<!--quoteo(post=2063482:date=Jan 20 2013, 11:49 AM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Jan 20 2013, 11:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063482"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If aliens get egg-locked because they are dying too much, that's a skill problem not a game problem.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> But I thought each marine death sent shockwaves through their team...strikes me that marines dieing often NEVER leads to egg lock situation. Yet skulks deaths where meaningless, if the game creates a situation where aliens cant respawn as a result of dieing too often that would be a pretty damning down side to dieing that marines dont have.
<!--quoteo(post=2063482:date=Jan 20 2013, 11:49 AM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Jan 20 2013, 11:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063482"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Are you actually reading the same thread? Try nano? You do realize that nano needs 2 command stations right? It's the early game where marines lose extractors which cost them the game. Later on when they have nano losing an extractor isn't as significant since you have a decent res flow by then.
It's the same reason why sentry changes are pointless since in the early game marines can't afford it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Nano is fine, electrifying a node would also be 2nd chair constrained. Marines can be as mobile as aliens within 30-40 seconds by researching PG's, so a good team can easily hold 3-4 nodes across 2 tech points.
Issue early game is marines cant just expect to expand at will against a decent alien side. Dont expand beyond what you can defend and you wont lose so many RT's.
While you're at it fix medpack dropping. That way the defending marine can't really lose to the lone skulk if you invest 2-4 meds. Now they bounce of from jumping marines and get stuck on floors etc making medding mostly luck.
Wish med packs wouldn't disappear on me. I hear the health restored sound but doesn't do anything and I end up spamming 5 on him and a couple fall through the map or when you are quickly medding someone it would change to the give waypoint screen so instead of giving health you block their screen with a icon no-one cares about
<!--quoteo(post=2063610:date=Jan 20 2013, 05:26 AM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Jan 20 2013, 05:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063610"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But I thought each marine death sent shockwaves through their team...strikes me that marines dieing often NEVER leads to egg lock situation. Yet skulks deaths where meaningless, if the game creates a situation where aliens cant respawn as a result of dieing too often that would be a pretty damning down side to dieing that marines dont have.
Nano is fine, electrifying a node would also be 2nd chair constrained. Marines can be as mobile as aliens within 30-40 seconds by researching PG's, so a good team can easily hold 3-4 nodes across 2 tech points.
Issue early game is marines cant just expect to expand at will against a decent alien side. Dont expand beyond what you can defend and you wont lose so many RT's.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
??? Why would electrifying be linked to 2 chairs? Doesn't make any sense!
Electrify was a necessary evil in NS1 for pubs. I like it as an idea: at higher level play with marines who can shoot and coordinate properly, they won't need to spend the res on electrify and can boost upgrades faster - no change to the current state of play. For lower level play, especially when marines are dying a fair bit (more below), electrify would give them longer to react to res nodes being chomped. Especially if they used mines like they should be anyway!! If it were in my hands, I would playtest a few options, a couple of ideas follow: 1) Electrify as per NS1, but researched at comm chair or just without initial research (ie flat 10 res on an extractor (using the extractor cost here, original cost was 15 in NS1 but RT cost 15 too)). 2) A short term electrify boost - spend eg 5 res for 1-2 minutes of electrify on an object. Allows the commander to give temporary reprive to an extractor while his team responds to mop up skulks and replace mines. (NB numbers plucked from thin air without due thought, would test different options, eg 30s for 2 res etc etc)
In response to the problem of marines dying too much: this costs them map control. Dead marines are not on the map attacking aliens (or defending or building). Map control is the single biggest factor that marines should consider early game: denial of alien territory (especially res), and securing sufficient RTs to keep up with the tech war. The Khamm can still get map control with several dead aliens (egg lock aside, that's generally a niche win situation in pubs). The marines will lose if they cannot secure early map control and take the fight to the aliens.
Turrets need looking at because they suck but that's a different issue. They shouldn't need to be used as static defense for extractors. That was the whole reason that electrify was brought into vanilla NS1 from a mod, if I remember correctly.
But like it or not, there IS a L2P element to this: mines and mics are the marines' two most important weapons. Electrify could be a useful addition to support average marine teams, provided the level of cost is appropriate such that it's not overused (ie preferably not even needed at comp level). It should be a real option, not a requirement!
<!--quoteo(post=2063504:date=Jan 19 2013, 09:34 PM:name=GirTurkey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GirTurkey @ Jan 19 2013, 09:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063504"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->MrChoke, the problem is that most people really don't know how to play this game. I've been playing NS for 10 years, and I still learn new things. Once you move beyond the pub games that you are used to, you will realize quickly just how little you know about the game.
Then after a couple seasons in ENSL (or CAL back in the day) and watching a lot of Archaea/nexzil/all-in/exertus (or 9L and Terror in ns1) and more demos, you will start to learn the mistake in your ways.
Fundamentally the main problem with why marines are bad in pubs, is because they play passive, and not aggressive. The best defense, is a good offense. If you aren't playing aggressive, it really is a l2p issue.
Trust me, no amount of turret ANYTHING, will change that. The sole way I can obviously tell you are new to the game, is because you MADE A THREAD ABOUT TURRETs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
L2P, NO. You are wrong. Competitive aliens win 70%, public 60%. Do they not know how to play? Please find another thread to be wrong in.
Missed your last sentence until now. I am not new to this game. I am trying to fix it. What are you doing besides trolling the forum?
Ok, what do you suggest then? Give some ideas. People like me for example can b*tch and moan all day on how broke the game is. But I have started to consider how to fix it myself since UWE has not. I need to know what the best ideas are. I refuse to let this great game sit here sucking like it does right now and do nothing.
<!--quoteo(post=2063509:date=Jan 19 2013, 09:45 PM:name=Vigilantia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Vigilantia @ Jan 19 2013, 09:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063509"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well, it's more the fact Turrets exist and the completely suck. It seems like a waste of resources and design for UWE just to drop it and forget about them. Yes, turrets suck and I'd never want to build them unless I was literally out of things to buy and still full at 200/200, but that won't happen. However, I see turrets like a alien lifeform/ability. Should we get rid of Vortex/Turrets or maybe we should redesign them to be more useful. This discussion is talking about the later.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2063564:date=Jan 20 2013, 01:03 AM:name=KilledByDeath)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KilledByDeath @ Jan 20 2013, 01:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063564"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Maybe we should stop and think what do Marines have that is actually effective? Because the answer to that is Shotguns and Jetpacks.
