It is á gamble! Almost every game I have great success in is because I gamble, the more gambles you win, the longer you live and the more crits you dish out to the enemy.
May as well get in on the whole trumpet-blowing act. I played Granary again for the first time in ages the other day. I notice they've put in some gates on that there map. Whoever came up with that idea deserves a promotion. Ho hum.
<!--quoteo(post=1651524:date=Sep 23 2007, 11:11 PM:name=T_h_e_m)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(T_h_e_m @ Sep 23 2007, 11:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1651524"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To begin, I was never directly on the TF2 team, so everything I know is from participating in playtests and overhearing conversations.
1. I haven't seen anything new tried out in the wild that we hadn't tried during the playtests yet. We'd routinely have 3-5 vs 3-5 scout battles in granary on the middle cap. The initial cap push for both well and granary is always the most bloody. And usually the team with a better assault tactic wins.
2. I don't know if default class caps have been seriously discussed internally. I know I personally think they're stupid.
You'll also notice that whenever someone caps a point, the round time goes back up to 6 minutes.
From what I understand, TF2 is geared to favor winners to specifically avoid stalemates. I'm pretty sure we tried wave spawning a while back, but *if* I remember correctly, it led to constant stalemates with center caps being traded indefinitely. A better game is to have the center traded only once or twice at most.
Stalemates with the current rules weren't rare interally, but they weren't frequent either. Although a tied stalemate was rare, someone always won. All you need to do is take out their engineers/medics and then they'll lose the war of attrition.
Seriously, it's been out 6 days. It's a whole different game when someone on your team knows what they're doing. <!--quoteo(post=1651538:date=Sep 24 2007, 12:12 AM:name=Crispy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Crispy @ Sep 24 2007, 12:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1651538"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The point is the 'best assault tactic' for Granary is to have the most amount of Scouts possible. Because of the spawn shifting, both of those maps revolve around the middle flag. If you hit that first you can push the other team back and -all things being equal- it shouldn't be hard to keep the momentum and steamroll the other team. So since the Scout is the fastest class and there is not even a default class cap, having as many Scouts as possible for the initial rush is the best strategy, period. I can guarantee a team of competant Scouts could wipe the floor on Granary vs. a 'well balanced' team with perhaps 3 scouts maximum to contend for the middle. This is because the steamroll effect will have a team of Scouts hitting level 1 sentries on the penultimate flag and after that the lovely 15 second losing penalty respawn versus the speediest class rush in the game will leave the last flag a walkover.
Well is much better because it at least allows all of the classes to get there at once (really damn freakin important) and because the middle flag has the train hazard which can work to the attackers' advantage. In Well there is no 'best' class to make that initial capture because Scouts are going up against Heavies and Soldiers from the get-go.
The point with Granary is that because the Scout is the fastest class instead of having equal importance to other classes on the map it is made more crucial, and because there is no class cap the most Scouts at the centre CP will win out every time, <i>especially since they cap at twice the normal rate!</i> As you say, we're only 6 days in, but as this map gets played again and again, more people will realise a) just how ludicrously good the Scout is and b) that Scouts > all in the first 30 seconds of Granary. And when maps have a single 'formula' they automatically become boring. It's like how GravelPit's formula is 'sit Demos at the top of C and spam the doorways, with a Medic or Dispenser to keep them alive (shoot everyone that comes up the ramp)'. If you're an attacker and you get to that last point, you virtually need Special Forces training for every member of your team to be able to crack it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--quoteo(post=1651539:date=Sep 24 2007, 12:21 AM:name=TychoCelchuuu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TychoCelchuuu @ Sep 24 2007, 12:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1651539"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It is clear that after 6 days of playing Crispy has outsmarted the entire Team Fortress 2 design team. In deference of this amazing feat I do not doubt for a moment that Valve will hire him to help design all their games from this point forwards.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--quoteo(post=1651941:date=Sep 25 2007, 01:06 PM:name=Crispy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Crispy @ Sep 25 2007, 01:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1651941"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Level 3 sentries cannot be single-shotted by Snipers at full power. My quote was 'instantly be taken out in a single hit', which spies cannot do to sentries, nor can any other class. Sappers take a few seconds to work, a good engy will need to be dead before he lets his SG get sapped.
