I think that with the gorge in its current state, sentry changes would do almost nothing. I think that the gorges ability to hit so much with bile bomb is a big part of why marines lose outposts quickly, and changes to sentries would play right into the gorges strengths.
I think a good band aid fix would be to reduce the ability of a lone gorge to absolutely annihilate marine bases. To do this, reduce the bile bombs direct damage to armour and structures by 50%, and then increase damage taken by the affected target by 25% from all sources other than bile bomb. This suggestion is so obvious and so team oriented (which you think would be a good thing) and has been going around for ages, but UWE don't seem to like it.
<!--quoteo(post=2063323:date=Jan 19 2013, 02:10 PM:name=1dominator1)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (1dominator1 @ Jan 19 2013, 02:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063323"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A graphing of this forum's opinion of the games balance w.r.t time produces a sine wave. Up down up down up down up down.
Does anyone know whether marines or aliens require more res to reach effective late game tech?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Marines need much more. Throw on that marine commander has loads of consumables to drop, and they are much more res intensive than aliens.
Edit: Watch competitive matches, you will see marines will tend to be consuming 50-100% more res than aliens are.
<!--quoteo(post=2063207:date=Jan 19 2013, 05:10 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Jan 19 2013, 05:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063207"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->^^This. Oh dear God this ^^
The solution is NOT in sentries.
The biggest problem with sentries is that when you need them (very beginning of game) you can't afford them, but when you can afford them the aliens have lerks and gorges who take them out like they're nothing. No - sentries are not the answer.
What marines need are electrified res nodes, OR permanently nanoshielded res nodes. Marines loose the early game far too often since they can't keep their extractors up. NS2 becomes a glorified game of whack-a-mole (whack-a-skulk) where marines run from extractor to extractor playing cat and mouse. It's *PAINFULLY* boring, and it dilutes the game down to a glorified game of 'Extractor Warz!'.
Especially at the start when you have armor 0 marines dying in 2 bites (since there is no arms lab yet) the marines are very much vulnerable to skulk 'gank squads' of three which zerg around killing marine and extractor alike. For marines to counter they need to be in one big group, which then too means they lose map control and are unable to develop their economy. <b> TLDR version: It's too easy for aliens to win the game in the first 5 minutes by simply taking out a few extractors.</b>
The solution - imho - is to return the early game to a player versus player game. Right now it is a skulk versus extractor game. Marines can't attack alien extractors in the early game since they can't normally make it across the map. (unless the aliens are newbies) The skulk speed means that the battle is always on the marine side of the map. As such, the marines need a way to counter that.
We had the same thing happen in NS1, and while the developers resisted it, they eventually realized that electrified res nodes were needed since marines were building sentry nests at EVERY extractor they built. (and they were still losing since they were spending all that res on sentries - not to mention there were often blind spots that cost them the extractor anyway)
There is no 'L2P' issue here for marines since any alien who knows how to play will just constantly rush the marine extractors. If you kill off three you win the game. It's that simple. Marines will never be able to recover. (and killing 3 is easy) Making the marines pay 25 res just to secure one extractor (not to mention the initial cost to build a robotics factory) will only delay a marine loss. Yeah it may save the early extractors, but all that lost res poured into sentry nests means the marines are fatally behind in tech.
Sentries - in their present form - are just a waste of resources. Plain and simple. I won't bother listing all the reasons why since most people know it. So instead of sentries what marines need is a means to hold onto extractors in the beginning of the game. Give them that and you'll have a contest.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with every word written here. Its what I and many others have been saying for a while.
Just last night in game a discussion starting saying this. Marines early game is just building/re-building/protecting extractors. That is if you get the chance to leave the base as wave after wave of Skulks inevitably always rush the base for the first 5 minutes and if that doesn't work the Aliens then have map control by then anyway and Marines have little of anything.
Great post and I hope UW read and re-read it again and again and look into this.
So MrChoke's first thread about his hand written statistics concerning Win Loss ratio was met with "use NS2Stats" and "Pubs don't play Marines right, L2P" so you create a second advocating turret changes of all things then say "Don't troll me with L2P".