And that's it. Out of the Marines ENTIRE tech tree, the only thing you can rely on is Shotguns and Jetpacks. Does this not send off alarm bells for anyone else?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think we should change any attributes of weapons or alien abilities, or even add any. There is a balance to this and its fragile. People that have played the game long enough, understand how to use the weapons and skills to their fullest. During actual combat where these attributes are used, it is balanced once you are good with them (not GODLIKE, just good). I think asking for changes here is a post from someone who doesn't see the big picture on how to really play effectively. I was just as guilty of thinking this for a while too. But then I started to get better and see how teamwork can make the balance work.
The problem lies in what aliens are doing to marine RT when the marines are spread too thin and cannot be there.
<!--quoteo(post=2063568:date=Jan 20 2013, 01:13 AM:name=WhiteWeasel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (WhiteWeasel @ Jan 20 2013, 01:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063568"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm an mostly alien player and I can tell you that turrets are crap. I am far, far more likely to die to a marine than a sentry. But I'd also would like to say that placement is a factor.
I'd say keep the limit at 3 sentries, but allow for the placement 3 batteries too (Maybe 2 or 3 res cheaper).
But why allow the placement of three batteries per room, (even at a reduced cost) your wasting even more res!
The thing is that what we have now is a defense that only has one POV, all clustered around that battery. Allowing multiple batteries will make for more effective placements. Sure your fire power isn't as concentrated, but with multiple POV's, there are less places that are out of their LOS for an alien. And they can defend themselves too, you could place them in such a way that in order to attack one (or a another target) your exposed to the other.
For instance, say you were able to put 3 sentries in bar, rather than cluster them all around one point, you put the in the 3 corners that aren't the door. So the one under the vent, normally the skulk (if he knew better) could just ease in and nom on top of it, but with multiple placements, he'd be exposed to the other two.
<!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->TD;LR:<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> Multiple batteries allow for sentries to cover each other, better strategic placement, and if one battery is destroyed, you don't lose all your static defenses.
[EDIT] And maybe add an researchable upgrade that increases the sentries' FOV (The blue semi-circle) and range.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Here's the problem - Marines have <b>completely screwed</b> scaling with skill. And also the fact that many servers die when marines win.
I can say as a fact with the people I usually play with, one of us as a marine and the other as commander is enough to carry a 95% marine win rate in basically any pub (regardless of player count).
Why?
1.) The vast majority of commanders do <b>awful</b> strats in pubs.
- Upgrades and Mines should be the two biggest priorities in the <b>pub</b> context where many marines aren't great at shooting. Unless your team is the ultimate scum of the earth, it's doable to get armor 3 by 6:30-7 minutes in most games. If your pub commander can get the combination of mines in every vital area + high armor marines, it's enough to give even top level aliens serious, serious problems. It's frustrating as crap for the alien team.
Unfortunately, your bad pub commanders are going to do things like rushing turrets/grenade launchers, and your average pub commanders don't realize that ultra fast phase gates <b>do not win pubs</b> because pubs != comp for effective strategy. You need quick phase gates in a comp setting to deal with highly coordinated alien attacks from high level aliens. That's not an issue in pubs, and as a result fast armor is <b>far</b> superior.
2.) One good marine is easily equivalent to 5-6 bad alien players.
- The skill scaling in the game is horrendous in pubs. If you have a single player with high level FPS experience on your team, that player can literally carry his team to victory <b>even with</b> a bad commander in many games. Watching a high level player murder 5 skulks within 15 seconds with a shotgun is common. Watching two good player blow up 10 skulks over a period of 20 seconds as they rush to egg camp is also common.
3.) Aliens rage quit when marines win
- Fighting against good marines and good marine tactics isn't the most fun in the world. Trying to kill marines with badly scaling skulks, as they dance in a minefield + having to potentially deal with a good marine who instantly kills you isn't much fun. Which is why clearing out servers as Marine is frequent for all but the most popular servers.
There's no easy fix to the problems NS2 has in this regard either. The game really needs a complete overhaul of fundamental mechanics to be a game that has good balance at low/medium/high skill levels.
<!--quoteo(post=2063582:date=Jan 20 2013, 01:57 AM:name=ogz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ogz @ Jan 20 2013, 01:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063582"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i reckon give them the ability to build as many sentry batteries as they want but only 1 sentry per room<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think we would want to increase the sentries batteries per room beyond 2. There is a balance in sentries too, someone else said it. On one end sentries are USELESS..... on the other, they are ANNOYING. Most people agree they are far closer to useless right now. More than 2 batteries and I think we go too far the other way.
<!--quoteo(post=2063589:date=Jan 20 2013, 02:21 AM:name=Timarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Timarius @ Jan 20 2013, 02:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063589"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So, let's step away from sentries for a moment (which do need some kind of defense against bile bomb to make them scale into late-game [shoot the bile projectiles?]) and talk about the real problem you're having. Marines can't seem to hold their res nodes early game.
This is very easily solved by a team working together and an immediate investment in mines. A mine in a vent, behind an RT, around a corner... a mine in general is res well spent early game. One mine will generally kill a skulk assuming they aren't going too fast for the blast or have carapace, which won't be likely in the early portion of the game you're worried about. If your marines can manage to kill a skulk, and place their mines on RTs and vents, you won't be having these problems.
This is, indeed, a L2P issue. Less focus on sentries, more focus on getting your team to place mines on RTs, vents, and phase gates. Anything that is important should be protected. This will free up your marines to actually attack.
If I'm ever on marines, this is how I win games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How many times to have to fight this??? I asked for this post to not have any L2P answers. Make another thread saying how you think you are right, but I don't and NEVER will.
I will post it ONE MORE TIME. NSStats.org shows aliens win in competeive play, 70% of the time. What does that do to your L2P idea?
<!--quoteo(post=2063594:date=Jan 20 2013, 02:38 AM:name=JediPhreaK)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JediPhreaK @ Jan 20 2013, 02:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063594"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Right now marines is becoming very non fun to play. 3 skulks running in a pack can usually kill an extractor before marines can respond early game and usually kill anything less than 3-4 marines unless the marines are excellent marksman.
