Ah, my bad! I was totally reading that wrong. Your explanation makes it much more clear now <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> Sorry for making all those comments which did not apply. You're suggestion is interesting, I shall have to mull it over before I make a reply.
ThansalThe New ScumJoin Date: 2002-08-22Member: 1215Members, Constellation
edited June 2007
My counter point to <b>CForrester</b>'s idea is this:
The swear filter is not actualy there to hide young eyes from swearing. As you poitned out, any of us can figure out what some one was actualy saying despite any number of "#"s, or peopel can just dodge the filter. What it DOES do is encourage peopel to not use profanity/derogitory words as they know their post will get altered (or they will get warned/susspended/banned for dodging the filter).
To be perfectly honest I actualy swear less than I used to, and it is partialy because of the forums. It is also partialy as a backlash from dealing with the 12 year old twits on servers/other forums who can't express them selves above "that was ***", "**** you", "your (you're) a ****ing <pick your racial/ethnic/sexual epithet>". Switching between comunities where in most I see people just swearing, and in another I see honest to god conversations.
If you don't see it, you don't think it.
If you don't think it, you don't say it.
If you don't say it, some one else doesn't see it/think it/say it
Heck, I actualy type out and think WTH instead of what it is a filter for.
<!--quoteo(post=1632487:date=Jun 8 2007, 02:27 PM:name=Testament)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Testament @ Jun 8 2007, 02:27 PM) [snapback]1632487[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I swear a lot, and I never cared if my words got censored. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> ###### yeah!
I support the idea of an optional swear filter. I don't curse that much but I've got no problem with seeing it, and the entire existence of a mandatory swear filter seems to show a lack of trust in the community, see what I mean?
I don't really care all that much though I guess, I doubt changing it would really have a very big effect on the community. I think most of the people who would really notice the difference in what they can say (aka: they curse alot) have already left because of the filter.
<!--quoteo(post=1632493:date=Jun 8 2007, 02:40 PM:name=Xyth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Xyth @ Jun 8 2007, 02:40 PM) [snapback]1632493[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> the entire existence of a mandatory swear filter seems to show a lack of trust in the community, see what I mean? <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think they have pleanty of reason not to trust the community to use good judgement <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
<!--quoteo(post=1632495:date=Jun 8 2007, 02:44 PM:name=KainTSA)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(KainTSA @ Jun 8 2007, 02:44 PM) [snapback]1632495[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I think they have pleanty of reason not to trust the community to use good judgement <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> There would be no need for moderators if we could trust people online to use good judgement <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
<!--quoteo(post=1632493:date=Jun 8 2007, 11:40 AM:name=Xyth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Xyth @ Jun 8 2007, 11:40 AM) [snapback]1632493[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I support the idea of an optional swear filter. I don't curse that much but I've got no problem with seeing it, and the entire existence of a mandatory swear filter seems to show a lack of trust in the community, see what I mean? <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't trust you ###### any farther than I could ###### a ######.
*wow, good idea....* --Comprox And to answer your question, as we have stated before, the filter is not perfect. We're not here to try and censor every form of a word. Honestly half of the words in the list are just there from spam bot usage I would say. Most people don't even try and use them, unlike your post here.
<!--quoteo(post=1632475:date=Jun 8 2007, 12:39 PM:name=CForrester)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CForrester @ Jun 8 2007, 12:39 PM) [snapback]1632475[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> [optional swear filter idea goes here] <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> cpu load for a string search-and-replace at display time would make the forums even less stable than they are now (adds at least two queries for each page drawn along with the string/hash s&r function).
Soul_RiderMod BeanJoin Date: 2004-06-19Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1632438:date=Jun 8 2007, 04:27 PM:name=Comprox)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Comprox @ Jun 8 2007, 04:27 PM) [snapback]1632438[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> People pay much more attention when you don't talk like an angsty 15 year old kid <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So now you're discriminating against angsty 15 year old kids who want to post in the forums <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
I actually don't notice the swear filter generally, as i don't swear when typing, although it is really annoying when you type a legitimate word that just happens to have a censored word in the middle of it, but that really can't be avoided.
<!--quoteo(post=1634059:date=Jun 17 2007, 02:32 PM:name=Soul_Rider)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Soul_Rider @ Jun 17 2007, 02:32 PM) [snapback]1634059[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> ... although it is really annoying when you type a legitimate word that just happens to have a censored word in the middle of it, but that really can't be avoided. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually it can be avoided, since IPB has the option of doing exact word matches or matches within words. It would mean filling in multiple forms of words though.
