Hive teleport and Res for Kill

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  • countbasiecountbasie Join Date: 2008-12-27 Member: 65884Members
    edited October 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=1991356:date=Oct 14 2012, 08:12 PM:name=swalk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (swalk @ Oct 14 2012, 08:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1991356"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I disagree with you.
    It was mainly because of the randomness of 1-3 res.
    If it would have been 1 res every time. The problem would be gone.
    (...)
    They simply come out too late with the low starting pres and no RFK.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I don't quite get how you disagree with me. Random RFK may be bad, I don't know, never had a problem with that in NS1. However, you don't repel the idea of RFK.
    So leaving the starting res at 20 and having 1 RFK would be good for you?

    EDIT: Oh yeah, true, lowering the starting res doesn't help the game overall, got your point.
  • TweadleTweadle Join Date: 2005-02-03 Member: 39686Members, NS2 Map Tester
    "+1 RFK" is a far superior model to the "-X RFD" model:

    1) It's easier to explain
    2) It's easier to quantify
    3) Psychologically, rewarding good play is preferable to punishing bad play
    4) It scales better with performance (I could kill two people before dying for instance, rather than none)
    5) It's not random
    6) It promotes active, not passive, gameplay
    7) More variance means better 'tech explosion' mitigation
  • ChickenOfWarChickenOfWar Join Date: 2003-04-09 Member: 15352Members
    edited October 2012
    Again, RFK is not a good idea. All it will do is further separate the really good players from the just okay ones in pub matches. Imagine the amount of people that are going to get completely stomped come october 31st already. Now imagine how many more will get stomped when someone from one of the clans can go fade that much earlier in a pub game. People wont wanna play after that. RFK <i>might</i> have a place in competitive matches.

    I agree though that aliens should have some way to get back to their hive faster. Upgrade towers get sniped way too easily. Its unfair that aliens have to pay so much more attention to the map than marines. If the marine base is in trouble its a simple hop and a skip through a phase gate or in worst case a cheap beacon. Aliens dont have any such luxury, when they're the ones that need it the most. During the guru tournament finals archaea rushed a hive with shotguns and it went from 100% health to 0% health in I kid you not <b>thirteen seconds</b>. Go count, I'm not exaggerating. If the marines can have a contingency plan in these events, aliens should get one too.
  • countbasiecountbasie Join Date: 2008-12-27 Member: 65884Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1991387:date=Oct 14 2012, 09:48 PM:name=ChickenOfWar)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ChickenOfWar @ Oct 14 2012, 09:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1991387"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Again, RFK is not a good idea. All it will do is further separate the really good players from the just okay ones in pub matches. Imagine the amount of people that are going to get completely stomped come october 31st already. Now imagine how many more will get stomped when someone from one of the clans can go fade that much earlier in a pub game. People wont wanna play after that. RFK <i>might</i> have a place in competitive matches.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    No, sorry, that's not a good point. Actually the only newbie I ever saw that complained about the game asked 'and now? Can't I do anything to get the higher lifeforms?' I know that was only one example, but it happened. In newer games the 'crowd' plays, people are used to earn stuff by playing good.
    Also it is not possible to make game-mechanics for newbies, because when you learned the game, you will miss the deeper stuff. You can only help newbies to learn the game how it works the best. And when you say RFK 'might' be good for competitive play, you seem to not think that it would make the game itself worse.
    Imagine new people are owned by us and don't even say 'yeah, some more kills and I can give it back to him'. Now the only thing they can do is getting owned and wait for res. I don't see how this is more satisfying and ambitious.
  • Zomb3hZomb3h Join Date: 2011-01-27 Member: 79241Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited October 2012
    So many features from NS1 were somehow implemented after countless experiments (most notably the Fade blink momentum, even though it definitely still isn't as maneuverable as NS1) with new ideas.

    This is definitely a feature that should be implemented. It feels like NS1 is really a forgotten step-child when it comes to good gameplay mechanics [even though RFK certaintly isn't one imo.]

    and hive teleportation is a must.

