ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1841789:date=Apr 21 2011, 08:25 AM:name=Shilorius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shilorius @ Apr 21 2011, 08:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1841789"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I hope I can reconfigure the Button because CTRL is my jumping Key. <----Arrowkey player<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Reconfiguring hotkeys is pretty minimal right now. I actually want to switch most of the comm keys (e.g. move scrolling from arrow keys to WASD and hotkeys from QWER to numpad) which doesn't seem possible right now.
One thing that UWE needs to watch is the super balancing that the final version of NS1 ended up with. NS1 back in the beginning was way more fun than its final form IMO.
<!--quoteo(post=1841820:date=Apr 21 2011, 04:52 PM:name=Soylent_green)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soylent_green @ Apr 21 2011, 04:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1841820"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's not a matter of taste; the arrow keys are objectively awful. There's this big empty space all around the arrow keys; there's about 10 keys of empty space; that's 10 different actions you can't perform while using your other fingers to move around fluidly. You're handicaping yourself as badly as a WASD player who is missing a finger; stop doing that and invest a few hours to learn to play with WASD or ESDF.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry but some people (the minority of them i guess) are LEFT handed. If you are not, don't disrespect others trying to push YOUR configurations down their throat.
<!--quoteo(post=1841874:date=Apr 22 2011, 02:35 AM:name=Majin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Majin @ Apr 22 2011, 02:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1841874"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One thing that UWE needs to watch is the super balancing that the final version of NS1 ended up with. NS1 back in the beginning was way more fun than its final form IMO.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, but the final game wasn't balanced either. They aren't very good at Balance, but then again, that was just a mod.
<!--quoteo(post=1841907:date=Apr 22 2011, 01:55 AM:name=nightz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (nightz @ Apr 22 2011, 01:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1841907"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sorry but some people (the minority of them i guess) are LEFT handed. If you are not, don't disrespect others trying to push YOUR configurations down their throat.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> What does being left handed have to do with arrow keys? Do you only type with your left hand? I'm left handed and I stopped playing with the arrow keys once my hands were big enough to reach the keys.
<!--QuoteBegin-Bacillus+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Some top CS players seem to use arrow keys. I don't know the exact reasoning, but it seems at least viable if not even somehow preferred setup for some games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
CS has a simple control scheme and positively discourages moving while shooting. You can move like a cow in CS and it won't hurt much because the game isn't about skillful movement; the game is about aiming skill and mind games(figuring out what the opponent expects you to do, figuring out what strategy they will choose, spatial awareness, keeping track and coordinating with your team mates...).
NS has many buttons that you need access to while moving freely. NS2 has slightly less, its a bit slower paced and has secondary fire replacing some of the frantic weapon-switching aliens would do continually while fighting in NS1, but there are still a lot of keys you want quick access to.
<!--quoteo(post=1841907:date=Apr 22 2011, 01:55 AM:name=nightz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (nightz @ Apr 22 2011, 01:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1841907"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sorry but some people (the minority of them i guess) are LEFT handed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Doesn't matter; the block of "typewriter keys" is almost mirror symmetric around the vertical axis. You can use UHJK, IJKL; hell even 8456 on the numpad is preferable over the arrow keys.
Using the arrow keys has no redeeming feature.
<!--quoteo(post=1841907:date=Apr 22 2011, 01:55 AM:name=nightz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (nightz @ Apr 22 2011, 01:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1841907"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you are not, don't disrespect others trying to push YOUR configurations down their throat.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your ego is much too easily bruised if you can't stand some random nobody on the internets telling you that playing with the arrow keys is hamstringing yourself for no apparent reason.
<!--quoteo(post=1841937:date=Apr 22 2011, 11:39 AM:name=Soylent_green)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soylent_green @ Apr 22 2011, 11:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1841937"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->CS has a simple control scheme and positively discourages moving while shooting. You can move like a cow in CS and it won't hurt much because the game isn't about skillful movement; the game is about aiming skill and mind games(figuring out what the opponent expects you to do, figuring out what strategy they will choose, spatial awareness, keeping track and coordinating with your team mates...).
NS has many buttons that you need access to while moving freely. NS2 has slightly less, its a bit slower paced and has secondary fire replacing some of the frantic weapon-switching aliens would do continually while fighting in NS1, but there are still a lot of keys you want quick access to.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think I use maybe 2-3 extra keys in NS compared to CS and it might even be beneficial to bind some of those in my mouse instead of the WASD-surroundings. Of course it's a personal preference, but I don't think think there's any bigger obstacle in finding a setup around the arrow keys if someone wants to do so (at least on smaller keyboards with tight layouts).