Most of our filters are exact word matches only (ie. if the word run was censored, running would not be). It's not meant to catch everything, just meant to define the lines.
As for snatch, that got me thinking: if I start using every day words such as, say, "muffin" as a swear word, and other people joined the trend, they might end up in swear filters. We could cripple the language that way.
Matter of fact, this is what happened to words like "idiot" and "retard," although I don't think they're filtered anywhere. Used to be simple, mostly neutral words, now they're insults.
I think Battlestar Galactica tried to do that with "frack" and general kid-speak does it with "frick", so I don't really see much success in that endeavor.
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
edited June 2007
I don't know how many of you know of this really crappy australian soap called 'home and away' but in that they always say something like 'rack off you dag', and I always wondered if 'rack' and 'dag' were actual swear words in Australia, or of they were just polite substitutions in the way 'frack' is in BSG.
ThansalThe New ScumJoin Date: 2002-08-22Member: 1215Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1634244:date=Jun 18 2007, 11:24 AM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(puzl @ Jun 18 2007, 11:24 AM) [snapback]1634244[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I don't know how many of you know of this really crappy australian soap called 'home and away' but in that they always say something like 'rack off you dag', and I always wondered if 'rack' and 'dag' were actual swear words in Australia, or of they were just polite substitutions in the way 'frack' is in BSG. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The one that addmitedly did slip into my vocabulary is Frell. Thoguh I never say it nor type it, but I do tend to think it (one to many farscape marathon for me <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />)
KassingerShades of greyJoin Date: 2002-02-20Member: 229Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1634187:date=Jun 18 2007, 04:43 PM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lolfighter @ Jun 18 2007, 04:43 PM) [snapback]1634187[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> You can even say saltwater now!
As for snatch, that got me thinking: if I start using every day words such as, say, "muffin" as a swear word, and other people joined the trend, they might end up in swear filters. We could cripple the language that way.
Matter of fact, this is what happened to words like "idiot" and "retard," although I don't think they're filtered anywhere. Used to be simple, mostly neutral words, now they're insults. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well if all it takes to be a swearword is that it used where swearwords normally are used...well that give any reason to say swearwords are bad, does it?
Swearwords are <i>bad </i>because many find them either offensive or vulgar. Retard is bad because it's insensitive to those who really are retarded to be used as a derogatory term, just like using names for different ethnic groups is mean.
Words describing bodily functions, -excrements and specific organs are considered undelicate according to cultural norms.
<i>One Onos to another Onos: Get out of here, you Gorge!</i>
ThansalThe New ScumJoin Date: 2002-08-22Member: 1215Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1634255:date=Jun 18 2007, 12:30 PM:name=Kassinger)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Kassinger @ Jun 18 2007, 12:30 PM) [snapback]1634255[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Well if all it takes to be a swearword is that it used where swearwords normally are used...well that give any reason to say swearwords are bad, does it?
Swearwords are <i>bad </i>because many find them either offensive or vulgar. Retard is bad because it's insensitive to those who really are retarded to be used as a derogatory term, just like using names for different ethnic groups is mean.
Words describing bodily functions, -excrements and specific organs are considered undelicate according to cultural norms.
<i>One Onos to another Onos: Get out of here, you Gorge!</i> <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
well, there is nothing wrong with swear words. After all, words are just a collection of sounds or letters, nothing wrong with that, right?
However what is ment by them is what is the matter.
One of my favorite examples of this is the soccer mum who always says "Oh sugar" when something is going wrong.
We all know that there is no difference between what she means and what I mean when I say "Oh ****". So why is one bad and the other isn't?
My answer: They are both equaly wrong.
So if we were all to substitute Muffin for a common swear, I then think it should be in the swear filter.
KassingerShades of greyJoin Date: 2002-02-20Member: 229Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1634259:date=Jun 18 2007, 10:35 PM:name=Thansal)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Thansal @ Jun 18 2007, 10:35 PM) [snapback]1634259[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> well, there is nothing wrong with swear words. After all, words are just a collection of sounds or letters, nothing wrong with that, right?
However what is ment by them is what is the matter.
One of my favorite examples of this is the soccer mum who always says "Oh sugar" when something is going wrong.
We all know that there is no difference between what she means and what I mean when I say "Oh ****". So why is one bad and the other isn't?
My answer: They are both equaly wrong.
So if we were all to substitute Muffin for a common swear, I then think it should be in the swear filter. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I see I expressed myself poorly in my last post. I'll try to be more precise.
