Oh! And Boxer'D I can't find your email address anywhere, can you shoot me another one at NS2HD@live.com.au? Hopeless I know. It's lucky I don't organise tournaments for a living, I'd be fired quicksmart!
Teams dispute more often when money is on the line and emotions run high.
How will you handle inevitable cheating accusations and disputes?
If you choose to handle them at all, how will you verify if someone is cheating without a demo system or first-person spectator view implemented to provide evidence?
<!--quoteo(post=1875695:date=Sep 20 2011, 06:44 AM:name=NS2HD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NS2HD @ Sep 20 2011, 06:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1875695"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Teams may substitute a single player during a match, in case of a long disconnection.' Game being a single 'game' of NS2 leading to an Alien or Marine victory; Match being a succession of games leading to the progression of one team and the elimination of another.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I still don't see why this is necessary. Think about it: Tournaments are supposed to be played clan vs. clan, not subset of clan vs. subset of clan. Why does it matter if some players switch between games? I remember one of my old clans had about 9 players, and when all were available for league matches, we would switch places after the rounds so that everyone could play.
<!--quoteo(post=1875712:date=Sep 20 2011, 08:47 AM:name=Raza.)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Raza. @ Sep 20 2011, 08:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1875712"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I still don't see why this is necessary. Think about it: Tournaments are supposed to be played clan vs. clan, not subset of clan vs. subset of clan. Why does it matter if some players switch between games? I remember one of my old clans had about 9 players, and when all were available for league matches, we would switch places after the rounds so that everyone could play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
^ This. Although I think what he means is you can't just halfway through one game think "Man we need someone who does this better" and swap him mid-round, when you've tech'd up. Although equally this could be disguised as a dropper anyway.
To be frank, scrap that rule. Clan play is all about team play, and you can use as many people as you want in your team in all competitive games during a round as long as you don't get more than the allowed amount on a server. I've never seen anyone silly enough to disturb that rule in any competitive game and I've played a lot of competitive online games.
<!--quoteo(post=1875712:date=Sep 20 2011, 09:47 AM:name=Raza.)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Raza. @ Sep 20 2011, 09:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1875712"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I still don't see why this is necessary. Think about it: Tournaments are supposed to be played clan vs. clan, not subset of clan vs. subset of clan. Why does it matter if some players switch between games? I remember one of my old clans had about 9 players, and when all were available for league matches, we would switch places after the rounds so that everyone could play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Could be bad wording, NS2HD keeps referring rounds as a game. I mean seriously that would be one stupid rule if you could not swap players between rounds or substitute dropped.
i think he means per elimination to be more precise so during one elimination you cannot switch out anyone till the next elimination match. as in one whole game
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
edited September 2011
<!--quoteo(post=1875650:date=Sep 19 2011, 11:10 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Sep 19 2011, 11:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1875650"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I suppose there's a bigger advantage to using that one than some of the other reasonable mods, but they all add an advantage in some way or another... They should just make the vanilla alien vision like the mod though, the normal alien vision is pretty annoying.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Did I say that it gives a bigger advantage than other mods? No.. But it gives an advantage over people not using it. And it was on your list of "allowed mods". Mods that gives advantages should be banned from the tournament. I agree that it should be made vanilla, even though I don't use it. But I guess UWE want to remake it themselves at some point.
As for the no-mods rule, I like the idea behind it. It's great for not having mods that give advantages in the game. But not so great a rule for mods that help you fix problems. I don't like the default crosshair, I instead use a white dot at the moment. I feel the default ones are obstructing my view, and making it harder to aim at the right spot. A thing like changing your crosshair to a simple white dot. Instead of the default crosshair, that can obstruct your view. That is a really annoying rule to be honest. UWE will most likely put in settings for other crosshairs later(post v1.0), so I don't see why not to allow custom crosshairs. I totally understand and respect your no-mod policy, but this should be allowed since it doesn't really give you any real advantage.
<!--quoteo(post=1875702:date=Sep 20 2011, 01:39 AM:name=NS2HD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NS2HD @ Sep 20 2011, 01:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1875702"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh! And Boxer'D I can't find your email address anywhere, can you shoot me another one at NS2HD@live.com.au? Hopeless I know. It's lucky I don't organise tournaments for a living, I'd be fired quicksmart!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1875773:date=Sep 20 2011, 03:29 PM:name=TrC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrC @ Sep 20 2011, 03:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1875773"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Could be bad wording, NS2HD keeps referring rounds as a game. I mean seriously that would be one stupid rule if you could not swap players between rounds or substitute dropped.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nope, he really means all rounds.