    Otherwise, Kharaa are better off having higher health/armor for the upgrade chambers.

    Let's be honest here, in no way can you take out an arms lab before the commander beacons everyone <u>in the same time</u> you can take out 3 Kharaa upgrades.
  • TweadleTweadle Join Date: 2005-02-03 Member: 39686Members, NS2 Map Tester
    edited October 2012
    A +1 RFK is a small drop in an ocean of mechanics that "further separate" players. You're talking about a game where you can evolve into killing machines, buy your own weapons and where snowball mechanics run riot. I've never understood why people kick up a fuss for a paltry +1 res - it just seems disingenuous in the wider context.

    <!--quoteo(post=1991408:date=Oct 14 2012, 10:53 PM:name=countbasie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (countbasie @ Oct 14 2012, 10:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1991408"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Now the only thing they can do is getting owned and wait for res. I don't see how this is more satisfying and ambitious.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I like this point. It doesn't matter that experienced players are gaining an advantage from something if its also how an inexperienced player feels like he might claw it back. Noobies love buying guns, for example, yet being able to purchase your own weapons is far more guilty of separating players.

    I'd spend time arguing why such mechanics aren't necessarily a bad thing but it seems like it would be a moot point anyway. The game is geared that way at its core and the -X RFK model's implementation already fulfils the same function, only more awkwardly.
  • meb10meb10 Join Date: 2012-10-14 Member: 162326Members
    I agree with Tweadle. There should be further rewards for highly skilled play.
  • Zomb3hZomb3h Join Date: 2011-01-27 Member: 79241Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    <!--quoteo(post=1991334:date=Oct 14 2012, 02:43 PM:name=Onii-chan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Onii-chan @ Oct 14 2012, 02:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1991334"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hive teleporting is probably not needed with the current celerity and maps.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Strongly disagree.

    Saying Celerity fills the role of Hive Teleportation is a huge cop-out by UWE due to the fact that structures such as upgrades/harvesters have such a low health/armor in comparison to Marine structures.

    And don't tell me "HURR ITS CUZ ASYMMETRY". It's "complete bull" is what it is. And it's also not fun.

    If anyone has played the NS2:C mod, you'll see how useful and challenging Hive Teleportation can be.
  • sushia11sushia11 Join Date: 2012-10-12 Member: 162112Members
    The idea that hive teleporting should be given to aliens goes against the rest of the alien movement logic. Marines move slow, but can skip over terrain to get to their destination, but aliens use sheer speed to get from place to place.

    Hive tele would degrade the usefulness of celerity as well as itself. Most of the evos give some kind of movement gain.

    The reason I think Marine beacon is balanced is because it leaves other valuable structures and exos vulnerable. If aliens were to beacon, then they could just use celerity to protect their bases. They wouldn't have to be picky about when to beacon. And if they were to mirror exos, would the onos not be allowed to beacon?

    Another reason marines get beacon is because of alien rushes. It's used mostly in urgent situations when the power node is damaged. But the aliens don't have a structure like the power node. The closest thing to that is cysts, and they can be rebuilt with just the commander.
  • Zomb3hZomb3h Join Date: 2011-01-27 Member: 79241Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    <!--quoteo(post=1991419:date=Oct 14 2012, 06:26 PM:name=sushia11)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (sushia11 @ Oct 14 2012, 06:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1991419"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The idea that hive teleporting should be given to aliens goes against the rest of the alien movement logic. Marines move slow, but can skip over terrain to get to their destination, but aliens use sheer speed to get from place to place.

    Hive tele would degrade the usefulness of celerity as well as itself. Most of the evos give some kind of movement gain.

    The reason I think Marine beacon is balanced is because it leaves other valuable structures and exos vulnerable. If aliens were to beacon, then they could just use celerity to protect their bases. They wouldn't have to be picky about when to beacon. And if they were to mirror exos, would the onos not be allowed to beacon?

