<!--quoteo(post=1845626:date=May 12 2011, 02:38 AM:name=Rokiyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rokiyo @ May 12 2011, 02:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1845626"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not really sure how I feel about that, considering the shorter range and slower movement of the gorge. There are also plenty of medkits and the like laying around and available to TF2 medics, where Gorges don't always have nearby crags or hives to complement their healing abilities.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wisdom
In the curry game Whips are used rarely because there are not enough spaces for them to tactically go.
The maps need to be improved so whips have more of an advantage instead of being in the middle of the and just being there for the purpose of more Attack and allowing Aliens to have a Lerk.
You could: -Make whips smaller -Allow them to go in smaller areas
<!--quoteo(post=1845640:date=May 12 2011, 01:47 AM:name=Papayas)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Papayas @ May 12 2011, 01:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1845640"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In the curry game Whips are used rarely because there are not enough spaces for them to tactically go.
The maps need to be improved so whips have more of an advantage instead of being in the middle of the and just being there for the purpose of more Attack and allowing Aliens to have a Lerk.
You could: -Make whips smaller -Allow them to go in smaller areas<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree, Whips are so easily corner-sniped and Marines can often stand in plain sight, giving face-full of Shotgun blasts with no trouble from the Whips. Whips take so much babysitting that they're not worth the trouble aside from teching.
Other suggestions: -Increase range to reach across medium hallways (eg. from entrance to Rockdown Alien Start to other end of the wall of the hallway). -Have Whip pull its targets closer to it on successful hits, keeping them in range if they're too slow to escape between Lash cooldown. -Quick reaction time, immediately attacks on sight and in range?
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=NS2 Design Log)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NS2 Design Log)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Gorge could heal himself in NS1 (although that was never the plan!)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Uhh...
The gorge self heal was very much intentionally added somewhere late 3.0 betas or 3.1 Final to encourage more active gorging. It heals half the normal heal, which kind of confirms it's intentional (or more complicately bugged) and probably explains why the normal healspray ignores the gorge itself.
<!--quoteo(post=1845652:date=May 12 2011, 05:41 AM:name=PsiWarp)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PsiWarp @ May 12 2011, 05:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1845652"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree, Whips are so easily corner-sniped and Marines can often stand in plain sight, giving face-full of Shotgun blasts with no trouble from the Whips. Whips take so much babysitting that they're not worth the trouble aside from teching.
Other suggestions: -Increase range to reach across medium hallways (eg. from entrance to Rockdown Alien Start to other end of the wall of the hallway). -Have Whip pull its targets closer to it on successful hits, keeping them in range if they're too slow to escape between Lash cooldown. -Quick reaction time, immediately attacks on sight and in range?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=113384" target="_blank">Switch Bombard and Lash</a>
<!--quoteo(post=1845624:date=May 12 2011, 01:12 AM:name=KuBaN)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KuBaN @ May 12 2011, 01:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1845624"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yup. That's what the way TF2 Medics work, IIRC<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Pretty sure that's incorrect. Medics have a natural regen that's independent of any healing they do. I think gorges should have the same, or healspray should affect themselves.
<!--quoteo(post=1845776:date=May 12 2011, 03:42 PM:name=Typhon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Typhon @ May 12 2011, 03:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1845776"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Pretty sure that's incorrect. Medics have a natural regen that's independent of any healing they do. I think gorges should have the same, or healspray should affect themselves.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> My mistake. A slower natural regen would be a good alternative then.
Evil_bOb1Join Date: 2002-07-13Member: 938Members, Squad Five Blue
Watching charlie type in real time. HAHAHAHA! this is pretty cool and i like the ideas going down atm.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Cons - Umm....potentially less “depth†(the tech tree is smaller and simpler).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I always come back to chess as an example and you guys are probably getting pissed at it lol, but chess has no tech tree but that doesn't mean there is no depth to it. On the contrary. I think these decisions could make the game have more depth because the game will rely more on how you play the game rather than a predetermined path for you to play. Nice stuff I like it. Simple concepts lead to a richness of outcomes.
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
edited May 2011
Not sure I like the return of marine turtle tech design. At least include <a href="http://getsatisfaction.com/unknownworlds/topics/easy_incentive_for_marines_to_expand_without_splitting_gameplay" target="_blank">some incentive to expand.</a>
I agree. There really should be some incentive for Marines to expand outside of 'prevent aliens from expanding'.
As for one of the other points in the document, about the alien's chore of chomping down all the power points at the game start....just have them start destroyed! I think that fits the storyline better anyway.
