"Well if it's not broken and nothing is wrong with NS1 then why aren't all of us playing it? Why is anyone here, watching the progress of something NEW? Because we want something NEW, and that has absolutely 0 to do with the fact of NS1 being broken or not."
And if you can't see what's new in NS2 you are either blind or ignorant.
"Well if it's not broken and nothing is wrong with NS1 then why aren't all of us playing it? "
The dated graphics and HL1 engine did it for me. Being immersed into the atmosphere and graphics was one of the highlights for me, then years later newer games and technology came out which raised the bar, and I found that NS1 didn't grab me anymore, now with NS2 having more up to date graphics I will be able to immerse again, very simple. Also got sick and tired of the bunny hopping, which again completely ruined the immersion, game became a joke, aesthetically, aliens and marines jumping around it rooms.. just killed it.
Heh. We got tons of complaints that we were too different from NS1, and now suddenly people are complaining that the game is becoming too similar to NS1. Ah well.
I would definitely argue that changes from NS1 that have been made, and are still being made, are far from superficial, however. Whether you like them or not, Alien commander, DI (clearly unfinished and not feature complete in its current implementation), power nodes, the new Exo (ok, admittedly you guys haven't seen it yet, but trust me, its not just a visually updated Heavy, it will play very differently), marines purchasing their own weapons, MACS, flamethrowers, just to name a few of the bigger items. I challenge you to come up with another game sequel that has an much of a visual and gameplay evolution from the first one as NS1 to NS2.
On the flip side, there are just some things that worked well in NS1, why change it for the sake of changing it? We've tried a different approach to doing some of these things, and they have proven to not work as well as they did originally. Additionally, a lot of decisions were made early on, based on lack of art time to implement a fully realized tech tree. When it was just 4 of us in an office, we felt that we just weren't going to have the time and money to have welders, phase gates, arms labs and prototype labs, etc. Those things were removed by necessity, not because we didn't think they would still work well in NS2. And as time has gone on, we've found ourselves missing these important elements for a variety of reasons.
These new tech tree changes were not just made in a vacuum, they stemmed from some long and intense discussions with some very competitive NS1 players, who had a lot of valid and well thought out points. Every decision that is made, to keep something from NS1 or to change it from NS1, comes with a lot of though behind it, and we make those changes for the betterment of NS2.
<!--quoteo(post=1846267:date=May 14 2011, 06:51 PM:name=RUben1)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RUben1 @ May 14 2011, 06:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1846267"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In order to build MAC's you have to build an armory and robotics factory? MAC's should be available from the start, don't you think?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> MACS were intended to allow the marine commander control over base building, even when his marines choose to ignore him, or are off fighting battles. The downside was that they were leading to less teamplay, and we were all missing that feeling of building together to get a base up quickly. So, then changes were made to make them less useful, and allow marines to build again, but its still in this grey area, where MACS aren't as useful as they could be, and marines still aren't needed to build.
The new way should work better. It forces marines to work together in the beginning, when you want to spend the time building up a base. But then, when the combat really starts, you want the marines pushing off into enemy territory and fighting back the aliens, not sitting around in the base building stuff. So, at that point the commander can build MACS to assist him, and we can bump them back to being a better, faster alternative to marines when it comes to building and repairing structures. It also leads to more strategic choice and depth for the marine commander.
with marines being able to build no i dont need macs there useless. I just dont need random CS Kiddies running off on there own :) Speaking of that when are they going to give the commander the marine shock collar. Marines misbehaving running off on there own? Instant head explosion :) This is a good example WARNING NSFW: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HY-03vYYAjA" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HY-03vYYAjA</a>
<!--quoteo(post=1846273:date=May 14 2011, 08:29 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ May 14 2011, 08:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1846273"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->MACS were intended to allow the marine commander control over base building, even when his marines choose to ignore him, or are off fighting battles. The downside was that they were leading to less teamplay, and we were all missing that feeling of building together to get a base up quickly. So, then changes were made to make them less useful, and allow marines to build again, but its still in this grey area, where MACS aren't as useful as they could be, and marines still aren't needed to build.
