<!--quoteo(post=2034857:date=Nov 26 2012, 04:07 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Nov 26 2012, 04:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034857"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm really disappointed that someone from /AUS/ clan would show not only such purposeful ignorance of the game, but such bad manner. A real shame.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've been in both of the two oldest clans in NS history, claiming i'm ignorant of the game only makes you look retarded. My bad manners on the other hand are clear to see and if you don't like them directed at you, quit making troll threads.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->and was quite rudely accused of skulk speed hacking a few days ago by pure phoenix (rofl).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> And reported for investigation to VAC for it, too. I'm not stupid, i have 14 years gaming experience AND i've played with the worlds' best in several games. I know a cheat when i see one and moving faster than a bunnyhopping NS1 celerity skulk at earlier than 1 minute into the game is arguably speed hacking.
Now i just sit back and wait for the permaban coming your way, since the chances of me actually being right on the accusation is astronomical.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I can totally understand why some of you like the current level of particle effects. This is i think because of the following two reasons 1) You havn't played enough hours to get over the initial immersion kick, fully understand what vision obstruction is actually doing to you, and fully understand how it affects the flow of the game if you "sit back and wait for it to go away". This is understandable and legit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or we simply learned to filter it out and deal with it. Tracking via mental imagery is more common than you think and is how many pros in CS could wallbang even after losing sight of their target.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2) You havn't yet experienced being purposely trolled with every single vision blocking mechanic at every step constantly throughout a game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Get the commander to sell IP's and start Last Man Standing. Easy fixed.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Some of you are basing your judgement based on (incomplete) personal experience hence why i originally tried to get community footage to paint a complete and honest picture we could discuss around.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A video will never be a "complete and honest picture" unless you show how you let the alien team get 6+ resource nodes and the 3 hives required for umbra spam.
Bet you thought nobody would catch on to the fact that umbra requires 3 hives and is being spammed in the opening posts' video, huh? Shame on you, even at trolling you fail.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->does this mean vision obstruction is not a very big deciding factor?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The deciding factor for your loss, like i stressed several posts ago, is allowing the enemy team to have all 3 hives.
If you can't be bothered playing properly and end up with a heavily stilted match, then you lose all credibility when you cry "OP!"
I think design simplicity and clarity principles are enough to fix the view blocking problems. Basically you want to have a clearly identified mechanic that blocks vision, that players can recognize has such and that does a good job at it, for example cs flashbang does that well.
In ns2 vision blocking is spread all over the place, on mechanics that have completely other functions (e.g. blocking bullets, giving you light). The results of this is a mess: a design mess and a visual mess. Design mess makes the game harder to learn (good example of that is how lights can be both on and off when you have no powernode built, this kind of inconsistencies makes the game much harder to learn).
So, the recipe is: pick one or two mechanics which primary goal is to block vision (cysts rupture is already doing this) and make sure it's doing its job correctly. Then remove vision blocking on the other mechanics.
Visual obstruction is a gameplay mechanic to that tests how players react to stress and imperfect information. Just because the FPS games of yore were not able to render such things doesn't mean that was how FPS games were meant to be.
<!--quoteo(post=2034970:date=Nov 26 2012, 08:52 PM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Nov 26 2012, 08:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034970"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think design simplicity and clarity principles are enough to fix the view blocking problems. Basically you want to have a clearly identified mechanic that blocks vision, that players can recognize has such and that does a good job at it, for example cs flashbang does that well.
In ns2 vision blocking is spread all over the place, on mechanics that have completely other functions (e.g. blocking bullets, giving you light). The results of this is a mess: a design mess and a visual mess. Design mess makes the game harder to learn (good example of that is how lights can be both on and off when you have no powernode built, this kind of inconsistencies makes the game much harder to learn).
So, the recipe is: pick one or two mechanics which primary goal is to block vision (cysts rupture is already doing this) and make sure it's doing its job correctly. Then remove vision blocking on the other mechanics.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This, time and time again, this.
This game has come a very long way in focusing design elements and aligning conflicting concepts, but we're not there yet. Some remaining elements are indeed still quite "messy". The current implementation of vision blocking is a perfect example of this.
Hell yes, let's give the aliens some vision blocking abilities. But let's do it <i>right</i>.