And that linked suggestion in GetSatisfaction sounds great!
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- Get rid of power points too and just rely on the temporary ones? Much cleaner and doesn’t require aliens to go around chomping them in the beginning of the match. For another day...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Power nodes being fixed assets allow the mapper to decide locations that are balanced. Removing these in favor of portable units will just encourage placement in corners or outside the map making it impossible for Aliens to breakdown a sentry stronghold early game. Chomping power nodes at the game's start without covering your back will get you quickly made into a leather wallet. Also, an alien chomping a node is an alien that is not rushing your base. As a alien, I hate seeing teammates waste their time on unimportant power nodes that are behind the lines when they should be pressuring the front or protecting structures.
<i>Observation: Many of the recent decisions seem to be drifting away from the RTS aspects of the game. There are forum posts wanting the elimination of the alien commander, gorge structure placement and auto triggering of crags. If this is to be NS1 - just commit to it and stop trying to make something different. I do not care either way, but don't remove strategic game play elements just for user simplification. There is nothing wrong with a game having a learning curve. I see too many recent developers underestimate their user-base. Complex and deep are actually good things.</i>
<!--quoteo(post=1845818:date=May 13 2011, 01:55 AM:name=Typhon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Typhon @ May 13 2011, 01:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1845818"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree. There really should be some incentive for Marines to expand outside of 'prevent aliens from expanding'.
As for one of the other points in the document, about the alien's chore of chomping down all the power points at the game start....just have them start destroyed! I think that fits the storyline better anyway.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, this is actually the most annoying part of NS2 atm (except for the hitreg probs). It bores the crap out of me (and is probably the reason people cba to do it, so im stuck running around the entire map chomping them).
QuovatisTeam InversionJoin Date: 2010-01-26Member: 70321Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited May 2011
Like a lot of the new ideas posted today.
I'm not so sure on the tech tree stuff. While I love NS1, I'd like to have NS2 be different, and making marines have to defend tech points was a good thing, IMHO. I guess we can try it and see how it goes.
Removing power nodes is an interesting idea. However, you would have to address the problem of extractors requiring power packs. Probably the best solution is to not require extractors to be linked to the power grid to operate. If you do require it, extractors must be made to cost less, as now you would need to buy a power pack to go with every extractor. But if you do that, then a skulk would likely just munch on the low armor power pack than the extractor. Giving the power pack an obscene amount of armor wouldn't be good for other situations, so the best option is to just unlink extractors from the grid.
As i've said in a couple of posts, the game to me is Aliens growing and spreading infestation. The marines are there to eradicate the Aliens by pushing back the infestation. In my mind, Marines should set up camp on one point, push out for resources by fighting the Aliens back. Once these resources have been gained, they can crush the Aliens.
From an Alien perspective, they want to expand using infestation and to ultimately own the marines through territorial superiority.
This would be achieved by proceeding with the changes you're considering.
Wow! These are a lot of drastic changes at once, and some of them seem to have the potential to reduce the overarching territorial combat aspects that had a lot of promise, which worries me. I was looking forward to walking into a match and know the state of the match from the living, breathing locations rather than the scoreboard. I'm also not sure I understand the "static nature of having to build and protect multiple bases" statement. I always thought turtling in one spot was more stale. Besides, Phase Gates would alleviate the standing issues of being spread so thin.
But please don't get rid of Power Nodes! It was one of the few distinct gameplay mechanics left that weren't some NS1 reference but an attempt to build to the NS experience. Getting rid of power points would diminish many of it's dependent mechanics/features like the Alien (Flashlight) Dark-Vision, dynamically lit and living breathing environments, Nanogrid vs. Dynamic Infestation gameplay, among other things.
The problem with power points right now is that there are too few structures relying on one Power Node; one that happens to be in the same room as another point of interest (Res Node, Tech Node), Marines are encouraged to turtle. Their appeal is limited right now, but if they were placed with more purpose...
<img src="http://imageshack.us/m/40/9415/powernodedependencetram.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" /> <b><!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro-->Note: Stars are Power Nodes<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b>
The implications get even more interesting when <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=113121&st=0" target="_blank">doors require Power to be Commander-Controlled</a>.
But hey, I guess we're all here to determine whether it works or not!
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Creating a looser tech tree with more choices for marines (and a single base) and moving back towards a multi-hive model for aliens.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like this idea, it was the primary function of NS1 and I think it's also the main Root of the game and how it plays out. Please don't get rid of Tech points though. I think you have a really solid idea and concept that has the potential to keep what makes NS, NS but add a lot of fun features in the future that will just enhance the game play even more.
