fades, or 1 or 2 slightly faster fades as that res has to be put into rebuilding the res towers the marines have killed. Generally the decision if the marines have good pressure is that the aliens need the support of fades quickly as marines tech up to win and hence they give up their 4 fades for getting the 2 on time.
So now through keeping alien res under control you have effectively both delayed fades in general and stopped one or two of the potential fades. Now of cause aliens will also be fighting for these res nodes, so this is assuming a successful marine assault (If marines can't make any progress with a res controlling strat then of cause they need to change for the circumstances, maybe the other team's skulking is far too superior? This is why having a backup plan is vital which I'm sure is something you understand fine).
So you wonder why both teams are slower to make their moves? Because both sides in Aussie clan matches are from my understanding focussing much more heavily on putting pressure on res nodes (Meaning for some clans investments in turrets to allow the base guards to get out and help) and both slowing eachother down more. You criticise both sides for being slow to act, yet do you consider why? Many aussie teams on marines instead of acting fast themself they slow their own progress in an attempt to hinder the other team even more. The marines are trying to gain dominance of res to the extent they can slow the overwhelming higher tier alien assaults until they are able to effectively counter them.
It's also because marines make these sacrifices attempting to hold aliens at bay that the aliens know the late-game flow of resources is 100% vital for marines and you often see fades blinking around the map and taking out marine res nodes.
I'm not saying our strategies are right and yours are wrong, I'm just saying that some of you seem to show a distinct misunderstanding of how/why we do what we do. Your tactics work in the US? Great, use them. Over here they don't work. Whether it's the style of the opposition or the lack of talent in our players who's to say, but the tactics have not worked for these clans in the past so they have modified their styles to adapt to this and found how they play today. And once again, same attitude, our tactics work in Australia? Great, use them. Over in the US the same tactics don't work? Hrm... does this sound about the same as what we've had to say about your tactics?
Agree to disagree, give suggestions instead of critique. I'm sure the Aussies would've been much more welcoming if you'd came out saying "That's a very differnt style of play to us over here in the USA, it seems to be a bit slower and maybe ya should try a few of the ideas used over here? Have you guys ever considered <Stick tactics here>?", and you may have even had them incorporating a few ideas you proposed into trial strategies for prac matches. I'm not saying they'd say you were right, probably they'd maintain about the same oppinion, but we certainly would not have a flame-war.
Nah, only reason to watch r18 is to watch the XP guy in it <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--_JP_+Nov 26 2003, 09:32 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (_JP_ @ Nov 26 2003, 09:32 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> pffft australia. R18 will be the clan to watch 8) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I'd watch Zen instead, they have numerous nuts players and if they get the tactics down they have a real shot at winning that tournament.
I find it rather funny that I am being called on for starting a flame war, when in reality no such thing has happened and the only personal insults which have been thrown have been done by the alleged people who claim I have started a flame war.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I just can't comprehend the elitism that is so evident in some of the posts made here. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Comments like these are what starts flame wars. Elitism? Try honest feedback and if you are gonna jump all over us for doing so it puts a real good impression on youself.
Just because you've feel insulted, doesn't mean it's a flame war, flames are when you personally attack someone, there is no such thing coming from me at all. I suppose that's why this thread is still open, eh?
I also cannot understand why you guys are so picky to critism, I mean, it's not like I'm picking on a newly formed clan that's getting it's act together, supposedly these are top clans of austrilia and taking a little fire on your tatics is hardly a bad thing. Getting feedback is more or less a good thing.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Ok, I'll go through this fairly slowly, but hopefully it'll let you see what we're on about. Let's say the marine team focuses on controlling res nodes and pressuring alien res nodes at the expense of their own upgrades. The alien skulk saving to fade doesn't get his res as fast and is left without the ability to fade longer. The other potential fades have been placed with the tough decision of having 3 or 4 late fades, or 1 or 2 slightly faster fades as that res has to be put into rebuilding the res towers the marines have killed. Generally the decision if the marines have good pressure is that the aliens need the support of fades quickly as marines tech up to win and hence they give up their 4 fades for getting the 2 on time.