Oh and this wasn't even orchestrated. I join a server that's playing Granary, and everyone goes Scout for the middle rush which we steamroll because the other team has a balanced team with only 1 Scout. <img src="http://crispy.nuclear-dawn.net/pickups/tf2_beta_14.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /> Like I said, what it's doing is forcing a strategy, like ns_coldturn, for example. <b>If they added in doors that opened after 30 seconds the map would be much more interesting.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->/smug <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
P.S. Tycho I brought your hat in case you felt like eating it.
On a side note, that server was awesome. Somehow we managed to organise an entire 12 man team to rush as Scouts, medics, soldiers, pyros, engineers, spies, heavies (a 12 man heavy rush is both awesome and really loud) and demomen. We didn't bother with Sniper.
On attack *and* defence. On Dustbowl. It was *awesome*.
**EDIT**
P.S
A 12 man spy defence on the second round of Dustbowl <b>does not work</b>. Just in case anyone felt like trying it.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1680190:date=Jun 4 2008, 09:49 AM:name=TychoCelchuuu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TychoCelchuuu @ Jun 4 2008, 09:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1680190"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Seems like Valve should be the ones eating the hat.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Except Valve didn't mock <b>Crispy</b>.
Your 12 soldier rush intrigues me <b>X_Stickman</b>. My team did something similar in a scrim with all scouts(worked) and then all spys(didn't work). Different map though, non-stock but old TF map, I think longrun? The one shaped like an 'S' and the middle cp is on a bridge.
<!--quoteo(post=1666031:date=Jan 2 2008, 06:40 PM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Kouji_San @ Jan 2 2008, 06:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1666031"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As said before, people run away from pyros. So an ubered pyro on a CP is a pretty good idea <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Everyone runs from ANY ubered class. A good ubered demo is the best.
Also, scouts do win on granary, but you need really good scouts and good strategy. If you just go and stand on the point, (what most pub players do) one demoman and one soldier with a medic will kill 999999999999999 scouts after jumping on the ramp/cargo crates.
Gravel_pit seems to favor a single heavy with a medic and soldiers defending B while scouts defend A & B. C is usually lost in a demomanvsdemoman/demomanvssoldier fight for the top. (No room to maneuver for the defenders there so splash damage = gg.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1680195:date=Jun 4 2008, 11:15 AM:name=aNytiMe)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(aNytiMe @ Jun 4 2008, 11:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1680195"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Gravel_pit seems to favor a single heavy with a medic and soldiers defending B while scouts defend A & B. C is usually lost in a demomanvsdemoman/demomanvssoldier fight for the top. (No room to maneuver for the defenders there so splash damage = gg.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Bit of a side note, anyone else watch the 6v6 CAL finals last night? They played gravelpit which is what reminded me.
<!--quoteo(post=1680194:date=Jun 4 2008, 04:08 PM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Jun 4 2008, 04:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1680194"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Your 12 soldier rush intrigues me <b>X_Stickman</b>. My team did something similar in a scrim with all scouts(worked) and then all spys(didn't work). Different map though, non-stock but old TF map, I think longrun? The one shaped like an 'S' and the middle cp is on a bridge.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->That'll be Warpath.
remiremedy [blu.knight]Join Date: 2003-11-18Member: 23112Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester
edited June 2008
I organized a scout rush once... Found out you can actually have too many people trying to cap. It actually wouldn't cap the point until one or two of us got off of it. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
Oh I've forgot to mention that one of my pals made a TF2 map, it was first called es_dynamite and with his very own code for pushing a cart along a track, even with multiple routes! Shortly after valve released screens and info about goldrush, so his map got pretty much overlooked. He did finally release a new version with payload system (pl_dynamite), go try it out if you can find it in the browser, just filter it. Sadly, a while after that he gets permanently banned from steam. He just got home from being away a few days and found out that his account was banned and valve has a strict "no exceptions or mistakes can be made, ever" policy, neither did they give a proper reason. GG valve @ customer care, you even managed to ban someone who actually contributed something.
