<!--quoteo(post=1991941:date=Oct 16 2012, 06:37 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Oct 16 2012, 06:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1991941"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In multiplayer games I typically regard presence as at least having an actual player there.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> But cant a marine comm build with macs?
So this whole "player presence" argument should also result in macs no longer being able to build.
Hive teleportation is needed, marines can easily get around the map after about 3-4 min in thanks to phase tech.
Aliens cant even come close to moving those distances in anywhere near the time.
Couple that with the spurs, shells etc that 1 marine can easily take out (not to mention damage a couple can do to a hive) and you have 1 side who is meant to have a movement penalty being far superior at moving around the map before most pepole have stopped gloating in the RR and joined.
I recall one of the team saying "we will bring in hive teleportation when we see a need"....I guess not being able to defend your res investments on the alien side isn't considered a reason to bring it in. I guess that not being able to maintain a movement advantage over your opposition after the 4 min mark is not a reason. Oh well...
<!--quoteo(post=1992187:date=Oct 16 2012, 12:12 PM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Oct 16 2012, 12:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1992187"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But cant a marine comm build with macs?
So this whole "player presence" argument should also result in macs no longer being able to build.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True enough, but you know what I mean. I suppose my definition of presence doesn't hold for that.
All I'm saying is, if I hold reactor core and crevice, and have phase gates in both with turrets all over the place, and marines permanently posted there and checking the vents, I don't want the entire alien team to suddenly come bounding out of the previously unoccupied atrium hive. Isn't that strategically counter intuitive? I think its already bad enough that you can simply build a hive anywhere you want whenever you want.
<!--quoteo(post=1992206:date=Oct 16 2012, 08:34 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Oct 16 2012, 08:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1992206"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't want the entire alien team to suddenly come bounding out of the previously unoccupied atrium hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So its fair for marines to be the only ones that can?
<!--quoteo(post=1992206:date=Oct 16 2012, 08:34 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Oct 16 2012, 08:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1992206"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->True enough, but you know what I mean. I suppose my definition of presence doesn't hold for that.
All I'm saying is, if I hold reactor core and crevice, and have phase gates in both with turrets all over the place, and marines permanently posted there and checking the vents, I don't want the entire alien team to suddenly come bounding out of the previously unoccupied atrium hive. Isn't that strategically counter intuitive? I think its already bad enough that you can simply build a hive anywhere you want whenever you want.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well unless the hive is now built that would not happen as you could only teleport to unbuilt hives if marines attack it. I am also assuming they code so friendly fire doesn't trigger hive under attack ala NS1 (but that was only clan games as FF is off on most pubs so for most people it never happened).
I disagree that aliens can build what ever when ever...that was the case for MARINES in NS1 but has never been the case for aliens. Who have always been limited to certain locations to be able to build (no ninja corridor hives).
<!--quoteo(post=1992207:date=Oct 16 2012, 12:36 PM:name=Codeine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Codeine @ Oct 16 2012, 12:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1992207"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So its fair for marines to be the only ones that can?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1992212:date=Oct 16 2012, 12:57 PM:name=Codeine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Codeine @ Oct 16 2012, 12:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1992212"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Tell your buddies to phase through and do it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1992216:date=Oct 16 2012, 09:11 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Oct 16 2012, 09:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1992216"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How do you get the phase gate there?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Phase gates already there in your little story. You seem to be fending two areas with two phase gates, from what i do not know assuming the hive is being built, why dont you tell your team to come kill the hive if your concerned about aliens killing you.
Imbalanxd, please stop troll-filling the thread. We already stated that it is possible to have an alien being inside the hive that activates the teleport function. When you are still against hive teleport, it should have other reasons.
Just want to remember: <!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Look at the games you play and watch the streams. It's still necessary to have hive teleport. No faster celerity, no egg spawn; hive teleport it is.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
Wouldnt it be nice to have either an ability for the skulk or the gorge to retrieve PRes from chewed marines buildings ? This ability would have less DPS than bite thus leaving a choice to the aliens to either destroy buildings at a slow pace but with a gain of res ( marines can defend them more easily) either go for "the kill"
Giving to gorge or another form would legitimate the hyper transmutation ( or whatever its name is ) encouraging players to use it / use the class to which it is assigned.