The new way should work better. It forces marines to work together in the beginning, when you want to spend the time building up a base. But then, when the combat really starts, you want the marines pushing off into enemy territory and fighting back the aliens, not sitting around in the base building stuff. So, at that point the commander can build MACS to assist him, and we can bump them back to being a better, faster alternative to marines when it comes to building and repairing structures. It also leads to more strategic choice and depth for the marine commander.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That doesn't make a lot of sense when you consider that by the time you get macs, you'll already have done most of the building.
The start is when you need people to spread out and get res nodes and stuff, later on you don't really need macs to build stuff because your marines will be in all the areas you are trying to colonise. You won't have a lot of places that need building up.
Unless you make them VERY good, much tougher and perhaps capable of repairing marines, I can't see them being very useful that late in the tree. Personally I find the current balance to be pretty good honestly, they get the building done eventually and there is no reason not to have them, which offsets their less than stellar build speed.
Don't underestimate their repair-ability on structures and that they can be tweaked to be equal or better than players at building stuff, not to mention the MAC-mines and the EMP should make them valuable. And they are more or less free if they still use energy on the structure itself as cost for getting one.
AsranielJoin Date: 2002-06-03Member: 724Members, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Retired Community Developer
I think it can be balanced out well. Sure, macs will no longer be used for building (well, rarely), because you will have most buildings you need at that time anyway. But if they are good at reparing/scouting, i'm sure they will have a use.
<!--quoteo(post=1846272:date=May 14 2011, 03:21 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ May 14 2011, 03:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1846272"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Heh. We got tons of complaints that we were too different from NS1, and now suddenly people are complaining that the game is becoming too similar to NS1. Ah well.
I would definitely argue that changes from NS1 that have been made, and are still being made, are far from superficial, however. Whether you like them or not, Alien commander, DI (clearly unfinished and not feature complete in its current implementation), power nodes, the new Exo (ok, admittedly you guys haven't seen it yet, but trust me, its not just a visually updated Heavy, it will play very differently), marines purchasing their own weapons, MACS, flamethrowers, just to name a few of the bigger items. I challenge you to come up with another game sequel that has an much of a visual and gameplay evolution from the first one as NS1 to NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well NS has a pretty mixed demographic, so it's not surprising. Some want a completely new and unique experience that still has the original NS atmosphere, some just want to play Combat on an updated graphics engine. Others lie somewhere in the middle.
I for one have been a fan of most of the design decisions (inclusions and exclusions), and am looking forward to many of those upcoming, but now some of those decisions are in danger of being abandoned (strategic aspects of power nodes, an evolved Marine and Alien experience) in favor of something we've seen before (Pylons, a refined Marine and Alien experience). So, naturally, as someone whom has justified most of his invested money and attention on said (and other) features, it's a bit of a disappointment to hear.
Regardless, between UWE and the modding community, I have every bit of faith that NS2 will turn out great.
<!--quoteo(post=1846280:date=May 14 2011, 04:15 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ May 14 2011, 04:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1846280"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That doesn't make a lot of sense when you consider that by the time you get macs, you'll already have done most of the building.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If you look at the tech tree, that is simply not true. Only 2 buildings need to be built before macs can be created.
<!--quoteo(post=1846237:date=May 15 2011, 12:35 AM:name=_Thresh_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Thresh_ @ May 15 2011, 12:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1846237"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You just don't do it.
From a business perspective New Coke failed for a good reason. It doesn't matter if it tastes better, if you change the formula, you go broke. There are almost no winning successors that changed their model.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> How is it changing the formula or the model? You're maintaining the main elements of the formula and the model (e.g. RTS/FPS, two very different teams) - but you're changing (improving) the details. I would much rather have had a 1:1 port of NS1 than these half-assed (<b>not</b> in terms of <u>work ethic</u>, but in terms of their actual effect on the game - which is to say, not beneficial and/or significant) additions. Also, wtf is New Coke?
<!--quoteo(post=1846238:date=May 15 2011, 01:07 AM:name=TheGivingTree)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TheGivingTree @ May 15 2011, 01:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1846238"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's very simple, if something works why change it? Just like the saying, if it ain't broke don't fix it,<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Bobby Kotick loves you (and your money).