Also, I'm pretty confident the pro level CS players are squeezing even the slightest bit of movement comfort out of their key layouts, so I can't see the issue there either, no matter if the movement isn't core gameplay.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Using the arrow keys has no redeeming feature.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The fact that CS players use it points otherwise. I have no clue whether the benefit applies to NS to any extend, but I think it pretty clearly points out that there's something people prefer to WASD. Without any more exact knowledge I can't go further, but I don't really like the idea of treating it as a strict no-go thingy as you're doing.
Arrow keys are more than likely only a benefit to left handers, equally as WASD or similar will be more comfortable and more accessible for right handers.
I have seen a left hander user IJKL before as that then free's up the rest of his keyboard to be accessible, while obviously have the mouse left of his keyboard.
I had no Idea that playing with Arrowkeys will lead to such a huge Discussion O.o Anyway, I play with Arrowkeys since my first PC Game (back in the olden Days of Duke Nukem 3D, nobody thaught about playing with letter keys...). Maybe it's not "modern" to play with Arrows, but I can use 'em even as good as the other Players use WSAD or so.
If you don't believe me, here is my Keyset: Arrows -> move CTRL -> jump Shift -> duck KP_ins -> sprint KP_end -> voice com End -> Flashlight/Alienvision Del -> radio 1 pg-dn -> radio 2 home -> gestate menu Return -> Use / build Mouse1 -> attack Mouse2 -> 2nd attack Mouse3 -> reload mousewheel -> change Weapons (But I can't duck with the Fade. Not sure if this is a bug due my keyset, or it is just not possible atm.)
Okay, this is getting way off-topic, so BTT Turns out I misunderstood the whole "Skulk can sneak with CTRL" thing. I thaught it will be a new Feature, but it was, in fact, a Bug. See here: <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Fixed Skulk not playing footsteps when pressing the crouch button (Thanks Motig)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> (changelog from the newspage)
Edit: btw, I am right handed Person ;) Edit2: ..and I use a big keyboard: Logitechs G19
<!--quoteo(post=1841745:date=Apr 21 2011, 02:32 AM:name=swalk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (swalk @ Apr 21 2011, 02:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1841745"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Holding CTRL as a skulk makes you run silent
Dont you mean?:
Holding SHIFT as a skulk makes you run silent
?
As far as i can tell holding SHIFT already does this, i'm a bit confused about this one.. Holding CTRL should make you ignore wallrunning as a skulk? And if you're on the wall you should drop down by pressing CTRL?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's basicly the crouch function uses as a skulk that makes this happen and since the skulk doesn't really have a crouch... .
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1841909:date=Apr 21 2011, 11:04 PM:name=Mkilbride)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mkilbride @ Apr 21 2011, 11:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1841909"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah, but the final game wasn't balanced either. They aren't very good at Balance, but then again, that was just a mod.
Still, yeah, new patch, 300MBish, I'm excited!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I give them the benefit of the doubt because proper balance is extremely hard and only a few games have ever achieved it (e.g. Starcraft). I think the biggest hurdle is having objective data on how changes affect gameplay. Any balance change will lead to tons of subjective comments on these forums about how said change went too far or not far enough. The key, as far as I can tell, is to have a good set of data from playtests that you can compare to the subjective comments on the forums, until you find a happy medium.
<!--quoteo(post=1841959:date=Apr 22 2011, 08:24 AM:name=Shilorius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shilorius @ Apr 22 2011, 08:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1841959"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have freakishly large hands and i like the room provided by the arrow keys, please try not to stare at my ham fists.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
QuovatisTeam InversionJoin Date: 2010-01-26Member: 70321Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1842409:date=Apr 25 2011, 07:38 PM:name=tyrael64)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tyrael64 @ Apr 25 2011, 07:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1842409"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->what is the solution for: Address problem when team has no extractors/harvesters ?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
PlasmaJoin Date: 2003-04-26Member: 15855Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
I think the res for kills strategy is pretty neat.
I recall in NS1 that it prevented unplanned rushes, because otherwise you would just "feed" the other team with resources from just being cannon fodder.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Zombie Marine<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Damn, I was hoping this would be a feature! "How'd I get to be sooo dead?"
<!--quoteo(post=1842409:date=Apr 26 2011, 01:38 PM:name=tyrael64)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tyrael64 @ Apr 26 2011, 01:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1842409"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->what is the solution for: Address problem when team has no extractors/harvesters ?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <a href="http://bit.ly/hcQLli" target="_blank">http://bit.ly/hcQLli</a> -- theres a few of charlies ideas about it in there, not sure what they decided
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=Progress)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Progress)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->B173: Effective melee range of Fade/Skulk seems far too short while in pursuit of a marine<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Anyone know if this "fix" is in 175? Or perhaps "PATCH: tracer package for targeting/projectile/bullets/melee attacks" is part of it?
