<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=NS2 Design Log)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NS2 Design Log)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- Lerk spores are pretty out of control too but not sure of the appropriate fix.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If spores are supposed to be the "area denial" weapon of the lerk, it needs to have properties that will give it that role. Right now, since the attack is instant, the marine doesn't have to make a conscious choice whether to avoid the spores or not, since he's already inside them. If spores took time to travel to the target (like NS1) it becomes more of a "thinking man's weapon" to force marines into making a decision of whether to ignore the spores or stay away from them.
When the flamethrower effect is changed to a volumetric model, I would love to see the lerk spores be changed top a similar model. Also I would like to see an evolution ditching the spike launchers for a powerful beak attack/tusks/similar - then there would be more flying class types with spores mildly favoring the melee fighter
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->-Skulks are dominating pretty hard-core and I think it’s because of Leap. Moved Leap to TwoHive research on the Shift.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This entry seems very peculiar. I don't find skulks difficult to kill at all with the rifle, unless they get the drop on me. And once shotguns are on the field, killing them is even more trivial.
Im kinda butt hurt about them taking away leap for skulks as well. As a marine, I have absolutely zero problem taking them out. Sure they kill me every once in awhile, but that was because they genuinely out skilled me, not because of leap.
R.e Lerk changes, I really have to disagree. I like how lerks are playing at the moment.
There are going to be 3 distinctive melee classes and there needs to be a ranged. If I fly in as a lerk, I get owned within 2 seconds of getting near a marine.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited June 2011
Leap needs to be in as initial ability, otherwise remove marine sprint as well and add the catalyst back in...
This suggestion doesn't make sense as Skulks are losing a good part of their power because of this... They need to be nimble in order to survive, hell they are already easy to kill. This would make marines more agile then Skulks, sure the "main" idea of them is ambusher, but once that is done he's facing a lot of angry marines. And leap gives a bit more versatility initially...
I think the lerk flying in tight spaces is too difficult atm. You also cant really strafe in the air, so it's hard to keep your crosshairs on your target and fly at the same time (unless you're flying directly at them). I think if the flying mechanics were changed a little it would enable the lerk to shoot while flying and then they'd be a lot harder to kill at close range.
I also agree with the others about the skulk leap. I think if you take it out then skulks will just get destroyed and need to play really defensively. I kill 2-3 skulks as a marine for every 1 that kills me right now.
At the moment I get quite laggy when a skulk is close and trying to bite me, I think when the performance is improved it should be easier to take them out at close range. Without leap it will be impossible to get close to marines and if they spot you, it will be very difficult to get away quickly without being picked off.
If anything I think you should decrease the amount of energy that leap uses by a little, because right now you can only leap 3 times and then you're out of energy and a sitting duck (4 times would be perfect). Again though, I think you should hold off until the performance has improved a bit before making any big changes.
If you take leap out skulks are going to be sort of impossible to use in some areas.
Currently skulks are strong only if they get into close range, at long range leap serves to make them useable, not strong. They also stack poorly, more skulks are simply easier to hit, whereas more marines means it's very hard to avoid all of their fire. If marines work in groups they have a significant advantage over skulks.
If you want to nerf skulks, add more deviation to the rifle, they're hideously weak against shotguns and the rifle is only bad against them in the sense it's hard to aim at them, make it easier to aim and you nerf skulks substantially.
If anything though, skulks need a buff, not a nerf, they're utterly useless once marines get shotguns, and they get shotguns extremely quickly and they cost next to nothing.
<!--quoteo(post=1853692:date=Jun 17 2011, 01:27 AM:name=Slickk-)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Slickk- @ Jun 17 2011, 01:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1853692"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->R.e Lerk changes, I really have to disagree. I like how lerks are playing at the moment.
There are going to be 3 distinctive melee classes and there needs to be a ranged. If I fly in as a lerk, I get owned within 2 seconds of getting near a marine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree, I've always thought of Lerks as a ranged support rather than an up in your face fighter. The way they currently play, they are for sitting back, denying marines an option and punishing those who decide to push forward. Flying currently feels really wonky as well, in NS1 I was a gorge and skulk player, and I would only ever go as high as the Lerk if I feel that we needed some higher level life-forms. In NS2 I feel that their flying has an even higher learning curve, but that may just be to the massive suck on my part. I am by no means saying that Lerks should not or could not fly up to a marine and kill him, but as a life-form who can fly and attack from range, that should be where they shine.