On top of that I have seen a lot of teams of Fades running in packs as well. 3 Fades with Carapace will destroy 6+ Marines no problem. Something needs to balance the equation out. Win loss ratio is not good right now, and the ratio is making less and less people want to play.
UWE is going to have to do something to get things back to a more playable w/l ratio before long.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Having a bunch of Fades and mairnes trying to beat them with non-upgraded weapons and armor and no jet packs yet, its game over. But don't just look at the what you see happening, ask why did it happen? It is because marines fell behind on RT. It is killing game after game after game for marines.
<!--quoteo(post=2063686:date=Jan 20 2013, 02:30 PM:name=JAMESEARLJONOS)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JAMESEARLJONOS @ Jan 20 2013, 02:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063686"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Here's the problem - Marines have <b>completely screwed</b> scaling with skill.
2.) One good marine is easily equivalent to 5-6 bad alien players.
3.) Aliens rage quit when marines win<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Number 3 is only true because when marines win, they really win! And that's because of point two and scaling as you said. Marines seem to either be meh or insanely good, there's no apparent middle ground in pubs.
<!--quoteo(post=2063686:date=Jan 20 2013, 02:30 PM:name=JAMESEARLJONOS)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JAMESEARLJONOS @ Jan 20 2013, 02:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063686"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There's no easy fix to the problems NS2 has in this regard either. The game really needs a complete overhaul of fundamental mechanics to be a game that has good balance at low/medium/high skill levels.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd hope someone can be clever enough to fix it without a complete overhaul.
<!--quoteo(post=2063610:date=Jan 20 2013, 05:26 AM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Jan 20 2013, 05:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063610"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But I thought each marine death sent shockwaves through their team...strikes me that marines dieing often NEVER leads to egg lock situation. Yet skulks deaths where meaningless, if the game creates a situation where aliens cant respawn as a result of dieing too often that would be a pretty damning down side to dieing that marines dont have.
Nano is fine, electrifying a node would also be 2nd chair constrained. Marines can be as mobile as aliens within 30-40 seconds by researching PG's, so a good team can easily hold 3-4 nodes across 2 tech points.
Issue early game is marines cant just expect to expand at will against a decent alien side. Dont expand beyond what you can defend and you wont lose so many RT's.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This argument is flawed. I agree marines sohuld only expand to what they can hold but they MUST STOP the aliens from getting the rest of the RT on the map. If they do not, the aleins come in with Onos and Fades and the marines are not far enough in tech to deal with it. Its how 90% of all marine loses end IMO.
NANOSHIELDS..... how about being able to nanoshield extractors without a 2nd comm chair?
Electrifying extractors sounds good to me but that is too big a change for a modder to make IMO. If UWE wants to do it, awesome.
Nanaoshields however are already in the game. Marines are losing early game because they cannot hold RT. Nanoshields do nothing to help this because you need a 2nd chair. Often marines are already too far behind and most likely lost the game by the the time they put up the 2nd chair. The alien team is minutes away from Fades and Onos and marines just don't know it.
I don't want to make nanoshields OP either. So how about we have them help just extractors early game? It's yet another thing the marine commander has to think about but doing so will buy the marine team some time to get back there and protect the extractor. And this change is not increasing dumb static AI defense to solve it. If the marine team chooses to continue to ignore extractors going down even after they were nanoshielded, then they might lose.
<!--quoteo(post=2063689:date=Jan 20 2013, 07:36 AM:name=MrChoke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MrChoke @ Jan 20 2013, 07:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063689"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How many times to have to fight this??? I asked for this post to not have any L2P answers. Make another thread saying how you think you are right, but I don't and NEVER will.
I will post it ONE MORE TIME. NSStats.org shows aliens win in competeive play, 70% of the time. What does that do to your L2P idea?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I gave you two suggestions to fix your problem, but you seem to have ignored them, so let me highlight them in bold for you.
<b>1) Buy mines and use them to cover everything.</b>
<b>2) Give sentries the ability to shoot bile bombs out of the air with a small travel time, so a Gorge can't snipe the nest with bile bombs.</b> This would be similar to denying a grenade launcher via whip. However, Lerks would still spike down the sentry battery. If Gorges have to hug a sentry nest to destroy it, suddenly your investment in turrets is worthwhile.
<!--quoteo(post=2063504:date=Jan 20 2013, 03:34 AM:name=GirTurkey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GirTurkey @ Jan 20 2013, 03:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063504"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The sole way I can obviously tell you are new to the game, is because you MADE A THREAD ABOUT TURRETs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Na, don't agree here.
1) Turrents are a feature in NS2. 2) Turrets are a waste of ressources. -> Turrets are a feature that does NOT WORK. --> Feature which are broken needs to be fixed or get rid of.
So the issue of obvious, that SOMETHING has to be done about turrets. Either fix them or kick them out all together. I think that's the whole point. Marines have an option, namely turrets, that does not add anything to the game and is a mere res sink. When it's broken you either fix it or get rid of it. Merely talking about turrets in terms of a broken feature hardly tells you anything about the player, especially not whether he's new to the game or not. I agree that marines do not loose because of the LACK OF turrets but because they build some in the first place! Still, they're currently part of the game so something has to be done about them in one way or another. It has nothing to do with the reason why marines loose, though. Then again, either they get some love so they can do at least something useful, researchable abilities or whatsoever or you could just kick em' once and for all.
<!--quoteo(post=2063704:date=Jan 20 2013, 10:21 AM:name=Timarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Timarius @ Jan 20 2013, 10:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063704"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I gave you two suggestions to fix your problem, but you seem to have ignored them, so let me highlight them in bold for you.
<b>1) Buy mines and use them to cover everything.</b>
<b>2) Give sentries the ability to shoot bile bombs out of the air with a small travel time, so a Gorge can't snipe the nest with bile bombs.</b> This would be similar to denying a grenade launcher via whip. However, Lerks would still spike down the sentry battery. If Gorges have to hug a sentry nest to destroy it, suddenly your investment in turrets is worthwhile.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) I don't know how well that will work. Can't a gorge blow up a mine with one shot? Maybe there is a argument that mines are not used as often as they should. But why haven't enough people figured it out to help the marines win more? This is an L2P post. NO.
2) Ok, not a bad idea. Do you think someone can mod it? No way I could.