<!--quoteo(post=2034974:date=Nov 26 2012, 02:59 AM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Nov 26 2012, 02:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034974"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->@Sueco, you might want to read my argument just above. It's doesn't depend on whether you think visual obstruction is a good mechanic or not.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree completely. Special effects blocking vision are a part of gameplay just as much as walking into a wall stops you from clipping through it. People need to stop dreaming about "cleaning up the screen" for their comfort. If effects disorient you it means you are playing bad and that's that.
<!--quoteo(post=2034994:date=Nov 26 2012, 09:51 PM:name=Sueco)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sueco @ Nov 26 2012, 09:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034994"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I disagree completely. Special effects blocking vision are a part of gameplay just as much as walking into a wall stops you from clipping through it. People need to stop dreaming about "cleaning up the screen" for their comfort. If effects disorient you it means you are playing bad and that's that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think you've misunderstood what Yuuki is trying to say. He is not asking for less overall vision blocking, he's asking for vision blocking to be consolidated into a small number of abilities that do it really really well.
For example, imagine if nutrient mist and umbra did not block vision at all, but spores covered a much larger area and was even thicker and harder to see through... Or perhaps the lerk fired spores in a similar pattern to a very short-range flamethrower, casting a thicking obscuring cloud slightly in-front of it as it flew... Or maybe if the spore clouds inherited the lerk's momentum so that the lerk could use speed and skill to project spores onto marines without directly engaging...
Let's have some <i>awesome</i> skill-based vision blockers that are really good at what they do, and then let's tone down the others so that we end up with roughly the same amount of total vision blocking.
<!--quoteo(post=2035000:date=Nov 26 2012, 07:07 AM:name=Rokiyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rokiyo @ Nov 26 2012, 07:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035000"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For example, imagine if <b>nutrient mist </b>and umbra did not block vision at all<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Umm... Stop standing half a meter off the ground? If you have trouble with nutrient mist blocking vision you might want to consider playing a simpler game like pong.. It isn't even tall enough to hide skulks in it lol.
<!--quoteo(post=2035000:date=Nov 26 2012, 04:07 AM:name=Rokiyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rokiyo @ Nov 26 2012, 04:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035000"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think you've misunderstood what Yuuki is trying to say. He is not asking for less overall vision blocking, he's asking for vision blocking to be consolidated into a small number of abilities that do it really really well.
For example, imagine if nutrient mist and umbra did not block vision at all, but spores covered a much larger area and was even thicker and harder to see through... Or perhaps the lerk fired spores in a similar pattern to a very short-range flamethrower, casting a thicking obscuring cloud slightly in-front of it as it flew... Or maybe if the spore clouds inherited the lerk's momentum so that the lerk could use speed and skill to project spores onto marines without directly engaging...
Let's have some <i>awesome</i> skill-based vision blockers that are really good at what they do, and then let's tone down the others so that we end up with roughly the same amount of total vision blocking.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Accidental or deliberated, environmental effects are a part of the game. They create hazard, opportunities and force gameplay choices. Little would be improved by removing effects from current abilities and the game's atmosphere would suffer. You want a smokescreen ability? That sounds cool. Doesn't mean it makes sense to reduce other atmospheric effects. If clutter bothers you, well, you are fighting a vicious biological agent in a closed environment. Find another game.
I agree you can't get ride completely of visual clutter; an umbra could needs to be visible. It is possible however to reduce visual clutter as much as possible, you just need to tweak down umbra alpha until it's hard to see, and then bump it up a bit. Other things like flashlights cloud and big obs circle can be removed/replaced completely without hurting atmosphere or gameplay.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If clutter bothers you, well, you are fighting a vicious biological agent in a closed environment. Find another game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's not a valid argument. You're saying: "You don't like X. Then play another game." You're not saying anything about X being good or desirable, which is the subject of the debate. You're loosing your time typing such things, so for your finger sakes (arthritis is bad you know?) try to include some information about the subject when you type.
He's got a point, though. These effects were clearly intentional. The kharaa are bacteria-based life forms. Any time they are actively working, there will be a small amount of bacteria mist resulting from the fact that bacteria isn't perfect.
If it's time for an onos, the hive is going to send orders into the sub-animal intelligence of the bacteria mist. Even if only 1 billion are required, it's not going to send 1 billion particles to create an onos. ALL nearby particles are going to think they need to build an onos and if there's too many, well guess what? You now have potentially 1.2 billion particles trying to fit into the same onos form, 1 b successfull and 200 million spare particles following it around, confused and thinking they are meant to be part of an onos.