NS1 wasn't a perfect game. It was a great game, it was better than most, people put up with the problems but it still <b>had</b> problems. e.g. Teams didn't scale as well for larger or smaller sizes than 6v6, hence the switch to two resources: team and personal. I think it was a good decision, but current (or predicted) execution isn't perfectly sound. Another example, there's this comment about how when you got devoured for the first time, it led to some memorable moments. But that's just it, the <b>first time</b>. After that, it was just a boring mechanic that made the tankiest units in the game into annoying, b*tch-tactic, hit-and-run units. It was the right decision to remove devour, but instead being a shield wall or a siege unit..... that's still not very compelling.
<!--quoteo(post=1846238:date=May 15 2011, 01:07 AM:name=TheGivingTree)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TheGivingTree @ May 15 2011, 01:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1846238"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Finally, if you seriously can't see how Macs/drifters, the power grid and infestation ALONE isn't a big drastic change in itself, then that is honestly beyond shocking and makes you wonder how hard headed or stubborn people can be.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You're giving them more value than they're worth. First of all, there is no power grid... there are power nodes - switches in a room that determines whether the lights or the structures are on. There could have been a power grid, but they scrapped that idea due to lack of clarity. MACs used to be important, but are gradually becoming much less so. Drifters, well, they are important, I suppose? Not really. In NS1, gorges could build wherever they wanted (almost) in three dimensions. Drifters (and the alien commander) merely limit that to two dimensions. The alien commander, as it is, is mostly an infestation monkey. Infestation itself seems to serve as just a restriction on where aliens can build (or, conversely, where marines can't build). It's nice, and I'm optimistic that it'll look good, but it's not really a huge feature.
<!--quoteo(post=1846272:date=May 15 2011, 03:21 AM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ May 15 2011, 03:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1846272"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Heh. We got tons of complaints that we were too different from NS1, and now suddenly people are complaining that the game is becoming too similar to NS1. Ah well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not the same people, though.
Going back to core mechanics is a good move tried true and tested it means that when NS2 goes live on the steam store and people start to buy it the product will be very solid..
There are only 2 things i don't like about NS2 now..
Marines cannot freely place their CC Alien commander..
Change these 2 things i will be a very happy chap :D
I'd love to have the arms lab re-implemented. Nothing was more fun then having an alien snipe the arms lab and have all the aliens suddenly strike out because the power of the marines was weakened.
<!--quoteo(post=1846332:date=May 14 2011, 11:13 PM:name=Skware)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Skware @ May 14 2011, 11:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1846332"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'd love to have the arms lab re-implemented. Nothing was more fun then having an alien snipe the arms lab and have all the aliens suddenly strike out because the power of the marines was weakened.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Snipe the armory, same effect.
<!--quoteo(post=1846349:date=May 15 2011, 10:06 AM:name=PsiWarp)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PsiWarp @ May 15 2011, 10:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1846349"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->True, the difference is difficulty. Armory gets lots of hugs, Arms Lab not as much.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Although given the new, more complex room layout, that means it's much easier to stuff the arms lab in a corner where it can't be sniped.
Honestly the arms lab is kind of a useless and annoying structure IMO. Just stick it on the armory, or on the command chair even, CC would be best personally, if I'm going to invest that much money into something I want it to be hard to kill.
<!--quoteo(post=1846272:date=May 14 2011, 08:21 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ May 14 2011, 08:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1846272"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Heh. We got tons of complaints that we were too different from NS1, and now suddenly people are complaining that the game is becoming too similar to NS1. Ah well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> NS1 core gameplay was so splintered depending on who you ask that it's no wonder you can't keep everyone happy. Whatever you do, someone feels that their core gameplay isn't changed at all or is changed way too much.
For me NS was partitially defined by creative and precise movement, skirmishing, intense small team dynamics and communication and so on. Someone only playing at 32 player server has absolutely no need to bother with any of those, he can for example enjoy the two extremely asymmetric teams, the general RTS concept and so on. Some people also seem to play NS as an atmospheric shooter while for me it reminds more of a board game with very clear rules and mechanics.