It so happens that words don't only mean what they are meant to convey, it has also something to do with the <i>association</i> people have with it. And when I said a word was bad, I meant it is found offensive by some. Your stance is a typical postmodern one, but you find "Oh sugar" and "Oh ####" equal only because you find neither offensive. If being sensitive to what other people perceive a word to convey means anything at all to you, they are in no way equal. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" /> As one who doesn't get offended by swearing myself, I still manage to understand that using such words in front of certain people shows a lack of respect for others.
Muffin won't function as a swear word before somebody actually finds it offensive.
ThansalThe New ScumJoin Date: 2002-08-22Member: 1215Members, Constellation
edited June 2007
<!--quoteo(post=1634286:date=Jun 18 2007, 02:04 PM:name=Kassinger)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Kassinger @ Jun 18 2007, 02:04 PM) [snapback]1634286[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I still manage to understand that using such words in front of certain people shows a lack of respect for others.
Muffin won't function as a swear word before somebody actually finds it offensive. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would point out that I fully understand why swearing in front of some people is a bad idea (I infact tend not to swear in general). My point is that simply swapping a few letters shouldn't (and in my mind doesn't) change the meaning of something. However I agree with you that most peopel don't have my view, I just always thoguht it was kinda hypocritical (the mother saying "oh sugar, I forgot the shopping list" right after scolding her kid for swearing)
Take this for instance:
IF I were to just flat out switch Muffin for a popular swear word, I am rather sure I could get people offended at me as I go around screaming "MUFFIN YOU" at people in the same inflection and situation where people would normaly be swearing. If I just walk up to my GF and tell her "muffin You" she would just give me a funny look and ignore it as one of my thousand random things, but If I were to get into an argument with some one and scream "MUFFIN YOU" at them they probably would hit me.
To sorta drag this back on topic: This is why I don't think the swear filter is effective and protecting virginal eyes (or what ever it is most poepl ethink it is there for), HOWEVER, I still think it is effective at getting peopel to swear less, and that counts for something in my mind.
<!--quoteo(post=1634290:date=Jun 18 2007, 08:19 PM:name=Thansal)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Thansal @ Jun 18 2007, 08:19 PM) [snapback]1634290[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I would point out that I fully understand why swearing in front of some people is a bad idea (I infact tend not to swear in general). My point is that simply swapping a few letters shouldn't (and in my mind doesn't) change the meaning of something.
Take this for instance:
IF I were to just flat out switch Muffin for a popular swear word, I am rather sure I could get people offended at me as I go around screaming "MUFFIN YOU" at people in the same inflection and situation where people would normaly be swearing. If I just walk up to my GF and tell her "muffin You" she would just give me a funny look and ignore it as one of my thousand random things, but If I were to get into an argument with some one and scream "MUFFIN YOU" at them they probably would hit me.
To sorta drag this back on topic: This is why I don't think the swear filter is effective and protecting virginal eyes (or what ever it is most poepl ethink it is there for), HOWEVER, I still think it is effective at getting peopel to swear less, and that counts for something in my mind. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I used "duck" for quite a while and even when shouting it, it just doesn't have the same effect.
ThansalThe New ScumJoin Date: 2002-08-22Member: 1215Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1634291:date=Jun 18 2007, 02:20 PM:name=Rover)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rover @ Jun 18 2007, 02:20 PM) [snapback]1634291[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I used "duck" for quite a while and even when shouting it, it just doesn't have the same effect. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Did you ever get into a heated argument (one of those ones where there is a good chance some one is about to start swinging) and tell them "Why don't you make like a tree and go DUCK your self"?
Or tell your mum to "go duck her self" to her face?
Or stub your toe really hard infront of a little kid with her mum and yell duck at the top of your lungs?
IT all depends on the situation.
(btw, above questions are not retohrical, I am honestly curious, prove me wrogn and I will be interested)
<!--quoteo(post=1634292:date=Jun 18 2007, 08:25 PM:name=Thansal)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Thansal @ Jun 18 2007, 08:25 PM) [snapback]1634292[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Did you ever get into a heated argument (one of those ones where there is a good chance some one is about to start swinging) and tell them "Why don't you make like a tree and go DUCK your self"?
Or tell your mum to "go duck her self" to her face?
Or stub your toe really hard infront of a little kid with her mum and yell duck at the top of your lungs?