Increasing marine turtling capacity is a terrible way of balancing. And there's a reason sentries are so weak. If they were any good they'd be placed everywhere, and that's no fun at all.
The biggest fallacy believed by pub marine teams is that because they're losing they need more defense. In reality it's the opposite, they lose because they fail to be aggressive.
<!--quoteo(post=2063246:date=Jan 19 2013, 01:02 PM:name=Davil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Davil @ Jan 19 2013, 01:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063246"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sentries will not save marines, bile bomb kills sentries very rapidly. Marines lose the 'battle for res' because they generally all go in one direction or try to defend areas rather than place any pressure on the aliens. You have to realize that aliens don't have to worry about building, the comm handles that whole thing. So if you're not pushing the aliens at all they have nothing to do but attack you and stop you from putting up rt's. Essentially you need to be aggressive early game and maintain pressure, that's one of the main reasons I see aliens win in pubs. Aggressive game play comes naturally to the alien team, but marines are scared to walk through a door.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This an L2P comment. NO. People know how to play the game. Marines still lose. This is not an answer.
<!--quoteo(post=2063334:date=Jan 19 2013, 03:37 PM:name=Omar - The Wire)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Omar - The Wire @ Jan 19 2013, 03:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063334"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So MrChoke's first thread about his hand written statistics concerning Win Loss ratio was met with "use NS2Stats" and "Pubs don't play Marines right, L2P" so you create a second advocating turret changes of all things then say "Don't troll me with L2P".
<!--quoteo(post=2063333:date=Jan 19 2013, 03:37 PM:name=Salraine_Chi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Salraine_Chi @ Jan 19 2013, 03:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063333"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree with every word written here. Its what I and many others have been saying for a while.
Just last night in game a discussion starting saying this. Marines early game is just building/re-building/protecting extractors. That is if you get the chance to leave the base as wave after wave of Skulks inevitably always rush the base for the first 5 minutes and if that doesn't work the Aliens then have map control by then anyway and Marines have little of anything.
Great post and I hope UW read and re-read it again and again and look into this.
Sal<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I had read the electrified extractor before too but I don't know what it was. How did that work? Was it the same as increasing the health of the extractor?
Another thing I read is people saying sentries suck, as I think as well. But what I also hear just as loudly is to get rid of them because lerks and gorges take them so easily. Yes, agreed they do. So maybe do something about that? This is why I suggested it. Instead of sh*tcanning an entire concept of the game, make it better. And help solve the core problem (aliens win too much), while you are at it.
<!--quoteo(post=2063234:date=Jan 19 2013, 06:47 PM:name=DamDSx)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DamDSx @ Jan 19 2013, 06:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063234"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->bring back electrify. best feature for marines taken away.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> exactly! that was one of the most effective and cheapest methods to defend RTs in NS1 without building large turretfarms. I never liked sentrys. they usually block your freedom of movement when deployed next to phasegates or other structures, cost too much resources, don't do that much damage until weapons lvl 2 and most importantly people tend to be too lazy to build them.
<!--quoteo(post=2063374:date=Jan 19 2013, 05:11 PM:name=Lt.Realness)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lt.Realness @ Jan 19 2013, 05:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063374"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->exactly! that was one of the most effective and cheapest methods to defend RTs in NS1 without building large turretfarms. I never liked sentrys. they usually block your freedom of movement when deployed next to phasegates or other structures, cost too much resources, don't do that much damage until weapons lvl 2 and most importantly people tend to be too lazy to build them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I never played NS1. Please explain how this worked.
<!--quoteo(post=2063378:date=Jan 19 2013, 07:19 PM:name=MrChoke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MrChoke @ Jan 19 2013, 07:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063378"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I never played NS1. Please explain how this worked.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Basically you built your extractor, then you used an 'upgrade' function on the extractor which 'electrified' it. From a distance it had sort of a silver sheen on it. If an alien got too close, they would get hit with arcs of electricity. Not enough to kill a skulk in one shot, but it would in 3 or 4 shots IIRC. Bigger aliens wouldn't be bothered by it, so it wasn't overpowered.