So that's why this "get used to it or leave" mentality is about as accurate as you're going to get. Infestation, gas clouds etc are always going to be messy because completely accurate control over bacteria clouds is impossible.
<!--quoteo(post=2034960:date=Nov 26 2012, 08:31 PM:name=purephoenix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (purephoenix @ Nov 26 2012, 08:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034960"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And reported for investigation to VAC for it, too. I'm not stupid, i have 14 years gaming experience AND i've played with the worlds' best in several games. I know a cheat when i see one and moving faster than a bunnyhopping NS1 celerity skulk at earlier than 1 minute into the game is arguably speed hacking.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--coloro:#FFC0CB--><span style="color:#FFC0CB"><!--/coloro-->It's well known that dropping from the ceiling into a walljump can result in ridiculous speeds. The idea that anyone would think Elodea was speed hacking is comedy gold. And calling this a troll thread? Please, take a few deep breaths and think carefully before posting again.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
You assumed elod had done anything of the sort. <!--coloro:orange--><span style="color:orange"><!--/coloro-->*snip*<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> This was clear open space in topo. edit; from a standing start, to boot. Gamers with 14 years experience aren't dumb enough to make accusations like this without getting their facts straight, first.
<!--coloro:#FFA500--><span style="color:#FFA500"><!--/coloro-->*snip* A pointless and somewhat inflammatory contribution to the thread -Mouse<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--QuoteBegin-purephoenix+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (purephoenix)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Assorted Rubbish<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--quoteo(post=2035421:date=Nov 27 2012, 11:33 AM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 27 2012, 11:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035421"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--coloro:#FFA500--><span style="color:#FFA500"><!--/coloro-->*snip* A pointless and somewhat inflammatory contribution to the thread -Mouse<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think you snipped the wrong post Mouse. If pure phoenix wants to hackuse me, i don't mind him doing it in <b>another thread</b>.
Irrelevant to the thread topic, but I've also noticed some skulks moving freaking insanely fast. I assume its just skilled walljumping though. I've never taken the time to learn how to do it, because it doesn't suit my style, so I can't really make judgement calls about its potency.
Also nice sig elodea. If you weren't such a mindless mainstream Halo 7 COD 21 sheep, you would understand how true that sentence is.
In Elod's defense there are a couple easy ways to gain insane speed at anytime in the game without hacks. The speed hacks i have seen are not fluid and look like someone warping with 1000 ping but covering a lot of ground. These in game legit speed boosts are known and banned in most leagues already.
On topic, i completely agree with Yuuki. Take out all the clutter and obscuring and reimplement it to do the job well. Add a rookie mode to the hud that adds all the help (much like in game tutorial boxes, which all games let you turn off).
Not only will it improve in combat performance but will give more purpose to those skills given the job to obscure.
This is a FPS first after all. Every game has its obscuring mechanics but them are limited and specialized.
<!--quoteo(post=2035639:date=Nov 27 2012, 03:17 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Nov 27 2012, 03:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035639"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Irrelevant to the thread topic, but I've also noticed some skulks moving freaking insanely fast. I assume its just skilled walljumping though. I've never taken the time to learn how to do it, because it doesn't suit my style, so I can't really make judgement calls about its potency.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You can get super fast speed as skulk if you have small walljump speed and boost yourself next to a marine spawning/going through a PG. The pushback will give you a lot of extra speed that you can maintain for awhile if you time your jumps correctly. But the timing has to be really accurate and its not something players can reliably do.
Basically a side effect to ip/pg pushback.
To master walljump you basically get more speed depending of far down you jump. Then you can maintain it by jumping again and again and mixing it walljump time to time. Do that for 5-10 minutes and you have almost mastered it, does not really need any skills to do...
Pretty much, you can get max speed as a skulk with like 3 jumps still, all a result of the storage of momentum mechanics... Kinda offtopic here tho
About vision obscuring, IMO alot of the effects are over the top.. Umbra stacking can be soooo bright it actually is painful.. Jetpack dust and mist are way more obscuring than needed, especially jetpack dusk which can cover close skulks, not to mention the FPS drops from those effects.