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- Toying with flexible D/M/S style tech tree for aliens but it doesn’t allow us to expand the game easily (assuming a hive could only support one type of chamber, that limits us to 3 - Crag, Shift, Shade).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You could make it so the first hive allows two chambers, and then with second hive another, and third hive have the last chamber.
I think that all this dissent is stemming from what is currently an unfinished game. Everyone and their dog is throwing their opinions (informed or not) into the air, they might be right, the might be wrong. What it means is that there is something just not quite there yet with NS2, whether it be the res model or DI or alien commanders. The majority of players can tell something is off, but we're not 100% sure right now, because a) we are not game designers b) it's just too early to tell. It's like when someone draws a picture thats slightly out of perspective, everyone can tell you there's something off about it, but most people will take pot shots into the darkness without any real expert knowledge. That's where you devs come in, you guys are the game designers, we are not. If you try to please everyone you will end up with no game at all, too unfocused to bring anything to the table. You need to have your own opinion of what you guys want from NS2 and then pick and choose who from the community you choose to listen to, who you choose to ignore.
In terms of the big jump from NS1 to NS2, you guys have balls, you had a formula that worked really quite well and said, Hey. Let's do something different. That's awesome.
P.S please tweak the res flow, gorges sitting on 600 res spamming hydras is getting old :P
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
edited May 2011
Seeing how the macs are getting landmines, couldn't the drifter get a researched ability to allow it to hide underneath infestation and xenocide when a marine steps on it?
<!--quoteo(post=1846411:date=May 15 2011, 02:03 PM:name=IeptBarakat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (IeptBarakat @ May 15 2011, 02:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1846411"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Seeing how the macs are getting landmines, couldn't the drifter get a researched ability to allow it to hide underneath infestation and xenocide when a marine steps on it?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
May as well. Being as we're all about making the two teams as "even" and "balanced" as possible. Who gives a crap if both teams are the same thing with different skins, right? It's all about balance. Doesn't matter if it's fun or not. Just make it "fair" so the whiners will shut up.
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
edited May 2011
<!--quoteo(post=1846534:date=May 16 2011, 02:15 PM:name=jkflipflop)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jkflipflop @ May 16 2011, 02:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1846534"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->May as well. Being as we're all about making the two teams as "even" and "balanced" as possible. Who gives a crap if both teams are the same thing with different skins, right? It's all about balance. Doesn't matter if it's fun or not. Just make it "fair" so the whiners will shut up.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Who bile bombed in your cereal?
It wouldn't be the exact same thing. Macs will be able to place mines. Drifters will be able to go in the infestation and be the landmine. You could have it like the whip root/unroot. So drifters could go down to the floor and try to blend with the environment. Weaker creatures often hide their presence. Also with the 1 action per drifter mechanic it would still present a different gameplay style of carefully deciding what to do with them. Be it building a structure, blinding marines, or defending an area by xenociding when marines get close.
<!--quoteo(post=1846544:date=May 16 2011, 11:39 AM:name=IeptBarakat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (IeptBarakat @ May 16 2011, 11:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1846544"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Who bile bombed in your cereal?
It wouldn't be the exact same thing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well yes, it would be the exact same thing. But I didn't really mean to quote you for my little rant there. Sorry.
It's just, I've been a team leader in a microprocessor research and development facility for a long time. I'm not a stupid man. Over the years you learn a few things about leading projects like this. I understand that games are not chips. I also understand there are things that transfer over between any and all walks of life. I've learned to take a step back and look at the macro picture of where we are, and to pick out glaring F-up's so that my projects are successful. It sounds easy, I know, but it's not.
Right now there are some big, glaring F-up's in this project. The nonchalance I've seen given to the networking/server code is my #1 concern. Having crappy networking behind this game will end you. You may as well pack it up right now if you're not going to take it seriously. How are you supposed to do <i>anything</i> else while the netcode is jittery crap? You can't make balance tweaks. . . because you don't know what's "balance" and what is the server taking a dump and not registering hits. You're not filtering your background noise and instead are adjusting to fit the haze. This is <b>not</b> how you get results, gentlemen.
