IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=2033639:date=Nov 24 2012, 10:12 AM:name=Azathoth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Azathoth @ Nov 24 2012, 10:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2033639"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't mind them so much, but umbra and spore from the lerks really need to be made semi-transparent, I can't stand it when I can't even see two feet in front of me.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Nooo...Not spores. Do what you want those that nutrient mist and umbra shown, even stomp and whatever else... dont care. But leave spores alone dammit.
You destroy one of the main purposes behind spores and therefore one of the roles of the lerk if you do that. i.e. I dont need to see a smoke stack everytime a marine uses his jetpack.. but when a lerk is able to crop dust over my head and live he deserves that achievement of causing a bit of chaos and obstruction so that i cant just knock him out of the sky while he does so. Not to mention all i have to do is take 2 steps in any direction and wala.. spores cant hurt me. OR like the video showed, flamethrowers. I'd trade any damage from spores for more obscuration, any day. (but then youd have to make it T1) They protect your escape, they distract and cause a force multiplier for skulks on the ground, and they even allow you to safely engage with your own attacks.
tldr: Spores have a huge tactical purpose behind their obscuration and should be the only screen obscuring effect for this reason. (and come on.. even watching that video they dont look to be the biggest issue either. Umbra OTOH)
<!--quoteo(post=2033667:date=Nov 24 2012, 09:04 PM:name=Gliss)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gliss @ Nov 24 2012, 09:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2033667"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->recoil is overcome by skill, spread patterns are overcome by skill. vision-obscuring is countered mostly by luck
skill is rewarding, luck is frustrating<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is basically the epitome of the COD mentality that I dislike so much in gaming. Complete and utter focus on the here and now, and the tangible concept of "skill". The kind of person that would jump off a cliff, and then complain that he can't fly. Then maybe you should think twice before taking the leap?
Your actions and your lack of skill get you into the situation that allows your vision to be obscured. Your inability to think ahead place you in a position where you may lose control of what you can and can't do. While you're busy using all your tangible skill to shoot a skulk travelling at 100 mph up a wall while doing a 360 no scope, I just shot him the second he came out of his egg. You tell me who is better at the game of natural selection. You tell me where the true skill lies.
Long story short, its your own mistakes that allow you to have your vision obscured. No alien life form can simply point to a marine and shout VISION OBSCURO (mind you I bet a handful of people complaining in this thread have shown support for ranged spores, which would likely do just that). Your mistakes, your consequences, and now your whining.
THAT'S THE ENTIRE POINT OF THOSE EFFECTS. I hate these threads; they seem to be made by people who attack something they don't seem to understand, or are very strangely against.
How do these sorts of attacks not make sense? This is part of the sci-fi portion of the game; aliens having superior physical traits, it makes sense. It genuinely scares me how people here would also totally be in favor of every room being perfectly lit.
<!--quoteo(post=2033721:date=Nov 24 2012, 10:52 PM:name=Fappuchino)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Fappuchino @ Nov 24 2012, 10:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2033721"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->THAT'S THE ENTIRE POINT OF THOSE EFFECTS. I hate these threads; they seem to be made by people who attack something they don't seem to understand, or are very strangely against.
How do these sorts of attacks not make sense? This is part of the sci-fi portion of the game; aliens having superior physical traits, it makes sense. It genuinely scares me how people here would also totally be in favor of every room being perfectly lit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Remove all textures please and make skulks/marines bright pink. Otherwise I cannot see them, and seeing things has nothing to do with skill. The only skill that exists is me moving my mouse around.
If you want true immersion UWE needs to hire fitness instructors in every city where they tests players and put those stats in game. I know i can run 1.5 miles in 11 minutes and im mildly in shape. So that would mean my char in game would be given a better than average sprint bar. I actually have fired a gun (pistol and rifle). I hold the Marksmen Ribbon in the Air Force (for those military out there i know it isnt a big deal lol) so my char should have better aim where as Joe over there who can even hold his weapon up for more than a minute without it dipping, it should be reflected in game.