I think the marines still need to be encouraged to build multiple bases. You had mentioned before that the concept of DI giving aliens advantages in Infested areas. The same could be for Marines. Hold a tech point with a forward base could maybe give some sort of buffs to marines that are in range of this Radius from the command chair. You could keep the level function of the chairs but instead of it unlocking tier abilities maybe it could increase the buffs this chair is giving to the marines. Who knows maybe certain types of chairs could be built. One that increases damage, one that increases armor...maybe one that gives a very small speed boost....far fetched ideas but more or less just something to get the gears turning. Actually something like that could just be chosen in an upgrade menu, like choose what upgrade you want the chair to produce but you can only choose 1. Then level 2 and 3 increase said upgrade.
This would obviously cost resources and if your focus is to help marines save resources and encourage faster game play this would be along the lines of something to break a stalemate.
There are a lot of possibilities and I think you guys just need to experiment with several different ones before you find your niche.
Yeah, I get really get the feeling this game should be <i>about</i> power nodes & infestation. I believe they shouldn't just be commander-related contrivances, but very real and relevant to every single player, so that every player has a personal reason to fight for control of tech points and the spread of infestation.
It's all well and good to sit there and go "well aliens lose the game if infestation doesn't spread so aliens should care", but all that amounts to is "I'm playing a team-deathmatch game while I watch the commander spreading infestation around". Core game elements need to be deep and broad enough to for every player to "make it personal", because once they start get emotionally involved, you start recreating that "memorable gameplay" aspect that sucker punched so many of us back in NS 1.0
EDIT: Just to be clear, I am agreeing with KuBaN's idea for making each individual power node more relevant by giving each one greater purpose. I also believe their long-term effects need to be more profound, and directly felt by every player in the affected area. I believe that power nodes and infestation should create independent 2 binary states, which each of the 4 possibilities greatly impacting the gameplay of every nearby player.
<!--quoteo(post=1845288:date=May 10 2011, 08:18 PM:name=Lazer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lazer @ May 10 2011, 08:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1845288"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Completely with Harimau here. Tech points need more value to provide greater incentive for expansion. With phase gates coming back in it makes the most sense for tech to be tied to the # of tech points owned. I mean, they are called <b>tech</b> points, and with PGs they become much more defendable. Given PGs, if tech points where the key to higher tech, it would make significantly more sense to expand and hold your territory.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Tech points? Might aswell call them control points. As you need them controlled to upgrade.
I still feel like additional CC:s (bases) should do what most rts-players expect them to do: strengthen economy. Get rid of individual upgrades for RT:s and make resource collection grow by 1.5 (or so) for each additional base. Make the amount of bases affect the options at hand for the commander.
One base Marines can choose whatever tech path they want, but economy won't really hold to support proxy-buildings (like armories, sentrys etc.) or to many "unexpected" losses. It should be enough to make a standard tech-opening (into expansion) or an attempt at a strong all-in push or a very narrow high-tech-route, say going for phase gates quickly.
Two bases Pushes can easily be supported with an armory and a couple of sentries without any huge impact on economy. Basically, the marines have more options at hand in their offensive game. Phase gates are a good option at this point, but high-tech buildings should still be costly enough to make commanders think things through instead of just throwing them up without hesitation.
Three bases Marines can do pretty much whatever they want, economy is strong enough to support very costly strategies. Letting the marines get their third base should be a huge blow to the Kharaa. Alien side will need to put their full effort into defending a 3-base marine push and (if successful) their next move should be destroying a marine base to regain momentum.
I think these changes would be great for adding back asymmetry into the game. The idea of consolidative marines vs. expansive aliens works well with the melee vs. ranged dynamic. It'll give each side a unique feel strategically.
I like the idea of moving away from tech tiers and into tech trees. More choices and probably easier to balance.
On power nodes: perhaps extractors will automatically power a room as well? That way it's easier to expand (don't need to pay for both extractor and power node)
I've never been a fan of the global team alien upgrades. Why not just make them "purchasable" (like NS1) for more asymmetry between aliens and marines. At least it would give aliens more choices. (regen or armor?)
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
You guys at UWE might want to see this thread by Harimaru. There are some pretty good suggestions that could be a good add-up to your new design decisions.