My personal view is with the "flavor" of the classes. It's hard for me to quantify, but it's like aliens have lost their unique feeling. A BIG part of that has been the nerfing of the gorge. He is totally useless now. He can only do a crappy short-range heal and spam hydras (but not really - see issue #1). He's been stripped of all utility for the stupid alien commander role. Give the gorge his power back.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Each hive can support one of these chambers - building one changes the nearest hive to be a “Crag Hive†or “Shift Hiveâ€. Losing all of a chamber removes that distinction from a hive so the choice can be made again.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So, if you have a Crag Hive for your first hive, can you build a Shift or Shade near the first hive and the 2nd hive will change to a Shift or Shade Hive?
Also, Gorge Bile Bomb! Hurray for more projectiles to lob, and maybe you can consider merging Infestation with Bile Bomb instead of Heal Spray (carpet bombing vs. tiny spray cloud)
- Will change lerk spikes to be much shorter range, much higher rate of fire, to make sure he enters fights instead of sitting back. Will likely improve his health/armor and/or change his sniping too. werent lerks supposed to be a support class, well I guess not anymore since fade is garbage. i guess as a bonus marines would no longer have to actually chase a lerk to kill them. yayyyyyyy shotgun sniping!!! arent the aliens weak enough? keep hearing about all of these "alien improvements that are coming" but patch after patch the aliens get more nerfed.
werent lerks supposed to be a support class, well I guess not anymore since fade is garbage. i guess as a bonus marines would no longer have to actually chase a lerk to kill them. yayyyyyyy shotgun sniping!!! arent the aliens weak enough? keep hearing about all of these "alien improvements that are coming" but patch after patch the aliens get more nerfed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think UWE wants the Lerk to be more up-in-your-face in the early game, the faster firing rate and change to smoke trail spores encourage close combat. Lerk will have Snipe for long range support, and later in the game Spores can be upgraded to the version we are using right now, increasing the Lerk's ranged support.
<!--quoteo(post=1846831:date=May 17 2011, 08:12 PM:name=PsiWarp)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PsiWarp @ May 17 2011, 08:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1846831"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, Gorge Bile Bomb! Hurray for more projectiles to lob,<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now we just need lerks to pick up Gorges and then we have <u><b>flying destruction hippos</b></u> :P<i></i>
<!--quoteo(post=1846838:date=May 17 2011, 04:27 PM:name=PsiWarp)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PsiWarp @ May 17 2011, 04:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1846838"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think UWE wants the Lerk to be more up-in-your-face in the early game<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
then it has to fly better this is why I play in the corner and snipe and drop spores.
flying is hard...yes the hold the space glide thing helps but turning, dipping, etc. I find myself clonking on doorjams and crossbeams.
but why can't I just fly...like I do in the editor I don't want to flap at all.
Definitely NOT in favor of lerk changes. They should be a long range/support class..and as someone else mentioned why nerf the only working alien class atm? What about when larger maps come out do you really want all lerks engaging in close combat..just doesnt make any sense to me
Comments
And if you can't see what's new in NS2 you are either blind or ignorant.
"Well if it's not broken and nothing is wrong with NS1 then why aren't all of us playing it? "
The dated graphics and HL1 engine did it for me. Being immersed into the atmosphere and graphics was one of the highlights for me, then years later newer games and technology came out which raised the bar, and I found that NS1 didn't grab me anymore, now with NS2 having more up to date graphics I will be able to immerse again, very simple. Also got sick and tired of the bunny hopping, which again completely ruined the immersion, game became a joke, aesthetically, aliens and marines jumping around it rooms.. just killed it.
I would definitely argue that changes from NS1 that have been made, and are still being made, are far from superficial, however. Whether you like them or not, Alien commander, DI (clearly unfinished and not feature complete in its current implementation), power nodes, the new Exo (ok, admittedly you guys haven't seen it yet, but trust me, its not just a visually updated Heavy, it will play very differently), marines purchasing their own weapons, MACS, flamethrowers, just to name a few of the bigger items. I challenge you to come up with another game sequel that has an much of a visual and gameplay evolution from the first one as NS1 to NS2.