So now through keeping alien res under control you have effectively both delayed fades in general and stopped one or two of the potential fades. Now of cause aliens will also be fighting for these res nodes, so this is assuming a successful marine assault (If marines can't make any progress with a res controlling strat then of cause they need to change for the circumstances, maybe the other team's skulking is far too superior? This is why having a backup plan is vital which I'm sure is something you understand fine). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You aren't going to stop any fades. What will happen is the fades who were saving to go fade will go fade. Of course, in the matches I saw the aliens get pressured, the skulks just kept going gorge and dropping replaced nodes... what a waste. It makes more sense to get more firepower to try to protect your nodes, not to drop more nodes. If you couldn't save your nodes the first time, what makes you think you'll save them a second time with the same skulks? With a fade, you can easily use it as a body guard to pressure the marines and keep your nodes alive. So again, this is more bad strategy on your part... spending the res you have been hoarding on more nodes is not only stupid, but will cause you to lose more games as aliens in the long run...
If they were saving for 4 fades, you might have 3 due to a heavy node rush, if you were saving for 3 fades, you might now have 2, but the bottem line is that fades will always come, no matter what as long as the game lasts a minimum of 6 min or so. (Unless you manage to kill their res node at their starting hive as well)
Also, I have to say the fact that aliens get pressured so hard in the begaining of your games is due to the fact that the skulks have somewhere around zero teamwork, as they tend to become hero skulks and do one skulk wonders such as killing 2-3 marines at once or charge 1 marine at the end of a long hallway.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm not saying our strategies are right and yours are wrong, I'm just saying that some of you seem to show a distinct misunderstanding of how/why we do what we do. Your tactics work in the US? Great, use them. Over here they don't work. Whether it's the style of the opposition or the lack of talent in our players who's to say, but the tactics have not worked for these clans in the past so they have modified their styles to adapt to this and found how they play today. And once again, same attitude, our tactics work in Australia? Great, use them. Over in the US the same tactics don't work? Hrm... does this sound about the same as what we've had to say about your tactics? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This isn't true at all. Tatics in NS are universal. There is no logical reason why something could work in the USA/Europe leagues but not in the Aus leagues.
I personally think that your strats differ from ours simply because you haven't had the same amount of hardcore conditioning that most American/EU clans have gotten. Between these two continents, the amount of gamers are huge, and all of the people over here have just rapidly exploited this game to it's fullest in ever manner possible and out of the rough the diamond strats have emerged. I guess you guys won't understand them untill you see them firsthand.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->We have a few clans who have to a large extent the same level of aim and bhopping skills, notably Hybrid, R18 and to some extent Everlast. The funny thing is, we've beaten both Hybrid and Everlast with our strategies even when they have had the edge over us in the aim and bhopping department, purely by solid strategy and counters. This doesn't detract from them at all... they are both top tier teams, but at the end of the day we managed to gain an edge over them with planning and teamwork, and it's quite a relief to me that NS is a game where strategy and teamwork is just as important as "elite" aim and bhopping. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Any demos of you guys vs. Hybrid or R18?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So did we, in fact no one was playing seriously at all. The tournament was won, neither side wanted to play the last round but we did anway, so it was a muck around game.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So I guess I shouldn't critize your clan games, but your league. Why would a league ever be setup so that one team could win before the final match?
Doesn't sorta kill the entire purpose of the tournament? Your 'grand final' match should have been called a fun event then, because that's all you guys make it out to be. I am personally eager to see what will happen in our CAL finals. I don't think the clans that make it to it will just shrug it off either. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So I guess I shouldn't critize your clan games, but your league. Why would a league ever be setup so that one team could win before the final match?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Careful that comes close to not only insulting the clan under question but every single clan that participated in that league, the organisers and any sponsers they have.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Doesn't sorta kill the entire purpose of the tournament? Your 'grand final' match should have been called a fun event then, because that's all you guys make it out to be.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If XP beat stf 2-0 then XP would of been #1. It's still a grand-final where both teams can loose so i have no idea where you got that idea from. The event was over after stf won the first round, but to accomodate the 50+ spectators and just to have FUN they continued.