Before they had this, marines would build an extractor and then drop down 4 turrets. Same at each one. It got silly since it became the only way to play and win. Otherwise you'd never be able to keep your extractors up.
Fast forward to NS2 and we have the same problem.
Personally I think electrified nodes would be perfect since taking down the power node is still an option and if that goes down you could still take out the extractor. It would just buy the marines more time.
<!--quoteo(post=2063378:date=Jan 19 2013, 11:19 PM:name=MrChoke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MrChoke @ Jan 19 2013, 11:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063378"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I never played NS1. Please explain how this worked.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> well you had to drop a turret factory and then research 'electrical defense' for 30 res. as soon as that upgrade was complete you could select every RT or TF and activate electrical defense for another 10 or 15 res (I can't remember exactly how much it was). it was an effective method to keep skulks off the RTs even in late games.
<!--quoteo(post=2063383:date=Jan 19 2013, 05:45 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Jan 19 2013, 05:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063383"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Basically you built your extractor, then you used an 'upgrade' function on the extractor which 'electrified' it. From a distance it had sort of a silver sheen on it. If an alien got too close, they would get hit with arcs of electricity. Not enough to kill a skulk in one shot, but it would in 3 or 4 shots IIRC. Bigger aliens wouldn't be bothered by it, so it wasn't overpowered.
Before they had this, marines would build an extractor and then drop down 4 turrets. Same at each one. It got silly since it became the only way to play and win. Otherwise you'd never be able to keep your extractors up.
Fast forward to NS2 and we have the same problem.
Personally I think electrified nodes would be perfect since taking down the power node is still an option and if that goes down you could still take out the extractor. It would just buy the marines more time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why did they not do this for NS2????? I am sold on the idea.
Here is the problem, I doubt someone can MOD something liike that. It is way beyond the time and energy I can apply to learning LUA and doing it, even if it is feasible. I don't know when or if UWE will fix this alien OP problem. I am looking for the community to fix the game at this point. A solution moddable by a guy like me who can basically only tweak a LUA file, is the best I can hope for. Of course it won't be the best solution, but it may be better than what we have now.
<!--quoteo(post=2063303:date=Jan 20 2013, 05:35 AM:name=CommunistWithAGun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CommunistWithAGun @ Jan 20 2013, 05:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063303"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Savant said it best in a different thread
Skulks have almost zero liabilities. Each marine death sends aftershocks through the marine team, a skulk death is nothing. This is a problem because even though marines are free, they have to build, they have to protect nodes, they have to walk from one end to the other of these giant maps, and if the aliens simply harass RTs they WILL WIN, because they have the benefit of auto building res nodes. You can't kill enough harvesters fast enough to compete as marine. Aliens can also "scrape by" on 3-4 nodes, where as I don't feel comfortable as a marine comm until I am holding 5.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> ROFL....Yes because we often see a marine team egg locked by dying too much early on.
Sorry but a marine dying has less of an impact than a skulk.
Average time in spawn queue is higher for aliens than marines.
You are losing your res nodes...try Nano and actually defending. UWE has said they did not like electrifying the nodes...nano is much better idea as its not permanent but reduces damage taken and allows your team to respond. If your team cant respond then you have over-extended or they dont know how to follow orders/play.
Push without over extending and harrass cysts and harvesters non stop. Marines can easily win enough as long as they know how to play (sorry but it really is a L2p issue which causes most marine losses).
This is not NS....you cant simply sit on 3 res nodes and expect to win through a turtle. Being a great shot will not win your team the game...these games are won with team work, ssadly something thats missing on most server (I often change servers until I find a group of people who know how to play.