Bottom line is no one wants true immersion. You play a game to be someone else with far superior physical capabilities. We add the eye and hand coordination and Critical Thinking. The game supplies the rest. All in all this is a player vs player game. Why do people hate turrets, hydras, and whips? Because you are fighting AI who have a 100% accuracy rate. They are limited in range and rate of fire for a reason.
Immersion gets old after 20-40 hours, but a high skill ceilings keep people coming back. Games without a high skill ceiling add gimmicks such as levels, achievements, and unlockable items. There is a reason you see one of these type games every year and no one touches the predecessor again.
Nothing should impede your vision other than porps, walls, and intentional vision obscuring abilities (and as Imbalanx said these abilities have this in mind so their other properties have been toned down, such as damage, radius, or rate of fire/cost).
<!--quoteo(post=2033737:date=Nov 24 2012, 11:07 PM:name=RisingSun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RisingSun @ Nov 24 2012, 11:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2033737"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Immersion gets old after 20-40 hours, but a high skill ceilings keep people coming back. Games without a high skill ceiling add gimmicks such as levels, achievements, and unlockable items. There is a reason you see one of these type games every year and no one touches the predecessor again.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2033743:date=Nov 24 2012, 03:13 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Nov 24 2012, 03:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2033743"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What's the skill ceiling on minecraft?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This game is no minecraft.
Skill ceiling in minecraft is as high as ceiling can be, the redstone circuitry is turing complete, meaning you can build everything a conventional computer can do.
I'd like to have a bit more immersion in ns2, like not having text all over the screen ("cc in under attack!") and other blinding obs circles.
<!--quoteo(post=2033678:date=Nov 24 2012, 02:34 PM:name=pittlerGG)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (pittlerGG @ Nov 24 2012, 02:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2033678"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->OP really doesn't get it.
NS2 is for the most part a first person shooter/biter, and as such an important aspect is finding threats and targets in your environment, as well as trying to hinder your opponents ability to effectively do so. Some mechanics in the game makes this easier for you, some makes it more difficult for your enemy. Think alien vision and scan, or ink cloud, camouflage and silence. In a game which is inherently asymmetrical in the sense that one side is ranged and one side is melee, it makes perfect sense from a game design/balance perspective that the melee side has some spells or abilities which makes it easier for them to close in on their opponents, who would otherwise always maintain a tactical advantage simply due to the fact that they are ranged.
The complaints ITT are utterly misguided. OP, and the people who side with him make themselves look like they don't understand what kind of game NS2 is designed to be.
Edit to add: Shrimm beat me to my point :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This. They're working as intended. You're not SUPPOSED to easily see through smoke, spores and flames. It's SUPPOSED to make the game harder for gunslingers. It's not an accidental thing they added in just to make things look nicer.
<!--quoteo(post=2033718:date=Nov 24 2012, 12:50 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Nov 24 2012, 12:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2033718"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is basically the epitome of the COD mentality that I dislike so much in gaming. Complete and utter focus on the here and now, and the tangible concept of "skill". The kind of person that would jump off a cliff, and then complain that he can't fly. Then maybe you should think twice before taking the leap?
Your actions and your lack of skill get you into the situation that allows your vision to be obscured. Your inability to think ahead place you in a position where you may lose control of what you can and can't do. While you're busy using all your tangible skill to shoot a skulk travelling at 100 mph up a wall while doing a 360 no scope, I just shot him the second he came out of his egg. You tell me who is better at the game of natural selection. You tell me where the true skill lies.
Long story short, its your own mistakes that allow you to have your vision obscured. No alien life form can simply point to a marine and shout VISION OBSCURO (mind you I bet a handful of people complaining in this thread have shown support for ranged spores, which would likely do just that). Your mistakes, your consequences, and now your whining.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem" target="_blank">thank you for making assumptions about an entire community as well as attempting to sum up my playstyle in one sentence.</a> your post really only basically applies to Spores. when the effects in the game get oversaturated to the point of blind spamming due to FPS loss as opposed to calculated shots, then yes, it becomes luck-based.
a strong comparison is Dota 2's juking through fog-of-war. I've never heard anyone complain about this being a "vision reducing mechanic", because it involves solid gameplay basics and skill from both ends (anticipating jukes or lack thereof).