remiremedy [blu.knight]Join Date: 2003-11-18Member: 23112Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester
edited June 2008
<!--quoteo(post=1680259:date=Jun 5 2008, 09:37 AM:name=Svenpa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Svenpa @ Jun 5 2008, 09:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1680259"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh I've forgot to mention that one of my pals made a TF2 map, it was first called es_dynamite and with his very own code for pushing a cart along a track, even with multiple routes! Shortly after valve released screens and info about goldrush, so his map got pretty much overlooked. He did finally release a new version with payload system (pl_dynamite), go try it out if you can find it in the browser, just filter it. Sadly, a while after that he gets permanently banned from steam. He just got home from being away a few days and found out that his account was banned and valve has a strict "no exceptions or mistakes can be made, ever" policy, neither did they give a proper reason. GG valve @ customer care, you even managed to ban someone who actually contributed something.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> How did the multiple routes bit work?
Did he actually try to contact valve to contest the ban?
It seems like they would be much more understanding, and if not, he could make a fuss and try to get a refund for the games he purchased.
<!--quoteo(post=1680260:date=Jun 5 2008, 03:43 PM:name=Psyke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Psyke @ Jun 5 2008, 03:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1680260"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How did the multiple routes bit work?
Did he actually try to contact valve to contest the ban?
It seems like they would be much more understanding, and if not, he could make a fuss and try to get a refund for the games he purchased.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The route is decided on random whenever the map starts (always different upon restart though), complete with train progress hud and checkpoints. There are two routes and each is blocked off from the other with locked doors, so when path A is chosen all ways through B is closed and vice versa. It's not dustbowl quality in means of balance but genuinely well made and tested with a few betas. While actually thinking back, I can't remember if he managed to fix some bugs which occured after payload conversion, like the cart not resetting and final destination not triggering properly. He probably did, as a experienced level designer he doesn't like leaving maps unfinished.
As for the ban, I tried to urge him to make some noise but he was too dissapointed/lazy to try and cited me valves conditions which I noted in prev post.
remiremedy [blu.knight]Join Date: 2003-11-18Member: 23112Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester
<!--quoteo(post=1680277:date=Jun 5 2008, 11:21 AM:name=Svenpa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Svenpa @ Jun 5 2008, 11:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1680277"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As for the ban, I tried to urge him to make some noise but he was too dissapointed/lazy to try and cited me valves conditions which I noted in prev post.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1680300:date=Jun 5 2008, 06:59 PM:name=Abra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Abra @ Jun 5 2008, 06:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1680300"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So he's just gonna take it?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1680302:date=Jun 5 2008, 07:06 PM:name=Psyke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Psyke @ Jun 5 2008, 07:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1680302"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So he didn't even try to contest. Fun stuff.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, pretty much, he'll just boycott em as far as I understood it. One can wonder why someone wouldn't fight, at least a bit, he did have several games on the list, easily worth over 50$. It leaved me with some suspicion but I can't fight for him and I'll trust his word for it.
remiremedy [blu.knight]Join Date: 2003-11-18Member: 23112Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester
<!--quoteo(post=1680315:date=Jun 5 2008, 02:48 PM:name=Svenpa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Svenpa @ Jun 5 2008, 02:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1680315"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah, pretty much, he'll just boycott em as far as I understood it. One can wonder why someone wouldn't fight, at least a bit, he did have several games on the list, easily worth over 50$. It leaved me with some suspicion but I can't fight for him and I'll trust his word for it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, the only reason I see to not fight is because you think you can't win... which means that there was a basis for the ban. Even then I would think you could work out something to get your money back or something.