<!--quoteo(post=2063469:date=Jan 19 2013, 10:28 PM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Jan 19 2013, 10:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063469"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes because we often see a marine team egg locked by dying too much early on. Sorry but a marine dying has less of an impact than a skulk.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->If aliens get egg-locked because they are dying too much, that's a skill problem not a game problem.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You are losing your res nodes...try Nano and actually defending.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Are you actually reading the same thread? Try nano? You do realize that nano needs 2 command stations right? It's the early game where marines lose extractors which cost them the game. Later on when they have nano losing an extractor isn't as significant since you have a decent res flow by then.
It's the same reason why sentry changes are pointless since in the early game marines can't afford it.
MrChoke, the problem is that most people really don't know how to play this game. I've been playing NS for 10 years, and I still learn new things. Once you move beyond the pub games that you are used to, you will realize quickly just how little you know about the game.
Then after a couple seasons in ENSL (or CAL back in the day) and watching a lot of Archaea/nexzil/all-in/exertus (or 9L and Terror in ns1) and more demos, you will start to learn the mistake in your ways.
Fundamentally the main problem with why marines are bad in pubs, is because they play passive, and not aggressive. The best defense, is a good offense. If you aren't playing aggressive, it really is a l2p issue.
Trust me, no amount of turret ANYTHING, will change that. The sole way I can obviously tell you are new to the game, is because you MADE A THREAD ABOUT TURRETs.
<!--quoteo(post=2063504:date=Jan 19 2013, 06:34 PM:name=GirTurkey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GirTurkey @ Jan 19 2013, 06:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063504"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->MrChoke, the problem is that most people really don't know how to play this game. I've been playing NS for 10 years, and I still learn new things. Once you move beyond the pub games that you are used to, you will realize quickly just how little you know about the game.
Then after a couple seasons in ENSL (or CAL back in the day) and watching a lot of Archaea/nexzil/all-in/exertus (or 9L and Terror in ns1) and more demos, you will start to learn the mistake in your ways.
Fundamentally the main problem with why marines are bad in pubs, is because they play passive, and not aggressive. The best defense, is a good offense. If you aren't playing aggressive, it really is a l2p issue.
Trust me, no amount of turret ANYTHING, will change that. The sole way I can obviously tell you are new to the game, is because you MADE A THREAD ABOUT TURRETs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, it's more the fact Turrets exist and the completely suck. It seems like a waste of resources and design for UWE just to drop it and forget about them. Yes, turrets suck and I'd never want to build them unless I was literally out of things to buy and still full at 200/200, but that won't happen. However, I see turrets like a alien lifeform/ability. Should we get rid of Vortex/Turrets or maybe we should redesign them to be more useful. This discussion is talking about the later.
Maybe we should stop and think what do Marines have that is actually effective? Because the answer to that is Shotguns and Jetpacks.
And that's it. Out of the Marines ENTIRE tech tree, the only thing you can rely on is Shotguns and Jetpacks. Does this not send off alarm bells for anyone else?
I'm an mostly alien player and I can tell you that turrets are crap. I am far, far more likely to die to a marine than a sentry. But I'd also would like to say that placement is a factor.
I'd say keep the limit at 3 sentries, but allow for the placement 3 batteries too (Maybe 2 or 3 res cheaper).
But why allow the placement of three batteries per room, (even at a reduced cost) your wasting even more res!
The thing is that what we have now is a defense that only has one POV, all clustered around that battery. Allowing multiple batteries will make for more effective placements. Sure your fire power isn't as concentrated, but with multiple POV's, there are less places that are out of their LOS for an alien. And they can defend themselves too, you could place them in such a way that in order to attack one (or a another target) your exposed to the other.
For instance, say you were able to put 3 sentries in bar, rather than cluster them all around one point, you put the in the 3 corners that aren't the door. So the one under the vent, normally the skulk (if he knew better) could just ease in and nom on top of it, but with multiple placements, he'd be exposed to the other two.
<!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->TD;LR:<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> Multiple batteries allow for sentries to cover each other, better strategic placement, and if one battery is destroyed, you don't lose all your static defenses.