<!--quoteo(post=2033686:date=Nov 24 2012, 11:50 AM:name=Shrimm)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shrimm @ Nov 24 2012, 11:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2033686"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How, in any way, are spores/umbra luck based? I guess those lerks were accidently pressing there mouse buttons and got lucky because it did something...
Just so you know, shooting and tracking a target with low visibility requires skill not luck. Sure you can spray bullets into the mist and hope for the best.. If you're doing that I could see were you're coming from. From that perspective the entire game is luck based. You can dump your magazine down a hallway, get lucky and hit a couple aliens. Or you could look, analyze, and figure out where to shoot all in the fraction of a second and actually kill a couple aliens. That's skill not luck.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm not disagreeing with either of you. note my CS example. I'm simply stating that the effects in NS2 are oversaturated (including non-intentional effects such as nutrient mist, observatory sensor, crag mist) and this problem is amplified by the undeniable performance issues. in the WasabiOne showmatch I was holding a solid 20 FPS in the hive room due to nutrient mist, crag mist, enzyme, etc. it's simply unplayable.
<!--quoteo(post=2033749:date=Nov 24 2012, 11:17 PM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Nov 24 2012, 11:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2033749"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This game is no minecraft.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Its a computer game aint it? If universal laws are going to be put forth, best make sure they are universal, else don't put them forth.
<!--quoteo(post=2033781:date=Nov 24 2012, 04:02 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Nov 24 2012, 04:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2033781"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Its a computer game aint it? If universal laws are going to be put forth, best make sure they are universal, else don't put them forth.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> And the whoosh of hay and grass as the strawman's head is removed is almost deafening. Another faceless victim of our cruel society's barbaric techniques. Do not mourn him, for to do so is to spend a lifetime in tears.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=2033743:date=Nov 24 2012, 01:13 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Nov 24 2012, 01:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2033743"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What's the skill ceiling on minecraft?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> People get bored quick with vanilla Minecraft. Then they move on to either videos (see youtube) or Minecraft mods.
<!--quoteo(post=2033778:date=Nov 25 2012, 12:00 AM:name=Gliss)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gliss @ Nov 25 2012, 12:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2033778"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->a strong comparison is Dota 2's juking through fog-of-war. I've never heard anyone complain about this being a "vision reducing mechanic", because it involves solid gameplay basics and skill from both ends (anticipating jukes or lack thereof).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You've never heard anyone complain about it? Really? You obviously have never looked to hard. Every game has its whining ######. Dota is no different, and they complain about that like hell.
Just wanted to say that Vision being obscured is on purpose, and there is a gun specifically designed to counter all those vision obscuring effects. It's called a Flamethrower. (And yes, it comes with it's own vision obscure but with the bonus of essentially highlighting alien players and structures in a dark room.)
You are also able to get rid of all those effects, and have perfect 20/20 vision, by disabling many of the visual aspects of the game. Some do it for performance issues, some do it because they never want a skulk to hide behind infestation.
The fact the vision obscure is something that can be removed at will with a gun, and that it can mostly be deactivated by the game options as is, makes this a non-issue in my mind.
At worst, it's silly to have the Aliens team rely on graphics effects to remain competitive that can be turned off by the Marines player.
<!--quoteo(post=2033813:date=Nov 24 2012, 03:49 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Nov 24 2012, 03:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2033813"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just wanted to say that Vision being obscured is on purpose, and there is a gun specifically designed to counter all those vision obscuring effects. It's called a Flamethrower. (And yes, it comes with it's own vision obscure but with the bonus of essentially highlighting alien players and structures in a dark room.)
You are also able to get rid of all those effects, and have perfect 20/20 vision, by disabling many of the visual aspects of the game. Some do it for performance issues, some do it because they never want a skulk to hide behind infestation.
The fact the vision obscure is something that can be removed at will with a gun, and that it can mostly be deactivated by the game options as is, makes this a non-issue in my mind.