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
edited May 2011
<!--quoteo(post=1845849:date=May 13 2011, 02:27 AM:name=kabab)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kabab @ May 13 2011, 02:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1845849"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How about having the tech points on the alien side of the map all ready destroyed at the start of the match..
Makes some sense and reduces the need to chomp by 50%<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Spit has an infestation feel and may add infestation on to marine HUD, reducing their vis slightly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This seems like an awesome addition and will make the gorge an even better teamplayer!
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One big conversation later...I think we’re going to try a combination of passive upgrades (armor1/damage1), hive unlockable specific lifeform abilities (ala NS1) and “generic†upgrades that any alien can purchase (regeneration, silence, etc.). But should alien upgrades be tradeoffs, or just plain better? NS1 had few tradeoffs (Focus) but had opportunity cost for each class of upgrade (def, mov. sens.).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Oooh, I like the sound of that.
<!--quoteo(post=1845845:date=May 13 2011, 09:14 AM:name=BitPon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BitPon @ May 13 2011, 09:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1845845"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I still feel like additional CC:s (bases) should do what most rts-players expect them to do: strengthen economy. [Idea]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree. However, my idea was simpler: <!--quoteo(post=1845686:date=May 12 2011, 09:50 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ May 12 2011, 09:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1845686"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->(discussed <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=113423" target="_blank">here</a> in depth):
* <!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro--><b>Tech nodes only provide team resources only;</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> <i>team resources are required for structures and researches (as they are now). Rename team resources to e.g. "technology".</i> * <!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro--><b>Res nodes only provide personal resources only;</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> <i>personal resources are required for life-forms, ammo/medpacks and equipment (as they are now). Personal resources already known simply as "resources", so no change.</i><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Edit: I see <b>swalk</b> has already plugged this for me. Thanks. :P
- Toying with flexible D/M/S style tech tree for aliens but it doesn’t allow us to expand the game easily (assuming a hive could only support one type of chamber, that limits us to 3 - Crag, Shift, Shade)
YES YES YES!!
Elimnate need for Extra Comm Chairs for Tech + Add Advanced Armory + Tech LAB -For those saying Marines need to feel like they need to expand. They do in the sense that they need to deny aliens hives they still can setup static bases and even add a comm chair but the comm chair isn't a required part of the Marine Tech.
-NS has been tested and played for years please focus on those aspects and add some cool bells and whistles such as dynamic DI. Lets not reinvent the wheel here. I feel that with limited resources choose the road that NS was built on. Add a few things but don't drastically alter the game so they we are balancing for years to come and the game is never released.
-Keep power nodes this was a huge environmental change. Allowing RT's to not power down when power goes out is probably better though. I think that allowing Sentries to be powered is fine or add a mobile/static power plant to be built.
RANDOM THOUGHTS
-Randomize Marine spawn and Aliens spawns. This will make each game more dynamic allowing for different strategies to unfold.
Comments
Wisdom
The maps need to be improved so whips have more of an advantage instead of being in the middle of the and just being there for the purpose of more Attack and allowing Aliens to have a Lerk.
You could:
-Make whips smaller
-Allow them to go in smaller areas
The maps need to be improved so whips have more of an advantage instead of being in the middle of the and just being there for the purpose of more Attack and allowing Aliens to have a Lerk.
You could:
-Make whips smaller
-Allow them to go in smaller areas<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree, Whips are so easily corner-sniped and Marines can often stand in plain sight, giving face-full of Shotgun blasts with no trouble from the Whips. Whips take so much babysitting that they're not worth the trouble aside from teching.
Other suggestions:
-Increase range to reach across medium hallways (eg. from entrance to Rockdown Alien Start to other end of the wall of the hallway).
-Have Whip pull its targets closer to it on successful hits, keeping them in range if they're too slow to escape between Lash cooldown.
-Quick reaction time, immediately attacks on sight and in range?
Uhh...
The gorge self heal was very much intentionally added somewhere late 3.0 betas or 3.1 Final to encourage more active gorging. It heals half the normal heal, which kind of confirms it's intentional (or more complicately bugged) and probably explains why the normal healspray ignores the gorge itself.
Other suggestions:
-Increase range to reach across medium hallways (eg. from entrance to Rockdown Alien Start to other end of the wall of the hallway).
-Have Whip pull its targets closer to it on successful hits, keeping them in range if they're too slow to escape between Lash cooldown.
-Quick reaction time, immediately attacks on sight and in range?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=113384" target="_blank">Switch Bombard and Lash</a>
Pretty sure that's incorrect. Medics have a natural regen that's independent of any healing they do. I think gorges should have the same, or healspray should affect themselves.