Regarding the hive teleport from what I've seen in the Guru tournament, some kind of fast traveling should be there for aliens. Why not a vortex chamber that allows travels only between chambers ( like pg ) but only for lesser forms ( like i've seen it expressed here before ), onos and fade should travel the distance while skulk/gorge/lerk could use that. That would cost Team res as it costs for marines and allow aliens to travel only from one point to another ( or to put back the movement chamber teleport to nearest hive only ).
I will just drop my 2 cents here. <u>HiveTeleport:</u> I agree that aliens need something to move faster over the map. But I don't want to have the NS1 incarnation of that for NS2. Because it further favors shift-hive first. You can't make it work for unbuilt hives (or you can instantly teleport forces to any free techpoint) and it would just look ###### when an onos pops out of thin air. So if any, you would need to restrict it to skulks and maybe gorges. You would need at least some kind of "plopping out of the hive" animation to not make it look totally awkward. Eggs are not a solution, they are the first target for marines anyway.
A much better idea is the nydus-canal thing for the gorge. Its restrictions balances it very well. It does not only need a player who goes gorge and places the two from his personal res, you would also need infestation to place it. It would have very little health. The gorge had to build / heal it after placing it. It should only be use-able for skulks and not instant-travel. (maybe gorges too) It can even be needed to be researched by the kham if it is to powerful in the early game. Being able to place it on walls; the tactical options it introduces to the game and the increased importance of the gorge make it much better than a boring hive-teleport. I don't even think that such a cool mechanic should be neglected because of asymmetry only for the sake of asymmetry. I mean, it isn't even exactly the same like a phasegate. Sadly this will have to wait after 1.0 but I'm looking forward to have this feature. It would be sooo cool.
<u>Res For Kills:</u> This has been discussed to death several times. The outcome was every-time, that there are simply more negative aspects than positive. <b>Positive</b><ul><li>Weakens the undesired tech explosion (=Every player gets higher tier tech at the same time.)</li><li>Creates an additional reward for the player who achieved the last hit on an enemy (Is only really positive if the scoring system is changed, so the player who did the most damage gets the kill.)</li></ul> <b>Negative</b><ul><li>Further increases the distance between good and bad players. -> Snowballing (Extreme-example: a good player can rack up enough kills to go fade early and with the fade he is so powerful that this good player will never have to play skulk again in this round, because he always gets enough kills to buy a new fade.)</li><li>In a ranged-VS-melee game the ranged team has the option to defend / turtle and rack up kills without dieing. The melee team is always forced to get up close and risk death and therefor feeding the enemy team. (With a team where the default-alien is a suicide-runner, RFK is very biased to favor the other team.)</li><li>It has the potential to create more hate towards bad players, because they hurt the team with dieing / feeding. (Has happened in NS1!)</li><li>It increases the viability of turtle-strategies. Even if it is p-res-for-kill in NS2 instead of how it was in NS1, this will lead to more marine-base-turtles.</li></ul>No claim that this lists are complete.
So: No, RFK would hurt the game more than it does for it. And for what? It isn't simply worth it. The only kind of this incarnation I can see work, would be a researchable upgrade for the skulk (and only for them!). That allows skulks to "eat" dead marines to get 1pres.
<!--quoteo(post=1992293:date=Oct 16 2012, 01:57 PM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Oct 16 2012, 01:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1992293"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I will just drop my 2 cents here. <u>HiveTeleport:</u> Because it further favors shift-hive first. You can't make it work for unbuilt hives (or you can instantly teleport forces to any free techpoint) and it would just look ###### when an onos pops out of thin air.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It doesn't favor shift hive, when you don't need a shift to teleport between hives. In NS1 MCs would be dropped first to get Cele. Just like in NS2 I guess. The problem of the visuals could be solved like they are already for the fade.
To RFK: it doesn't have to be RFK. I'm talking about a dynamic way to gain rewards, which would be res, collected by actions.
Are you saying, Necro, that the game is dynamic and balanced enough to play it like that the next months, when an easy fix could make it better?
I am amused at how much incorrect info about NS1 Hive teleport is in this thread.