Spores are meh, as a vision obscuring mechanic its really situational, and completely player based as you can track a lerk flying through spores perfectly if done right currently, and with some 'adjustments' that will pass every single consistency check to date, you will never have to worry about seeing through spores again...
Spores kind of need to be obscuring though, they're not a ranged ability anymore. A bit of obscuring is good, it gives the lerk SOME chance at surviving while sporing, given that the nearby marines can't mentally track via prediction.
Against good marines who can track mentally, it doesn't help anyway.
I'm very surprised at the amount of flames thrown around this issue, it seems like such a small thing compared to greater balancing concerns.
I'd still like semi-transparent effects on umbra and, to a slightly lesser extent, spore, it should be that I can see a decent distance but identification and tracking enemies is still a challenge and when they are far enough away, I really can't see them.
<!--quoteo(post=2033630:date=Nov 24 2012, 10:57 AM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SentrySteve @ Nov 24 2012, 10:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2033630"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Overall, when it's just one or two of the effects I think it's okay in the sense that I can still manage to be aware of what's going on around me. There are some abilities, such as spore, that block so much vision it's crazy. I would prefer for most alien effects to be more transparent because the video above is a perfect example of how completely overwhelming the effects can be when teams engage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Im okay with it being a little bit more transparent, but consider they ARE supposed to be annoying and are part of the game and the alien tactics; if not, well then ###### marine flashlights, alien vision and power nodes blackout wouldn't exist.
<!--quoteo(post=2036191:date=Nov 28 2012, 12:01 PM:name=Arigatex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arigatex @ Nov 28 2012, 12:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2036191"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Im okay with it being a little bit more transparent, but consider they ARE supposed to be annoying and are part of the game and the alien tactics; if not, well then ###### marine flashlights, alien vision and power nodes blackout wouldn't exist.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This. Also people seem to forget that you play as a TSF Marine. You're the elite of the elite, better than the SAS, Marines, Seals, Gherkas etc PUT TOGETHER. You're here specifically BECAUSE the odds are stacked so highly against you and BECAUSE aliens have these abilities. You are REQUIRED to just suck it up, deal with and kick ass. That's what you're paid for and if you fail, humanity will be extinct.
OP should never have forgotten that, tbh. This is the hardest conflict the human race has ever fought and what makes it worse is (for now anyway) it's on such a small scale that many marines just have to "Make do". There aren't enough skilled marines to be everywhere, so firepower and defense have been sacrificed for ease of relocation, ease of building, ease of use.
People keep criticising the technology and tactics in this game; You forget that the raw fact of limitted resources makes this not only necessary, but the ONLY option.
On the flip side; The Kharaa only HAVE these abilities because their opponents are just that good. Edit to clarify the above sentance; The kharaa have evolved, grown and designed these abilities specifically to counter the sheer skill of the TSF marines. You don't ever get to say it's "over powered"; that's what the aliens are AIMING for, for Gods' sake.
Who's a top NS2 player? Because if you're referring to the whole me vs elod area, you're delusional. Elodea is terrible and never played NS1 plus doesn't even clan in NS2.
<!--quoteo(post=2036240:date=Nov 27 2012, 06:42 PM:name=purephoenix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (purephoenix @ Nov 27 2012, 06:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2036240"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Who's a top NS2 player? Because if you're referring to the whole me vs elod area, you're delusional. Elodea is terrible and never played NS1 plus doesn't even clan in NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yuuki, Locklear, Glissy...?
Also not to you. I am not aware of your skill level, but there are 10+ players in here I know are exclusively pub players.
No offence, but i don't see how your point is relevant? None of those 3 are ns1 vets so how would they know the difference? Pardon me saying, but it's rather important to have actually PLAYED ns1 to be able to comment on how the immersion is potentially "ruining" NS2.
I say that, because like i pointed out earlier, NS1 had far more immersion and nobody ever complained about it. Many people actually loved it, because it helped you get "In Role" better and bring out your best.
Personally i lived for that immersion while NS1 was active. There was nothing more satisfying than sneaking into a hive and getting a phase/seiges up just because i hid in corners and didn't blast every life form and building near me like every other cod brat.
<!--coloro:#FFC0CB--><span style="color:#FFC0CB"><!--/coloro-->Immersion has always been a big part of NS. The ambient music in the original really helped to give it that eerie atmosphere. NS2 has this same design goal, to be immersive and bring the player into the game. That said, the way you achieve this immersion needs to be carefully considered. The particle effects are nice but many of them are a bit over the top.