<!--quoteo(post=2063679:date=Jan 20 2013, 11:06 AM:name=MrChoke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MrChoke @ Jan 20 2013, 11:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063679"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ok, what do you suggest then? Give some ideas. People like me for example can b*tch and moan all day on how broke the game is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I agree that the win rate is skewed towards aliens, but sentry changes aren't the answer. For every single point of resources marines spend on sentries it's another point they are contributing to a loss.
You need to remember that in NS2 the aliens will win by DEFAULT, since all it takes is a few people to save for Onos. Marines don't have the luxury of saving for a dual-mini EXO - they depend on the proto lab to buy it. For the aliens there is no such restriction. Be it one hive of four, any alien with 75 res can buy himself an Onos. Once you get a few guys with Onos, it's all over if you haven't been matching them for tech.
This means marines aren't just fighting for territory, they are fighting against time. They need to tech up before the alien's Onos parade comes to their base and destroys them.
So if you have to spend 25 res to protect a 10 res extractor, you are just digging yourself a HUGE hole. Extractors will provide 1 team resource point every 6 seconds. That means it takes a minute for the extractor to 'pay for itself'. If you add a sentry nest you have just extended that by another 2 and a half minutes, to 3 and a half minutes of game time just paying off your costs. In many cases - because of how craptastic sentries are - you can't even keep the sentry nest up that long to protect the extractor.
Sentries are garbage right now. I do not argue this in the slightest. They have too short a range from the battery, they have too narrow a field of view, they can't shoot behind themselves, and they depend on a sentry battery that is easily destroyed from range. The entire sentry mechanic is designed to fail.
However, even if you fix all that, you *STILL* can't afford to drop sentry farms at every res node. I may occasionally suggest a sentry farm at an extractor which gets killed all the time (like East Wing or Skylights) but otherwise it is a waste of res. For the cost of a sentry nest you could have an armor/weapon upgrade.
The developers will fix the imbalance in time, and I think they will end up electrifying extractors. Yeah they may not want to, but what else is there to do in the early game? If you can't hold your early extractors, your game is lost. Furthermore, while it's all fine and good to say you have to defend your stuff, it gets really boring to be playing whack-a-mole with skulks at extractors all game. Frankly I'd rather sit with a welder out pressing M1 - it's far less tedious.
I know sentries *SEEM* like the natural solution, and if they were FREE they would be. However, since they are not they are just too expensive to justify the cost. Even if you doubled the damage, extended the range, took away the need for a battery and gave them 360 degree coverage - they are STILL too expensive to use in the early game where it matters.
If the underlying issue here is that marines are losing too many RTs and thus are losing the res battle, how about attempting a simple change that lets them do better with fewer towers? Maybe something as simple as giving marines more res per node each tick would help skew the balance back in their direction.
<!--quoteo(post=2063686:date=Jan 20 2013, 09:30 AM:name=JAMESEARLJONOS)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JAMESEARLJONOS @ Jan 20 2013, 09:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063686"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Here's the problem - Marines have <b>completely screwed</b> scaling with skill. And also the fact that many servers die when marines win.
I can say as a fact with the people I usually play with, one of us as a marine and the other as commander is enough to carry a 95% marine win rate in basically any pub (regardless of player count).
Why?
1.) The vast majority of commanders do <b>awful</b> strats in pubs.
- Upgrades and Mines should be the two biggest priorities in the <b>pub</b> context where many marines aren't great at shooting. Unless your team is the ultimate scum of the earth, it's doable to get armor 3 by 6:30-7 minutes in most games. If your pub commander can get the combination of mines in every vital area + high armor marines, it's enough to give even top level aliens serious, serious problems. It's frustrating as crap for the alien team.
Unfortunately, your bad pub commanders are going to do things like rushing turrets/grenade launchers, and your average pub commanders don't realize that ultra fast phase gates <b>do not win pubs</b> because pubs != comp for effective strategy. You need quick phase gates in a comp setting to deal with highly coordinated alien attacks from high level aliens. That's not an issue in pubs, and as a result fast armor is <b>far</b> superior.
2.) One good marine is easily equivalent to 5-6 bad alien players.
- The skill scaling in the game is horrendous in pubs. If you have a single player with high level FPS experience on your team, that player can literally carry his team to victory <b>even with</b> a bad commander in many games. Watching a high level player murder 5 skulks within 15 seconds with a shotgun is common. Watching two good player blow up 10 skulks over a period of 20 seconds as they rush to egg camp is also common.
3.) Aliens rage quit when marines win
- Fighting against good marines and good marine tactics isn't the most fun in the world. Trying to kill marines with badly scaling skulks, as they dance in a minefield + having to potentially deal with a good marine who instantly kills you isn't much fun. Which is why clearing out servers as Marine is frequent for all but the most popular servers.
There's no easy fix to the problems NS2 has in this regard either. The game really needs a complete overhaul of fundamental mechanics to be a game that has good balance at low/medium/high skill levels.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with a lot of what has been said here. The return on skill for the alien and marine teams is very different. Winning fights as marines against the average alien demands a level of twitch skill that is beyond the capabilities of the average gamer. Better game performance will help this a bit, but ultimately I think something will have to be done to allow marines to hit evasive aliens more reliably. Whether that is adjustment of marine weapons, of alien movement, or even of hitboxes I cannot say, but it must be something that improves average marine's hit rate without making people with exceptional target tracking unstoppable.
When making balance changes, the single most important thing is to understand WHY the imbalance exists. The current imbalance has nothing to do with marines not being good enough at defense - marines are excellent at defense, in fact that's a bit of a problem in and of itself right now. Making marines better able to turtle will not help them to win, it will simply drag out their defeat that much longer.
<!--quoteo(post=2063737:date=Jan 20 2013, 11:33 AM:name=Evil.Iguana)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Evil.Iguana @ Jan 20 2013, 11:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063737"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If the underlying issue here is that marines are losing too many RTs and thus are losing the res battle, how about attempting a simple change that lets them do better with fewer towers? Maybe something as simple as giving marines more res per node each tick would help skew the balance back in their direction.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is an interesting idea. Though it would be like changing a macro-dial of the delicate balance that we are trying to achieve. It will be the buff that just keeps on giving. Sounds too difficult to re-balance the game. You start changing this and you start to question the res cost of everything. Too scary....