I believe it is related to <a href="http://getsatisfaction.com/unknownworlds/topics/melee_with_animation_delay_does_not_detect_hits_properly" target="_blank">this</a>.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1842664:date=Apr 27 2011, 01:46 AM:name=Asraniel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Asraniel @ Apr 27 2011, 01:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1842664"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i think the solution should be: Losing the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This.
Extractor/harvesters should be made harder to kill combined with something like all structures start to lose health and eventually die if you don't have any RTs.
QuovatisTeam InversionJoin Date: 2010-01-26Member: 70321Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
Extractors are not too easy to kill. They are perfect. You still have enough time to react to save them. Harvesters, on the other hand, can be destroyed much quicker (with shotguns) before you can even react. I've never seen a marine team be left with no extractors, but it's quite common for the alien side.
<!--quoteo(post=1844301:date=May 5 2011, 03:44 PM:name=Quovatis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Quovatis @ May 5 2011, 03:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1844301"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Extractors are not too easy to kill. They are perfect. You still have enough time to react to save them. Harvesters, on the other hand, can be destroyed much quicker (with shotguns) before you can even react. I've never seen a marine team be left with no extractors, but it's quite common for the alien side.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Indeed. It doesn't make much sense for the Harvester to have such low health, now that it requires infestation to grow. It was okay before, when they could be placed anywhere similar to Extractors, and low health to "balance" out the fact they automatically grow.
Its only common for the alien side if the commander doesnt command(best via voice) and ppl dont care about the hive sight, or map.
Aliens respawn and move faster. Infestation blocks marine building and is unstoppable even with flamethrowers. (the time flamethrower is researched most important places on the map are already infested, and since you need a full ft magazine to destroy a single patch infestation is replaced fast. IF the whole marine team equips with flamethrowers to seriously do something against infestation (and the tickrate is still in a playable region) fades and lerks just eat you.
=> Performance(client + server), Infestation mechanic/spam and hydra spam are the biggest problems atm. If that is fixed, increasing harvester hp or some kind of upgrade could be viable.
I thought the problem was shotguns being everywhere a few minutes into the game? The gun is just as strong as in NS1, but more prevalent due to the new resource system...
Comments
<----Arrowkey player<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Reconfiguring hotkeys is pretty minimal right now. I actually want to switch most of the comm keys (e.g. move scrolling from arrow keys to WASD and hotkeys from QWER to numpad) which doesn't seem possible right now.
On the subject of binding, it would help with testing some performance stuff if there were a keyboard bind for turnleft/right like in HL1.
Sorry but some people (the minority of them i guess) are LEFT handed. If you are not, don't disrespect others trying to push YOUR configurations down their throat.
Yeah, but the final game wasn't balanced either. They aren't very good at Balance, but then again, that was just a mod.
Still, yeah, new patch, 300MBish, I'm excited!
What does being left handed have to do with arrow keys? Do you only type with your left hand? I'm left handed and I stopped playing with the arrow keys once my hands were big enough to reach the keys.
CS has a simple control scheme and positively discourages moving while shooting. You can move like a cow in CS and it won't hurt much because the game isn't about skillful movement; the game is about aiming skill and mind games(figuring out what the opponent expects you to do, figuring out what strategy they will choose, spatial awareness, keeping track and coordinating with your team mates...).
NS has many buttons that you need access to while moving freely. NS2 has slightly less, its a bit slower paced and has secondary fire replacing some of the frantic weapon-switching aliens would do continually while fighting in NS1, but there are still a lot of keys you want quick access to.
<!--quoteo(post=1841907:date=Apr 22 2011, 01:55 AM:name=nightz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (nightz @ Apr 22 2011, 01:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1841907"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sorry but some people (the minority of them i guess) are LEFT handed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Doesn't matter; the block of "typewriter keys" is almost mirror symmetric around the vertical axis. You can use UHJK, IJKL; hell even 8456 on the numpad is preferable over the arrow keys.
Using the arrow keys has no redeeming feature.
<!--quoteo(post=1841907:date=Apr 22 2011, 01:55 AM:name=nightz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (nightz @ Apr 22 2011, 01:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1841907"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you are not, don't disrespect others trying to push YOUR configurations down their throat.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your ego is much too easily bruised if you can't stand some random nobody on the internets telling you that playing with the arrow keys is hamstringing yourself for no apparent reason.