You could only teleport to built Hives, hives that were under attack (taking damage), or if a player +use on the unbuilt Hive. So it either required the enemy attacking it or player presense, or a fully built Hive to do offensive Hive Drops. And remember unbuilt Hive = low life Hive, so often it could be killed promptly if not properly supported. One of the best ways to punish Aliens was wait for a Gorge to drop the Hive, kill it, then get everyone together to quickly shoot down the Hive while Aliens scramble across the map since they can't Hive Teleport tot he unbuilt Hive.
This was an innate ability in NSv3.2, and did not require any chambers to work.
<!--quoteo(post=1992293:date=Oct 16 2012, 06:57 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Oct 16 2012, 06:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1992293"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><u>Res For Kills:</u> This has been discussed to death several times. The outcome was every-time, that there are simply more negative aspects than positive. <b>Positive</b><ul><li>Weakens the undesired tech explosion (=Every player gets higher tier tech at the same time.)</li><li>Creates an additional reward for the player who achieved the last hit on an enemy (Is only really positive if the scoring system is changed, so the player who did the most damage gets the kill.)</li></ul> <b>Negative</b><ul><li>Further increases the distance between good and bad players. -> Snowballing (Extreme-example: a good player can rack up enough kills to go fade early and with the fade he is so powerful that this good player will never have to play skulk again in this round, because he always gets enough kills to buy a new fade.)</li><li>In a ranged-VS-melee game the ranged team has the option to defend / turtle and rack up kills without dieing. The melee team is always forced to get up close and risk death and therefor feeding the enemy team. (With a team where the default-alien is a suicide-runner, RFK is very biased to favor the other team.)</li><li>It has the potential to create more hate towards bad players, because they hurt the team with dieing / feeding. (Has happened in NS1!)</li><li>It increases the viability of turtle-strategies. Even if it is p-res-for-kill in NS2 instead of how it was in NS1, this will lead to more marine-base-turtles.</li></ul>No claim that this lists are complete.
So: No, RFK would hurt the game more than it does for it. And for what? It isn't simply worth it. The only kind of this incarnation I can see work, would be a researchable upgrade for the skulk (and only for them!). That allows skulks to "eat" dead marines to get 1pres.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't agree on all points.
I agree biggest threat is the snowball effect of good players. We used to live in Fear of one player who would get a lot of kills then kill everyone as a Fade.
But I see some of those negatives as a feature. The ability to turtle up for Marines and Aliens was a vital component. If you were foolish and didn't kill them off, they could get enough res from the kills to break out. Unlikely, but it offered the possibility. Similarly, Aliens could meatgrinder a position if the Marines were foolish to help turn around a game. Marines were much better at pressing through the Alien defences with Siege and GLs and HMGs, which fit thematically and is the perfet example of how Marines acted as faster-than-linear growth beasts against the mobility of individual Aliens. That being said, I've had games where the Aliens were down RTs and came back via RFK. It opens up the viability of strategies.
So yes, it's a flawed system. Feeding is a problem. The Snowball of skilled players is a problem (Especially on Aliens getting powerful lifeforms). But it is better than no RFK imo. Especially if we cap it at only 1 RFK instead of the random 1-3 of NS2, and we will have to tweak the res model toa ccount for the new income flow for individual players.
We can discuss new ways to refactor it for NS2 to help keep the lid on the snowballing. If we make it researchable, I'd hope it's researchable for both sides. It shouldn't take an upgrade slot though. Giving it only to Skulk and perhaps Gorge would be interesting. Or adding it to Hypermutation would make an even stranger dynamic. I'm all ears for new concepts.
Hive to hive teleport is silly, unintuitive and just ends up getting you killed by spawncampers.
Just give the Gorge a Nydus-like structure, and make him more like the TF2 engi. This way you can hide them behind a corner near the hive. Unusable by an Onos, of course.
Imbalanxd I dont think hive teleport would be balanced in NS2 on unbuilt hives. But we need it for built ones at the very least. Probably only hives with eggs even.
All this mumbo-jumbo about eggs and non-Onos teleportation makes me just want to stick with NS2:C.