AbraWould you kindlyJoin Date: 2003-08-17Member: 19870Members
edited June 2008
Yeah. If I made a new game mode which incoroporated the use of a jackhammer to destroy red's communications relay as a gameplay element and put it in my map, and then later valve released a previously unannounced gamemode called jackhammering along with their new map jack_offline, I wouldn't accept a ban. I would demand my account fully restored and an appology for banning my addition to the community. I mean, my map, full with glitches as it would have been, would easily be dropped in favor of the better worked out valve version.
That was a long text, here: have a complimentary hot towel.
Kort fortalt: He is not the fastest bear in the forest - or he is hiding something.
remiremedy [blu.knight]Join Date: 2003-11-18Member: 23112Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester
edited June 2008
<!--quoteo(post=1680338:date=Jun 5 2008, 06:28 PM:name=Abra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Abra @ Jun 5 2008, 06:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1680338"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Kort fortalt: He is not the fastest bear in the forest - or he is hiding something.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Kort fortalt.. does that mean like "therefore" in Danish or something?
Fastest bear made me laugh. Maybe he's hiding his treasure filled hiberation cave... or maybe I'm crazy. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
edit: Oh, and the more serious response... I agree with everything you said there Abra. Someone who makes a new game mode is unlikely to be lazy (because a lazy person wouldn't go to that much trouble) and obviously enjoys the game. Someone like this is not someone who would just roll over unless they knew they couldn't win.
<!--quoteo(post=1680338:date=Jun 6 2008, 12:28 AM:name=Abra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Abra @ Jun 6 2008, 12:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1680338"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah. If I made a new game mode which incoroporated the use of a jackhammer to destroy red's communications relay as a gameplay element and put it in my map, and then later valve released a previously unannounced gamemode called jackhammering along with their new map jack_offline, I wouldn't accept a ban. I would demand my account fully restored and an appology for banning my addition to the community. I mean, my map, full with glitches as it would have been, would easily be dropped in favor of the better worked out valve version.
That was a long text, here: have a complimentary hot towel. Kort fortalt: He is not the fastest bear in the forest - or he is hiding something. EDIT: By the way, what is he, Swedish?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your first paragraph has me confused between a rant or an elaborate sexual intercourse with oneself.
He is, in fact, swedish, taking classes in level design @ playground squad <a href="http://www.playgroundsquad.com/frame.asp?lang=en" target="_blank">http://www.playgroundsquad.com/frame.asp?lang=en</a> (not that anyone is interested)
In before 500 years of equal danish/norwegian/swedish hate and festive slander.
AbraWould you kindlyJoin Date: 2003-08-17Member: 19870Members
edited June 2008
Obligatory: You swedes with your hvit and your krøllebølle and your voiceless dorso-palatal velar fricative. <img src="http://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-sweden.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
edit:what the hell... that goes for norway too!<img src="http://www.forbrugereuropa.dk/fileadmin/Filer/Forbrugereuropa_-_pdf/Forbrugereuropa_klikbartEUkort/norway.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sadly, a while after that he gets permanently banned from steam. He just got home from being away a few days and found out that his account was banned and valve has a strict "no exceptions or mistakes can be made, ever" policy, neither did they give a proper reason. GG valve @ customer care, you even managed to ban someone who actually contributed something.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->He is an idiot for not contesting. If he believes he's been treated unfairly, all he needs to do is contest it.
If he doesn't get anywhere contesting it, then he can get someone to create a Steam Group and petition Valve with player support. The fact he hasn't leaves me with no pity for him at all, because he's either somehow guilty or he's too lazy to care about.
remiremedy [blu.knight]Join Date: 2003-11-18Member: 23112Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester
edited June 2008
<!--quoteo(post=1680353:date=Jun 6 2008, 05:28 AM:name=Crispy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Crispy @ Jun 6 2008, 05:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1680353"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If he doesn't get anywhere contesting it, then he can <b>call them up and make a fuss, and if that doesn't work, can take them to small claims court.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fixed to a more realistic solution...
or
GUYS LETS SIGN AN INTERNET PETITION TO CURE CANCER! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
and
I'm not awake yet.
edit: Yeah, I guess he can't take them to court if he's in another country... but phone could still be an option... My point is just that internet petitions never work. Just look at all the petition groups on facebook and the fat lot of good they've done.