<!--QuoteBegin--SilverAx+Nov 26 2003, 01:55 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SilverAx @ Nov 26 2003, 01:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Doesn't sorta kill the entire purpose of the tournament? Your 'grand final' match should have been called a fun event then, because that's all you guys make it out to be.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If XP beat stf 2-0 then XP would of been #1. It's still a grand-final where both teams can loose so i have no idea where you got that idea from. The event was over after stf won the first round, but to accomodate the 50+ spectators and just to have FUN they continued. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Okay, so then I was right in saying the tatics used by [XP] were terrible and had they focused just a *WEEE BIT* more on upgrades they probably could have won that easily. You guys never even got armor lv. 1 for crying out loud... the most cost effective upgrade in the game.
Boy I cannot wait for the international matches <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
A lot of talk going on but what about the walk? <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Comments
At the moment I'm just enjoying watching Forlorn get owned on the Aussie forums <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
At the moment I'm just enjoying watching Forlorn get owned on the Aussie forums <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, I got owned... </cynicism>
How come R18 isn't in NSPC tourney?
Not too sure actually why they haven't joined it. Possibly because right now NZ clans are having problems with inactivity as we've just finished exams. While this tournament was going on we were having school and university exams.
Basically because R18 is both an Aussie and NZ clan.
Good post mart. Only thing I wanted to comment on was this quote, node dominance is what its all about for just about every clan in the USA. I have seen clans that are willing to only hold 2-3 nodes but I never really understood why and I really dont think thats the norm.
Everlast vs. stf:
Both, slow **** upgrades for marines, and stf had exceptionally terrible skulking (very little parasiting, bait and switch tatics, ambushing was barely there, lots of suicide rushes on base etc.)
And the "Grand Final" of stf vs. [XP]:
Slow slow slow upgrades, I saw that [XP] doesn't believe in armor one and would rather drop random CCs to make sure they can spawn in seperated and weak... stf believes in 3 turrets at the start will do a marine base good (and armor lv. 1 6 min into the game..! dear lord), I saw that [XP] continually shotty rushed even though they died in 2 measily hits and they barely got any medspam...
stf's aliens had no teamwork, I feel confidant enough to say, lots of hero skulks, very little parasiting, fades who were usually attacking nodes (READ: Not the best use of a fade), if [XP] didn't botch up the marine game so badly stf would have lost hands down. [XP] had courned stf in their base and with a little carefully applied pressure the hive would have cracked open like a fresh walnut. You know, like some armor upgrades in conjuction with, an HA shotgun rush would have killed stf easily, less fruitless spending on extra IP's and commchairs is generally a smart move. Stf's main way of killing marines as skulks was to generally rush them head on, maybe after a pause or two (not usually), getting owned in the process, and the only way they got kills was when [XP] missed. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
On the other hand, I saw much better skulking from [XP], who effectivly had the early game with just skulks alone, I don't know why they stopped scouting on stf's marines after a little bit, and the one fade who was needed everywhere at once did pretty good, aside from the fact he died, and also aside from the fact the aliens only had one fade... you know, two fades can cover a lot more ground than one. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
And at the end, when [XP] was assulting stf's base with the works (onos, fades, etc.) I nearly fell asleep it was so boring.
I think [XP] could be a great clan if they worked on refinement, they seem to have skill but they just misuse their resources.
The same goes for stf, but more so for [XP], [XP] misuses their res so badly but has quite a bit of skill, I think that if they had a better plan [XP] and more coordination they would be #1.
You guys had some decent aim!
But didn't I say that already?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->[XP] misuses their res so badly but has quite a bit of skill<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, I thought I did...
You guys have solid aim, work on your tatics and I could see [XP] being the #1 Aus clan in no time.
anyway, wd xp and stf to making it to the finals. and wd to stf for winning overall =] cant wait for the next tournament =]
Special mention goes to R18POP and R18dude. These guys are insane.
doesn't mean theyre not a great team <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Forlorn everything I have replied to so far has been in relation to your comments on the last two game stf and XP have played. Not the best games, no, both sides said this right at the start (how many times must I say this to get in your head?) and like any clan, there are good and bad games. Found the last round boring? So did we, in fact no one was playing seriously at all. The tournament was won, neither side wanted to play the last round but we did anway, so it was a muck around game. If you had read my prior post, you would know this. And while you pull apart tactics for each side, you make no mention of stf's marine win killing two hives in 7 mins with a relocation and without essential upgrades (yet if you watch previous NSPC demos you'll note we use them often and to great effect). And you don't mention XP's excellent resource control which had them come back and win marines even tho stf shutdown their early rushes.