Skulks on the other hand...I feel like they're slowly becoming the Putty Patrol (Power Rangers) of NS2. Slightly decent early game and fall apart later on. They're effective right until shotguns start getting into people's hands. And don't get me started on how devastating grenades are. A group of 3 or more are amazing at taking down a few marines, but I feel that the way they attack via spam chomping and their overall clunkiness make it hard to truly become an assassin life-form later in the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1853700:date=Jun 17 2011, 01:52 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jun 17 2011, 01:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1853700"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you take leap out skulks are going to be sort of impossible to use in some areas.
Currently skulks are strong only if they get into close range, at long range leap serves to make them useable, not strong.
If you want to nerf skulks, add more deviation to the rifle, they're hideously weak against shotguns and the rifle is only bad against them in the sense it's hard to aim at them, make it easier to aim and you nerf skulks substantially.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not ok with this. I like the way the rifle plays as a bread and butter weapon. I think shotguns are the kicker in this situation, they attack too fast and can tear through lower life-forms at the expense of being able to kill fades faster. Why punish everybody just because Fades are noob-tanks?
<!--quoteo(post=1853701:date=Jun 17 2011, 01:52 AM:name=Yashoki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yashoki @ Jun 17 2011, 01:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1853701"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not ok with this. I like the way the rifle plays as a bread and butter weapon. I think shotguns are the kicker in this situation, they attack too fast and can tear through lower life-forms at the expense of being able to kill fades faster. Why punish everybody just because Fades are noob-tanks?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It wouldn't change how the rifle works, it'd just make it easier to use a little. It's sort of way more accurate than it needs to be right now. I don't think it needs much of a buff, but I accept other players might have difficulty with it.
But yes, shotguns are broken against everything other than fades, marines do need to be able to get them easily during mid-late game, but they also need to be significantly nerfed against other lifeforms and structures.
I don't like all these alien abilities being purchasable as upgrades. It just feels too convoluted for no real benefit. I'm not even sold on them being researched instead of hive unlocks, but if we're going that way they should at least automatically be available to all players when the research is done IMO.
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
edited June 2011
Hopefully aliens get hives up instantly or everyone won't stand a chance from turrets. Leaping across them is the only chance, but there is usually 30 more sentries in a network. The only thing I could do was snipe them as a lerk but that seems like that will be going too. With fade armor decreased and being unable to get energy when being damaged by a flamethrower. They can't damage the base in a turret spam situation. A gorge or commander can't block them from expanding due to the arc ultra long range. And a gorge can't bile the turrets as the onos isn't in to eat the bullets.
That pretty much explains the past two patches for me.
<!--quoteo(post=1853709:date=Jun 17 2011, 02:02 AM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Jun 17 2011, 02:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1853709"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't like all these alien abilities being purchasable as upgrades. It just feels too convoluted for no real benefit. I'm not even sold on them being researched instead of hive unlocks, but if we're going that way they should at least automatically be available to all players when the research is done IMO.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah actually, I don't see the point in having to buy it every time, it's not like they cost a signficant sum or time investment, it's just something you have to remember to click every time you spawn, kinda silly.
Indeed, much rather lifeform abilities be research then available to all (that way, can still limit research to # of Hives). It's not like we need more PRes sinks than the upcoming lifeform upgrades like Regeneration and Carapace.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- Show very faint/basic pheromone indicator to marines also. They have an idea that they are nearby, but don’t know what (perhaps just play faint sound when created, no visual).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Marine: "You heard that? I think the infestation knows we're here, bettter watch out."
<!--quoteo(post=1853699:date=Jun 16 2011, 08:51 PM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Jun 16 2011, 08:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1853699"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the lerk flying in tight spaces is too difficult atm. You also cant really strafe in the air, so it's hard to keep your crosshairs on your target and fly at the same time (unless you're flying directly at them). I think if the flying mechanics were changed a little it would enable the lerk to shoot while flying and then they'd be a lot harder to kill at close range.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Do you mean like a flying turret? Flying one way, shooting another? How are you going to control that?
<!--quoteo(post=1853831:date=Jun 17 2011, 04:40 AM:name=zh`)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zh` @ Jun 17 2011, 04:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1853831"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Leap in ns1 was fine because we could bunny hop.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This. Although I agree delaying leap is great to help marines get rolling a bit in the early game (aliens just go, marines take some time), it worked better in ns1 because skulks could bhop and purchase celerity. Skulks basically just kept speeding up (often MCs 1st) until 2nd hive at which point unlocking leap and being significantly beneficial for the aliens.
With no bhop, no movement upgrades, and no minileap either (not broken minileap but one that goes like half the distance of a normal leap) the early-game skulk will be at a real disadvantage.
I think one of the key challenges is to keep alien and marine skill curves equal. On NS1 bunnyhop kept pushing both teams further in skill curve on roughly equal pace. Meanwhile facing leap pushes marine skills lot further than its use does for aliens.
