NS2 design decision log

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Comments

  • KuBaNKuBaN Join Date: 2002-11-16 Member: 8979Members, Constellation
    <!--quoteo(post=1848178:date=May 24 2011, 11:11 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ May 24 2011, 11:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1848178"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wisdom.

    The shotgun, though? That can be fixed now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    If they nerf the damage it will have little to no advantage over the Assault Rifle. As few as they are, these weapons need to be more disparate in their functions than just having slightly more damage compensate with a shorter range and slower rate of fire in order to be appealing.

    Of course, they could always nerf the damage and <strike>change</strike> fix the damage type to Heavy so that it eats away Armor but doesn't annihilate everything (like they intended)...
  • PsiWarpPsiWarp Gifted Gorge Richmond, B.C., Canada Join Date: 2010-08-28 Member: 73810Members
    I like Sink, reminds me of Zerg's Burrow ability. It would be awesome to see an Onos pop up from infestation, if it use Sink :O
  • lunsluns Join Date: 2010-12-05 Member: 75502Members
    the spread from the shotgun is unreal, all its missing is scope. you can shotgun someone almost across the room.
    its just way too strong.
  • l3lessedl3lessed Join Date: 2010-06-07 Member: 71977Members
    edited May 2011
    I think fades should stay immune to damage while in blink state, as they pretty much are now. Allowing a fade to be damaged while in blink state, that is when the fade isn't even a material object, would really made blinking not so great, especially with flamers.

    I can see it already. Fade begins to blink, two marines spam the room with flamers, fade looses all his energy, and appears to get shotgunned in the face. Rinse and repeat. Now if the fade is dumb enough to get caught in flame thrower cross fire after he comes out of blink, that is his bad.
  • KuBaNKuBaN Join Date: 2002-11-16 Member: 8979Members, Constellation
    edited May 2011
    <!--quoteo(post=1848306:date=May 24 2011, 10:56 PM:name=luns)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (luns @ May 24 2011, 10:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1848306"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the spread from the shotgun is unreal, all its missing is scope. you can shotgun someone almost across the room.
    its just way too strong.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Well, it's not necessarily the spread (but it might be).

    They could keep the range as it is and cut the minimum damage down to as far as 5 (from 14) and the thing would still deal a MINIMUM of 50 base damage a shot, but still hit as hard as it does now up close (200, before Armor resistance).

    They could cut both the min and max damages and give it the Heavy damage type it claims to, and then it'd eat through armor at the same rate it eats through health, effectively making your armor "just more HP".

    Or they could increase the spread and you'd effectively have a melee weapon (and a guaranteed kill if anything got close enough).

    All depends on which direction they wanna go.
  • l3lessedl3lessed Join Date: 2010-06-07 Member: 71977Members
    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They could cut both the min and max damages and give it the Heavy damage type it claims to, and then it'd eat through armor at the same rate it eats through health, effectively making your armor "just more HP".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I like this idea. Shotguns aren't actually the most affective guns for killing a potential threat. They're better at softening and ultimately disabling targets than they are at killing them with the first hit. So I think distributing the current damage between both armor and health would be good.
  • aeroripperaeroripper Join Date: 2005-02-25 Member: 42471NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sink (Shift Shade) - Allows aliens to hold crouch to merge into the infestation, hiding from view. They can still move their view around. Attacking or moving causes them to rise up out of it. Extra levels of upgrade make both happen more quickly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I really like this idea due to the ambushing potential. It's similar to burrow from Starcraft, but the marines should be able to reveal them with an observatory scan.
  • KuBaNKuBaN Join Date: 2002-11-16 Member: 8979Members, Constellation
    <!--quoteo(post=1848316:date=May 25 2011, 01:24 AM:name=l3lessed)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (l3lessed @ May 25 2011, 01:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1848316"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like this idea. Shotguns aren't actually the most affective guns for killing a potential threat. They're better at softening and ultimately disabling targets than they are at killing them with the first hit. So I think distributing the current damage between both armor and health would be good.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I don't quite understand what you mean in that last sentence. Damage is already distributed between amor and health (30/70) as long as you have armor, and the redirected damage is then reduced (by 75/50/0% for Light, Normal, and Heavy, respectively) according to the damage type. But very few weapons currently use the Light (currently only Sentry Fire and Gorge Healspray) or Heavy (currently only Pistol) damage types, so we are rarely seeing the difference that damage types could make.