<!--quoteo(post=2063737:date=Jan 20 2013, 01:33 PM:name=Evil.Iguana)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Evil.Iguana @ Jan 20 2013, 01:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063737"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If the underlying issue here is that marines are losing too many RTs and thus are losing the res battle, how about attempting a simple change that lets them do better with fewer towers? Maybe something as simple as giving marines more res per node each tick would help skew the balance back in their direction.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Problem with that is that if you have a marine team that gets 'too many' res towers they will be rolling in res. Balance goes out the window.
Marines don't need more res, they just need to be able to protect what they have. Right now they can't do that in a meaningful way.
Furthermore, I'd really like to steer the game away from becoming "Extractor Warz!" where all you do all game is battle over extractors. The extractors should be a peripheral aspect, not a central focus.
<!--quoteo(post=2063742:date=Jan 20 2013, 11:40 AM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Jan 20 2013, 11:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063742"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->When making balance changes, the single most important thing is to understand WHY the imbalance exists. The current imbalance has nothing to do with marines not being good enough at defense - marines are excellent at defense, in fact that's a bit of a problem in and of itself right now. Making marines better able to turtle will not help them to win, it will simply drag out their defeat that much longer.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree, they can defend what they have fine, hence we should not make any weapons or abilities of the marine players any stronger. We need them to not have to turtle and babysit their extractors. If they can get out of the base more often and harrass the alien RT, that is the way I think we need to go.
I agree sentries are not by any means the best long term answer to this problem. Only UWE can solve this long term. If they solve by using some great ideas like electrfying extractors or adding any other new concept to the game, great. But right now IMO, UWE has failed to step up to the plate with any change that moved toward solving this problem. I looked to build 236 and it wasn't there. So I want to mod a fix. It quite literally may be throw away code if and when UWE finally balances the game. But until they can at least post somewhere saying, "expect further balance improvements within 2 weeks" or something like that, it may be 2 years for all I know.
I spent the last couple of days looking through the game's LUA code. I already see where "number of sentries per battery", "sentry health", "sentry cost", etc... are defined. This is easily moddable. I still need to find number of sentry batteries per room though. Ugh, if I can't find that.
I also tried to find a way to change nanoshields to not require a 2nd chair for extractors. I can't find that anywhere. Changing it may not be moddable.
<!--quoteo(post=2063234:date=Jan 19 2013, 09:47 AM:name=DamDSx)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DamDSx @ Jan 19 2013, 09:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063234"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->bring back electrify. best feature for marines taken away.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah actually, this would limit rt harassment to higher life forms or skulls with Regen (usually second hive). This would be at a high cost to the rines of course...
I like it, simple, easy to implement, and adresses the op's issues
<!--quoteo(post=2063709:date=Jan 20 2013, 07:33 AM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Jan 20 2013, 07:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063709"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sentries are garbage right now. I do not argue this in the slightest. They have too short a range from the battery, they have too narrow a field of view, they can't shoot behind themselves, and they depend on a sentry battery that is easily destroyed from range. The entire sentry mechanic is designed to fail.
I know sentries *SEEM* like the natural solution, and if they were FREE they would be. However, since they are not they are just too expensive to justify the cost. Even if you doubled the damage, extended the range, took away the need for a battery and gave them 360 degree coverage - they are STILL too expensive to use in the early game where it matters.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, that sounds really good... You could basically plop down 2 sentries at a res location (10 res) to protect it in the really early game. The extended range would deal with the problem of getting sniped in big rooms, 360 degree fixes single skulk soloing issues, and the double damage could kill a skulk in a 1:1 battle. 10 res is still 1 minute to make up for the costs (the same as if you'd lost the RT once already), but it might be worth it if it's an RT where your marines walk by occasionally. Hell, research mines early and have one marine put down a pack of mines in the room and you have a mini fortress till Lerks pop up.
Comments
But I thought each marine death sent shockwaves through their team...strikes me that marines dieing often NEVER leads to egg lock situation.
Yet skulks deaths where meaningless, if the game creates a situation where aliens cant respawn as a result of dieing too often that would be a pretty damning down side to dieing that marines dont have.
<!--quoteo(post=2063482:date=Jan 20 2013, 11:49 AM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Jan 20 2013, 11:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063482"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Are you actually reading the same thread? Try nano? You do realize that nano needs 2 command stations right? It's the early game where marines lose extractors which cost them the game. Later on when they have nano losing an extractor isn't as significant since you have a decent res flow by then.
It's the same reason why sentry changes are pointless since in the early game marines can't afford it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nano is fine, electrifying a node would also be 2nd chair constrained.
Marines can be as mobile as aliens within 30-40 seconds by researching PG's, so a good team can easily hold 3-4 nodes across 2 tech points.
Issue early game is marines cant just expect to expand at will against a decent alien side.
Dont expand beyond what you can defend and you wont lose so many RT's.
Yet skulks deaths where meaningless, if the game creates a situation where aliens cant respawn as a result of dieing too often that would be a pretty damning down side to dieing that marines dont have.
Nano is fine, electrifying a node would also be 2nd chair constrained.
Marines can be as mobile as aliens within 30-40 seconds by researching PG's, so a good team can easily hold 3-4 nodes across 2 tech points.
Issue early game is marines cant just expect to expand at will against a decent alien side.
Dont expand beyond what you can defend and you wont lose so many RT's.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
???
Why would electrifying be linked to 2 chairs? Doesn't make any sense!
Electrify was a necessary evil in NS1 for pubs. I like it as an idea: at higher level play with marines who can shoot and coordinate properly, they won't need to spend the res on electrify and can boost upgrades faster - no change to the current state of play. For lower level play, especially when marines are dying a fair bit (more below), electrify would give them longer to react to res nodes being chomped. Especially if they used mines like they should be anyway!!
If it were in my hands, I would playtest a few options, a couple of ideas follow:
1) Electrify as per NS1, but researched at comm chair or just without initial research (ie flat 10 res on an extractor (using the extractor cost here, original cost was 15 in NS1 but RT cost 15 too)).
2) A short term electrify boost - spend eg 5 res for 1-2 minutes of electrify on an object. Allows the commander to give temporary reprive to an extractor while his team responds to mop up skulks and replace mines. (NB numbers plucked from thin air without due thought, would test different options, eg 30s for 2 res etc etc)
In response to the problem of marines dying too much: this costs them map control. Dead marines are not on the map attacking aliens (or defending or building). Map control is the single biggest factor that marines should consider early game: denial of alien territory (especially res), and securing sufficient RTs to keep up with the tech war.