Assuming a successful release occurs, if people are playing NS2:C in playable numbers, it'd probably be safer to just join those games if the current NS2 gameplay isn't adjusted accordingly to give the Kharaa a chance to have some sort of contingency plan <i>like</i> (OOPS I SAID LIKE, MEANS ITS SYMMETRICAL OH NOOO!) the Marines.
<!--quoteo(post=1992462:date=Oct 16 2012, 10:48 PM:name=countbasie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (countbasie @ Oct 16 2012, 10:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1992462"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Are you saying, Necro, that the game is dynamic and balanced enough to play it like that the next months, when an easy fix could make it better?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No. I have only stated, that I think RFK has more downsides than upsides and that I think there could be a much better solution than hive-teleport.
<!--quoteo(post=1992514:date=Oct 17 2012, 12:45 AM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spellman23 @ Oct 17 2012, 12:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1992514"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But I see some of those negatives as a feature. The ability to turtle up for Marines and Aliens was a vital component.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Than I think it is a question of personal opinion. Because I literally hate games where the marines turtle for an endless time. This "fight to the last blood drop" was fun a few times. But it wore off very fast and now its only boring for me. Also you haven't answered on my claim, that it is highly biased for the ranged team because it is easier for them to rack up kills without risking death so much. That's why I don't want it in for marines, if it goes in as an costly upgrades for skulks. (Marines got already weapon recycling to preserve pres.)
<!--quoteo(post=1992598:date=Oct 17 2012, 02:20 AM:name=Zomb3h)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zomb3h @ Oct 17 2012, 02:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1992598"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->All this mumbo-jumbo about eggs and non-Onos teleportation makes me just want to stick with NS2:C.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah.
I'm happy too, that this mod exists. So you don't need to constantly demand NS2 to be NS1 with better graphics. Everybody gets what he wants. Win win. :)
<!--quoteo(post=1993136:date=Oct 18 2012, 08:16 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Oct 18 2012, 08:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1993136"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm happy too, that this mod exists. So you don't need to constantly demand NS2 to be NS1 with better graphics. Everybody gets what he wants. Win win. :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I really don't demand NS1. I'm trying to make clear that some things just worked for this kind of game. It's still a sequel, not another game. Usually in sequels things are improved. In NS2 many of the working things have just been cut. And the ones mentioned in this thread are important ones, especially Hive teleport. 1 unit killing upgrades in the base is not good in RTS games, a team not being able to protect its techpoints is not good in FPS domination-mode games.
<!--quoteo(post=1994776:date=Oct 22 2012, 09:19 AM:name=ogz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ogz @ Oct 22 2012, 09:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1994776"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Whatever happened to that nydus worm concept?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not a fan of the gorge PG style suggestions. I like the fact that hive teleport was limited to 3 strict locations. It makes a lot of sense to tether the alien movement abilities in that way. I'm honestly having trouble thinking of another way to implement such a feature without it being bull###### overpowered <i>and</i> make sense in-universe. Let's face it, we can't have aliens +use the hive any more.
Yes, aliens dont need "PGs". Teleporting to hive locations is enough ( a musthave!).
This nydus-idea could implemented into this game. Just let the khammander build those nydus only around hives (like Infantry-Portals around a commandstation)
I agree there should be hive teleportation again. I dont think its great for gameplay when marines have the movement advantage on the map, when aliens are the ones who need it for ambushes. Aliens should be the ones zipping around the map setting ambushes, not marines just sprinting quicker than skulks can respond.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
Hive teleport would be nice to have again, but I don't see it working at all in conjuction with wave spawn. Good luck taking down those hives with five skulks swarming you every 15 seconds...
<!--quoteo(post=1994903:date=Oct 22 2012, 07:05 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Oct 22 2012, 07:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1994903"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hive teleport would be nice to have again, but I don't see it working at all in conjuction with wave spawn. Good luck taking down those hives with five skulks swarming you every 15 seconds...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Link the hive teleport to a structure that can be destroyed? At least the aliens would have some chance at a quick defense.
Yea the current wave spawn would be brutal with hive teleportation... I still think that they should go back to the proven system, 10 seconds per marine per IP, and 7 seconds per alien per hive...