If they do that, Marines wilk always win! Wait 1min buy SG and its almost over for Aliens! Oh he Skulk killed me ehhhh, should I get my SG back?? Yeah! But first I spend some ress for a new SG, maybe a Skulks walking after me :-):-):-)!!
Skulks have no chance the reach a running Marine then! Either Skulks Basespeed is at maybe 6.6 or add Celerity as Upgrade! Even if a Skulks hides. Atleast at the 2. bite the Marine has gone and if you try to chase him to get the last bite, he turns and kills you with his SG....
I know it is flaming but better a bit now than reading in Post after Build 180 about this... like the 1000 different (same) Fade posts!
Remember that aliens haven't even received their upgrades yet, which for the crag will include regeneration and carapace (at least). Also, the shade and the shift have yet to be introduced, which will contain even more upgrades for alien lifeforms (as you mentioned, celerity will probably be one of these). This should help even things out for early game play (pre two hives).
The shotgun's effective range is being reduced in the next patch, which means that it will only be useful in close combat (as it should). Thus, I think leap should either be a hive 2 upgrade or a whip upgrade (so you need a whip and then need to research leap for 10 team res). Giving aliens leap right off the bat against marines isn't that fair, and with marines winning only 30% of games right now, there are obviously some balance issues in favor of the aliens.
<!--quoteo(post=1853719:date=Jun 16 2011, 08:31 PM:name=PsiWarp)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PsiWarp @ Jun 16 2011, 08:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1853719"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Indeed, much rather lifeform abilities be research then available to all (that way, can still limit research to # of Hives). It's not like we need more PRes sinks than the upcoming lifeform upgrades like Regeneration and Carapace.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lifeform evolve ability choices need to be interesting. I agree, if its automatic drag, drag and evolve, than there is no point.
So the devs don't know what to do with the lerk. Is it an area control or sniper unit? Just make snipe and 'ranged spore' separate lifeform upgrades, and let the player choose. These would be choices that drastically change the Lerk playstyle depending on which the player chooses (could get both, more expensive) ....and so having them as a lifeform choice makes sense.
Lower the Lerk cost, add the non-range spore ability as default, and early Lerk is more close combat oriented... which is a design goal.
Comments
If spores are supposed to be the "area denial" weapon of the lerk, it needs to have properties that will give it that role. Right now, since the attack is instant, the marine doesn't have to make a conscious choice whether to avoid the spores or not, since he's already inside them. If spores took time to travel to the target (like NS1) it becomes more of a "thinking man's weapon" to force marines into making a decision of whether to ignore the spores or stay away from them.
This entry seems very peculiar. I don't find skulks difficult to kill at all with the rifle, unless they get the drop on me. And once shotguns are on the field, killing them is even more trivial.
As a marine, I have absolutely zero problem taking them out. Sure they kill me every once in awhile, but that was because they genuinely out skilled me, not because of leap.
I have a feeling this might make skulks TOO weak.
There are going to be 3 distinctive melee classes and there needs to be a ranged. If I fly in as a lerk, I get owned within 2 seconds of getting near a marine.
This suggestion doesn't make sense as Skulks are losing a good part of their power because of this... They need to be nimble in order to survive, hell they are already easy to kill. This would make marines more agile then Skulks, sure the "main" idea of them is ambusher, but once that is done he's facing a lot of angry marines. And leap gives a bit more versatility initially...
I also agree with the others about the skulk leap. I think if you take it out then skulks will just get destroyed and need to play really defensively. I kill 2-3 skulks as a marine for every 1 that kills me right now.
At the moment I get quite laggy when a skulk is close and trying to bite me, I think when the performance is improved it should be easier to take them out at close range. Without leap it will be impossible to get close to marines and if they spot you, it will be very difficult to get away quickly without being picked off.
If anything I think you should decrease the amount of energy that leap uses by a little, because right now you can only leap 3 times and then you're out of energy and a sitting duck (4 times would be perfect). Again though, I think you should hold off until the performance has improved a bit before making any big changes.
Currently skulks are strong only if they get into close range, at long range leap serves to make them useable, not strong. They also stack poorly, more skulks are simply easier to hit, whereas more marines means it's very hard to avoid all of their fire. If marines work in groups they have a significant advantage over skulks.
If you want to nerf skulks, add more deviation to the rifle, they're hideously weak against shotguns and the rifle is only bad against them in the sense it's hard to aim at them, make it easier to aim and you nerf skulks substantially.
If anything though, skulks need a buff, not a nerf, they're utterly useless once marines get shotguns, and they get shotguns extremely quickly and they cost next to nothing.