The Khamm can still get map control with several dead aliens (egg lock aside, that's generally a niche win situation in pubs). The marines will lose if they cannot secure early map control and take the fight to the aliens.
Turrets need looking at because they suck but that's a different issue. They shouldn't need to be used as static defense for extractors. That was the whole reason that electrify was brought into vanilla NS1 from a mod, if I remember correctly.
But like it or not, there IS a L2P element to this: mines and mics are the marines' two most important weapons. Electrify could be a useful addition to support average marine teams, provided the level of cost is appropriate such that it's not overused (ie preferably not even needed at comp level). It should be a real option, not a requirement!
Then after a couple seasons in ENSL (or CAL back in the day) and watching a lot of Archaea/nexzil/all-in/exertus (or 9L and Terror in ns1) and more demos, you will start to learn the mistake in your ways.
Fundamentally the main problem with why marines are bad in pubs, is because they play passive, and not aggressive. The best defense, is a good offense. If you aren't playing aggressive, it really is a l2p issue.
Trust me, no amount of turret ANYTHING, will change that. The sole way I can obviously tell you are new to the game, is because you MADE A THREAD ABOUT TURRETs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
L2P, NO. You are wrong. Competitive aliens win 70%, public 60%. Do they not know how to play? Please find another thread to be wrong in.
Missed your last sentence until now. I am not new to this game. I am trying to fix it. What are you doing besides trolling the forum?
suggesting sentry changes -1<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok, what do you suggest then? Give some ideas. People like me for example can b*tch and moan all day on how broke the game is. But I have started to consider how to fix it myself since UWE has not. I need to know what the best ideas are. I refuse to let this great game sit here sucking like it does right now and do nothing.
+1 on this post
And that's it. Out of the Marines ENTIRE tech tree, the only thing you can rely on is Shotguns and Jetpacks. Does this not send off alarm bells for anyone else?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think we should change any attributes of weapons or alien abilities, or even add any. There is a balance to this and its fragile. People that have played the game long enough, understand how to use the weapons and skills to their fullest. During actual combat where these attributes are used, it is balanced once you are good with them (not GODLIKE, just good). I think asking for changes here is a post from someone who doesn't see the big picture on how to really play effectively. I was just as guilty of thinking this for a while too. But then I started to get better and see how teamwork can make the balance work.
The problem lies in what aliens are doing to marine RT when the marines are spread too thin and cannot be there.
But I'd also would like to say that placement is a factor.
I'd say keep the limit at 3 sentries, but allow for the placement 3 batteries too (Maybe 2 or 3 res cheaper).
But why allow the placement of three batteries per room, (even at a reduced cost) your wasting even more res!
The thing is that what we have now is a defense that only has one POV, all clustered around that battery. Allowing multiple batteries will make for more effective placements. Sure your fire power isn't as concentrated, but with multiple POV's, there are less places that are out of their LOS for an alien. And they can defend themselves too, you could place them in such a way that in order to attack one (or a another target) your exposed to the other.
For instance, say you were able to put 3 sentries in bar, rather than cluster them all around one point, you put the in the 3 corners that aren't the door. So the one under the vent, normally the skulk (if he knew better) could just ease in and nom on top of it, but with multiple placements, he'd be exposed to the other two.
<!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->TD;LR:<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> Multiple batteries allow for sentries to cover each other, better strategic placement, and if one battery is destroyed, you don't lose all your static defenses.
[EDIT] And maybe add an researchable upgrade that increases the sentries' FOV (The blue semi-circle) and range.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1 to this post.
I can say as a fact with the people I usually play with, one of us as a marine and the other as commander is enough to carry a 95% marine win rate in basically any pub (regardless of player count).
Why?
1.) The vast majority of commanders do <b>awful</b> strats in pubs.
- Upgrades and Mines should be the two biggest priorities in the <b>pub</b> context where many marines aren't great at shooting. Unless your team is the ultimate scum of the earth, it's doable to get armor 3 by 6:30-7 minutes in most games. If your pub commander can get the combination of mines in every vital area + high armor marines, it's enough to give even top level aliens serious, serious problems. It's frustrating as crap for the alien team.
Unfortunately, your bad pub commanders are going to do things like rushing turrets/grenade launchers, and your average pub commanders don't realize that ultra fast phase gates <b>do not win pubs</b> because pubs != comp for effective strategy. You need quick phase gates in a comp setting to deal with highly coordinated alien attacks from high level aliens. That's not an issue in pubs, and as a result fast armor is <b>far</b> superior.
2.) One good marine is easily equivalent to 5-6 bad alien players.
- The skill scaling in the game is horrendous in pubs. If you have a single player with high level FPS experience on your team, that player can literally carry his team to victory <b>even with</b> a bad commander in many games. Watching a high level player murder 5 skulks within 15 seconds with a shotgun is common. Watching two good player blow up 10 skulks over a period of 20 seconds as they rush to egg camp is also common.
3.) Aliens rage quit when marines win
- Fighting against good marines and good marine tactics isn't the most fun in the world. Trying to kill marines with badly scaling skulks, as they dance in a minefield + having to potentially deal with a good marine who instantly kills you isn't much fun. Which is why clearing out servers as Marine is frequent for all but the most popular servers.
There's no easy fix to the problems NS2 has in this regard either. The game really needs a complete overhaul of fundamental mechanics to be a game that has good balance at low/medium/high skill levels.
I don't think we would want to increase the sentries batteries per room beyond 2. There is a balance in sentries too, someone else said it. On one end sentries are USELESS..... on the other, they are ANNOYING. Most people agree they are far closer to useless right now. More than 2 batteries and I think we go too far the other way.
This is very easily solved by a team working together and an immediate investment in mines. A mine in a vent, behind an RT, around a corner... a mine in general is res well spent early game. One mine will generally kill a skulk assuming they aren't going too fast for the blast or have carapace, which won't be likely in the early portion of the game you're worried about. If your marines can manage to kill a skulk, and place their mines on RTs and vents, you won't be having these problems.
This is, indeed, a L2P issue. Less focus on sentries, more focus on getting your team to place mines on RTs, vents, and phase gates. Anything that is important should be protected. This will free up your marines to actually attack.