[EDIT] And maybe add an researchable upgrade that increases the sentries' FOV (The blue semi-circle) and range.
The whole changes you propose seem nice and all, but you fail to include any evidence about aliens winning too much. What do you have to support aliens winning 'too much'?
<!--quoteo(post=2063572:date=Jan 20 2013, 12:28 AM:name=Salt)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Salt @ Jan 20 2013, 12:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063572"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The whole changes you propose seem nice and all, but you fail to include any evidence about aliens winning too much. What do you have to support aliens winning 'too much'?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> While I'm not as bad as a rookie, I'm still pretty new and I noticed it is harder to win as marines. As I've said earlier, I'm a newbie and can kill sentries with relative ease compared to a marine. Secondly it is easier to hit as an alien, just run in their general direction and bite while marines actually have to aim. But they have raged weapons! True, but most of them do their damage as a light continuous stream which you have to keep on target in order to do damage. While most aliens do high damage in spurts, so if you click the button (and it's a hit) the damage is is done, no need to trace your target to do full damage. That's why the shotgun is so effective in the right hands.
<!--quoteo(post=2063582:date=Jan 20 2013, 12:57 AM:name=ogz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ogz @ Jan 20 2013, 12:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063582"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i reckon give them the ability to build as many sentry batteries as they want but only 1 sentry per room<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> What would that do? Other than powering sentries they have no effect, what your saying is a straight nerf to the marines;<b> in a thread about making them balanced with the aliens because they are winning too much. </b>
So, let's step away from sentries for a moment (which do need some kind of defense against bile bomb to make them scale into late-game [shoot the bile projectiles?]) and talk about the real problem you're having. Marines can't seem to hold their res nodes early game.
This is very easily solved by a team working together and an immediate investment in mines. A mine in a vent, behind an RT, around a corner... a mine in general is res well spent early game. One mine will generally kill a skulk assuming they aren't going too fast for the blast or have carapace, which won't be likely in the early portion of the game you're worried about. If your marines can manage to kill a skulk, and place their mines on RTs and vents, you won't be having these problems.
This is, indeed, a L2P issue. Less focus on sentries, more focus on getting your team to place mines on RTs, vents, and phase gates. Anything that is important should be protected. This will free up your marines to actually attack.
Right now marines is becoming very non fun to play. 3 skulks running in a pack can usually kill an extractor before marines can respond early game and usually kill anything less than 3-4 marines unless the marines are excellent marksman.
On top of that I have seen a lot of teams of Fades running in packs as well. 3 Fades with Carapace will destroy 6+ Marines no problem. Something needs to balance the equation out. Win loss ratio is not good right now, and the ratio is making less and less people want to play.
UWE is going to have to do something to get things back to a more playable w/l ratio before long.
TL/DR. I'm sure, with gorge spit fixed people noticed how easy it is for a single gorge to take out a sentry with spitting on it. It goes down in about 10 spits. Sentry guns are even worse than turrets in ns1 while whips + hydras are better than offense chambers (impossible to dodge, grenade knockback). While packing the map full of static defenses is certainly not the best way to play, many pub games end up this way and I think this hurts the game balance.
<!--quoteo(post=2063594:date=Jan 20 2013, 01:38 AM:name=JediPhreaK)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JediPhreaK @ Jan 20 2013, 01:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063594"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->On top of that I have seen a lot of teams of Fades running in packs as well. 3 Fades with Carapace will destroy 6+ Marines no problem. Something needs to balance the equation out. Win loss ratio is not good right now, and the ratio is making less and less people want to play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Assuming they are stock, that's two 0 res VS one 50 res x3, sounds fine. On top that, what sensible fade even with back up charges into pretty much an entire team unless it's the final base?
Comments
I think a good band aid fix would be to reduce the ability of a lone gorge to absolutely annihilate marine bases. To do this, reduce the bile bombs direct damage to armour and structures by 50%, and then increase damage taken by the affected target by 25% from all sources other than bile bomb. This suggestion is so obvious and so team oriented (which you think would be a good thing) and has been going around for ages, but UWE don't seem to like it.