<!--quoteo(post=1875695:date=Sep 20 2011, 06:44 AM:name=NS2HD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NS2HD @ Sep 20 2011, 06:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1875695"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>Teams may substitute a single player during a match</b>, in case of a long disconnection.' Game being a single 'game' of NS2 leading to an Alien or Marine victory; <b>Match being a succession of games</b> leading to the progression of one team and the elimination of another.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1875709:date=Sep 20 2011, 04:20 PM:name=meb3)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (meb3 @ Sep 20 2011, 04:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1875709"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Teams dispute more often when money is on the line and emotions run high. How will you handle inevitable cheating accusations and disputes? If you choose to handle them at all, how will you verify if someone is cheating without a demo system or first-person spectator view implemented to provide evidence?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is covered in depth in the final section of the rules document. Have you read it?
<!--quoteo(post=1875785:date=Sep 21 2011, 12:26 AM:name=BJHBnade_spammer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BJHBnade_spammer @ Sep 21 2011, 12:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1875785"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i think he means per elimination to be more precise so during one elimination you cannot switch out anyone till the next elimination match. as in one whole game<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+ All other related posts.
There is obviously a massive semantic problem happening here, thanks to my odd wording. I'm going to completely rephrase the whole thing and use Tennis 'Games' and 'Matches' (but ignoring 'Sets') as the source point for the words I use. I probably should have done this earlier. So here goes, final, absolute last change of wording:
Two teams will play a sequence of 'Games' of NS2, each resulting in an Alien or Marine victory. The sequence of 'Games' will be called a 'Match,' the end result of which is the elimination of one team and the progression of another. A succession of Rounds containing Matches makes up the Tournament.
Teams may only substitute one player during a Match. The reason for this is administrative - You may think your team is disciplined enough to swap players in and out of a Match fast enough to keep to my aggressive casting timetable, but many teams won't be, and I can't take the chance. Many of you have very valid reasons for disliking this rule, but you need to step back and gain perspective. This is a very 'casting' focused tournament. There will be other tournaments set up by other people in the future, no doubt with more flexible rules.
<!--quoteo(post=1876000:date=Sep 21 2011, 11:13 AM:name=meb3)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (meb3 @ Sep 21 2011, 11:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1876000"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How do you know if someone's cheating if you're limited to third-person spectating?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1875695:date=Sep 20 2011, 02:44 PM:name=NS2HD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NS2HD @ Sep 20 2011, 02:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1875695"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you think I can't police [modding/hacking], you're very welcome to your opinion. However, that's not a productive opinion, and I would appreciate it if you kept it out of this thread.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well that's a bit dismissive. He raises a fair point that deserves some deliberation. Perhaps suggesting to the devs that first-person spectating be implemented short-term, it shouldn't be a very time-consuming feature to put in.
I am acutely aware of the need to implement measures to restrict cheating in the Tournament. The point has been made and I appreciate it being made, about twenty posts ago. There is no need to continue to make it, and the qoute I copied above is all I have to say on the matter.
If there are features you would like to see in NS2, including features you think could help restrict cheating, please post them in a dedicated thread.
This thread is for the discussion of the NS2HD tournament. Cheating has been raised, the point noted, and it's time to move on.
What does everyone think of the change I made in the rules document regarding winning a Match? I've changed it from best-of-three to two-in-a-row. I think I might have to implement some sort of time limit on Games to stop ######-fot-tat Matches blowing out past my casting slot limits. Thoughts on an appropriate time limit for a Game?
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
I feel that 45 minutes would be a better cap than 30 minutes for a round. Some rounds could last a little bit over 30 minutes, rounds that takes over 45 minutes have become a true stalemate.
<!--quoteo(post=1876069:date=Sep 21 2011, 12:02 PM:name=swalk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (swalk @ Sep 21 2011, 12:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1876069"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I feel that 45 minutes would be a better cap than 30 minutes for a round. Some rounds could last a little bit over 30 minutes, rounds that takes over 45 minutes have become a true stalemate.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
edited September 2011
<!--quoteo(post=1876234:date=Sep 22 2011, 05:47 AM:name=GeneralBowser)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GeneralBowser @ Sep 22 2011, 05:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1876234"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->45 min does sounds better.
You could also limit the game time depending of the rounds. Say round 1: 30 min, round 2: 35 min etc :-)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't really get that idea :P All rounds should have the same time frame.