At worst, it's silly to have the Aliens team rely on graphics effects to remain competitive that can be turned off by the Marines player.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is an issue I think, and one that is unfortunately product of severe performance issues. The way shadows are completely turned off is more akin of a single player game than a competitive one. It's quite silly really, of course players are going to disregard what they consider "fluff", even though it damages the game visually quite a bit. The same goes for infestation, which I think should be unchangeable.
Shadows should've also had a less visually jarring change; maybe add darkness in nooks and crannies.
I'd like to make a distinction between a single early/mid-game lerk using one these abilities at a time to cover his team-mates, and the end-game particle spam that occurs when several members of a team and the commander are all actively using particle-based abilities..
When a single lerk uses spore or umbra the other end of a hallway to give himself some cover, you see one big cloud of a fairly uniform colour, at a reasonable distance away from you. It is well signalled, easily understood, and the marine is left with some choice: If I enter the cloud, I'll go blind. If I stay where I am or retreat, the lerk will definitely survive.
Things start to break down a little as the game progresses however: <ol type='1'><li><b>When the lerk flies over the marine and "crop-dusts"</b> The spore particles do not act like real-world clouds, fog or smoke: In the real-world, they can often look completely opaque from the outside, but from inside the cloud you still get some limited visibility that rapidly drops off. From a gameplay perspective, having a particle designed to be viewed at a medium range popping up point-blank in your face can be disorienting and can result in total blindness for half a second or more.
My suggestion would be to have each client modify the opacity of all particles based on their proximity to the camera: From 0 to 0.1 metres, the effect is 10% opaque. At 1m the effect is back to the normal opacity we're used to now. Everything in between is on an opacity gradient.
</li><li><b>When multiple alien players are creating several different particle effects at the same time</b> This one is a little trickier to resolve. When spores, umbra, ink-clouds and nutrient mist are all being used at the same time, the typical marine is presented with patches of dark green, bright orange, pitch-black with a purple edge and crimson-red all at once. Each of these effects, which look great in isolation, create a large amount of visual noise when used together. Marines are exposed to so many wildly different colours at once that the signalling breaks down, and their senses simply become overwhelmed by the display.
You could argue that this is an intended effect, but I would suggest that overloading the sensory systems of your players in order to intentionally stop them from understanding what they are looking at might be better suited to the work of research laboratory than a commercial video game. I think the only solution here is to reduce the total number of abilities that can generate large particle clouds. Leave 2 or 3 abilities alone, for example spores and ink clouds, and modify the rest so that they are far more subdued.</li></ol>
<!--quoteo(post=2033599:date=Nov 24 2012, 01:05 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Nov 24 2012, 01:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2033599"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think this is a good example of how frustrating all the particle effects can be. It's so bad even without the other 70% - Infestation spikes, Cyst bursts, Drifter enzyme spam, Scan circles, jp smoke, whip bombard, gorge spit. Hopefully UWE has a look at the purpose of each visually obstructing mechanic and has a think about whether it fits their purpose, because quite honestly it's over the top. Still can't believe the burning away spore/umbra effect is just as bad as what it was trying to eliminate.
If you have a problem with the ammount of vision obstruction in Natural immersion 2, please add your footage here and hopefully we can start something.
<center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/oAj2_EgfgfE"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/oAj2_EgfgfE" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center> *yea i know the audio bitrate sucks. sorry<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why post a video showing particle effects, yet showing how you still manage to kill stuff amongst all the mess :p
it's not really easy to have obstruction be part of gameplay
it depends on too many user settings and at the end of the day it's really just about playing the game for thousands of hours until you can recognize subtle differences in colors... it has nothing to do with actually being good at making the right decisions in the actual game
camo being full invisibility is a step in the right direction... but things like skulks blending into the walls is kind of annoying. it's like the game wants people to calibrate their setup so they can get an advantage in the game, but not through any real UI settings like quake-style forcemodel but through things like contrast and lighting.
He likes to complain it's not NS1 I guess? It's the monthly "immersiveness" troll thread.
Yes, we all play the game, yes we all see this every time.
And all I see here is a marine team, already lost the game, losing its last position.
As far as the visuals of the game, they're awesome, they work, and they have their place, especially sieging in the late game. The game would suffer, creatively, immersively, and tactically, if they're removed.