My mistake. A slower natural regen would be a good alternative then.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Cons - Umm....potentially less “depth†(the tech tree is smaller and simpler).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I always come back to chess as an example and you guys are probably getting pissed at it lol, but chess has no tech tree but that doesn't mean there is no depth to it. On the contrary. I think these decisions could make the game have more depth because the game will rely more on how you play the game rather than a predetermined path for you to play. Nice stuff I like it. Simple concepts lead to a richness of outcomes.
As for one of the other points in the document, about the alien's chore of chomping down all the power points at the game start....just have them start destroyed! I think that fits the storyline better anyway.
And that linked suggestion in GetSatisfaction sounds great!
Power nodes being fixed assets allow the mapper to decide locations that are balanced. Removing these in favor of portable units will just encourage placement in corners or outside the map making it impossible for Aliens to breakdown a sentry stronghold early game. Chomping power nodes at the game's start without covering your back will get you quickly made into a leather wallet. Also, an alien chomping a node is an alien that is not rushing your base. As a alien, I hate seeing teammates waste their time on unimportant power nodes that are behind the lines when they should be pressuring the front or protecting structures.
<i>Observation: Many of the recent decisions seem to be drifting away from the RTS aspects of the game. There are forum posts wanting the elimination of the alien commander, gorge structure placement and auto triggering of crags. If this is to be NS1 - just commit to it and stop trying to make something different. I do not care either way, but don't remove strategic game play elements just for user simplification. There is nothing wrong with a game having a learning curve. I see too many recent developers underestimate their user-base. Complex and deep are actually good things.</i>
As for one of the other points in the document, about the alien's chore of chomping down all the power points at the game start....just have them start destroyed! I think that fits the storyline better anyway.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, this is actually the most annoying part of NS2 atm (except for the hitreg probs). It bores the crap out of me (and is probably the reason people cba to do it, so im stuck running around the entire map chomping them).
I'm not so sure on the tech tree stuff. While I love NS1, I'd like to have NS2 be different, and making marines have to defend tech points was a good thing, IMHO. I guess we can try it and see how it goes.
Removing power nodes is an interesting idea. However, you would have to address the problem of extractors requiring power packs. Probably the best solution is to not require extractors to be linked to the power grid to operate. If you do require it, extractors must be made to cost less, as now you would need to buy a power pack to go with every extractor. But if you do that, then a skulk would likely just munch on the low armor power pack than the extractor. Giving the power pack an obscene amount of armor wouldn't be good for other situations, so the best option is to just unlink extractors from the grid.
From an Alien perspective, they want to expand using infestation and to ultimately own the marines through territorial superiority.
This would be achieved by proceeding with the changes you're considering.
But please don't get rid of Power Nodes! It was one of the few distinct gameplay mechanics left that weren't some NS1 reference but an attempt to build to the NS experience. Getting rid of power points would diminish many of it's dependent mechanics/features like the Alien (Flashlight) Dark-Vision, dynamically lit and living breathing environments, Nanogrid vs. Dynamic Infestation gameplay, among other things.
The problem with power points right now is that there are too few structures relying on one Power Node; one that happens to be in the same room as another point of interest (Res Node, Tech Node), Marines are encouraged to turtle. Their appeal is limited right now, but if they were placed with more purpose...
<img src="http://imageshack.us/m/40/9415/powernodedependencetram.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<b><!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro-->Note: Stars are Power Nodes<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b>
The implications get even more interesting when <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=113121&st=0" target="_blank">doors require Power to be Commander-Controlled</a>.
But hey, I guess we're all here to determine whether it works or not!
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Creating a looser tech tree with more choices for marines (and a single base) and moving back towards a multi-hive model for aliens.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like this idea, it was the primary function of NS1 and I think it's also the main Root of the game and how it plays out. Please don't get rid of Tech points though. I think you have a really solid idea and concept that has the potential to keep what makes NS, NS but add a lot of fun features in the future that will just enhance the game play even more.
I think the marines still need to be encouraged to build multiple bases. You had mentioned before that the concept of DI giving aliens advantages in Infested areas. The same could be for Marines. Hold a tech point with a forward base could maybe give some sort of buffs to marines that are in range of this Radius from the command chair. You could keep the level function of the chairs but instead of it unlocking tier abilities maybe it could increase the buffs this chair is giving to the marines. Who knows maybe certain types of chairs could be built. One that increases damage, one that increases armor...maybe one that gives a very small speed boost....far fetched ideas but more or less just something to get the gears turning. Actually something like that could just be chosen in an upgrade menu, like choose what upgrade you want the chair to produce but you can only choose 1. Then level 2 and 3 increase said upgrade.