<!--quoteo(post=1876009:date=Sep 21 2011, 03:01 AM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Sep 21 2011, 03:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1876009"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well that's a bit dismissive. He raises a fair point that deserves some deliberation. Perhaps suggesting to the devs that first-person spectating be implemented short-term, it shouldn't be a very time-consuming feature to put in.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can't understand why first person spectating isn't implemented to begin with. It's totally non-productive not to include it from a keen observers point of view, leading on to begin teaching new players.
<!--quoteo(post=1876958:date=Sep 26 2011, 07:30 AM:name=konata)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (konata @ Sep 26 2011, 07:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1876958"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I can't understand why first person spectating isn't implemented to begin with. It's totally non-productive not to include it from a keen observers point of view, leading on to begin teaching new players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Because it's not necessary at this stage of the game. For 1.0? Yes, it needs to be included.
Thanks for the input on Match times guys. I'm thinking given each Match will probably get a 1.5 hour slot, max Game times of 30 minutes to ensure there is time for at least three.
Speaking of Match times, I still need responses from the following teams:
Darkside Mr. TOG PUBlic Disturbance
If you need the form emailed to you again, email me and I will reply with the link. Scotty, I know you emailed before I went away for the weekend, I'll send it to you today.
Because I need to start organising the draw, I'm putting a <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro--><b>5 day time limit </b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->on the above teams returning information. If it's not in after 5 days, I'll have to throw open your slots to new teams, as tournament start is now only 31 days away! (Woo!)
Thanks for getting all your forms in guys! Just waiting on TOG now, but I've been in contact with them. I am going to start doing up a draft draw.
I think for the first round I will put everyone in the same geographical region into a random draw. That way the first round should be relatively lag free, and it should be easier to arrange timeslots.
EDIT - Actually also still waiting on Mr. Typical, the two Australian teams are the late ones! :D
<!--quoteo(post=1876918:date=Sep 26 2011, 01:53 AM:name=swalk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (swalk @ Sep 26 2011, 01:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1876918"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't really get that idea :P All rounds should have the same time frame.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hmm yeah maybe I wasn't very clear. With round 1 I mean when there are 16 teams left, round 2 8 teams left, then quarter-finals, semi-finals and finals
Comments
How will you handle inevitable cheating accusations and disputes?
If you choose to handle them at all, how will you verify if someone is cheating without a demo system or first-person spectator view implemented to provide evidence?
I still don't see why this is necessary. Think about it: Tournaments are supposed to be played clan vs. clan, not subset of clan vs. subset of clan. Why does it matter if some players switch between games?
I remember one of my old clans had about 9 players, and when all were available for league matches, we would switch places after the rounds so that everyone could play.
I remember one of my old clans had about 9 players, and when all were available for league matches, we would switch places after the rounds so that everyone could play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
^ This. Although I think what he means is you can't just halfway through one game think "Man we need someone who does this better" and swap him mid-round, when you've tech'd up. Although equally this could be disguised as a dropper anyway.
To be frank, scrap that rule. Clan play is all about team play, and you can use as many people as you want in your team in all competitive games during a round as long as you don't get more than the allowed amount on a server. I've never seen anyone silly enough to disturb that rule in any competitive game and I've played a lot of competitive online games.
I remember one of my old clans had about 9 players, and when all were available for league matches, we would switch places after the rounds so that everyone could play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Could be bad wording, NS2HD keeps referring rounds as a game. I mean seriously that would be one stupid rule if you could not swap players between rounds or substitute dropped.
Did I say that it gives a bigger advantage than other mods? No..
But it gives an advantage over people not using it. And it was on your list of "allowed mods".
Mods that gives advantages should be banned from the tournament.
I agree that it should be made vanilla, even though I don't use it.
But I guess UWE want to remake it themselves at some point.
As for the no-mods rule, I like the idea behind it.
It's great for not having mods that give advantages in the game.
But not so great a rule for mods that help you fix problems.
I don't like the default crosshair, I instead use a white dot at the moment.
I feel the default ones are obstructing my view, and making it harder to aim at the right spot.
A thing like changing your crosshair to a simple white dot. Instead of the default crosshair, that can obstruct your view. That is a really annoying rule to be honest.
UWE will most likely put in settings for other crosshairs later(post v1.0), so I don't see why not to allow custom crosshairs.
I totally understand and respect your no-mod policy, but this should be allowed since it doesn't really give you any real advantage.
YOUR FIRED! :P
<3 Bromance.
Nope, he really means all rounds.