    It's literally just a matter of changing one variable once for each weapon to change it's damage type, so I'm very curious as to why they haven't adopted the system entirely, unless it's a very recent addition (I've only started perusing the Lua since B177).
  • ZekZek Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 7962Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    Sink sounds identical to NS1.0's cloak to me, and that didn't work out so great...
  • juicejuice Join Date: 2003-01-28 Member: 12886Members, Constellation
    Symbiosis would be interesting if it was a support skill that heals nearby aliens by some fraction of the damage you take. It accomplishes damage sharing but in a different way.

    This would not depend on anyone else getting the skill, solving the main problem. It also would not change from a marine's perspective when trying to gun down a single alien; they would still take the same amount of damage instead of apparently being invincible (skulk with gorge health? crazy...).

    Maybe some of your alien blood splatters on your teammates and is incorporated into their bodies instead.
    Think of carapace like symbiosis for yourself, and this idea doesn't seem so strange or difficult to balance.

    If a group got it the benefits would multiply and you could move as a swarm, kind of like the critical mass of gorges for a gorge rush.

    It would also greatly impact the target priority for marines and reward focus firing in coordination. It would also impact the timings of alien engagement.
  • culpritculprit Join Date: 2005-01-07 Member: 33527Members, Constellation
    edited May 2011
    I've been thinking about the new fade blink and flame throwers. There's one idea that flame throwers make fades lose energy and is disables the blink ability. This is really a hard counter to fades that might be too harsh for this game. It would certainly reward some tactical play, but I think it would make the fade too much of the hinge of a match just like NS1 (we can do better, right?).

    So what's the alternative? I think a limited use of blink when on fire could work well. I understand the purpose of the flame thrower is to negate alien movement abilities and deny position, but with it disabling blink, it seems too much over powered. So how about a limited use of blink. This could be tweaked over time very easily. Give fades one short blink (double-tap-style) on an interval. Perhaps the 1st interval would be longest, with a shorter time between mini-blinks as the flames taper off. This way, re-igniting a fade becomes much more useful. Lighting a fade on fire is still powerful and useful to marines, but it doesn't guaranty victory. A quick fade still has a chance to escape if the marines don't pounce at the opportunity. This way the flame thrower acts more as a way to shift the balance of the fight when applied tactically and not just a spammy death.

    The other option is that fades only stay on fire until they choose to blink. This works ok. If you realize you've been enflamed as a fade, and you have enough reserve energy (and act quickly enough), you can initiate a blink to put yourself out and escape from danger. If you burn too long or don't have enough reserve when you get lit up, you are screwed. This makes the energy management for a fade much more critical when flames are about. This would also make it trickier on the flamers requiring multiple ignitions of a skilled fade to wear down its energy resulting in its demise. It might be some intense cat-and-mouse or it could be more of a whack-a-fade.

    I really like the idea of the flame thrower and the fade creating exciting gameplay interactions where both sides need to be constantly alert. These mid-late game techs need to be just a bit softer counters than the end game onos/arc cannon.

    Just some thoughts coming out of my head to help me get to sleep.
  • NurEinMenschNurEinMensch Join Date: 2003-02-26 Member: 14056Members, Constellation
    I thought cloak worked well in NS1. Good enough to be used sometimes, but not good enough to be used every time. Also as I understand it sink will make you remain stationary in one spot.
  • SewlekSewlek The programmer previously known as Schimmel Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
    edited May 2011
    <!--quoteo(post=1848464:date=May 26 2011, 12:37 AM:name=juice)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (juice @ May 26 2011, 12:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1848464"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Symbiosis would be interesting if it was a support skill that heals nearby aliens by some fraction of the damage you take. It accomplishes damage sharing but in a different way.

    This would not depend on anyone else getting the skill, solving the main problem. It also would not change from a marine's perspective when trying to gun down a single alien; they would still take the same amount of damage instead of apparently being invincible (skulk with gorge health? crazy...).

    Maybe some of your alien blood splatters on your teammates and is incorporated into their bodies instead.
    Think of carapace like symbiosis for yourself, and this idea doesn't seem so strange or difficult to balance.

    If a group got it the benefits would multiply and you could move as a swarm, kind of like the critical mass of gorges for a gorge rush.