Umbra is probably one of the best examples. The original umbra effect was perfectly fine; you knew it was there, what it was, but it didn't obscure your view to any notable level. Then this newer version was added, obnoxiously fluorescent like a ball of plasma torn straight from a star. It is so bad that even as aliens it's annoying.
In any case, the video in the OP clearly demonstrates that there is far too much visual clutter in the game right now. Once proper transparency is put in the engine it will be simple to reduce this obstruction without completely removing the immersive "detail" effects like jetpack dust.
As a final note I'll just add that calling veteran competitive NS2 players' opinions invalid because "they didn't play NS1" is absurd. Get off your high horse, phoenix.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Comments
I've been in both of the two oldest clans in NS history, claiming i'm ignorant of the game only makes you look retarded. My bad manners on the other hand are clear to see and if you don't like them directed at you, quit making troll threads.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->and was quite rudely accused of skulk speed hacking a few days ago by pure phoenix (rofl).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And reported for investigation to VAC for it, too. I'm not stupid, i have 14 years gaming experience AND i've played with the worlds' best in several games. I know a cheat when i see one and moving faster than a bunnyhopping NS1 celerity skulk at earlier than 1 minute into the game is arguably speed hacking.
Now i just sit back and wait for the permaban coming your way, since the chances of me actually being right on the accusation is astronomical.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I can totally understand why some of you like the current level of particle effects. This is i think because of the following two reasons
1) You havn't played enough hours to get over the initial immersion kick, fully understand what vision obstruction is actually doing to you, and fully understand how it affects the flow of the game if you "sit back and wait for it to go away". This is understandable and legit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or we simply learned to filter it out and deal with it. Tracking via mental imagery is more common than you think and is how many pros in CS could wallbang even after losing sight of their target.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2) You havn't yet experienced being purposely trolled with every single vision blocking mechanic at every step constantly throughout a game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Get the commander to sell IP's and start Last Man Standing. Easy fixed.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Some of you are basing your judgement based on (incomplete) personal experience hence why i originally tried to get community footage to paint a complete and honest picture we could discuss around.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A video will never be a "complete and honest picture" unless you show how you let the alien team get 6+ resource nodes and the 3 hives required for umbra spam.
Bet you thought nobody would catch on to the fact that umbra requires 3 hives and is being spammed in the opening posts' video, huh? Shame on you, even at trolling you fail.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->does this mean vision obstruction is not a very big deciding factor?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The deciding factor for your loss, like i stressed several posts ago, is allowing the enemy team to have all 3 hives.
If you can't be bothered playing properly and end up with a heavily stilted match, then you lose all credibility when you cry "OP!"
In ns2 vision blocking is spread all over the place, on mechanics that have completely other functions (e.g. blocking bullets, giving you light). The results of this is a mess: a design mess and a visual mess. Design mess makes the game harder to learn (good example of that is how lights can be both on and off when you have no powernode built, this kind of inconsistencies makes the game much harder to learn).
So, the recipe is: pick one or two mechanics which primary goal is to block vision (cysts rupture is already doing this) and make sure it's doing its job correctly. Then remove vision blocking on the other mechanics.
Visual obstruction is a gameplay mechanic to that tests how players react to stress and imperfect information.
Just because the FPS games of yore were not able to render such things doesn't mean that was how FPS games were meant to be.
In ns2 vision blocking is spread all over the place, on mechanics that have completely other functions (e.g. blocking bullets, giving you light). The results of this is a mess: a design mess and a visual mess. Design mess makes the game harder to learn (good example of that is how lights can be both on and off when you have no powernode built, this kind of inconsistencies makes the game much harder to learn).
So, the recipe is: pick one or two mechanics which primary goal is to block vision (cysts rupture is already doing this) and make sure it's doing its job correctly. Then remove vision blocking on the other mechanics.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This, time and time again, this.
This game has come a very long way in focusing design elements and aligning conflicting concepts, but we're not there yet. Some remaining elements are indeed still quite "messy". The current implementation of vision blocking is a perfect example of this.
Hell yes, let's give the aliens some vision blocking abilities. But let's do it <i>right</i>.