If I'm ever on marines, this is how I win games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How many times to have to fight this??? I asked for this post to not have any L2P answers. Make another thread saying how you think you are right, but I don't and NEVER will.
I will post it ONE MORE TIME. NSStats.org shows aliens win in competeive play, 70% of the time. What does that do to your L2P idea?
On top of that I have seen a lot of teams of Fades running in packs as well. 3 Fades with Carapace will destroy 6+ Marines no problem. Something needs to balance the equation out. Win loss ratio is not good right now, and the ratio is making less and less people want to play.
UWE is going to have to do something to get things back to a more playable w/l ratio before long.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Having a bunch of Fades and mairnes trying to beat them with non-upgraded weapons and armor and no jet packs yet, its game over. But don't just look at the what you see happening, ask why did it happen? It is because marines fell behind on RT. It is killing game after game after game for marines.
2.) One good marine is easily equivalent to 5-6 bad alien players.
3.) Aliens rage quit when marines win<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Number 3 is only true because when marines win, they really win! And that's because of point two and scaling as you said. Marines seem to either be meh or insanely good, there's no apparent middle ground in pubs.
<!--quoteo(post=2063686:date=Jan 20 2013, 02:30 PM:name=JAMESEARLJONOS)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JAMESEARLJONOS @ Jan 20 2013, 02:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063686"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There's no easy fix to the problems NS2 has in this regard either. The game really needs a complete overhaul of fundamental mechanics to be a game that has good balance at low/medium/high skill levels.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd hope someone can be clever enough to fix it without a complete overhaul.
Yet skulks deaths where meaningless, if the game creates a situation where aliens cant respawn as a result of dieing too often that would be a pretty damning down side to dieing that marines dont have.
Nano is fine, electrifying a node would also be 2nd chair constrained.
Marines can be as mobile as aliens within 30-40 seconds by researching PG's, so a good team can easily hold 3-4 nodes across 2 tech points.
Issue early game is marines cant just expect to expand at will against a decent alien side.
Dont expand beyond what you can defend and you wont lose so many RT's.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This argument is flawed. I agree marines sohuld only expand to what they can hold but they MUST STOP the aliens from getting the rest of the RT on the map. If they do not, the aleins come in with Onos and Fades and the marines are not far enough in tech to deal with it. Its how 90% of all marine loses end IMO.
This guy nailed it 100% IMHO.
Electrifying extractors sounds good to me but that is too big a change for a modder to make IMO. If UWE wants to do it, awesome.
Nanaoshields however are already in the game. Marines are losing early game because they cannot hold RT. Nanoshields do nothing to help this because you need a 2nd chair. Often marines are already too far behind and most likely lost the game by the the time they put up the 2nd chair. The alien team is minutes away from Fades and Onos and marines just don't know it.
I don't want to make nanoshields OP either. So how about we have them help just extractors early game? It's yet another thing the marine commander has to think about but doing so will buy the marine team some time to get back there and protect the extractor. And this change is not increasing dumb static AI defense to solve it. If the marine team chooses to continue to ignore extractors going down even after they were nanoshielded, then they might lose.
I will post it ONE MORE TIME. NSStats.org shows aliens win in competeive play, 70% of the time. What does that do to your L2P idea?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I gave you two suggestions to fix your problem, but you seem to have ignored them, so let me highlight them in bold for you.
<b>1) Buy mines and use them to cover everything.</b>
<b>2) Give sentries the ability to shoot bile bombs out of the air with a small travel time, so a Gorge can't snipe the nest with bile bombs.</b> This would be similar to denying a grenade launcher via whip. However, Lerks would still spike down the sentry battery. If Gorges have to hug a sentry nest to destroy it, suddenly your investment in turrets is worthwhile.
Na, don't agree here.
1) Turrents are a feature in NS2.
2) Turrets are a waste of ressources.
-> Turrets are a feature that does NOT WORK.
--> Feature which are broken needs to be fixed or get rid of.
So the issue of obvious, that SOMETHING has to be done about turrets. Either fix them or kick them out all together. I think that's the whole point. Marines have an option, namely turrets, that does not add anything to the game and is a mere res sink. When it's broken you either fix it or get rid of it. Merely talking about turrets in terms of a broken feature hardly tells you anything about the player, especially not whether he's new to the game or not. I agree that marines do not loose because of the LACK OF turrets but because they build some in the first place! Still, they're currently part of the game so something has to be done about them in one way or another. It has nothing to do with the reason why marines loose, though. Then again, either they get some love so they can do at least something useful, researchable abilities or whatsoever or you could just kick em' once and for all.
<b>1) Buy mines and use them to cover everything.</b>
<b>2) Give sentries the ability to shoot bile bombs out of the air with a small travel time, so a Gorge can't snipe the nest with bile bombs.</b> This would be similar to denying a grenade launcher via whip. However, Lerks would still spike down the sentry battery. If Gorges have to hug a sentry nest to destroy it, suddenly your investment in turrets is worthwhile.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) I don't know how well that will work. Can't a gorge blow up a mine with one shot? Maybe there is a argument that mines are not used as often as they should. But why haven't enough people figured it out to help the marines win more? This is an L2P post. NO.
2) Ok, not a bad idea. Do you think someone can mod it? No way I could.
You need to remember that in NS2 the aliens will win by DEFAULT, since all it takes is a few people to save for Onos. Marines don't have the luxury of saving for a dual-mini EXO - they depend on the proto lab to buy it. For the aliens there is no such restriction. Be it one hive of four, any alien with 75 res can buy himself an Onos. Once you get a few guys with Onos, it's all over if you haven't been matching them for tech.
This means marines aren't just fighting for territory, they are fighting against time. They need to tech up before the alien's Onos parade comes to their base and destroys them.
So if you have to spend 25 res to protect a 10 res extractor, you are just digging yourself a HUGE hole. Extractors will provide 1 team resource point every 6 seconds. That means it takes a minute for the extractor to 'pay for itself'. If you add a sentry nest you have just extended that by another 2 and a half minutes, to 3 and a half minutes of game time just paying off your costs. In many cases - because of how craptastic sentries are - you can't even keep the sentry nest up that long to protect the extractor.