This would obviously cost resources and if your focus is to help marines save resources and encourage faster game play this would be along the lines of something to break a stalemate.
There are a lot of possibilities and I think you guys just need to experiment with several different ones before you find your niche.
It's all well and good to sit there and go "well aliens lose the game if infestation doesn't spread so aliens should care", but all that amounts to is "I'm playing a team-deathmatch game while I watch the commander spreading infestation around". Core game elements need to be deep and broad enough to for every player to "make it personal", because once they start get emotionally involved, you start recreating that "memorable gameplay" aspect that sucker punched so many of us back in NS 1.0
EDIT: Just to be clear, I am agreeing with KuBaN's idea for making each individual power node more relevant by giving each one greater purpose. I also believe their long-term effects need to be more profound, and directly felt by every player in the affected area. I believe that power nodes and infestation should create independent 2 binary states, which each of the 4 possibilities greatly impacting the gameplay of every nearby player.
Tech points? Might aswell call them control points. As you need them controlled to upgrade.
One base
Marines can choose whatever tech path they want, but economy won't really hold to support proxy-buildings (like armories, sentrys etc.) or to many "unexpected" losses. It should be enough to make a standard tech-opening (into expansion) or an attempt at a strong all-in push or a very narrow high-tech-route, say going for phase gates quickly.
Two bases
Pushes can easily be supported with an armory and a couple of sentries without any huge impact on economy. Basically, the marines have more options at hand in their offensive game. Phase gates are a good option at this point, but high-tech buildings should still be costly enough to make commanders think things through instead of just throwing them up without hesitation.
Three bases
Marines can do pretty much whatever they want, economy is strong enough to support very costly strategies. Letting the marines get their third base should be a huge blow to the Kharaa. Alien side will need to put their full effort into defending a 3-base marine push and (if successful) their next move should be destroying a marine base to regain momentum.
Makes some sense and reduces the need to chomp by 50%
I like the idea of moving away from tech tiers and into tech trees. More choices and probably easier to balance.
On power nodes: perhaps extractors will automatically power a room as well? That way it's easier to expand (don't need to pay for both extractor and power node)
I've never been a fan of the global team alien upgrades. Why not just make them "purchasable" (like NS1) for more asymmetry between aliens and marines. At least it would give aliens more choices. (regen or armor?)
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=113423" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=113423</a>
Makes some sense and reduces the need to chomp by 50%<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1 That's the best solution to that problem.
<img src="http://imageshack.us/m/40/9415/powernodedependencetram.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
+1 To this one too.
And sorry for doubleposting, wasn't my intention.
This seems like an awesome addition and will make the gorge an even better teamplayer!
I agree. However, my idea was simpler:
<!--quoteo(post=1845686:date=May 12 2011, 09:50 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ May 12 2011, 09:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1845686"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->(discussed <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=113423" target="_blank">here</a> in depth):
* <!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro--><b>Tech nodes only provide team resources only;</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> <i>team resources are required for structures and researches (as they are now). Rename team resources to e.g. "technology".</i>
* <!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro--><b>Res nodes only provide personal resources only;</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> <i>personal resources are required for life-forms, ammo/medpacks and equipment (as they are now). Personal resources already known simply as "resources", so no change.</i><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Edit: I see <b>swalk</b> has already plugged this for me. Thanks. :P
YES YES YES!!
Elimnate need for Extra Comm Chairs for Tech + Add Advanced Armory + Tech LAB
-For those saying Marines need to feel like they need to expand. They do in the sense that they need to deny aliens hives they still can setup static bases and even add a comm chair but the comm chair isn't a required part of the Marine Tech.
-NS has been tested and played for years please focus on those aspects and add some cool bells and whistles such as dynamic DI. Lets not reinvent the wheel here. I feel that with limited resources choose the road that NS was built on. Add a few things but don't drastically alter the game so they we are balancing for years to come and the game is never released.
-Keep power nodes this was a huge environmental change. Allowing RT's to not power down when power goes out is probably better though. I think that allowing Sentries to be powered is fine or add a mobile/static power plant to be built.
RANDOM THOUGHTS
-Randomize Marine spawn and Aliens spawns. This will make each game more dynamic allowing for different strategies to unfold.