I disagree completely. Special effects blocking vision are a part of gameplay just as much as walking into a wall stops you from clipping through it.
People need to stop dreaming about "cleaning up the screen" for their comfort. If effects disorient you it means you are playing bad and that's that.
People need to stop dreaming about "cleaning up the screen" for their comfort. If effects disorient you it means you are playing bad and that's that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think you've misunderstood what Yuuki is trying to say. He is not asking for less overall vision blocking, he's asking for vision blocking to be consolidated into a small number of abilities that do it really really well.
For example, imagine if nutrient mist and umbra did not block vision at all, but spores covered a much larger area and was even thicker and harder to see through... Or perhaps the lerk fired spores in a similar pattern to a very short-range flamethrower, casting a thicking obscuring cloud slightly in-front of it as it flew... Or maybe if the spore clouds inherited the lerk's momentum so that the lerk could use speed and skill to project spores onto marines without directly engaging...
Let's have some <i>awesome</i> skill-based vision blockers that are really good at what they do, and then let's tone down the others so that we end up with roughly the same amount of total vision blocking.
Umm... Stop standing half a meter off the ground? If you have trouble with nutrient mist blocking vision you might want to consider playing a simpler game like pong.. It isn't even tall enough to hide skulks in it lol.
For example, imagine if nutrient mist and umbra did not block vision at all, but spores covered a much larger area and was even thicker and harder to see through... Or perhaps the lerk fired spores in a similar pattern to a very short-range flamethrower, casting a thicking obscuring cloud slightly in-front of it as it flew... Or maybe if the spore clouds inherited the lerk's momentum so that the lerk could use speed and skill to project spores onto marines without directly engaging...
Let's have some <i>awesome</i> skill-based vision blockers that are really good at what they do, and then let's tone down the others so that we end up with roughly the same amount of total vision blocking.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Accidental or deliberated, environmental effects are a part of the game. They create hazard, opportunities and force gameplay choices. Little would be improved by removing effects from current abilities and the game's atmosphere would suffer. You want a smokescreen ability? That sounds cool. Doesn't mean it makes sense to reduce other atmospheric effects. If clutter bothers you, well, you are fighting a vicious biological agent in a closed environment. Find another game.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If clutter bothers you, well, you are fighting a vicious biological agent in a closed environment. Find another game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's not a valid argument. You're saying: "You don't like X. Then play another game." You're not saying anything about X being good or desirable, which is the subject of the debate.
You're loosing your time typing such things, so for your finger sakes (arthritis is bad you know?) try to include some information about the subject when you type.
If it's time for an onos, the hive is going to send orders into the sub-animal intelligence of the bacteria mist.
Even if only 1 billion are required, it's not going to send 1 billion particles to create an onos. ALL nearby particles are going to think they need to build an onos and if there's too many, well guess what? You now have potentially 1.2 billion particles trying to fit into the same onos form, 1 b successfull and 200 million spare particles following it around, confused and thinking they are meant to be part of an onos.
So that's why this "get used to it or leave" mentality is about as accurate as you're going to get.
Infestation, gas clouds etc are always going to be messy because completely accurate control over bacteria clouds is impossible.
<!--coloro:#FFC0CB--><span style="color:#FFC0CB"><!--/coloro-->It's well known that dropping from the ceiling into a walljump can result in ridiculous speeds. The idea that anyone would think Elodea was speed hacking is comedy gold. And calling this a troll thread? Please, take a few deep breaths and think carefully before posting again.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
This was clear open space in topo.
edit; from a standing start, to boot. Gamers with 14 years experience aren't dumb enough to make accusations like this without getting their facts straight, first.
A pointless and somewhat inflammatory contribution to the thread
-Mouse<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--quoteo(post=2035421:date=Nov 27 2012, 11:33 AM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 27 2012, 11:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035421"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--coloro:#FFA500--><span style="color:#FFA500"><!--/coloro-->*snip*
A pointless and somewhat inflammatory contribution to the thread
-Mouse<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think you snipped the wrong post Mouse. If pure phoenix wants to hackuse me, i don't mind him doing it in <b>another thread</b>.
Also nice sig elodea. If you weren't such a mindless mainstream Halo 7 COD 21 sheep, you would understand how true that sentence is.
On topic, i completely agree with Yuuki. Take out all the clutter and obscuring and reimplement it to do the job well. Add a rookie mode to the hud that adds all the help (much like in game tutorial boxes, which all games let you turn off).