On the flip side, there are just some things that worked well in NS1, why change it for the sake of changing it? We've tried a different approach to doing some of these things, and they have proven to not work as well as they did originally. Additionally, a lot of decisions were made early on, based on lack of art time to implement a fully realized tech tree. When it was just 4 of us in an office, we felt that we just weren't going to have the time and money to have welders, phase gates, arms labs and prototype labs, etc. Those things were removed by necessity, not because we didn't think they would still work well in NS2. And as time has gone on, we've found ourselves missing these important elements for a variety of reasons.
These new tech tree changes were not just made in a vacuum, they stemmed from some long and intense discussions with some very competitive NS1 players, who had a lot of valid and well thought out points. Every decision that is made, to keep something from NS1 or to change it from NS1, comes with a lot of though behind it, and we make those changes for the betterment of NS2.
--Cory
MACS were intended to allow the marine commander control over base building, even when his marines choose to ignore him, or are off fighting battles. The downside was that they were leading to less teamplay, and we were all missing that feeling of building together to get a base up quickly. So, then changes were made to make them less useful, and allow marines to build again, but its still in this grey area, where MACS aren't as useful as they could be, and marines still aren't needed to build.
The new way should work better. It forces marines to work together in the beginning, when you want to spend the time building up a base. But then, when the combat really starts, you want the marines pushing off into enemy territory and fighting back the aliens, not sitting around in the base building stuff. So, at that point the commander can build MACS to assist him, and we can bump them back to being a better, faster alternative to marines when it comes to building and repairing structures. It also leads to more strategic choice and depth for the marine commander.
--Cory
The new way should work better. It forces marines to work together in the beginning, when you want to spend the time building up a base. But then, when the combat really starts, you want the marines pushing off into enemy territory and fighting back the aliens, not sitting around in the base building stuff. So, at that point the commander can build MACS to assist him, and we can bump them back to being a better, faster alternative to marines when it comes to building and repairing structures. It also leads to more strategic choice and depth for the marine commander.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That doesn't make a lot of sense when you consider that by the time you get macs, you'll already have done most of the building.
The start is when you need people to spread out and get res nodes and stuff, later on you don't really need macs to build stuff because your marines will be in all the areas you are trying to colonise. You won't have a lot of places that need building up.
Unless you make them VERY good, much tougher and perhaps capable of repairing marines, I can't see them being very useful that late in the tree. Personally I find the current balance to be pretty good honestly, they get the building done eventually and there is no reason not to have them, which offsets their less than stellar build speed.
Sure, macs will no longer be used for building (well, rarely), because you will have most buildings you need at that time anyway. But if they are good at reparing/scouting, i'm sure they will have a use.
I would definitely argue that changes from NS1 that have been made, and are still being made, are far from superficial, however. Whether you like them or not, Alien commander, DI (clearly unfinished and not feature complete in its current implementation), power nodes, the new Exo (ok, admittedly you guys haven't seen it yet, but trust me, its not just a visually updated Heavy, it will play very differently), marines purchasing their own weapons, MACS, flamethrowers, just to name a few of the bigger items. I challenge you to come up with another game sequel that has an much of a visual and gameplay evolution from the first one as NS1 to NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well NS has a pretty mixed demographic, so it's not surprising. Some want a completely new and unique experience that still has the original NS atmosphere, some just want to play Combat on an updated graphics engine. Others lie somewhere in the middle.
I for one have been a fan of most of the design decisions (inclusions and exclusions), and am looking forward to many of those upcoming, but now some of those decisions are in danger of being abandoned (strategic aspects of power nodes, an evolved Marine and Alien experience) in favor of something we've seen before (Pylons, a refined Marine and Alien experience). So, naturally, as someone whom has justified most of his invested money and attention on said (and other) features, it's a bit of a disappointment to hear.
Regardless, between UWE and the modding community, I have every bit of faith that NS2 will turn out great.
If you look at the tech tree, that is simply not true. Only 2 buildings need to be built before macs can be created.
From a business perspective New Coke failed for a good reason. It doesn't matter if it tastes better, if you change the formula, you go broke. There are almost no winning successors that changed their model.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How is it changing the formula or the model? You're maintaining the main elements of the formula and the model (e.g. RTS/FPS, two very different teams) - but you're changing (improving) the details. I would much rather have had a 1:1 port of NS1 than these half-assed (<b>not</b> in terms of <u>work ethic</u>, but in terms of their actual effect on the game - which is to say, not beneficial and/or significant) additions.