Does anyone know whether marines or aliens require more res to reach effective late game tech?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Marines need much more. Throw on that marine commander has loads of consumables to drop, and they are much more res intensive than aliens.
Edit: Watch competitive matches, you will see marines will tend to be consuming 50-100% more res than aliens are.
The solution is NOT in sentries.
The biggest problem with sentries is that when you need them (very beginning of game) you can't afford them, but when you can afford them the aliens have lerks and gorges who take them out like they're nothing. No - sentries are not the answer.
What marines need are electrified res nodes, OR permanently nanoshielded res nodes. Marines loose the early game far too often since they can't keep their extractors up. NS2 becomes a glorified game of whack-a-mole (whack-a-skulk) where marines run from extractor to extractor playing cat and mouse. It's *PAINFULLY* boring, and it dilutes the game down to a glorified game of 'Extractor Warz!'.
Especially at the start when you have armor 0 marines dying in 2 bites (since there is no arms lab yet) the marines are very much vulnerable to skulk 'gank squads' of three which zerg around killing marine and extractor alike. For marines to counter they need to be in one big group, which then too means they lose map control and are unable to develop their economy.
<b>
TLDR version: It's too easy for aliens to win the game in the first 5 minutes by simply taking out a few extractors.</b>
The solution - imho - is to return the early game to a player versus player game. Right now it is a skulk versus extractor game. Marines can't attack alien extractors in the early game since they can't normally make it across the map. (unless the aliens are newbies) The skulk speed means that the battle is always on the marine side of the map. As such, the marines need a way to counter that.
We had the same thing happen in NS1, and while the developers resisted it, they eventually realized that electrified res nodes were needed since marines were building sentry nests at EVERY extractor they built. (and they were still losing since they were spending all that res on sentries - not to mention there were often blind spots that cost them the extractor anyway)
There is no 'L2P' issue here for marines since any alien who knows how to play will just constantly rush the marine extractors. If you kill off three you win the game. It's that simple. Marines will never be able to recover. (and killing 3 is easy) Making the marines pay 25 res just to secure one extractor (not to mention the initial cost to build a robotics factory) will only delay a marine loss. Yeah it may save the early extractors, but all that lost res poured into sentry nests means the marines are fatally behind in tech.
Sentries - in their present form - are just a waste of resources. Plain and simple. I won't bother listing all the reasons why since most people know it. So instead of sentries what marines need is a means to hold onto extractors in the beginning of the game. Give them that and you'll have a contest.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with every word written here. Its what I and many others have been saying for a while.
Just last night in game a discussion starting saying this. Marines early game is just building/re-building/protecting extractors. That is if you get the chance to leave the base as wave after wave of Skulks inevitably always rush the base for the first 5 minutes and if that doesn't work the Aliens then have map control by then anyway and Marines have little of anything.
Great post and I hope UW read and re-read it again and again and look into this.
Sal
You're kidding right?
This an L2P comment. NO. People know how to play the game. Marines still lose. This is not an answer.
You're kidding right?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't know what your talking about. Go away, troll.
Just last night in game a discussion starting saying this. Marines early game is just building/re-building/protecting extractors. That is if you get the chance to leave the base as wave after wave of Skulks inevitably always rush the base for the first 5 minutes and if that doesn't work the Aliens then have map control by then anyway and Marines have little of anything.
Great post and I hope UW read and re-read it again and again and look into this.
Sal<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I had read the electrified extractor before too but I don't know what it was. How did that work? Was it the same as increasing the health of the extractor?
exactly! that was one of the most effective and cheapest methods to defend RTs in NS1 without building large turretfarms. I never liked sentrys. they usually block your freedom of movement when deployed next to phasegates or other structures, cost too much resources, don't do that much damage until weapons lvl 2 and most importantly people tend to be too lazy to build them.
I never played NS1. Please explain how this worked.
Before they had this, marines would build an extractor and then drop down 4 turrets. Same at each one. It got silly since it became the only way to play and win. Otherwise you'd never be able to keep your extractors up.