Not only will it improve in combat performance but will give more purpose to those skills given the job to obscure.
This is a FPS first after all. Every game has its obscuring mechanics but them are limited and specialized.
You can get super fast speed as skulk if you have small walljump speed and boost yourself next to a marine spawning/going through a PG. The pushback will give you a lot of extra speed that you can maintain for awhile if you time your jumps correctly. But the timing has to be really accurate and its not something players can reliably do.
Basically a side effect to ip/pg pushback.
To master walljump you basically get more speed depending of far down you jump. Then you can maintain it by jumping again and again and mixing it walljump time to time. Do that for 5-10 minutes and you have almost mastered it, does not really need any skills to do...
About vision obscuring, IMO alot of the effects are over the top.. Umbra stacking can be soooo bright it actually is painful.. Jetpack dust and mist are way more obscuring than needed, especially jetpack dusk which can cover close skulks, not to mention the FPS drops from those effects.
Spores are meh, as a vision obscuring mechanic its really situational, and completely player based as you can track a lerk flying through spores perfectly if done right currently, and with some 'adjustments' that will pass every single consistency check to date, you will never have to worry about seeing through spores again...
A bit of obscuring is good, it gives the lerk SOME chance at surviving while sporing, given that the nearby marines can't mentally track via prediction.
Against good marines who can track mentally, it doesn't help anyway.
I'd still like semi-transparent effects on umbra and, to a slightly lesser extent, spore,
it should be that I can see a decent distance but identification and tracking enemies is still a challenge and when they are far enough away, I really can't see them.
Im okay with it being a little bit more transparent, but consider they ARE supposed to be annoying and are part of the game and the alien tactics; if not, well then ###### marine flashlights, alien vision and power nodes blackout wouldn't exist.
This. Also people seem to forget that you play as a TSF Marine. You're the elite of the elite, better than the SAS, Marines, Seals, Gherkas etc PUT TOGETHER. You're here specifically BECAUSE the odds are stacked so highly against you and BECAUSE aliens have these abilities. You are REQUIRED to just suck it up, deal with and kick ass. That's what you're paid for and if you fail, humanity will be extinct.
OP should never have forgotten that, tbh. This is the hardest conflict the human race has ever fought and what makes it worse is (for now anyway) it's on such a small scale that many marines just have to "Make do".
There aren't enough skilled marines to be everywhere, so firepower and defense have been sacrificed for ease of relocation, ease of building, ease of use.
People keep criticising the technology and tactics in this game; You forget that the raw fact of limitted resources makes this not only necessary, but the ONLY option.
On the flip side; The Kharaa only HAVE these abilities because their opponents are just that good.
Edit to clarify the above sentance; The kharaa have evolved, grown and designed these abilities specifically to counter the sheer skill of the TSF marines. You don't ever get to say it's "over powered"; that's what the aliens are AIMING for, for Gods' sake.
Abundant effects good for immersion
Imbalanced for Marines but can rebalance elsewhere
Special effects make great indicators
Immersion makes video games fun,
coexist with competition, part of the challenge.
Save pennies for better pc
Yuuki, Locklear, Glissy...?
Also not to you. I am not aware of your skill level, but there are 10+ players in here I know are exclusively pub players.
I say that, because like i pointed out earlier, NS1 had far more immersion and nobody ever complained about it. Many people actually loved it, because it helped you get "In Role" better and bring out your best.
Personally i lived for that immersion while NS1 was active. There was nothing more satisfying than sneaking into a hive and getting a phase/seiges up just because i hid in corners and didn't blast every life form and building near me like every other cod brat.
Umbra is probably one of the best examples. The original umbra effect was perfectly fine; you knew it was there, what it was, but it didn't obscure your view to any notable level. Then this newer version was added, obnoxiously fluorescent like a ball of plasma torn straight from a star. It is so bad that even as aliens it's annoying.
In any case, the video in the OP clearly demonstrates that there is far too much visual clutter in the game right now. Once proper transparency is put in the engine it will be simple to reduce this obstruction without completely removing the immersive "detail" effects like jetpack dust.
As a final note I'll just add that calling veteran competitive NS2 players' opinions invalid because "they didn't play NS1" is absurd. Get off your high horse, phoenix.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->