IT all depends on the situation. (btw, above questions are not retohrical, I am honestly curious, prove me wrogn and I will be interested) <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I've don't get into arguements where someone "is about to start swinging", I laugh at people who do. I've told my mom the less nice version of "duck off" several times, mostly when waking up. Third situation hasn't happened at all, but I'm pretty sure I'd shout the non-censored version now, since I don't use "duck" anymore.
The swear filter functions 2 main purposes in my mind:
1 - The most important thing is it helps define clear lines on what is allowed. If someone is actively avoiding the filter, it's an open and shut case to tell them to stop. Obviously there is some gray area on words that we don't have in the filter, but it makes our lives much easier. This is much easier than going "hmm, does this post have too much swearing?"
2 - It helps with spam bots/people, the few that get in.
ThansalThe New ScumJoin Date: 2002-08-22Member: 1215Members, Constellation
edited June 2007
<!--quoteo(post=1634294:date=Jun 18 2007, 02:47 PM:name=Rover)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rover @ Jun 18 2007, 02:47 PM) [snapback]1634294[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I've don't get into arguements where someone "is about to start swinging", I laugh at people who do. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Good point <!--quoteo(post=1634294:date=Jun 18 2007, 02:47 PM:name=Rover)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rover @ Jun 18 2007, 02:47 PM) [snapback]1634294[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I've told my mom the less nice version of "duck off" several times, mostly when waking up. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Moot point then. <!--quoteo(post=1634294:date=Jun 18 2007, 02:47 PM:name=Rover)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rover @ Jun 18 2007, 02:47 PM) [snapback]1634294[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Third situation hasn't happened at all, but I'm pretty sure I'd shout the non-censored version now, since I don't use "duck" anymore. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> dodging the question.
Basicly what I was tryign to point out is that if you substitute Duck/Muffin/Sugar/Farfenugen for swearing, but still don't use it it a context where swearing would be bad, it changes nothing.
Try telling a Professor to "duck off" over a grade he gave you on a paper, you will get in trouble.
Thansel, how else are people going to express irritation aside from blankly stating "I AM IRRITATED" if we don't have alternatives? There are different degrees. You're trying to portray emotion in language in black and white whereas it's much more of a gradual slope from pure white to absolute black.
Also, if you said "MUFFIN YOU" to me, I'd laugh. If you did it to the point where a fight broke out, it's not because the word muffin is offensive, it's because you as a person are.
Comments
The swear filter is not actualy there to hide young eyes from swearing. As you poitned out, any of us can figure out what some one was actualy saying despite any number of "#"s, or peopel can just dodge the filter. What it DOES do is encourage peopel to not use profanity/derogitory words as they know their post will get altered (or they will get warned/susspended/banned for dodging the filter).
To be perfectly honest I actualy swear less than I used to, and it is partialy because of the forums. It is also partialy as a backlash from dealing with the 12 year old twits on servers/other forums who can't express them selves above "that was ***", "**** you", "your (you're) a ****ing <pick your racial/ethnic/sexual epithet>". Switching between comunities where in most I see people just swearing, and in another I see honest to god conversations.
If you don't see it, you don't think it.
If you don't think it, you don't say it.
If you don't say it, some one else doesn't see it/think it/say it
Heck, I actualy type out and think WTH instead of what it is a filter for.
I swear a lot, and I never cared if my words got censored.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
###### yeah!
I support the idea of an optional swear filter. I don't curse that much but I've got no problem with seeing it, and the entire existence of a mandatory swear filter seems to show a lack of trust in the community, see what I mean?
I don't really care all that much though I guess, I doubt changing it would really have a very big effect on the community. I think most of the people who would really notice the difference in what they can say (aka: they curse alot) have already left because of the filter.
the entire existence of a mandatory swear filter seems to show a lack of trust in the community, see what I mean?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think they have pleanty of reason not to trust the community to use good judgement <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
I think they have pleanty of reason not to trust the community to use good judgement <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There would be no need for moderators if we could trust people online to use good judgement <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
I support the idea of an optional swear filter. I don't curse that much but I've got no problem with seeing it, and the entire existence of a mandatory swear filter seems to show a lack of trust in the community, see what I mean?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't trust you ###### any farther than I could ###### a ######.
And to answer your question, as we have stated before, the filter is not perfect. We're not here to try and censor every form of a word. Honestly half of the words in the list are just there from spam bot usage I would say. Most people don't even try and use them, unlike your post here.
[optional swear filter idea goes here]
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
cpu load for a string search-and-replace at display time would make the forums even less stable than they are now (adds at least two queries for each page drawn along with the string/hash s&r function).