Performance issues are an entirely different discussion which has little to no place on the "creative" side of the game.
P.S. I'm glad they re-added the gorge-spit-on-HUD effect. It's awesome and makes gorge spit actually worthwhile in a fight.
<!--quoteo(post=2033844:date=Nov 24 2012, 06:11 PM:name=Fappuchino)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Fappuchino @ Nov 24 2012, 06:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2033844"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is an issue I think, and one that is unfortunately product of severe performance issues. The way shadows are completely turned off is more akin of a single player game than a competitive one. It's quite silly really, of course players are going to disregard what they consider "fluff", even though it damages the game visually quite a bit. The same goes for infestation, which I think should be unchangeable.
Shadows should've also had a less visually jarring change; maybe add darkness in nooks and crannies.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
At the end of the day I still think it's a non-issue even at the worst of times. If you take out the power node, there is no brightness/gamma setting that's going to help you see in pitch-black rooms. At least not enough for you to do anything against the several aliens that are undoubtedly in the room with you.
In the ARC vs exertus game, even Charlie noted that the first thing players did was to put most things on off/low, and bump the gamma. He said something to the effect of "if they want to play like this, it's fine."
I disagree, but what can I do... :-)
It might be an interesting idea to have some kind of server filter that enforces certain settings or above, but that would probably be useless because server ops would rather have their server populated with people who play on low with max gamma than have an unpopular server :-) .
I guess you have to cater to the masses in online gaming; and that's where it's had its downfall in the last 10 years. There are few studios or individuals (mostly indie) who have the balls to make unpopular games instead of the next clone.
But anyway, off topic. Effects are fine, and if there are any efforts made, they should be directed at making them consistent in the ways they affect gameplay at different graphical settings than tweaking them in any way.
<!--quoteo(post=2033718:date=Nov 24 2012, 09:50 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Nov 24 2012, 09:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2033718"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is basically the epitome of the COD mentality that I dislike so much in gaming.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> COD doesn't have recoil nor spread pattern. :3
Anyway, I'm not against vision obscuring. Heck, if any of you guys play Counter-Strike and enjoy that game, then you have heck of a lot more vision obscuring in that game compared to NS2. Ever been bombarded with 5 smoke grenades and 10 flash bangs? Good grief, ten times worse, yet actually a fun aspect of the game.
Edit: Here you have one of the old strategy of mine<b>*</b>. It's even more improved now than in the video. <center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/aD6VgruQSk8&hd=1"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/aD6VgruQSk8&hd=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center> Where, if you don't know what to do then you are completely screwed, and feel as if you're trying to fight the impossible. However, everything got its counter. Flamethrower is one of them.
<b>*</b> Just recently made a video out of it, to explain it to the players I play gathers with.
Comments
Nooo...Not spores.
Do what you want those that nutrient mist and umbra shown, even stomp and whatever else... dont care.
But leave spores alone dammit.
You destroy one of the main purposes behind spores and therefore one of the roles of the lerk if you do that.
i.e. I dont need to see a smoke stack everytime a marine uses his jetpack.. but when a lerk is able to crop dust over my head and live he deserves that achievement of causing a bit of chaos and obstruction so that i cant just knock him out of the sky while he does so. Not to mention all i have to do is take 2 steps in any direction and wala.. spores cant hurt me. OR like the video showed, flamethrowers. I'd trade any damage from spores for more obscuration, any day. (but then youd have to make it T1)
They protect your escape, they distract and cause a force multiplier for skulks on the ground, and they even allow you to safely engage with your own attacks.
tldr: Spores have a huge tactical purpose behind their obscuration and should be the only screen obscuring effect for this reason. (and come on.. even watching that video they dont look to be the biggest issue either. Umbra OTOH)
skill is rewarding, luck is frustrating<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is basically the epitome of the COD mentality that I dislike so much in gaming. Complete and utter focus on the here and now, and the tangible concept of "skill". The kind of person that would jump off a cliff, and then complain that he can't fly. Then maybe you should think twice before taking the leap?