There are going to be 3 distinctive melee classes and there needs to be a ranged. If I fly in as a lerk, I get owned within 2 seconds of getting near a marine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree, I've always thought of Lerks as a ranged support rather than an up in your face fighter. The way they currently play, they are for sitting back, denying marines an option and punishing those who decide to push forward. Flying currently feels really wonky as well, in NS1 I was a gorge and skulk player, and I would only ever go as high as the Lerk if I feel that we needed some higher level life-forms. In NS2 I feel that their flying has an even higher learning curve, but that may just be to the massive suck on my part. I am by no means saying that Lerks should not or could not fly up to a marine and kill him, but as a life-form who can fly and attack from range, that should be where they shine.
Skulks on the other hand...I feel like they're slowly becoming the Putty Patrol (Power Rangers) of NS2. Slightly decent early game and fall apart later on. They're effective right until shotguns start getting into people's hands. And don't get me started on how devastating grenades are. A group of 3 or more are amazing at taking down a few marines, but I feel that the way they attack via spam chomping and their overall clunkiness make it hard to truly become an assassin life-form later in the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1853700:date=Jun 17 2011, 01:52 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jun 17 2011, 01:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1853700"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you take leap out skulks are going to be sort of impossible to use in some areas.
Currently skulks are strong only if they get into close range, at long range leap serves to make them useable, not strong.
If you want to nerf skulks, add more deviation to the rifle, they're hideously weak against shotguns and the rifle is only bad against them in the sense it's hard to aim at them, make it easier to aim and you nerf skulks substantially.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not ok with this. I like the way the rifle plays as a bread and butter weapon. I think shotguns are the kicker in this situation, they attack too fast and can tear through lower life-forms at the expense of being able to kill fades faster. Why punish everybody just because Fades are noob-tanks?
It wouldn't change how the rifle works, it'd just make it easier to use a little. It's sort of way more accurate than it needs to be right now. I don't think it needs much of a buff, but I accept other players might have difficulty with it.
But yes, shotguns are broken against everything other than fades, marines do need to be able to get them easily during mid-late game, but they also need to be significantly nerfed against other lifeforms and structures.
That pretty much explains the past two patches for me.
So now aliens are getting nerfed. Fun.
Yeah actually, I don't see the point in having to buy it every time, it's not like they cost a signficant sum or time investment, it's just something you have to remember to click every time you spawn, kinda silly.
NS1 was fine with leap being hive2 (given to you automatically); also worked as a good tipoff to marines that alien's had a new hive up :)
Marine: "You heard that? I think the infestation knows we're here, bettter watch out."
Do you mean like a flying turret? Flying one way, shooting another?
How are you going to control that?
This. Although I agree delaying leap is great to help marines get rolling a bit in the early game (aliens just go, marines take some time), it worked better in ns1 because skulks could bhop and purchase celerity. Skulks basically just kept speeding up (often MCs 1st) until 2nd hive at which point unlocking leap and being significantly beneficial for the aliens.
With no bhop, no movement upgrades, and no minileap either (not broken minileap but one that goes like half the distance of a normal leap) the early-game skulk will be at a real disadvantage.
Oh he Skulk killed me ehhhh, should I get my SG back?? Yeah! But first I spend some ress for a new SG, maybe a Skulks walking after me :-):-):-)!!
Skulks have no chance the reach a running Marine then! Either Skulks Basespeed is at maybe 6.6 or add Celerity as Upgrade!
Even if a Skulks hides. Atleast at the 2. bite the Marine has gone and if you try to chase him to get the last bite, he turns and kills you with his SG....
I know it is flaming but better a bit now than reading in Post after Build 180 about this... like the 1000 different (same) Fade posts!
Remember that aliens haven't even received their upgrades yet, which for the crag will include regeneration and carapace (at least). Also, the shade and the shift have yet to be introduced, which will contain even more upgrades for alien lifeforms (as you mentioned, celerity will probably be one of these). This should help even things out for early game play (pre two hives).
The shotgun's effective range is being reduced in the next patch, which means that it will only be useful in close combat (as it should). Thus, I think leap should either be a hive 2 upgrade or a whip upgrade (so you need a whip and then need to research leap for 10 team res). Giving aliens leap right off the bat against marines isn't that fair, and with marines winning only 30% of games right now, there are obviously some balance issues in favor of the aliens.
Lifeform evolve ability choices need to be interesting. I agree, if its automatic drag, drag and evolve, than there is no point.
So the devs don't know what to do with the lerk. Is it an area control or sniper unit?
Just make snipe and 'ranged spore' separate lifeform upgrades, and let the player choose. These would be choices that drastically change the Lerk playstyle depending on which the player chooses (could get both, more expensive) ....and so having them as a lifeform choice makes sense.
Lower the Lerk cost, add the non-range spore ability as default, and early Lerk is more close combat oriented... which is a design goal.