What you fail to understand Forlorn is that every match is played for the map and for the clan. In one game we might go upgrades as soon as possible, in another we might go for a reloc and a rush. You sit there and judge the validity of a clan's tactics when you have no idea about the previous experience the two clans have had with eachother, and the weaknesses they know to exploit.
It seems that what is merely in truth <i>differen't</i> you see as <i>wrong</i>. You seem incapable of comprehending that there are other strategies and tactics to win the game, and no matter how much negative commentary you provide about them it doesn't change the fact that they work. One draw and six 2-0 wins out of seven games, just in one tournament, show this clearly.
Let me quote my recent replies so you can, again, understand a little of what you saw and if you really want to offer advice, try watching ten demos instead of two. And for the sake of everyone here, stop being an arrogant bumhole about it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
If you want to analyse tactics, please do it over more than just two matches. And the last round wasn't a round at all, we had already won due to coming first in match points in the tourney, so neither side played the last round properly, it was just a muck around (something it seems only Kavasa noticed). And you mention mines for base D? Download any of our prior demos and you'll see just how well we use mines -- but this game, no, we didn't and we didn't need to either. The rush on both hives was all that was needed. And as for an armory? What do you need an armory at the start for? We play to dominate nodes, and that's also another 15 res for another early node. Base def is fine with turrets and marines, and then mines come out when the armory is dropped. No, the armory normally isn't that late, but again those games were not our best play and XP did a great job keeping the pressure up. You forgo a TF in your strats and invest that res into nodes, we forgo an armory and invest that res into nodes. Both strategies work fine.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
I do not disagree on the value of an armory, but I do disagree with your almighty righteous dictation that you need one at the start. You spend 35 res (at least, as you have to replace mines) on armory + mines. We spend 35 res on tf + 2 turrets, which don't need to be replaced and which generate R4K, and even provides the option of electricity if we feel like denying the aliens the nodes closest to them. I'll repeat again since you missed it the first time around: normally we delay the armory only a minute or two, and the payoff is well worth it. That one game you've watched to-judge-all-others-by the armory was delayed longer due to great pressure by XP. In fact if you bothered to rejoin after the server crashed you'd see our armory going down early as we geared up for a sudden rush which we knew XP wouldn't be expecting.
It seems, unlike your playstyle, we can adapt to circumstance and maximise the potential of the map. But go right ahead, keep on assuming your way is the best way and the only way. Unlike you I recognise the value of multiple and different strategies, and as I've demonstrated we mix and match accordingly. And we win.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
On the whole I don't disagree with you... they're all probably entirely valid viewpoints... but maybe it all comes down to none of us taking quite as seriously as you do. The strategies that we use work against the strategies and capacities of the teams we're playing against, and we may only have a handful of players who could really compete with some of your top US clanners in terms of aim and bhopping, but the antagonistic nature of your posts and your blatant disregard for any other factors is quite disheartening.
You guys have I think somewhere in the vicinity of 230 million to our 19 million population... that's a far greater pool of dedicated gamers to choose from, and thus a far greater percentage of players with top tier skill. I think it all boils down to having far fewer people who take the game as seriously as you do, and far fewer people who are willing to put the amount of time and effort into becoming that good.
To your credit you have quite a pool of exceptionally skilled players... and I commend them for their efforts, and I can appreciate that when the top clans are made up of so many of these high calibre players, the minimalistic strategies you're such a proponent of are where it's at.