Your actions and your lack of skill get you into the situation that allows your vision to be obscured. Your inability to think ahead place you in a position where you may lose control of what you can and can't do. While you're busy using all your tangible skill to shoot a skulk travelling at 100 mph up a wall while doing a 360 no scope, I just shot him the second he came out of his egg. You tell me who is better at the game of natural selection. You tell me where the true skill lies.
Long story short, its your own mistakes that allow you to have your vision obscured.
No alien life form can simply point to a marine and shout VISION OBSCURO (mind you I bet a handful of people complaining in this thread have shown support for ranged spores, which would likely do just that). Your mistakes, your consequences, and now your whining.
How do these sorts of attacks not make sense? This is part of the sci-fi portion of the game; aliens having superior physical traits, it makes sense. It genuinely scares me how people here would also totally be in favor of every room being perfectly lit.
How do these sorts of attacks not make sense? This is part of the sci-fi portion of the game; aliens having superior physical traits, it makes sense. It genuinely scares me how people here would also totally be in favor of every room being perfectly lit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Remove all textures please and make skulks/marines bright pink. Otherwise I cannot see them, and seeing things has nothing to do with skill. The only skill that exists is me moving my mouse around.
Bottom line is no one wants true immersion. You play a game to be someone else with far superior physical capabilities. We add the eye and hand coordination and Critical Thinking. The game supplies the rest. All in all this is a player vs player game. Why do people hate turrets, hydras, and whips? Because you are fighting AI who have a 100% accuracy rate. They are limited in range and rate of fire for a reason.
Immersion gets old after 20-40 hours, but a high skill ceilings keep people coming back. Games without a high skill ceiling add gimmicks such as levels, achievements, and unlockable items. There is a reason you see one of these type games every year and no one touches the predecessor again.
Nothing should impede your vision other than porps, walls, and intentional vision obscuring abilities (and as Imbalanx said these abilities have this in mind so their other properties have been toned down, such as damage, radius, or rate of fire/cost).
What's the skill ceiling on minecraft?
This game is no minecraft.
Haha, clever, but no. The draw in that game isnt immersion. It is the freedom to do whatever you want. NS2 is not a Sandbox game =)
I'd like to have a bit more immersion in ns2, like not having text all over the screen ("cc in under attack!") and other blinding obs circles.
NS2 is for the most part a first person shooter/biter, and as such an important aspect is finding threats and targets in your environment, as well as trying to hinder your opponents ability to effectively do so. Some mechanics in the game makes this easier for you, some makes it more difficult for your enemy. Think alien vision and scan, or ink cloud, camouflage and silence. In a game which is inherently asymmetrical in the sense that one side is ranged and one side is melee, it makes perfect sense from a game design/balance perspective that the melee side has some spells or abilities which makes it easier for them to close in on their opponents, who would otherwise always maintain a tactical advantage simply due to the fact that they are ranged.
The complaints ITT are utterly misguided. OP, and the people who side with him make themselves look like they don't understand what kind of game NS2 is designed to be.
Edit to add: Shrimm beat me to my point :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This. They're working as intended. You're not SUPPOSED to easily see through smoke, spores and flames. It's SUPPOSED to make the game harder for gunslingers. It's not an accidental thing they added in just to make things look nicer.
Your actions and your lack of skill get you into the situation that allows your vision to be obscured. Your inability to think ahead place you in a position where you may lose control of what you can and can't do. While you're busy using all your tangible skill to shoot a skulk travelling at 100 mph up a wall while doing a 360 no scope, I just shot him the second he came out of his egg. You tell me who is better at the game of natural selection. You tell me where the true skill lies.
Long story short, its your own mistakes that allow you to have your vision obscured.
No alien life form can simply point to a marine and shout VISION OBSCURO (mind you I bet a handful of people complaining in this thread have shown support for ranged spores, which would likely do just that). Your mistakes, your consequences, and now your whining.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem" target="_blank">thank you for making assumptions about an entire community as well as attempting to sum up my playstyle in one sentence.</a> your post really only basically applies to Spores. when the effects in the game get oversaturated to the point of blind spamming due to FPS loss as opposed to calculated shots, then yes, it becomes luck-based.
a strong comparison is Dota 2's juking through fog-of-war. I've never heard anyone complain about this being a "vision reducing mechanic", because it involves solid gameplay basics and skill from both ends (anticipating jukes or lack thereof).