Facebook petitions are stupid because they are petitioning in an area not likely to get the public's attention and because virtually every group on Facebook is just an excuse for chain-mail bandwagonery.
A Steam group linking to the petition with an actual registered petition would be a more sensible way of getting Valve's attention (failing contacting them directly and getting a satisfactory response). Anyway this is all moot because the guy's not willing to lift a finger to save himself for some reason.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1680373:date=Jun 6 2008, 12:43 PM:name=Crispy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Crispy @ Jun 6 2008, 12:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1680373"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Facebook petitions are stupid because they are petitioning in an area not likely to get the public's attention and because virtually every group on Facebook is just an excuse for chain-mail bandwagonery.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sounds like someone needs a hug<span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>, but I completely agree.</span>
Maybe I should start a facebook petition for more people to give hugs.
remiremedy [blu.knight]Join Date: 2003-11-18Member: 23112Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester
<!--quoteo(post=1680377:date=Jun 6 2008, 01:13 PM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Jun 6 2008, 01:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1680377"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sounds like someone needs a hug<span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>, but I completely agree.</span>
Maybe I should start a facebook petition for more people to give hugs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> search "free hugs"
Axtinguisher - always crits on burning targets, less damage than normal axe <a href="http://xs.to" target="_blank"><img src="http://xs128.xs.to/xs128/08236/axtinguisher135.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /></a>
Comments
<!--quoteo(post=1651524:date=Sep 23 2007, 11:11 PM:name=T_h_e_m)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(T_h_e_m @ Sep 23 2007, 11:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1651524"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To begin, I was never directly on the TF2 team, so everything I know is from participating in playtests and overhearing conversations.
1. I haven't seen anything new tried out in the wild that we hadn't tried during the playtests yet. We'd routinely have 3-5 vs 3-5 scout battles in granary on the middle cap. The initial cap push for both well and granary is always the most bloody. And usually the team with a better assault tactic wins.
2. I don't know if default class caps have been seriously discussed internally. I know I personally think they're stupid.
You'll also notice that whenever someone caps a point, the round time goes back up to 6 minutes.
From what I understand, TF2 is geared to favor winners to specifically avoid stalemates. I'm pretty sure we tried wave spawning a while back, but *if* I remember correctly, it led to constant stalemates with center caps being traded indefinitely. A better game is to have the center traded only once or twice at most.
Stalemates with the current rules weren't rare interally, but they weren't frequent either. Although a tied stalemate was rare, someone always won. All you need to do is take out their engineers/medics and then they'll lose the war of attrition.
Seriously, it's been out 6 days. It's a whole different game when someone on your team knows what they're doing.
<!--quoteo(post=1651538:date=Sep 24 2007, 12:12 AM:name=Crispy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Crispy @ Sep 24 2007, 12:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1651538"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The point is the 'best assault tactic' for Granary is to have the most amount of Scouts possible. Because of the spawn shifting, both of those maps revolve around the middle flag. If you hit that first you can push the other team back and -all things being equal- it shouldn't be hard to keep the momentum and steamroll the other team. So since the Scout is the fastest class and there is not even a default class cap, having as many Scouts as possible for the initial rush is the best strategy, period. I can guarantee a team of competant Scouts could wipe the floor on Granary vs. a 'well balanced' team with perhaps 3 scouts maximum to contend for the middle. This is because the steamroll effect will have a team of Scouts hitting level 1 sentries on the penultimate flag and after that the lovely 15 second losing penalty respawn versus the speediest class rush in the game will leave the last flag a walkover.
Well is much better because it at least allows all of the classes to get there at once (really damn freakin important) and because the middle flag has the train hazard which can work to the attackers' advantage. In Well there is no 'best' class to make that initial capture because Scouts are going up against Heavies and Soldiers from the get-go.