We have a few clans who have to a large extent the same level of aim and bhopping skills, notably Hybrid, R18 and to some extent Everlast. The funny thing is, we've beaten both Hybrid and Everlast with our strategies even when they have had the edge over us in the aim and bhopping department, purely by solid strategy and counters. This doesn't detract from them at all... they are both top tier teams, but at the end of the day we managed to gain an edge over them with planning and teamwork, and it's quite a relief to me that NS is a game where strategy and teamwork is just as important as "elite" aim and bhopping.
As I said, I don't think you are wrong, I just think you're so overbearing with your views that it's hard to take any advice from them without the natural human urge inherent in everybody when they don't wish to be insulted. Your advice could have been conveyed much more effectively if it wasn't so littered with blatant discredit.
How can you say a strat is wrong when it results in a string of 2-0 victories?
As I said, we've tried the tech rush to JP/HA, and there's a chance it not working for us has a lot to do with the relative skill level of each clan, but we've found stuff that does work for us and does get us 2-0 wins consistently.
I just can't comprehend the elitism that is so evident in some of the posts made here.
you go for your early jps and HA's, what happens if the jp rush is shot down? because there is OC's on the hive etc, to be honest i thought we were screwed as marines when the shotgun rush failed at the start, but we somehow managed to come back because of res domination, and res is the key to everything, its a res domination, not hives, sure 3 hives will prob own marines, but its possible to come back from 3 hives, i've done so a few times as a marine com, by just camping with 5 HA's and full upgrades
we, XP, know we aren't the best shooters, or the best bhops ( infact we can't bhop) we aren't the most skillful players, and we adapt out tatics to the way we feel suit is the best, so can you please not bash our tatics and say how bad we are, forlon made some valid points though, and we have actually taken some note into them, so most likely we will be in our experimental stage again
just don't bash us, because its really getting on our nerves, the aus community, when a person comes into this post and abuses and says how sh!t we are
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->How can you say a strat is wrong when it results in a string of 2-0 victories?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because the people your playing are even wronger?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->there is no wrong strat....it might seem less effective to you, but it might be more effective to us, and with strats there is some risk in using them, but thats a risk you have to take
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There are variants of ways to do things in this game yes. But there are some that are vastly more efficient then others.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->you go for your early jps and HA's, what happens if the jp rush is shot down? because there is OC's on the hive <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We practice this alot so we don't get shot down. Also a com who practices medspam constantly helps alot. And I don't think an american clan who scouts a hive and sees lots of ots would just charge in blindly with jps.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->we, XP, know we aren't the best shooters, or the best bhops ( infact we can't bhop) we aren't the most skillful players, and we adapt out tatics to the way we feel suit is the best, so can you please not bash our tatics and say how bad we are, forlon made some valid points though, and we have actually taken some note into them, so most likely we will be in our experimental stage again
just don't bash us, because its really getting on our nerves, the aus community, when a person comes into this post and abuses and says how sh!t we are <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think I ever really bashed you. I just feel that my strats would be more effective then yours. I also mentioned that americans went through a strat transitional stage for awhile. And some clans still do experiment quite abit including mine.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I just can't comprehend the elitism that is so evident in some of the posts made here.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well I don't need a flaming war so i'll leave this one alone.
Good post mart. Only thing I wanted to comment on was this quote, node dominance is what its all about for just about every clan in the USA. I have seen clans that are willing to only hold 2-3 nodes but I never really understood why and I really dont think thats the norm. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed.
Hmm, Lots of varied posts on this thread :/ although most of them seem to be very condisending. Just voice your opinion and if the other person does not like your opinion drop it. There is no reason to keep pushing any type of idea on someone if they are not willing to listen. I'm talking to mostly everyone on this thread <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->.
Only clan I've seen get wins with that was sYn. :o
I should qualify that, however, by stating that they never let the aliens have more than one node, and sometimes not even that - and they only really ran the strat that aggressively on veil, so.
I think the only way to solve this is to see how the International tournament folds out.
Ok, I'll go through this fairly slowly, but hopefully it'll let you see what we're on about. Let's say the marine team focuses on controlling res nodes and pressuring alien res nodes at the expense of their own upgrades. The alien skulk saving to fade doesn't get his res as fast and is left without the ability to fade longer. The other potential fades have been placed with the tough decision of having 3 or 4 late fades, or 1 or 2 slightly faster fades as that res has to be put into rebuilding the res towers the marines have killed. Generally the decision if the marines have good pressure is that the aliens need the support of fades quickly as marines tech up to win and hence they give up their 4 fades for getting the 2 on time.