    It would also greatly impact the target priority for marines and reward focus firing in coordination. It would also impact the timings of alien engagement.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    thats a really nice idea!

    edit: about flame thrower: forcing a fade to use blink (flames instantly wear off) is a nice idea. it also would make sense, since the fade disappears from our dimension when blinking -> flames have no material to burn. this mechanic could be applied to all aliens: movement abilities causing flames to wear off, at least faster. what you have to do is to adjust the dot damage. make it high enough, so aliens want to get rid of flames asap. this mechanic would indirectly drain energy from aliens and help marines to defend their position.
  • Chris0132Chris0132 Join Date: 2009-07-25 Member: 68262Members
    One small thing.

    The new blink, are you always going to be flying forwards during blink?

    Wouldn't it make more sense to have your motion be controllable? Just at high speed? And maybe hold shift to go back to normal speed for precision?

    I mean it seems far more versatile than constant alternate dimension rocket fade.
  • juicejuice Join Date: 2003-01-28 Member: 12886Members, Constellation
    <!--quoteo(post=1848493:date=May 26 2011, 07:24 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ May 26 2011, 07:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1848493"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One small thing.

    The new blink, are you always going to be flying forwards during blink?

    Wouldn't it make more sense to have your motion be controllable? Just at high speed? And maybe hold shift to go back to normal speed for precision?

    I mean it seems far more versatile than constant alternate dimension rocket fade.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I actually agree with you on this one, Chris0132. See my <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=113258&view=findpost&p=1847734" target="_blank">post</a>.
  • AsketharAskethar Join Date: 2011-01-12 Member: 77178Members
    Just a few points about the Fade I would like to ask/suggest:

    1. To blink without moving. As you have a certain amount of 'blink time' I though it would look really good if say a marine launches a grenade at the fade and they blink on the spot to avoid damage.

    2. I was also wondering if blink energy could be made separate from attacking energy so that immediately after blinking the Fade's blink time would get reset so they can almost have an endless blink fight whilst popping in and out of blink, much like that in Nightcrawler's fight scene here: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrVdCkKxty4" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrVdCkKxty4</a>, whilst flamers could simply stop their ability to blink temporarily much like electricity hindered teleporting in the film Jumper , and

    3. following from the fight scene possibly have the ability to pull a marine into blink where you could either, throw them or snatch and grab them to an ambush site quickly (possibly as a upgrade to blink later on)
  • PapayasPapayas Join Date: 2010-07-01 Member: 72219Members
    I don't think the flame-thrower should make your energy regeneration lower. I think it should prevent you from doing a certain thing for about 3-5 seconds. Of example; as soon as the fade is set alight he can't use his blink for 4 seconds. After that 4 seconds (Even if he is still on fire) he can blink again. Blink should put out the fire on a fade as well. The effect of the flame-thrower also prevents skulk leap for 4 seconds, gorge heal for 4 seconds and lerk spores(?) for 4 seconds.

    When an alien is at full health whilst being on fire then the fire should get put out. It is just annoying when you are standing at your high for 10 seconds at full health just waiting for the fire to go out.
  • VeNeMVeNeM Join Date: 2002-07-13 Member: 928Members
    i still fail to see why FT needs to "drain energy" in the first place. fades arent that strong anymore. and it seems blink will drain most of the energy anyway..
  • AsketharAskethar Join Date: 2011-01-12 Member: 77178Members
    That's why I think the blink energy should be separate and should instantly replenish after a blink. :)
  • Squeal_Like_A_PigSqueal_Like_A_Pig Janitor Join Date: 2002-01-25 Member: 66Members, Super Administrators, NS1 Playtester, NS2 Developer, Reinforced - Supporter, WC 2013 - Silver, Subnautica Developer
    <!--quoteo(post=1848493:date=May 26 2011, 11:24 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ May 26 2011, 11:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1848493"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One small thing.

    The new blink, are you always going to be flying forwards during blink?

    Wouldn't it make more sense to have your motion be controllable? Just at high speed? And maybe hold shift to go back to normal speed for precision?

    I mean it seems far more versatile than constant alternate dimension rocket fade.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    No you will not always be flying forwards during blink. The initial into blink has a short forward distance, but after that you need to hold forward in the direction you want to go in. So you control where you move, how far you move, etc, while holding down the button. But if you just press and release the button you will automatically move forward just a bit.

    --Cory
  • CerebralCerebral Join Date: 2003-06-25 Member: 17689Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1848592:date=May 26 2011, 01:58 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ May 26 2011, 01:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1848592"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No you will not always be flying forwards during blink. The initial into blink has a short forward distance, but after that you need to hold forward in the direction you want to go in. So you control where you move, how far you move, etc, while holding down the button. But if you just press and release the button you will automatically move forward just a bit.