    Another reason marines get beacon is because of alien rushes. It's used mostly in urgent situations when the power node is damaged. But the aliens don't have a structure like the power node. The closest thing to that is cysts, and they can be rebuilt with just the commander.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    You're clearly missing the point here.

    Celerity = Useless.

    By the time you reach the hive, *x* structure has already been destroyed.
  • kastkast Join Date: 2003-11-13 Member: 22791Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    impossible. this would represent a buff to aliens and therefore is not plausible.
  • TinkerTinker Join Date: 2003-03-11 Member: 14395Members
    Why did they remove egg choosing anyway? It was an eggcelent system.
  • ChickenOfWarChickenOfWar Join Date: 2003-04-09 Member: 15352Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1991408:date=Oct 14 2012, 05:53 PM:name=countbasie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (countbasie @ Oct 14 2012, 05:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1991408"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No, sorry, that's not a good point. Actually the only newbie I ever saw that complained about the game asked 'and now? Can't I do anything to get the higher lifeforms?' I know that was only one example, but it happened. In newer games the 'crowd' plays, people are used to earn stuff by playing good.
    Also it is not possible to make game-mechanics for newbies, because when you learned the game, you will miss the deeper stuff. You can only help newbies to learn the game how it works the best. And when you say RFK 'might' be good for competitive play, you seem to not think that it would make the game itself worse.
    Imagine new people are owned by us and don't even say 'yeah, some more kills and I can give it back to him'. Now the only thing they can do is getting owned and wait for res. I don't see how this is more satisfying and ambitious.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Im not saying the current system is the best it can be, I'm just saying RFK is very discouraging for new players. If everyone were the same skill level or perhaps this game didn't become so one sided once one really good person gets on a team then RFK would have a place here.
  • ChickenOfWarChickenOfWar Join Date: 2003-04-09 Member: 15352Members
    edited October 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=1991419:date=Oct 14 2012, 06:26 PM:name=sushia11)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (sushia11 @ Oct 14 2012, 06:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1991419"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The idea that hive teleporting should be given to aliens goes against the rest of the alien movement logic. Marines move slow, but can skip over terrain to get to their destination, but aliens use sheer speed to get from place to place.

    Hive tele would degrade the usefulness of celerity as well as itself. Most of the evos give some kind of movement gain.

    The reason I think Marine beacon is balanced is because it leaves other valuable structures and exos vulnerable. If aliens were to beacon, then they could just use celerity to protect their bases. They wouldn't have to be picky about when to beacon. And if they were to mirror exos, would the onos not be allowed to beacon?

    Another reason marines get beacon is because of alien rushes. It's used mostly in urgent situations when the power node is damaged. But the aliens don't have a structure like the power node. The closest thing to that is cysts, and they can be rebuilt with just the commander.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    The usefulness of celerity is apparent more in combat than out of combat, despite what UWE thinks. Also read my post about arc killing a hive in literally thirteen seconds in the latest tournament. If the same thing had been attempted to a team of marines its a simple matter of beaconing to save the location.
  • SkieSkie Skulk Progenitor Join Date: 2003-10-18 Member: 21766Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow
    The beacon's downside is that it teleports the entire team. That's why you need to attack two places at once as aliens to be really effective. But the marines still DO have phasegates. It would be cool to see something similar for aliens.
  • SixtyWattManSixtyWattMan Join Date: 2004-09-05 Member: 31404Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1991419:date=Oct 14 2012, 05:26 PM:name=sushia11)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (sushia11 @ Oct 14 2012, 05:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1991419"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The idea that hive teleporting should be given to aliens goes against the rest of the alien movement logic. Marines move slow, but can skip over terrain to get to their destination, but aliens use sheer speed to get from place to place.

    Hive tele would degrade the usefulness of celerity as well as itself. Most of the evos give some kind of movement gain.

    The reason I think Marine beacon is balanced is because it leaves other valuable structures and exos vulnerable. If aliens were to beacon, then they could just use celerity to protect their bases. They wouldn't have to be picky about when to beacon. And if they were to mirror exos, would the onos not be allowed to beacon?