NS has many buttons that you need access to while moving freely. NS2 has slightly less, its a bit slower paced and has secondary fire replacing some of the frantic weapon-switching aliens would do continually while fighting in NS1, but there are still a lot of keys you want quick access to.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think I use maybe 2-3 extra keys in NS compared to CS and it might even be beneficial to bind some of those in my mouse instead of the WASD-surroundings. Of course it's a personal preference, but I don't think think there's any bigger obstacle in finding a setup around the arrow keys if someone wants to do so (at least on smaller keyboards with tight layouts).
Also, I'm pretty confident the pro level CS players are squeezing even the slightest bit of movement comfort out of their key layouts, so I can't see the issue there either, no matter if the movement isn't core gameplay.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Using the arrow keys has no redeeming feature.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The fact that CS players use it points otherwise. I have no clue whether the benefit applies to NS to any extend, but I think it pretty clearly points out that there's something people prefer to WASD. Without any more exact knowledge I can't go further, but I don't really like the idea of treating it as a strict no-go thingy as you're doing.
I have seen a left hander user IJKL before as that then free's up the rest of his keyboard to be accessible, while obviously have the mouse left of his keyboard.
Anyway, I play with Arrowkeys since my first PC Game (back in the olden Days of Duke Nukem 3D, nobody thaught about playing with letter keys...).
Maybe it's not "modern" to play with Arrows, but I can use 'em even as good as the other Players use WSAD or so.
If you don't believe me, here is my Keyset:
Arrows -> move
CTRL -> jump
Shift -> duck
KP_ins -> sprint
KP_end -> voice com
End -> Flashlight/Alienvision
Del -> radio 1
pg-dn -> radio 2
home -> gestate menu
Return -> Use / build
Mouse1 -> attack
Mouse2 -> 2nd attack
Mouse3 -> reload
mousewheel -> change Weapons
(But I can't duck with the Fade. Not sure if this is a bug due my keyset, or it is just not possible atm.)
Okay, this is getting way off-topic, so BTT
Turns out I misunderstood the whole "Skulk can sneak with CTRL" thing. I thaught it will be a new Feature, but it was, in fact, a Bug.
See here:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Fixed Skulk not playing footsteps when pressing the crouch button (Thanks Motig)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
(changelog from the newspage)
Edit: btw, I am right handed Person ;)
Edit2: ..and I use a big keyboard: Logitechs G19
Dont you mean?:
Holding SHIFT as a skulk makes you run silent
?
As far as i can tell holding SHIFT already does this, i'm a bit confused about this one..
Holding CTRL should make you ignore wallrunning as a skulk? And if you're on the wall you should drop down by pressing CTRL?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's basicly the crouch function uses as a skulk that makes this happen and since the skulk doesn't really have a crouch... .
Still, yeah, new patch, 300MBish, I'm excited!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I give them the benefit of the doubt because proper balance is extremely hard and only a few games have ever achieved it (e.g. Starcraft). I think the biggest hurdle is having objective data on how changes affect gameplay. Any balance change will lead to tons of subjective comments on these forums about how said change went too far or not far enough. The key, as far as I can tell, is to have a good set of data from playtests that you can compare to the subjective comments on the forums, until you find a happy medium.
weird.
I'm very interested in knowing that too.
I recall in NS1 that it prevented unplanned rushes, because otherwise you would just "feed" the other team with resources from just being cannon fodder.
Damn, I was hoping this would be a feature! "How'd I get to be sooo dead?"
<a href="http://bit.ly/hcQLli" target="_blank">http://bit.ly/hcQLli</a> -- theres a few of charlies ideas about it in there, not sure what they decided
Anyone know if this "fix" is in 175? Or perhaps "PATCH: tracer package for targeting/projectile/bullets/melee attacks" is part of it?
This.
Extractor/harvesters should be made harder to kill combined with something like all structures start to lose health and eventually die if you don't have any RTs.
Indeed. It doesn't make much sense for the Harvester to have such low health, now that it requires infestation to grow. It was okay before, when they could be placed anywhere similar to Extractors, and low health to "balance" out the fact they automatically grow.
Aliens respawn and move faster.
Infestation blocks marine building and is unstoppable even with flamethrowers. (the time flamethrower is researched most important places on the map are already infested, and since you need a full ft magazine to destroy a single patch infestation is replaced fast. IF the whole marine team equips with flamethrowers to seriously do something against infestation (and the tickrate is still in a playable region) fades and lerks just eat you.
=>
Performance(client + server), Infestation mechanic/spam and hydra spam are the biggest problems atm. If that is fixed, increasing harvester hp or some kind of upgrade could be viable.