So now through keeping alien res under control you have effectively both delayed fades in general and stopped one or two of the potential fades. Now of cause aliens will also be fighting for these res nodes, so this is assuming a successful marine assault (If marines can't make any progress with a res controlling strat then of cause they need to change for the circumstances, maybe the other team's skulking is far too superior? This is why having a backup plan is vital which I'm sure is something you understand fine).
So you wonder why both teams are slower to make their moves? Because both sides in Aussie clan matches are from my understanding focussing much more heavily on putting pressure on res nodes (Meaning for some clans investments in turrets to allow the base guards to get out and help) and both slowing eachother down more. You criticise both sides for being slow to act, yet do you consider why? Many aussie teams on marines instead of acting fast themself they slow their own progress in an attempt to hinder the other team even more. The marines are trying to gain dominance of res to the extent they can slow the overwhelming higher tier alien assaults until they are able to effectively counter them.
It's also because marines make these sacrifices attempting to hold aliens at bay that the aliens know the late-game flow of resources is 100% vital for marines and you often see fades blinking around the map and taking out marine res nodes.
I'm not saying our strategies are right and yours are wrong, I'm just saying that some of you seem to show a distinct misunderstanding of how/why we do what we do. Your tactics work in the US? Great, use them. Over here they don't work. Whether it's the style of the opposition or the lack of talent in our players who's to say, but the tactics have not worked for these clans in the past so they have modified their styles to adapt to this and found how they play today. And once again, same attitude, our tactics work in Australia? Great, use them. Over in the US the same tactics don't work? Hrm... does this sound about the same as what we've had to say about your tactics?
Agree to disagree, give suggestions instead of critique. I'm sure the Aussies would've been much more welcoming if you'd came out saying "That's a very differnt style of play to us over here in the USA, it seems to be a bit slower and maybe ya should try a few of the ideas used over here? Have you guys ever considered <Stick tactics here>?", and you may have even had them incorporating a few ideas you proposed into trial strategies for prac matches. I'm not saying they'd say you were right, probably they'd maintain about the same oppinion, but we certainly would not have a flame-war.
I'd watch Zen instead, they have numerous nuts players and if they get the tactics down they have a real shot at winning that tournament.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I just can't comprehend the elitism that is so evident in some of the posts made here. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Comments like these are what starts flame wars. Elitism? Try honest feedback and if you are gonna jump all over us for doing so it puts a real good impression on youself.
Just because you've feel insulted, doesn't mean it's a flame war, flames are when you personally attack someone, there is no such thing coming from me at all. I suppose that's why this thread is still open, eh?
I also cannot understand why you guys are so picky to critism, I mean, it's not like I'm picking on a newly formed clan that's getting it's act together, supposedly these are top clans of austrilia and taking a little fire on your tatics is hardly a bad thing. Getting feedback is more or less a good thing.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Ok, I'll go through this fairly slowly, but hopefully it'll let you see what we're on about. Let's say the marine team focuses on controlling res nodes and pressuring alien res nodes at the expense of their own upgrades. The alien skulk saving to fade doesn't get his res as fast and is left without the ability to fade longer. The other potential fades have been placed with the tough decision of having 3 or 4 late fades, or 1 or 2 slightly faster fades as that res has to be put into rebuilding the res towers the marines have killed. Generally the decision if the marines have good pressure is that the aliens need the support of fades quickly as marines tech up to win and hence they give up their 4 fades for getting the 2 on time.
So now through keeping alien res under control you have effectively both delayed fades in general and stopped one or two of the potential fades. Now of cause aliens will also be fighting for these res nodes, so this is assuming a successful marine assault (If marines can't make any progress with a res controlling strat then of cause they need to change for the circumstances, maybe the other team's skulking is far too superior? This is why having a backup plan is vital which I'm sure is something you understand fine).