I do think that a small RFK versus no res when dead would go a long way towards making the game more dynamic, with less snowballing.
Comments
But cant a marine comm build with macs?
So this whole "player presence" argument should also result in macs no longer being able to build.
Hive teleportation is needed, marines can easily get around the map after about 3-4 min in thanks to phase tech.
Aliens cant even come close to moving those distances in anywhere near the time.
Couple that with the spurs, shells etc that 1 marine can easily take out (not to mention damage a couple can do to a hive) and you have 1 side who is meant to have a movement penalty being far superior at moving around the map before most pepole have stopped gloating in the RR and joined.
I recall one of the team saying "we will bring in hive teleportation when we see a need"....I guess not being able to defend your res investments on the alien side isn't considered a reason to bring it in.
I guess that not being able to maintain a movement advantage over your opposition after the 4 min mark is not a reason.
Oh well...
So this whole "player presence" argument should also result in macs no longer being able to build.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True enough, but you know what I mean. I suppose my definition of presence doesn't hold for that.
All I'm saying is, if I hold reactor core and crevice, and have phase gates in both with turrets all over the place, and marines permanently posted there and checking the vents, I don't want the entire alien team to suddenly come bounding out of the previously unoccupied atrium hive. Isn't that strategically counter intuitive? I think its already bad enough that you can simply build a hive anywhere you want whenever you want.
So its fair for marines to be the only ones that can?
All I'm saying is, if I hold reactor core and crevice, and have phase gates in both with turrets all over the place, and marines permanently posted there and checking the vents, I don't want the entire alien team to suddenly come bounding out of the previously unoccupied atrium hive. Isn't that strategically counter intuitive? I think its already bad enough that you can simply build a hive anywhere you want whenever you want.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well unless the hive is now built that would not happen as you could only teleport to unbuilt hives if marines attack it.
I am also assuming they code so friendly fire doesn't trigger hive under attack ala NS1 (but that was only clan games as FF is off on most pubs so for most people it never happened).
I disagree that aliens can build what ever when ever...that was the case for MARINES in NS1 but has never been the case for aliens. Who have always been limited to certain locations to be able to build (no ninja corridor hives).
How? I want to do it.
Tell your buddies to phase through and do it.
How do you get the phase gate there?
Phase gates already there in your little story. You seem to be fending two areas with two phase gates, from what i do not know assuming the hive is being built, why dont you tell your team to come kill the hive if your concerned about aliens killing you.
Just want to remember: <!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Look at the games you play and watch the streams. It's still necessary to have hive teleport. No faster celerity, no egg spawn; hive teleport it is.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
This ability would have less DPS than bite thus leaving a choice to the aliens to either destroy buildings at a slow pace but with a gain of res ( marines can defend them more easily) either go for "the kill"
Giving to gorge or another form would legitimate the hyper transmutation ( or whatever its name is ) encouraging players to use it / use the class to which it is assigned.
Regarding the hive teleport from what I've seen in the Guru tournament, some kind of fast traveling should be there for aliens.
Why not a vortex chamber that allows travels only between chambers ( like pg ) but only for lesser forms ( like i've seen it expressed here before ), onos and fade should travel the distance while skulk/gorge/lerk could use that.
That would cost Team res as it costs for marines and allow aliens to travel only from one point to another ( or to put back the movement chamber teleport to nearest hive only ).
<u>HiveTeleport:</u>
I agree that aliens need something to move faster over the map. But I don't want to have the NS1 incarnation of that for NS2. Because it further favors shift-hive first. You can't make it work for unbuilt hives (or you can instantly teleport forces to any free techpoint) and it would just look ###### when an onos pops out of thin air.
So if any, you would need to restrict it to skulks and maybe gorges. You would need at least some kind of "plopping out of the hive" animation to not make it look totally awkward. Eggs are not a solution, they are the first target for marines anyway.
A much better idea is the nydus-canal thing for the gorge. Its restrictions balances it very well. It does not only need a player who goes gorge and places the two from his personal res, you would also need infestation to place it. It would have very little health. The gorge had to build / heal it after placing it. It should only be use-able for skulks and not instant-travel. (maybe gorges too) It can even be needed to be researched by the kham if it is to powerful in the early game.