The point with Granary is that because the Scout is the fastest class instead of having equal importance to other classes on the map it is made more crucial, and because there is no class cap the most Scouts at the centre CP will win out every time, <i>especially since they cap at twice the normal rate!</i> As you say, we're only 6 days in, but as this map gets played again and again, more people will realise a) just how ludicrously good the Scout is and b) that Scouts > all in the first 30 seconds of Granary. And when maps have a single 'formula' they automatically become boring. It's like how GravelPit's formula is 'sit Demos at the top of C and spam the doorways, with a Medic or Dispenser to keep them alive (shoot everyone that comes up the ramp)'. If you're an attacker and you get to that last point, you virtually need Special Forces training for every member of your team to be able to crack it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1651539:date=Sep 24 2007, 12:21 AM:name=TychoCelchuuu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TychoCelchuuu @ Sep 24 2007, 12:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1651539"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It is clear that after 6 days of playing Crispy has outsmarted the entire Team Fortress 2 design team. In deference of this amazing feat I do not doubt for a moment that Valve will hire him to help design all their games from this point forwards.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1651941:date=Sep 25 2007, 01:06 PM:name=Crispy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Crispy @ Sep 25 2007, 01:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1651941"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Level 3 sentries cannot be single-shotted by Snipers at full power. My quote was 'instantly be taken out in a single hit', which spies cannot do to sentries, nor can any other class. Sappers take a few seconds to work, a good engy will need to be dead before he lets his SG get sapped.
Oh and this wasn't even orchestrated. I join a server that's playing Granary, and everyone goes Scout for the middle rush which we steamroll because the other team has a balanced team with only 1 Scout.
<img src="http://crispy.nuclear-dawn.net/pickups/tf2_beta_14.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Like I said, what it's doing is forcing a strategy, like ns_coldturn, for example. <b>If they added in doors that opened after 30 seconds the map would be much more interesting.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->/smug <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
P.S. Tycho I brought your hat in case you felt like eating it.
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v221/X_Stickman/Stuff/SOLDIERS.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
On a side note, that server was awesome. Somehow we managed to organise an entire 12 man team to rush as Scouts, medics, soldiers, pyros, engineers, spies, heavies (a 12 man heavy rush is both awesome and really loud) and demomen. We didn't bother with Sniper.
On attack *and* defence. On Dustbowl. It was *awesome*.
**EDIT**
P.S
A 12 man spy defence on the second round of Dustbowl <b>does not work</b>. Just in case anyone felt like trying it.
Except Valve didn't mock <b>Crispy</b>.
Your 12 soldier rush intrigues me <b>X_Stickman</b>. My team did something similar in a scrim with all scouts(worked) and then all spys(didn't work). Different map though, non-stock but old TF map, I think longrun? The one shaped like an 'S' and the middle cp is on a bridge.
Everyone runs from ANY ubered class. A good ubered demo is the best.
Also, scouts do win on granary, but you need really good scouts and good strategy. If you just go and stand on the point, (what most pub players do) one demoman and one soldier with a medic will kill 999999999999999 scouts after jumping on the ramp/cargo crates.
Gravel_pit seems to favor a single heavy with a medic and soldiers defending B while scouts defend A & B. C is usually lost in a demomanvsdemoman/demomanvssoldier fight for the top. (No room to maneuver for the defenders there so splash damage = gg.
Bit of a side note, anyone else watch the 6v6 CAL finals last night? They played gravelpit which is what reminded me.
Also, sleeping on the job...
How did the multiple routes bit work?
Did he actually try to contact valve to contest the ban?
It seems like they would be much more understanding, and if not, he could make a fuss and try to get a refund for the games he purchased.
Did he actually try to contact valve to contest the ban?