    Another reason marines get beacon is because of alien rushes. It's used mostly in urgent situations when the power node is damaged. But the aliens don't have a structure like the power node. The closest thing to that is cysts, and they can be rebuilt with just the commander.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Marines DON'T move slow.
  • ChickenOfWarChickenOfWar Join Date: 2003-04-09 Member: 15352Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1991467:date=Oct 14 2012, 08:07 PM:name=SixtyWattMan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SixtyWattMan @ Oct 14 2012, 08:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1991467"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Marines DON'T move slow.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Especially if said marines drop their pistols... just dropping the pistol makes you a good chunk faster.
  • countbasiecountbasie Join Date: 2008-12-27 Member: 65884Members
    edited October 2012
    Yeah, and we don't want beacon for aliens. We are talking about hive teleport.

    EDIT: Charlie said somewhere to this topic that they want to keep the sides asymmetrical. And still, hive teleport is neither a beacon nor a PG equivalent.
  • ChickenOfWarChickenOfWar Join Date: 2003-04-09 Member: 15352Members
    The hive teleport could even have downsides and would still solve so many problems. Perhaps it would be fair if you're only be able to use the hive teleport if you're a skulk, gorge or lerk. Alluding to the fact that exos cant be beaconed or use phase gates. Perhaps when you use the hive teleport an egg appears at the hive you're going to that you will pop out of after maybe 3-5 seconds. This gives the marines there a chance to stop the teleporting lifeforms. This could be easily abused though, you should probably spawn out of a random egg and have the egg you generated stay there as a replacement.
  • countbasiecountbasie Join Date: 2008-12-27 Member: 65884Members
    edited October 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=1991482:date=Oct 15 2012, 01:39 AM:name=ChickenOfWar)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ChickenOfWar @ Oct 15 2012, 01:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1991482"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The hive teleport could even have downsides and would still solve so many problems. Perhaps it would be fair if you're only be able to use the hive teleport if you're a skulk, gorge or lerk. Alluding to the fact that exos cant be beaconed or use phase gates. Perhaps when you use the hive teleport an egg appears at the hive you're going to that you will pop out of after maybe 3-5 seconds. This gives the marines there a chance to stop the teleporting lifeforms. This could be easily abused though, you should probably spawn out of a random egg and have the egg you generated stay there as a replacement.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    No, please no restrictions. The Onos is the main problem. The team spends 75 res on an onos and can't even use it defend a hive (only by luck). Also when he'd spawn into an egg, he is <i>again</i> in danger to be egg killed.
  • ChickenOfWarChickenOfWar Join Date: 2003-04-09 Member: 15352Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1991486:date=Oct 14 2012, 08:43 PM:name=countbasie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (countbasie @ Oct 14 2012, 08:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1991486"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No, please no restrictions. The Onos is the main problem. The team spends 75 res on an onos and can't even use it defend a hive (only by luck). Also when he'd spawn into an egg, he is <i>again</i> in danger to be egg killed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Marines don't have issues with exos not being able to beacon, unless the alien team uses incredible teamwork. The only thing the hive teleport would be for is emergencies. Everything else should require strategy and forethought.

    I also said only skulks, gorges and maybe lerks should be able to port to the hive. The onos would therefore never be vulnerable in their egg 'again'.
  • countbasiecountbasie Join Date: 2008-12-27 Member: 65884Members
    edited October 2012
    Well, I think it should not be for emergencies only. Walking as an Onos from pipe to sub is just...I think 'sad' is a good word. I came up with that word after watching some more streams. The problem is even worse than I thought. Even watching the Onos from the top running around the whole map, with a Gorge behind him, looks sad.

    EDIT: An Onos that teleports right in front of rushing marines does never look sad. It looks like '<i>booom</i> here I am'. That's never a bad thing.
  • ChickenOfWarChickenOfWar Join Date: 2003-04-09 Member: 15352Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1991492:date=Oct 14 2012, 09:10 PM:name=countbasie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (countbasie @ Oct 14 2012, 09:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1991492"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well, I think it should not be for emergencies only. Walking as an Onos from pipe to sub is just...I think 'sad' is a good word. I came up with that word after watching some more streams. The problem is even worse than I thought. Even watching the Onos from the top running around the whole map, with a Gorge behind him, looks sad.