    --Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    This sounds really cool and hopefully it will pan out to be one of the movement based skills we have been waiting for. It would be nice if it was actually a little difficult to control due to speed so that it would benefit those who practiced. I can just imagine a fade blink running towards a ledge or railing, jumping over it through the air, and then reappearing over a marine and attacking downward. I'm excited to try it out.
  • lunsluns Join Date: 2010-12-05 Member: 75502Members
    I just hope they remove that ghost model, I hate seeing that model. Its like bike with training wheels.
    i'm looking forward to testing this very much aside from that.
  • Chris0132Chris0132 Join Date: 2009-07-25 Member: 68262Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1848592:date=May 26 2011, 06:58 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ May 26 2011, 06:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1848592"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No you will not always be flying forwards during blink. The initial into blink has a short forward distance, but after that you need to hold forward in the direction you want to go in. So you control where you move, how far you move, etc, while holding down the button. But if you just press and release the button you will automatically move forward just a bit.

    --Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Ah jolly good then.

    That makes more sense, it's just all the comparisons to NS1 blink had me a little confused.
  • QuovatisQuovatis Team Inversion Join Date: 2010-01-26 Member: 70321Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    As for the RFK being discussed, I always thought it would apply to PERSONAL resources only. Good players would get more personal res and would be able to continue to afford better weapons/lifeforms. That's the only way I can see it being balanced for large as well as small games.
  • Squeal_Like_A_PigSqueal_Like_A_Pig Janitor Join Date: 2002-01-25 Member: 66Members, Super Administrators, NS1 Playtester, NS2 Developer, Reinforced - Supporter, WC 2013 - Silver, Subnautica Developer
    <!--quoteo(post=1848597:date=May 26 2011, 06:20 PM:name=Cerebral)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cerebral @ May 26 2011, 06:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1848597"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This sounds really cool and hopefully it will pan out to be one of the movement based skills we have been waiting for. It would be nice if it was actually a little difficult to control due to speed so that it would benefit those who practiced.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Yes, we're still playing with the exact speed. When we tried the faster version of it, it makes it feel more like you are warping rather then flying around, and its nice to have something that requires more skill to use. But at the same, time, the tighter hallways, and more prop heavy areas in the maps make it really difficult and a little too hard and frustrating to navigate at a high speed. So, just have to find the right balance that is still controllable. It definitely will be faster then the base blink was in NS1, though.
    <!--quoteo(post=1848614:date=May 26 2011, 07:13 PM:name=luns)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (luns @ May 26 2011, 07:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1848614"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I just hope they remove that ghost model, I hate seeing that model. Its like bike with training wheels.
    i'm looking forward to testing this very much aside from that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Ghost model is gone, and won't be part of the regular blink.
    --Cory
  • swalkswalk Say hello to my little friend. Join Date: 2011-01-20 Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
    <!--quoteo(post=1848624:date=May 26 2011, 08:19 PM:name=Quovatis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Quovatis @ May 26 2011, 08:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1848624"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As for the RFK being discussed, I always thought it would apply to PERSONAL resources only. Good players would get more personal res and would be able to continue to afford better weapons/lifeforms. That's the only way I can see it being balanced for large as well as small games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    /agree
  • SquidgetSquidget Join Date: 2003-06-13 Member: 17334Members
    edited May 2011
    Sorry I'm late on commenting, but about this:
    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Btw, “metal” ”carbon” and “plasma” terms are officially gone (now just “team res” and “res”). Both are capped at 999.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Is literally how it's going to be? As a programmer who lives and dies on good naming, that strikes me as bad naming. It implies a subset relationship. Why not "personal res" or "solo res"?
  • PapayasPapayas Join Date: 2010-07-01 Member: 72219Members
    I hate the armoury!

    It removes the commanders roles in supplying his marines with weapons. The commander is only good for giving you ammo and med packs.

    ^ That should NOT be the issue.
  • ChocoZumaChocoZuma Join Date: 2007-11-19 Member: 62961Members
    Maybe have it that if a Fade Blinks while on fire, the other players can see his movements. Like a vague blur almost.

    So marines can see where he will pop out from blink and/or chase a dieing Fade.
  • PsiWarpPsiWarp Gifted Gorge Richmond, B.C., Canada Join Date: 2010-08-28 Member: 73810Members
    @Shotguns - Well, a slight nerf is better than no nerf at all :P
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