<!--quoteo(post=2033686:date=Nov 24 2012, 11:50 AM:name=Shrimm)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shrimm @ Nov 24 2012, 11:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2033686"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How, in any way, are spores/umbra luck based? I guess those lerks were accidently pressing there mouse buttons and got lucky because it did something...
Just so you know, shooting and tracking a target with low visibility requires skill not luck. Sure you can spray bullets into the mist and hope for the best.. If you're doing that I could see were you're coming from. From that perspective the entire game is luck based. You can dump your magazine down a hallway, get lucky and hit a couple aliens. Or you could look, analyze, and figure out where to shoot all in the fraction of a second and actually kill a couple aliens. That's skill not luck.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not disagreeing with either of you. note my CS example. I'm simply stating that the effects in NS2 are oversaturated (including non-intentional effects such as nutrient mist, observatory sensor, crag mist) and this problem is amplified by the undeniable performance issues. in the WasabiOne showmatch I was holding a solid 20 FPS in the hive room due to nutrient mist, crag mist, enzyme, etc. it's simply unplayable.
Its a computer game aint it? If universal laws are going to be put forth, best make sure they are universal, else don't put them forth.
And the whoosh of hay and grass as the strawman's head is removed is almost deafening. Another faceless victim of our cruel society's barbaric techniques. Do not mourn him, for to do so is to spend a lifetime in tears.
People get bored quick with vanilla Minecraft. Then they move on to either videos (see youtube) or Minecraft mods.
You've never heard anyone complain about it? Really? You obviously have never looked to hard. Every game has its whining ######. Dota is no different, and they complain about that like hell.
You are also able to get rid of all those effects, and have perfect 20/20 vision, by disabling many of the visual aspects of the game. Some do it for performance issues, some do it because they never want a skulk to hide behind infestation.
The fact the vision obscure is something that can be removed at will with a gun, and that it can mostly be deactivated by the game options as is, makes this a non-issue in my mind.
At worst, it's silly to have the Aliens team rely on graphics effects to remain competitive that can be turned off by the Marines player.
You are also able to get rid of all those effects, and have perfect 20/20 vision, by disabling many of the visual aspects of the game. Some do it for performance issues, some do it because they never want a skulk to hide behind infestation.
The fact the vision obscure is something that can be removed at will with a gun, and that it can mostly be deactivated by the game options as is, makes this a non-issue in my mind.
At worst, it's silly to have the Aliens team rely on graphics effects to remain competitive that can be turned off by the Marines player.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is an issue I think, and one that is unfortunately product of severe performance issues. The way shadows are completely turned off is more akin of a single player game than a competitive one. It's quite silly really, of course players are going to disregard what they consider "fluff", even though it damages the game visually quite a bit. The same goes for infestation, which I think should be unchangeable.
Shadows should've also had a less visually jarring change; maybe add darkness in nooks and crannies.
When a single lerk uses spore or umbra the other end of a hallway to give himself some cover, you see one big cloud of a fairly uniform colour, at a reasonable distance away from you. It is well signalled, easily understood, and the marine is left with some choice: If I enter the cloud, I'll go blind. If I stay where I am or retreat, the lerk will definitely survive.
Things start to break down a little as the game progresses however:
<ol type='1'><li><b>When the lerk flies over the marine and "crop-dusts"</b>
The spore particles do not act like real-world clouds, fog or smoke: In the real-world, they can often look completely opaque from the outside, but from inside the cloud you still get some limited visibility that rapidly drops off. From a gameplay perspective, having a particle designed to be viewed at a medium range popping up point-blank in your face can be disorienting and can result in total blindness for half a second or more.
My suggestion would be to have each client modify the opacity of all particles based on their proximity to the camera: From 0 to 0.1 metres, the effect is 10% opaque. At 1m the effect is back to the normal opacity we're used to now. Everything in between is on an opacity gradient.