    EDIT: An Onos that teleports right in front of rushing marines does never look sad. It looks like '<i>booom</i> here I am'. That's never a bad thing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    And what word describes an exo walking from marine spawn to pipe on veil?
  • countbasiecountbasie Join Date: 2008-12-27 Member: 65884Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1991501:date=Oct 15 2012, 02:25 AM:name=ChickenOfWar)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ChickenOfWar @ Oct 15 2012, 02:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1991501"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And what word describes an exo walking from marine spawn to pipe on veil?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    The same. I'd like Exos being able to phase and get weaker instead. You don't want to use Exos vs. a good alien team, because beacon means your exos are lost, since they can't weld each other.
  • ChickenOfWarChickenOfWar Join Date: 2003-04-09 Member: 15352Members
    Look the fact of the matter is at least this way theres a chance some type of hive teleport will happen. Any other way (such as an onos being to teleport between hives) is probably not going to happen. At least with my idea there are some parallels to the way its balanced for marines.
  • countbasiecountbasie Join Date: 2008-12-27 Member: 65884Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1991509:date=Oct 15 2012, 02:42 AM:name=ChickenOfWar)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ChickenOfWar @ Oct 15 2012, 02:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1991509"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Look the fact of the matter is at least this way theres a chance some type of hive teleport will happen. Any other way (such as an onos being to teleport between hives) is probably not going to happen. At least with my idea there are some parallels to the way its balanced for marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    It has to happen. Charlie should look at NS2HDs streams and he will see, that instant hive teleport for aliens is necessary. Or he wants an organized hive rush to be a definite hive loss. It was different in NS1 and proven to be fun and challenging and leading to more big battles.
    Right now marines sit in the hive, kill eggs and then aliens who come one after another from somewhere else. Don't wanna talk anymore, it's so obvious.
  • Zomb3hZomb3h Join Date: 2011-01-27 Member: 79241Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    I don't see how anyone would <b>not</b> be annoyed with the lack of Hive Teleportation.

    Onos not being able to use it is one plausible balance approach.

    Regardless, this needs to be implemented. Imagine spending almost 1-minute to travel back to the hive as a Skulk, DIE, then end up spawning on a set of Shift eggs.

    THAT is probably when choosing eggs would be a problem, in addition to the lack of Hive teleportation.

    The end-result just concludes in being a buzz-kill without these abilities.
  • countbasiecountbasie Join Date: 2008-12-27 Member: 65884Members
    BTW, 1.5 RFK would be pretty good.
  • ChickenOfWarChickenOfWar Join Date: 2003-04-09 Member: 15352Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1991511:date=Oct 14 2012, 10:04 PM:name=countbasie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (countbasie @ Oct 14 2012, 10:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1991511"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It has to happen. Charlie should look at NS2HDs streams and he will see, that instant hive teleport for aliens is necessary. Or he wants an organized hive rush to be a definite hive loss. It was different in NS1 and proven to be fun and challenging and leading to more big battles.
    Right now marines sit in the hive, kill eggs and then aliens who come one after another from somewhere else. Don't wanna talk anymore, it's so obvious.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I'd like hive teleport in the game, I'm just also offering ways to balance it so that theres a larger chance it'll get into the game in some form rather than not at all o.O

    Even just skulks and gorges able to teleport to the hive will solve so many problems, from rambos sniping upgrades to defending against rushes.
  • MestaritonttuMestaritonttu Join Date: 2004-07-29 Member: 30229Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold
    +1 pres per kill. ONE PERSONAL RESOURCE. ONE.

    Doesn't do diddly squat. Even if someone has 20 kills more than others (which would be INSANE) that'd only give him one shotgun as marine (big deal) or a couple minutes quicker Fade (something, but hardly gamebreaking).
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