Also, wtf is New Coke?
<!--quoteo(post=1846238:date=May 15 2011, 01:07 AM:name=TheGivingTree)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TheGivingTree @ May 15 2011, 01:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1846238"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's very simple, if something works why change it? Just like the saying, if it ain't broke don't fix it,<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bobby Kotick loves you (and your money).
NS1 wasn't a perfect game. It was a great game, it was better than most, people put up with the problems but it still <b>had</b> problems.
e.g. Teams didn't scale as well for larger or smaller sizes than 6v6, hence the switch to two resources: team and personal. I think it was a good decision, but current (or predicted) execution isn't perfectly sound.
Another example, there's this comment about how when you got devoured for the first time, it led to some memorable moments. But that's just it, the <b>first time</b>. After that, it was just a boring mechanic that made the tankiest units in the game into annoying, b*tch-tactic, hit-and-run units. It was the right decision to remove devour, but instead being a shield wall or a siege unit..... that's still not very compelling.
<!--quoteo(post=1846238:date=May 15 2011, 01:07 AM:name=TheGivingTree)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TheGivingTree @ May 15 2011, 01:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1846238"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Finally, if you seriously can't see how Macs/drifters, the power grid and infestation ALONE isn't a big drastic change in itself, then that is honestly beyond shocking and makes you wonder how hard headed or stubborn people can be.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're giving them more value than they're worth. First of all, there is no power grid... there are power nodes - switches in a room that determines whether the lights or the structures are on. There could have been a power grid, but they scrapped that idea due to lack of clarity. MACs used to be important, but are gradually becoming much less so. Drifters, well, they are important, I suppose? Not really. In NS1, gorges could build wherever they wanted (almost) in three dimensions. Drifters (and the alien commander) merely limit that to two dimensions. The alien commander, as it is, is mostly an infestation monkey. Infestation itself seems to serve as just a restriction on where aliens can build (or, conversely, where marines can't build). It's nice, and I'm optimistic that it'll look good, but it's not really a huge feature.
<!--quoteo(post=1846272:date=May 15 2011, 03:21 AM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ May 15 2011, 03:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1846272"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Heh. We got tons of complaints that we were too different from NS1, and now suddenly people are complaining that the game is becoming too similar to NS1. Ah well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not the same people, though.
There are only 2 things i don't like about NS2 now..
Marines cannot freely place their CC
Alien commander..
Change these 2 things i will be a very happy chap :D
Snipe the armory, same effect.
True, the difference is difficulty. Armory gets lots of hugs, Arms Lab not as much.
Although given the new, more complex room layout, that means it's much easier to stuff the arms lab in a corner where it can't be sniped.
Honestly the arms lab is kind of a useless and annoying structure IMO. Just stick it on the armory, or on the command chair even, CC would be best personally, if I'm going to invest that much money into something I want it to be hard to kill.
NS1 core gameplay was so splintered depending on who you ask that it's no wonder you can't keep everyone happy. Whatever you do, someone feels that their core gameplay isn't changed at all or is changed way too much.
For me NS was partitially defined by creative and precise movement, skirmishing, intense small team dynamics and communication and so on. Someone only playing at 32 player server has absolutely no need to bother with any of those, he can for example enjoy the two extremely asymmetric teams, the general RTS concept and so on. Some people also seem to play NS as an atmospheric shooter while for me it reminds more of a board game with very clear rules and mechanics.
You could make it so the first hive allows two chambers, and then with second hive another, and third hive have the last chamber.
Everyone and their dog is throwing their opinions (informed or not) into the air, they might be right, the might be wrong.
What it means is that there is something just not quite there yet with NS2, whether it be the res model or DI or alien commanders.
The majority of players can tell something is off, but we're not 100% sure right now, because a) we are not game designers b) it's just too early to tell.
It's like when someone draws a picture thats slightly out of perspective, everyone can tell you there's something off about it, but most people will take pot shots into the darkness without any real expert knowledge. That's where you devs come in, you guys are the game designers, we are not. If you try to please everyone you will end up with no game at all, too unfocused to bring anything to the table. You need to have your own opinion of what you guys want from NS2 and then pick and choose who from the community you choose to listen to, who you choose to ignore.