Fast forward to NS2 and we have the same problem.
Personally I think electrified nodes would be perfect since taking down the power node is still an option and if that goes down you could still take out the extractor. It would just buy the marines more time.
well you had to drop a turret factory and then research 'electrical defense' for 30 res. as soon as that upgrade was complete you could select every RT or TF and activate electrical defense for another 10 or 15 res (I can't remember exactly how much it was). it was an effective method to keep skulks off the RTs even in late games.
Before they had this, marines would build an extractor and then drop down 4 turrets. Same at each one. It got silly since it became the only way to play and win. Otherwise you'd never be able to keep your extractors up.
Fast forward to NS2 and we have the same problem.
Personally I think electrified nodes would be perfect since taking down the power node is still an option and if that goes down you could still take out the extractor. It would just buy the marines more time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why did they not do this for NS2????? I am sold on the idea.
Here is the problem, I doubt someone can MOD something liike that. It is way beyond the time and energy I can apply to learning LUA and doing it, even if it is feasible. I don't know when or if UWE will fix this alien OP problem. I am looking for the community to fix the game at this point. A solution moddable by a guy like me who can basically only tweak a LUA file, is the best I can hope for. Of course it won't be the best solution, but it may be better than what we have now.
Skulks have almost zero liabilities. Each marine death sends aftershocks through the marine team, a skulk death is nothing. This is a problem because even though marines are free, they have to build, they have to protect nodes, they have to walk from one end to the other of these giant maps, and if the aliens simply harass RTs they WILL WIN, because they have the benefit of auto building res nodes. You can't kill enough harvesters fast enough to compete as marine. Aliens can also "scrape by" on 3-4 nodes, where as I don't feel comfortable as a marine comm until I am holding 5.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ROFL....Yes because we often see a marine team egg locked by dying too much early on.
Sorry but a marine dying has less of an impact than a skulk.
Average time in spawn queue is higher for aliens than marines.
You are losing your res nodes...try Nano and actually defending. UWE has said they did not like electrifying the nodes...nano is much better idea as its not permanent but reduces damage taken and allows your team to respond.
If your team cant respond then you have over-extended or they dont know how to follow orders/play.
Push without over extending and harrass cysts and harvesters non stop.
Marines can easily win enough as long as they know how to play (sorry but it really is a L2p issue which causes most marine losses).
This is not NS....you cant simply sit on 3 res nodes and expect to win through a turtle. Being a great shot will not win your team the game...these games are won with team work, ssadly something thats missing on most server (I often change servers until I find a group of people who know how to play.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You are losing your res nodes...try Nano and actually defending.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Are you actually reading the same thread? Try nano? You do realize that nano needs 2 command stations right? It's the early game where marines lose extractors which cost them the game. Later on when they have nano losing an extractor isn't as significant since you have a decent res flow by then.
It's the same reason why sentry changes are pointless since in the early game marines can't afford it.
Then after a couple seasons in ENSL (or CAL back in the day) and watching a lot of Archaea/nexzil/all-in/exertus (or 9L and Terror in ns1) and more demos, you will start to learn the mistake in your ways.
Fundamentally the main problem with why marines are bad in pubs, is because they play passive, and not aggressive. The best defense, is a good offense. If you aren't playing aggressive, it really is a l2p issue.
Trust me, no amount of turret ANYTHING, will change that. The sole way I can obviously tell you are new to the game, is because you MADE A THREAD ABOUT TURRETs.
suggesting sentry changes -1
Then after a couple seasons in ENSL (or CAL back in the day) and watching a lot of Archaea/nexzil/all-in/exertus (or 9L and Terror in ns1) and more demos, you will start to learn the mistake in your ways.
Fundamentally the main problem with why marines are bad in pubs, is because they play passive, and not aggressive. The best defense, is a good offense. If you aren't playing aggressive, it really is a l2p issue.