Being able to place it on walls; the tactical options it introduces to the game and the increased importance of the gorge make it much better than a boring hive-teleport.
I don't even think that such a cool mechanic should be neglected because of asymmetry only for the sake of asymmetry. I mean, it isn't even exactly the same like a phasegate.
Sadly this will have to wait after 1.0 but I'm looking forward to have this feature. It would be sooo cool.
<u>Res For Kills:</u>
This has been discussed to death several times. The outcome was every-time, that there are simply more negative aspects than positive.
<b>Positive</b><ul><li>Weakens the undesired tech explosion (=Every player gets higher tier tech at the same time.)</li><li>Creates an additional reward for the player who achieved the last hit on an enemy (Is only really positive if the scoring system is changed, so the player who did the most damage gets the kill.)</li></ul>
<b>Negative</b><ul><li>Further increases the distance between good and bad players. -> Snowballing (Extreme-example: a good player can rack up enough kills to go fade early and with the fade he is so powerful that this good player will never have to play skulk again in this round, because he always gets enough kills to buy a new fade.)</li><li>In a ranged-VS-melee game the ranged team has the option to defend / turtle and rack up kills without dieing. The melee team is always forced to get up close and risk death and therefor feeding the enemy team. (With a team where the default-alien is a suicide-runner, RFK is very biased to favor the other team.)</li><li>It has the potential to create more hate towards bad players, because they hurt the team with dieing / feeding. (Has happened in NS1!)</li><li>It increases the viability of turtle-strategies. Even if it is p-res-for-kill in NS2 instead of how it was in NS1, this will lead to more marine-base-turtles.</li></ul>No claim that this lists are complete.
So: No, RFK would hurt the game more than it does for it. And for what? It isn't simply worth it. The only kind of this incarnation I can see work, would be a researchable upgrade for the skulk (and only for them!). That allows skulks to "eat" dead marines to get 1pres.
<u>HiveTeleport:</u>
Because it further favors shift-hive first. You can't make it work for unbuilt hives (or you can instantly teleport forces to any free techpoint) and it would just look ###### when an onos pops out of thin air.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It doesn't favor shift hive, when you don't need a shift to teleport between hives. In NS1 MCs would be dropped first to get Cele. Just like in NS2 I guess.
The problem of the visuals could be solved like they are already for the fade.
To RFK: it doesn't have to be RFK. I'm talking about a dynamic way to gain rewards, which would be res, collected by actions.
Are you saying, Necro, that the game is dynamic and balanced enough to play it like that the next months, when an easy fix could make it better?
You could only teleport to built Hives, hives that were under attack (taking damage), or if a player +use on the unbuilt Hive. So it either required the enemy attacking it or player presense, or a fully built Hive to do offensive Hive Drops. And remember unbuilt Hive = low life Hive, so often it could be killed promptly if not properly supported. One of the best ways to punish Aliens was wait for a Gorge to drop the Hive, kill it, then get everyone together to quickly shoot down the Hive while Aliens scramble across the map since they can't Hive Teleport tot he unbuilt Hive.
This was an innate ability in NSv3.2, and did not require any chambers to work.
This has been discussed to death several times. The outcome was every-time, that there are simply more negative aspects than positive.
<b>Positive</b><ul><li>Weakens the undesired tech explosion (=Every player gets higher tier tech at the same time.)</li><li>Creates an additional reward for the player who achieved the last hit on an enemy (Is only really positive if the scoring system is changed, so the player who did the most damage gets the kill.)</li></ul>
<b>Negative</b><ul><li>Further increases the distance between good and bad players. -> Snowballing (Extreme-example: a good player can rack up enough kills to go fade early and with the fade he is so powerful that this good player will never have to play skulk again in this round, because he always gets enough kills to buy a new fade.)</li><li>In a ranged-VS-melee game the ranged team has the option to defend / turtle and rack up kills without dieing. The melee team is always forced to get up close and risk death and therefor feeding the enemy team. (With a team where the default-alien is a suicide-runner, RFK is very biased to favor the other team.)</li><li>It has the potential to create more hate towards bad players, because they hurt the team with dieing / feeding. (Has happened in NS1!)</li><li>It increases the viability of turtle-strategies. Even if it is p-res-for-kill in NS2 instead of how it was in NS1, this will lead to more marine-base-turtles.</li></ul>No claim that this lists are complete.