It seems like they would be much more understanding, and if not, he could make a fuss and try to get a refund for the games he purchased.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The route is decided on random whenever the map starts (always different upon restart though), complete with train progress hud and checkpoints. There are two routes and each is blocked off from the other with locked doors, so when path A is chosen all ways through B is closed and vice versa. It's not dustbowl quality in means of balance but genuinely well made and tested with a few betas. While actually thinking back, I can't remember if he managed to fix some bugs which occured after payload conversion, like the cart not resetting and final destination not triggering properly. He probably did, as a experienced level designer he doesn't like leaving maps unfinished.
As for the ban, I tried to urge him to make some noise but he was too dissapointed/lazy to try and cited me valves conditions which I noted in prev post.
So he didn't even try to contest. Fun stuff.
<!--quoteo(post=1680302:date=Jun 5 2008, 07:06 PM:name=Psyke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Psyke @ Jun 5 2008, 07:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1680302"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So he didn't even try to contest. Fun stuff.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, pretty much, he'll just boycott em as far as I understood it. One can wonder why someone wouldn't fight, at least a bit, he did have several games on the list, easily worth over 50$. It leaved me with some suspicion but I can't fight for him and I'll trust his word for it.
Yeah, the only reason I see to not fight is because you think you can't win... which means that there was a basis for the ban. Even then I would think you could work out something to get your money back or something.
That was a long text, here: have a complimentary hot towel.
Kort fortalt: He is not the fastest bear in the forest - or he is hiding something.
EDIT: By the way, what is he, Swedish?
Kort fortalt.. does that mean like "therefore" in Danish or something?
Fastest bear made me laugh. Maybe he's hiding his treasure filled hiberation cave... or maybe I'm crazy. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
edit:
Oh, and the more serious response... I agree with everything you said there Abra. Someone who makes a new game mode is unlikely to be lazy (because a lazy person wouldn't go to that much trouble) and obviously enjoys the game. Someone like this is not someone who would just roll over unless they knew they couldn't win.
That was a long text, here: have a complimentary hot towel.
Kort fortalt: He is not the fastest bear in the forest - or he is hiding something.
EDIT: By the way, what is he, Swedish?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your first paragraph has me confused between a rant or an elaborate sexual intercourse with oneself.
He is, in fact, swedish, taking classes in level design @ playground squad
<a href="http://www.playgroundsquad.com/frame.asp?lang=en" target="_blank">http://www.playgroundsquad.com/frame.asp?lang=en</a> (not that anyone is interested)
In before 500 years of equal danish/norwegian/swedish hate and festive slander.
<img src="http://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-denmark.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" /><img src="http://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-arghfist.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
edit:what the hell... that goes for norway too!<img src="http://www.forbrugereuropa.dk/fileadmin/Filer/Forbrugereuropa_-_pdf/Forbrugereuropa_klikbartEUkort/norway.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
If he doesn't get anywhere contesting it, then he can get someone to create a Steam Group and petition Valve with player support. The fact he hasn't leaves me with no pity for him at all, because he's either somehow guilty or he's too lazy to care about.
Fixed to a more realistic solution...
or
GUYS LETS SIGN AN INTERNET PETITION TO CURE CANCER! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
and
I'm not awake yet.
edit:
Yeah, I guess he can't take them to court if he's in another country... but phone could still be an option...
My point is just that internet petitions never work. Just look at all the petition groups on facebook and the fat lot of good they've done.
A Steam group linking to the petition with an actual registered petition would be a more sensible way of getting Valve's attention (failing contacting them directly and getting a satisfactory response). Anyway this is all moot because the guy's not willing to lift a finger to save himself for some reason.
Sounds like someone needs a hug<span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>, but I completely agree.</span>
Maybe I should start a facebook petition for more people to give hugs.
Maybe I should start a facebook petition for more people to give hugs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
search "free hugs"
<a href="http://xs.to" target="_blank"><img src="http://xs128.xs.to/xs128/08236/axtinguisher135.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /></a>
<a href="http://xs.to" target="_blank"><img src="http://xs128.xs.to/xs128/08236/axtinguisher135.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /></a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Source?