</li><li><b>When multiple alien players are creating several different particle effects at the same time</b>
This one is a little trickier to resolve. When spores, umbra, ink-clouds and nutrient mist are all being used at the same time, the typical marine is presented with patches of dark green, bright orange, pitch-black with a purple edge and crimson-red all at once. Each of these effects, which look great in isolation, create a large amount of visual noise when used together. Marines are exposed to so many wildly different colours at once that the signalling breaks down, and their senses simply become overwhelmed by the display.
You could argue that this is an intended effect, but I would suggest that overloading the sensory systems of your players in order to intentionally stop them from understanding what they are looking at might be better suited to the work of research laboratory than a commercial video game. I think the only solution here is to reduce the total number of abilities that can generate large particle clouds. Leave 2 or 3 abilities alone, for example spores and ink clouds, and modify the rest so that they are far more subdued.</li></ol>
If you have a problem with the ammount of vision obstruction in Natural immersion 2, please add your footage here and hopefully we can start something.
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*yea i know the audio bitrate sucks. sorry<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why post a video showing particle effects, yet showing how you still manage to kill stuff amongst all the mess :p
I can Run 1080p BF3 with 35% high & the rest ultra high settings with a better framerate. :P
But I will continue supporting this game for a LONG time. Next to TF2, I don't know what has more appeal...
it depends on too many user settings and at the end of the day it's really just about playing the game for thousands of hours until you can recognize subtle differences in colors... it has nothing to do with actually being good at making the right decisions in the actual game
camo being full invisibility is a step in the right direction... but things like skulks blending into the walls is kind of annoying. it's like the game wants people to calibrate their setup so they can get an advantage in the game, but not through any real UI settings like quake-style forcemodel but through things like contrast and lighting.
Yes, we all play the game, yes we all see this every time.
And all I see here is a marine team, already lost the game, losing its last position.
As far as the visuals of the game, they're awesome, they work, and they have their place, especially sieging in the late game. The game would suffer, creatively, immersively, and tactically, if they're removed.
Performance issues are an entirely different discussion which has little to no place on the "creative" side of the game.
P.S. I'm glad they re-added the gorge-spit-on-HUD effect. It's awesome and makes gorge spit actually worthwhile in a fight.
Shadows should've also had a less visually jarring change; maybe add darkness in nooks and crannies.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
At the end of the day I still think it's a non-issue even at the worst of times. If you take out the power node, there is no brightness/gamma setting that's going to help you see in pitch-black rooms. At least not enough for you to do anything against the several aliens that are undoubtedly in the room with you.
In the ARC vs exertus game, even Charlie noted that the first thing players did was to put most things on off/low, and bump the gamma. He said something to the effect of "if they want to play like this, it's fine."
I disagree, but what can I do... :-)
It might be an interesting idea to have some kind of server filter that enforces certain settings or above, but that would probably be useless because server ops would rather have their server populated with people who play on low with max gamma than have an unpopular server :-) .
I guess you have to cater to the masses in online gaming; and that's where it's had its downfall in the last 10 years. There are few studios or individuals (mostly indie) who have the balls to make unpopular games instead of the next clone.
But anyway, off topic. Effects are fine, and if there are any efforts made, they should be directed at making them consistent in the ways they affect gameplay at different graphical settings than tweaking them in any way.
COD doesn't have recoil nor spread pattern. :3
Anyway, I'm not against vision obscuring. Heck, if any of you guys play Counter-Strike and enjoy that game, then you have heck of a lot more vision obscuring in that game compared to NS2. Ever been bombarded with 5 smoke grenades and 10 flash bangs? Good grief, ten times worse, yet actually a fun aspect of the game.
Edit: Here you have one of the old strategy of mine<b>*</b>. It's even more improved now than in the video.
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Where, if you don't know what to do then you are completely screwed, and feel as if you're trying to fight the impossible. However, everything got its counter. Flamethrower is one of them.
<b>*</b> Just recently made a video out of it, to explain it to the players I play gathers with.
Ermergerd, it's in front of my face hitting me, shoot shoot!
Are you serious OP, and OP followers?
Don't forget about the RTS part of this game. It has deeper implications than your simple CoD garbage does.