So: No, RFK would hurt the game more than it does for it. And for what? It isn't simply worth it. The only kind of this incarnation I can see work, would be a researchable upgrade for the skulk (and only for them!). That allows skulks to "eat" dead marines to get 1pres.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't agree on all points.
I agree biggest threat is the snowball effect of good players. We used to live in Fear of one player who would get a lot of kills then kill everyone as a Fade.
But I see some of those negatives as a feature. The ability to turtle up for Marines and Aliens was a vital component. If you were foolish and didn't kill them off, they could get enough res from the kills to break out. Unlikely, but it offered the possibility. Similarly, Aliens could meatgrinder a position if the Marines were foolish to help turn around a game. Marines were much better at pressing through the Alien defences with Siege and GLs and HMGs, which fit thematically and is the perfet example of how Marines acted as faster-than-linear growth beasts against the mobility of individual Aliens. That being said, I've had games where the Aliens were down RTs and came back via RFK. It opens up the viability of strategies.
So yes, it's a flawed system. Feeding is a problem. The Snowball of skilled players is a problem (Especially on Aliens getting powerful lifeforms). But it is better than no RFK imo. Especially if we cap it at only 1 RFK instead of the random 1-3 of NS2, and we will have to tweak the res model toa ccount for the new income flow for individual players.
We can discuss new ways to refactor it for NS2 to help keep the lid on the snowballing. If we make it researchable, I'd hope it's researchable for both sides. It shouldn't take an upgrade slot though. Giving it only to Skulk and perhaps Gorge would be interesting. Or adding it to Hypermutation would make an even stranger dynamic. I'm all ears for new concepts.
Just give the Gorge a Nydus-like structure, and make him more like the TF2 engi.
This way you can hide them behind a corner near the hive.
Unusable by an Onos, of course.
Assuming a successful release occurs, if people are playing NS2:C in playable numbers, it'd probably be safer to just join those games if the current NS2 gameplay isn't adjusted accordingly to give the Kharaa a chance to have some sort of contingency plan <i>like</i> (OOPS I SAID LIKE, MEANS ITS SYMMETRICAL OH NOOO!) the Marines.
No. I have only stated, that I think RFK has more downsides than upsides and that I think there could be a much better solution than hive-teleport.
<!--quoteo(post=1992514:date=Oct 17 2012, 12:45 AM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spellman23 @ Oct 17 2012, 12:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1992514"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But I see some of those negatives as a feature. The ability to turtle up for Marines and Aliens was a vital component.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Than I think it is a question of personal opinion. Because I literally hate games where the marines turtle for an endless time. This "fight to the last blood drop" was fun a few times. But it wore off very fast and now its only boring for me. Also you haven't answered on my claim, that it is highly biased for the ranged team because it is easier for them to rack up kills without risking death so much. That's why I don't want it in for marines, if it goes in as an costly upgrades for skulks. (Marines got already weapon recycling to preserve pres.)
Yeah.
I really don't demand NS1. I'm trying to make clear that some things just worked for this kind of game. It's still a sequel, not another game. Usually in sequels things are improved. In NS2 many of the working things have just been cut. And the ones mentioned in this thread are important ones, especially Hive teleport. 1 unit killing upgrades in the base is not good in RTS games, a team not being able to protect its techpoints is not good in FPS domination-mode games.
I'm not a fan of the gorge PG style suggestions. I like the fact that hive teleport was limited to 3 strict locations. It makes a lot of sense to tether the alien movement abilities in that way. I'm honestly having trouble thinking of another way to implement such a feature without it being bull###### overpowered <i>and</i> make sense in-universe. Let's face it, we can't have aliens +use the hive any more.
This nydus-idea could implemented into this game. Just let the khammander build those nydus only around hives (like Infantry-Portals around a commandstation)
Link the hive teleport to a structure that can be destroyed? At least the aliens would have some chance at a quick defense.
I do think that a small RFK versus no res when dead would go a long way towards making the game more dynamic, with less snowballing.