Trust me, no amount of turret ANYTHING, will change that. The sole way I can obviously tell you are new to the game, is because you MADE A THREAD ABOUT TURRETs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, it's more the fact Turrets exist and the completely suck. It seems like a waste of resources and design for UWE just to drop it and forget about them. Yes, turrets suck and I'd never want to build them unless I was literally out of things to buy and still full at 200/200, but that won't happen. However, I see turrets like a alien lifeform/ability. Should we get rid of Vortex/Turrets or maybe we should redesign them to be more useful. This discussion is talking about the later.
And that's it. Out of the Marines ENTIRE tech tree, the only thing you can rely on is Shotguns and Jetpacks. Does this not send off alarm bells for anyone else?
But I'd also would like to say that placement is a factor.
I'd say keep the limit at 3 sentries, but allow for the placement 3 batteries too (Maybe 2 or 3 res cheaper).
But why allow the placement of three batteries per room, (even at a reduced cost) your wasting even more res!
The thing is that what we have now is a defense that only has one POV, all clustered around that battery. Allowing multiple batteries will make for more effective placements. Sure your fire power isn't as concentrated, but with multiple POV's, there are less places that are out of their LOS for an alien. And they can defend themselves too, you could place them in such a way that in order to attack one (or a another target) your exposed to the other.
For instance, say you were able to put 3 sentries in bar, rather than cluster them all around one point, you put the in the 3 corners that aren't the door. So the one under the vent, normally the skulk (if he knew better) could just ease in and nom on top of it, but with multiple placements, he'd be exposed to the other two.
<!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->TD;LR:<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> Multiple batteries allow for sentries to cover each other, better strategic placement, and if one battery is destroyed, you don't lose all your static defenses.
[EDIT] And maybe add an researchable upgrade that increases the sentries' FOV (The blue semi-circle) and range.
What do you have to support aliens winning 'too much'?
What do you have to support aliens winning 'too much'?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
While I'm not as bad as a rookie, I'm still pretty new and I noticed it is harder to win as marines. As I've said earlier, I'm a newbie and can kill sentries with relative ease compared to a marine. Secondly it is easier to hit as an alien, just run in their general direction and bite while marines actually have to aim. But they have raged weapons! True, but most of them do their damage as a light continuous stream which you have to keep on target in order to do damage. While most aliens do high damage in spurts, so if you click the button (and it's a hit) the damage is is done, no need to trace your target to do full damage. That's why the shotgun is so effective in the right hands.
<!--quoteo(post=2063582:date=Jan 20 2013, 12:57 AM:name=ogz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ogz @ Jan 20 2013, 12:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063582"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i reckon give them the ability to build as many sentry batteries as they want but only 1 sentry per room<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What would that do? Other than powering sentries they have no effect, what your saying is a straight nerf to the marines;<b> in a thread about making them balanced with the aliens because they are winning too much. </b>
This is very easily solved by a team working together and an immediate investment in mines. A mine in a vent, behind an RT, around a corner... a mine in general is res well spent early game. One mine will generally kill a skulk assuming they aren't going too fast for the blast or have carapace, which won't be likely in the early portion of the game you're worried about. If your marines can manage to kill a skulk, and place their mines on RTs and vents, you won't be having these problems.
This is, indeed, a L2P issue. Less focus on sentries, more focus on getting your team to place mines on RTs, vents, and phase gates. Anything that is important should be protected. This will free up your marines to actually attack.
If I'm ever on marines, this is how I win games.
On top of that I have seen a lot of teams of Fades running in packs as well. 3 Fades with Carapace will destroy 6+ Marines no problem. Something needs to balance the equation out. Win loss ratio is not good right now, and the ratio is making less and less people want to play.
UWE is going to have to do something to get things back to a more playable w/l ratio before long.
While packing the map full of static defenses is certainly not the best way to play, many pub games end up this way and I think this hurts the game balance.
Assuming they are stock, that's two 0 res VS one 50 res x3, sounds fine. On top that, what sensible fade even with back up charges into pretty much an entire team unless it's the final base?