In terms of the big jump from NS1 to NS2, you guys have balls, you had a formula that worked really quite well and said, Hey. Let's do something different.
That's awesome.
P.S please tweak the res flow, gorges sitting on 600 res spamming hydras is getting old :P
May as well. Being as we're all about making the two teams as "even" and "balanced" as possible. Who gives a crap if both teams are the same thing with different skins, right? It's all about balance. Doesn't matter if it's fun or not. Just make it "fair" so the whiners will shut up.
Who bile bombed in your cereal?
It wouldn't be the exact same thing. Macs will be able to place mines. Drifters will be able to go in the infestation and be the landmine.
You could have it like the whip root/unroot. So drifters could go down to the floor and try to blend with the environment. Weaker creatures often hide their presence.
Also with the 1 action per drifter mechanic it would still present a different gameplay style of carefully deciding what to do with them. Be it building a structure, blinding marines, or defending an area by xenociding when marines get close.
It wouldn't be the exact same thing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well yes, it would be the exact same thing. But I didn't really mean to quote you for my little rant there. Sorry.
It's just, I've been a team leader in a microprocessor research and development facility for a long time. I'm not a stupid man. Over the years you learn a few things about leading projects like this. I understand that games are not chips. I also understand there are things that transfer over between any and all walks of life. I've learned to take a step back and look at the macro picture of where we are, and to pick out glaring F-up's so that my projects are successful. It sounds easy, I know, but it's not.
Right now there are some big, glaring F-up's in this project. The nonchalance I've seen given to the networking/server code is my #1 concern. Having crappy networking behind this game will end you. You may as well pack it up right now if you're not going to take it seriously. How are you supposed to do <i>anything</i> else while the netcode is jittery crap? You can't make balance tweaks. . . because you don't know what's "balance" and what is the server taking a dump and not registering hits. You're not filtering your background noise and instead are adjusting to fit the haze. This is <b>not</b> how you get results, gentlemen.
My personal view is with the "flavor" of the classes. It's hard for me to quantify, but it's like aliens have lost their unique feeling. A BIG part of that has been the nerfing of the gorge. He is totally useless now. He can only do a crappy short-range heal and spam hydras (but not really - see issue #1). He's been stripped of all utility for the stupid alien commander role. Give the gorge his power back.
So, if you have a Crag Hive for your first hive, can you build a Shift or Shade near the first hive and the 2nd hive will change to a Shift or Shade Hive?
Also, Gorge Bile Bomb! Hurray for more projectiles to lob, and maybe you can consider merging Infestation with Bile Bomb instead of Heal Spray (carpet bombing vs. tiny spray cloud)
- Will change lerk spikes to be much shorter range, much higher rate of fire, to make sure he enters fights instead of sitting back. Will likely improve his health/armor and/or change his sniping too.
werent lerks supposed to be a support class, well I guess not anymore since fade is garbage. i guess as a bonus marines would no longer have to actually chase a lerk to kill
them. yayyyyyyy shotgun sniping!!! arent the aliens weak enough? keep hearing about all of these "alien improvements that are coming" but patch after patch the aliens get
more nerfed.
werent lerks supposed to be a support class, well I guess not anymore since fade is garbage. i guess as a bonus marines would no longer have to actually chase a lerk to kill
them. yayyyyyyy shotgun sniping!!! arent the aliens weak enough? keep hearing about all of these "alien improvements that are coming" but patch after patch the aliens get
more nerfed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think UWE wants the Lerk to be more up-in-your-face in the early game, the faster firing rate and change to smoke trail spores encourage close combat. Lerk will have Snipe for long range support, and later in the game Spores can be upgraded to the version we are using right now, increasing the Lerk's ranged support.
Now we just need lerks to pick up Gorges and then we have <u><b>flying destruction hippos</b></u> :P<i></i>
then it has to fly better
this is why I play in the corner and snipe and drop spores.
flying is hard...yes the hold the space glide thing helps
but turning, dipping, etc. I find myself clonking on doorjams and crossbeams.
but why can't I just fly...like I do in the editor
I don't want to flap at all.