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You aren't going to stop any fades. What will happen is the fades who were saving to go fade will go fade. Of course, in the matches I saw the aliens get pressured, the skulks just kept going gorge and dropping replaced nodes... what a waste. It makes more sense to get more firepower to try to protect your nodes, not to drop more nodes. If you couldn't save your nodes the first time, what makes you think you'll save them a second time with the same skulks? With a fade, you can easily use it as a body guard to pressure the marines and keep your nodes alive. So again, this is more bad strategy on your part... spending the res you have been hoarding on more nodes is not only stupid, but will cause you to lose more games as aliens in the long run...
If they were saving for 4 fades, you might have 3 due to a heavy node rush, if you were saving for 3 fades, you might now have 2, but the bottem line is that fades will always come, no matter what as long as the game lasts a minimum of 6 min or so. (Unless you manage to kill their res node at their starting hive as well)
Also, I have to say the fact that aliens get pressured so hard in the begaining of your games is due to the fact that the skulks have somewhere around zero teamwork, as they tend to become hero skulks and do one skulk wonders such as killing 2-3 marines at once or charge 1 marine at the end of a long hallway.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm not saying our strategies are right and yours are wrong, I'm just saying that some of you seem to show a distinct misunderstanding of how/why we do what we do. Your tactics work in the US? Great, use them. Over here they don't work. Whether it's the style of the opposition or the lack of talent in our players who's to say, but the tactics have not worked for these clans in the past so they have modified their styles to adapt to this and found how they play today. And once again, same attitude, our tactics work in Australia? Great, use them. Over in the US the same tactics don't work? Hrm... does this sound about the same as what we've had to say about your tactics? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This isn't true at all. Tatics in NS are universal. There is no logical reason why something could work in the USA/Europe leagues but not in the Aus leagues.
I personally think that your strats differ from ours simply because you haven't had the same amount of hardcore conditioning that most American/EU clans have gotten. Between these two continents, the amount of gamers are huge, and all of the people over here have just rapidly exploited this game to it's fullest in ever manner possible and out of the rough the diamond strats have emerged. I guess you guys won't understand them untill you see them firsthand.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->We have a few clans who have to a large extent the same level of aim and bhopping skills, notably Hybrid, R18 and to some extent Everlast. The funny thing is, we've beaten both Hybrid and Everlast with our strategies even when they have had the edge over us in the aim and bhopping department, purely by solid strategy and counters. This doesn't detract from them at all... they are both top tier teams, but at the end of the day we managed to gain an edge over them with planning and teamwork, and it's quite a relief to me that NS is a game where strategy and teamwork is just as important as "elite" aim and bhopping.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Any demos of you guys vs. Hybrid or R18?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So did we, in fact no one was playing seriously at all. The tournament was won, neither side wanted to play the last round but we did anway, so it was a muck around game.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So I guess I shouldn't critize your clan games, but your league. Why would a league ever be setup so that one team could win before the final match?
Doesn't sorta kill the entire purpose of the tournament? Your 'grand final' match should have been called a fun event then, because that's all you guys make it out to be. I am personally eager to see what will happen in our CAL finals. I don't think the clans that make it to it will just shrug it off either. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Careful that comes close to not only insulting the clan under question but every single clan that participated in that league, the organisers and any sponsers they have.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Doesn't sorta kill the entire purpose of the tournament? Your 'grand final' match should have been called a fun event then, because that's all you guys make it out to be.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If XP beat stf 2-0 then XP would of been #1. It's still a grand-final where both teams can loose so i have no idea where you got that idea from. The event was over after stf won the first round, but to accomodate the 50+ spectators and just to have FUN they continued.
If XP beat stf 2-0 then XP would of been #1. It's still a grand-final where both teams can loose so i have no idea where you got that idea from. The event was over after stf won the first round, but to accomodate the 50+ spectators and just to have FUN they continued. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Okay, so then I was right in saying the tatics used by [XP] were terrible and had they focused just a *WEEE BIT* more on upgrades they probably could have won that easily. You guys never even got armor lv. 1 for crying out loud... the most cost effective upgrade in the game.
A lot of talk going on but what about the walk? <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->