<!--quoteo(post=1875695:date=Sep 20 2011, 06:44 AM:name=NS2HD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NS2HD @ Sep 20 2011, 06:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1875695"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>Teams may substitute a single player during a match</b>, in case of a long disconnection.' Game being a single 'game' of NS2 leading to an Alien or Marine victory; <b>Match being a succession of games</b> leading to the progression of one team and the elimination of another.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is covered in depth in the final section of the rules document. Have you read it?
<!--quoteo(post=1875785:date=Sep 21 2011, 12:26 AM:name=BJHBnade_spammer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BJHBnade_spammer @ Sep 21 2011, 12:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1875785"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i think he means per elimination to be more precise so during one elimination you cannot switch out anyone till the next elimination match. as in one whole game<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+ All other related posts.
There is obviously a massive semantic problem happening here, thanks to my odd wording. I'm going to completely rephrase the whole thing and use Tennis 'Games' and 'Matches' (but ignoring 'Sets') as the source point for the words I use. I probably should have done this earlier. So here goes, final, absolute last change of wording:
Two teams will play a sequence of 'Games' of NS2, each resulting in an Alien or Marine victory. The sequence of 'Games' will be called a 'Match,' the end result of which is the elimination of one team and the progression of another. A succession of Rounds containing Matches makes up the Tournament.
Teams may only substitute one player during a Match. The reason for this is administrative - You may think your team is disciplined enough to swap players in and out of a Match fast enough to keep to my aggressive casting timetable, but many teams won't be, and I can't take the chance. Many of you have very valid reasons for disliking this rule, but you need to step back and gain perspective. This is a very 'casting' focused tournament. There will be other tournaments set up by other people in the future, no doubt with more flexible rules.
EDIT: Comprehensively updated <a href="https://docs.google.com/document/d/1vJJbwHX4M8kBcRoYOhZl5TcpKIatTNsNkUGw9Lo7DmE/edit?hl=en_GB" target="_blank">the rules document.</a>
<!--quoteo(post=1875695:date=Sep 20 2011, 02:44 PM:name=NS2HD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NS2HD @ Sep 20 2011, 02:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1875695"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you think I can't police [modding/hacking], you're very welcome to your opinion. However, that's not a productive opinion, and I would appreciate it if you kept it out of this thread.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If there are features you would like to see in NS2, including features you think could help restrict cheating, please post them in a dedicated thread.
This thread is for the discussion of the NS2HD tournament. Cheating has been raised, the point noted, and it's time to move on.
What does everyone think of the change I made in the rules document regarding winning a Match? I've changed it from best-of-three to two-in-a-row. I think I might have to implement some sort of time limit on Games to stop ######-fot-tat Matches blowing out past my casting slot limits. Thoughts on an appropriate time limit for a Game?
Edit: Woops... unexpected swear filter there! Umm... 'back-and-forth' ?
Some rounds could last a little bit over 30 minutes, rounds that takes over 45 minutes have become a true stalemate.
Some rounds could last a little bit over 30 minutes, rounds that takes over 45 minutes have become a true stalemate.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1
You could also limit the game time depending of the rounds. Say round 1: 30 min, round 2: 35 min etc :-)
You could also limit the game time depending of the rounds. Say round 1: 30 min, round 2: 35 min etc :-)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't really get that idea :P
All rounds should have the same time frame.
I can't understand why first person spectating isn't implemented to begin with. It's totally non-productive not to include it from a keen observers point of view, leading on to begin teaching new players.
Because it's not necessary at this stage of the game. For 1.0? Yes, it needs to be included.
Speaking of Match times, I still need responses from the following teams:
Darkside
Mr.
TOG
PUBlic Disturbance
If you need the form emailed to you again, email me and I will reply with the link. Scotty, I know you emailed before I went away for the weekend, I'll send it to you today.
Because I need to start organising the draw, I'm putting a <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro--><b>5 day time limit </b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->on the above teams returning information. If it's not in after 5 days, I'll have to throw open your slots to new teams, as tournament start is now only 31 days away! (Woo!)
By the time the tournament begins, we may see the onos in action.
(Assuming build 186 is released soon and the onos is in build 187).
I think for the first round I will put everyone in the same geographical region into a random draw. That way the first round should be relatively lag free, and it should be easier to arrange timeslots.
EDIT - Actually also still waiting on Mr. Typical, the two Australian teams are the late ones! :D
All rounds should have the same time frame.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmm yeah maybe I wasn't very clear. With round 1 I mean when there are 16 teams left, round 2 8 teams left, then quarter-finals, semi-finals and finals