People pay much more attention when you don't talk like an angsty 15 year old kid <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So now you're discriminating against angsty 15 year old kids who want to post in the forums <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
Sorry <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" />
I actually don't notice the swear filter generally, as i don't swear when typing, although it is really annoying when you type a legitimate word that just happens to have a censored word in the middle of it, but that really can't be avoided.
... although it is really annoying when you type a legitimate word that just happens to have a censored word in the middle of it, but that really can't be avoided.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually it can be avoided, since IPB has the option of doing exact word matches or matches within words. It would mean filling in multiple forms of words though.
As for snatch, that got me thinking: if I start using every day words such as, say, "muffin" as a swear word, and other people joined the trend, they might end up in swear filters. We could cripple the language that way.
Matter of fact, this is what happened to words like "idiot" and "retard," although I don't think they're filtered anywhere. Used to be simple, mostly neutral words, now they're insults.
... you muffin.
<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
I don't know how many of you know of this really crappy australian soap called 'home and away' but in that they always say something like 'rack off you dag', and I always wondered if 'rack' and 'dag' were actual swear words in Australia, or of they were just polite substitutions in the way 'frack' is in BSG.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The one that addmitedly did slip into my vocabulary is Frell. Thoguh I never say it nor type it, but I do tend to think it (one to many farscape marathon for me <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />)
You can even say saltwater now!
As for snatch, that got me thinking: if I start using every day words such as, say, "muffin" as a swear word, and other people joined the trend, they might end up in swear filters. We could cripple the language that way.
Matter of fact, this is what happened to words like "idiot" and "retard," although I don't think they're filtered anywhere. Used to be simple, mostly neutral words, now they're insults.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well if all it takes to be a swearword is that it used where swearwords normally are used...well that give any reason to say swearwords are bad, does it?
Swearwords are <i>bad </i>because many find them either offensive or vulgar. Retard is bad because it's insensitive to those who really are retarded to be used as a derogatory term, just like using names for different ethnic groups is mean.
Words describing bodily functions, -excrements and specific organs are considered undelicate according to cultural norms.
<i>One Onos to another Onos: Get out of here, you Gorge!</i>
Well if all it takes to be a swearword is that it used where swearwords normally are used...well that give any reason to say swearwords are bad, does it?
Swearwords are <i>bad </i>because many find them either offensive or vulgar. Retard is bad because it's insensitive to those who really are retarded to be used as a derogatory term, just like using names for different ethnic groups is mean.
Words describing bodily functions, -excrements and specific organs are considered undelicate according to cultural norms.
<i>One Onos to another Onos: Get out of here, you Gorge!</i>
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
well, there is nothing wrong with swear words. After all, words are just a collection of sounds or letters, nothing wrong with that, right?
However what is ment by them is what is the matter.
One of my favorite examples of this is the soccer mum who always says "Oh sugar" when something is going wrong.
We all know that there is no difference between what she means and what I mean when I say "Oh ****". So why is one bad and the other isn't?
My answer:
They are both equaly wrong.
So if we were all to substitute Muffin for a common swear, I then think it should be in the swear filter.
well, there is nothing wrong with swear words. After all, words are just a collection of sounds or letters, nothing wrong with that, right?
However what is ment by them is what is the matter.
One of my favorite examples of this is the soccer mum who always says "Oh sugar" when something is going wrong.
We all know that there is no difference between what she means and what I mean when I say "Oh ****". So why is one bad and the other isn't?
My answer:
They are both equaly wrong.
So if we were all to substitute Muffin for a common swear, I then think it should be in the swear filter.
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I see I expressed myself poorly in my last post. I'll try to be more precise.
It so happens that words don't only mean what they are meant to convey, it has also something to do with the <i>association</i> people have with it. And when I said a word was bad, I meant it is found offensive by some. Your stance is a typical postmodern one, but you find "Oh sugar" and "Oh ####" equal only because you find neither offensive. If being sensitive to what other people perceive a word to convey means anything at all to you, they are in no way equal. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" /> As one who doesn't get offended by swearing myself, I still manage to understand that using such words in front of certain people shows a lack of respect for others.
Muffin won't function as a swear word before somebody actually finds it offensive.
I still manage to understand that using such words in front of certain people shows a lack of respect for others.
Muffin won't function as a swear word before somebody actually finds it offensive.