Sentries are garbage right now. I do not argue this in the slightest. They have too short a range from the battery, they have too narrow a field of view, they can't shoot behind themselves, and they depend on a sentry battery that is easily destroyed from range. The entire sentry mechanic is designed to fail.
However, even if you fix all that, you *STILL* can't afford to drop sentry farms at every res node. I may occasionally suggest a sentry farm at an extractor which gets killed all the time (like East Wing or Skylights) but otherwise it is a waste of res. For the cost of a sentry nest you could have an armor/weapon upgrade.
The developers will fix the imbalance in time, and I think they will end up electrifying extractors. Yeah they may not want to, but what else is there to do in the early game? If you can't hold your early extractors, your game is lost. Furthermore, while it's all fine and good to say you have to defend your stuff, it gets really boring to be playing whack-a-mole with skulks at extractors all game. Frankly I'd rather sit with a welder out pressing M1 - it's far less tedious.
I know sentries *SEEM* like the natural solution, and if they were FREE they would be. However, since they are not they are just too expensive to justify the cost. Even if you doubled the damage, extended the range, took away the need for a battery and gave them 360 degree coverage - they are STILL too expensive to use in the early game where it matters.
<!--quoteo(post=2063686:date=Jan 20 2013, 09:30 AM:name=JAMESEARLJONOS)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JAMESEARLJONOS @ Jan 20 2013, 09:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063686"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Here's the problem - Marines have <b>completely screwed</b> scaling with skill. And also the fact that many servers die when marines win.
I can say as a fact with the people I usually play with, one of us as a marine and the other as commander is enough to carry a 95% marine win rate in basically any pub (regardless of player count).
Why?
1.) The vast majority of commanders do <b>awful</b> strats in pubs.
- Upgrades and Mines should be the two biggest priorities in the <b>pub</b> context where many marines aren't great at shooting. Unless your team is the ultimate scum of the earth, it's doable to get armor 3 by 6:30-7 minutes in most games. If your pub commander can get the combination of mines in every vital area + high armor marines, it's enough to give even top level aliens serious, serious problems. It's frustrating as crap for the alien team.
Unfortunately, your bad pub commanders are going to do things like rushing turrets/grenade launchers, and your average pub commanders don't realize that ultra fast phase gates <b>do not win pubs</b> because pubs != comp for effective strategy. You need quick phase gates in a comp setting to deal with highly coordinated alien attacks from high level aliens. That's not an issue in pubs, and as a result fast armor is <b>far</b> superior.
2.) One good marine is easily equivalent to 5-6 bad alien players.
- The skill scaling in the game is horrendous in pubs. If you have a single player with high level FPS experience on your team, that player can literally carry his team to victory <b>even with</b> a bad commander in many games. Watching a high level player murder 5 skulks within 15 seconds with a shotgun is common. Watching two good player blow up 10 skulks over a period of 20 seconds as they rush to egg camp is also common.
3.) Aliens rage quit when marines win
- Fighting against good marines and good marine tactics isn't the most fun in the world. Trying to kill marines with badly scaling skulks, as they dance in a minefield + having to potentially deal with a good marine who instantly kills you isn't much fun. Which is why clearing out servers as Marine is frequent for all but the most popular servers.
There's no easy fix to the problems NS2 has in this regard either. The game really needs a complete overhaul of fundamental mechanics to be a game that has good balance at low/medium/high skill levels.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with a lot of what has been said here. The return on skill for the alien and marine teams is very different. Winning fights as marines against the average alien demands a level of twitch skill that is beyond the capabilities of the average gamer. Better game performance will help this a bit, but ultimately I think something will have to be done to allow marines to hit evasive aliens more reliably. Whether that is adjustment of marine weapons, of alien movement, or even of hitboxes I cannot say, but it must be something that improves average marine's hit rate without making people with exceptional target tracking unstoppable.
That is an interesting idea. Though it would be like changing a macro-dial of the delicate balance that we are trying to achieve. It will be the buff that just keeps on giving. Sounds too difficult to re-balance the game. You start changing this and you start to question the res cost of everything. Too scary....
Marines don't need more res, they just need to be able to protect what they have. Right now they can't do that in a meaningful way.
Furthermore, I'd really like to steer the game away from becoming "Extractor Warz!" where all you do all game is battle over extractors. The extractors should be a peripheral aspect, not a central focus.
I agree, they can defend what they have fine, hence we should not make any weapons or abilities of the marine players any stronger. We need them to not have to turtle and babysit their extractors. If they can get out of the base more often and harrass the alien RT, that is the way I think we need to go.
I agree sentries are not by any means the best long term answer to this problem. Only UWE can solve this long term. If they solve by using some great ideas like electrfying extractors or adding any other new concept to the game, great. But right now IMO, UWE has failed to step up to the plate with any change that moved toward solving this problem. I looked to build 236 and it wasn't there. So I want to mod a fix. It quite literally may be throw away code if and when UWE finally balances the game. But until they can at least post somewhere saying, "expect further balance improvements within 2 weeks" or something like that, it may be 2 years for all I know.
I spent the last couple of days looking through the game's LUA code. I already see where "number of sentries per battery", "sentry health", "sentry cost", etc... are defined. This is easily moddable. I still need to find number of sentry batteries per room though. Ugh, if I can't find that.
I also tried to find a way to change nanoshields to not require a 2nd chair for extractors. I can't find that anywhere. Changing it may not be moddable.
Yeah actually, this would limit rt harassment to higher life forms or skulls with Regen (usually second hive). This would be at a high cost to the rines of course...
I like it, simple, easy to implement, and adresses the op's issues
I know sentries *SEEM* like the natural solution, and if they were FREE they would be. However, since they are not they are just too expensive to justify the cost. Even if you doubled the damage, extended the range, took away the need for a battery and gave them 360 degree coverage - they are STILL too expensive to use in the early game where it matters.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, that sounds really good... You could basically plop down 2 sentries at a res location (10 res) to protect it in the really early game. The extended range would deal with the problem of getting sniped in big rooms, 360 degree fixes single skulk soloing issues, and the double damage could kill a skulk in a 1:1 battle. 10 res is still 1 minute to make up for the costs (the same as if you'd lost the RT once already), but it might be worth it if it's an RT where your marines walk by occasionally. Hell, research mines early and have one marine put down a pack of mines in the room and you have a mini fortress till Lerks pop up.