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I would point out that I fully understand why swearing in front of some people is a bad idea (I infact tend not to swear in general). My point is that simply swapping a few letters shouldn't (and in my mind doesn't) change the meaning of something. However I agree with you that most peopel don't have my view, I just always thoguht it was kinda hypocritical (the mother saying "oh sugar, I forgot the shopping list" right after scolding her kid for swearing)
Take this for instance:
IF I were to just flat out switch Muffin for a popular swear word, I am rather sure I could get people offended at me as I go around screaming "MUFFIN YOU" at people in the same inflection and situation where people would normaly be swearing. If I just walk up to my GF and tell her "muffin You" she would just give me a funny look and ignore it as one of my thousand random things, but If I were to get into an argument with some one and scream "MUFFIN YOU" at them they probably would hit me.
To sorta drag this back on topic:
This is why I don't think the swear filter is effective and protecting virginal eyes (or what ever it is most poepl ethink it is there for), HOWEVER, I still think it is effective at getting peopel to swear less, and that counts for something in my mind.
I would point out that I fully understand why swearing in front of some people is a bad idea (I infact tend not to swear in general). My point is that simply swapping a few letters shouldn't (and in my mind doesn't) change the meaning of something.
Take this for instance:
IF I were to just flat out switch Muffin for a popular swear word, I am rather sure I could get people offended at me as I go around screaming "MUFFIN YOU" at people in the same inflection and situation where people would normaly be swearing. If I just walk up to my GF and tell her "muffin You" she would just give me a funny look and ignore it as one of my thousand random things, but If I were to get into an argument with some one and scream "MUFFIN YOU" at them they probably would hit me.
To sorta drag this back on topic:
This is why I don't think the swear filter is effective and protecting virginal eyes (or what ever it is most poepl ethink it is there for), HOWEVER, I still think it is effective at getting peopel to swear less, and that counts for something in my mind.
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I used "duck" for quite a while and even when shouting it, it just doesn't have the same effect.
I used "duck" for quite a while and even when shouting it, it just doesn't have the same effect.
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Did you ever get into a heated argument (one of those ones where there is a good chance some one is about to start swinging) and tell them "Why don't you make like a tree and go DUCK your self"?
Or tell your mum to "go duck her self" to her face?
Or stub your toe really hard infront of a little kid with her mum and yell duck at the top of your lungs?
IT all depends on the situation.
(btw, above questions are not retohrical, I am honestly curious, prove me wrogn and I will be interested)
Did you ever get into a heated argument (one of those ones where there is a good chance some one is about to start swinging) and tell them "Why don't you make like a tree and go DUCK your self"?
Or tell your mum to "go duck her self" to her face?
Or stub your toe really hard infront of a little kid with her mum and yell duck at the top of your lungs?
IT all depends on the situation.
(btw, above questions are not retohrical, I am honestly curious, prove me wrogn and I will be interested)
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I've don't get into arguements where someone "is about to start swinging", I laugh at people who do.
I've told my mom the less nice version of "duck off" several times, mostly when waking up.
Third situation hasn't happened at all, but I'm pretty sure I'd shout the non-censored version now, since I don't use "duck" anymore.
1 - The most important thing is it helps define clear lines on what is allowed. If someone is actively avoiding the filter, it's an open and shut case to tell them to stop. Obviously there is some gray area on words that we don't have in the filter, but it makes our lives much easier. This is much easier than going "hmm, does this post have too much swearing?"
2 - It helps with spam bots/people, the few that get in.
I've don't get into arguements where someone "is about to start swinging", I laugh at people who do.
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Good point
<!--quoteo(post=1634294:date=Jun 18 2007, 02:47 PM:name=Rover)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rover @ Jun 18 2007, 02:47 PM) [snapback]1634294[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
I've told my mom the less nice version of "duck off" several times, mostly when waking up.
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Moot point then.
<!--quoteo(post=1634294:date=Jun 18 2007, 02:47 PM:name=Rover)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rover @ Jun 18 2007, 02:47 PM) [snapback]1634294[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
Third situation hasn't happened at all, but I'm pretty sure I'd shout the non-censored version now, since I don't use "duck" anymore.
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dodging the question.
Basicly what I was tryign to point out is that if you substitute Duck/Muffin/Sugar/Farfenugen for swearing, but still don't use it it a context where swearing would be bad, it changes nothing.
Try telling a Professor to "duck off" over a grade he gave you on a paper, you will get in trouble.
Also, if you said "MUFFIN YOU" to me, I'd laugh. If you did it to the point where a fight broke out, it's not because the word muffin is offensive, it's because you as a person are.