<!--quoteo(post=2064443:date=Jan 21 2013, 09:53 PM:name=Arkahm719)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arkahm719 @ Jan 21 2013, 09:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064443"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->ok so hes a comp player... he knows how to play comp 6v6 that really works out for the rest of us in the pubs. I know plenty about the game and play it well, been doing so since it was the first playable version. ive seen the game makes its changes the whole time.
just because you are a comp player doesnt mean anything either except you have to much free time on your hands, so dont try and use it like its some great title IAMKING
i was a comp player in tf2 years ago, and just because i was didnt make me a master of everything tf2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And NFL players are just strong dudes with too much time on their hands? What a preposterous statement. Comp players are better than the average player. It is also fair to assume they have a deeper understanding of the game than the average player.
I'm a pub player and I also think mines would be way too strong for less than 15 res. I cannot count the number of times I've heard the marine comm yell "get to _____ now" only to see a +5 or two pop up on my screen and have the comm say "nevermind". Mines buy time, waste skulks time; they allow you to be elsewhere. That's extremely valuable. It sounds like you are more concerned about being able to stay with a shotgun/JP and stay top 3 on the leaderboard, which is your right.
<!--quoteo(post=2064431:date=Jan 21 2013, 04:36 PM:name=Arkahm719)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arkahm719 @ Jan 21 2013, 04:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064431"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i would have to disagree with you and doubt your knowledge about the game, mines are not OP or close to it, they blow unless you wanna kill one skulk not my kinda trade off, seeing that bile bomb will waste mines a fade can just blink by and set them off etc. they have a purpose but not enough for me to waste my pres on them. I do more than my fair share of killing in that game seeing that im usually in the top 3 everytime i play with out mines<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ahha, there's your problem... fades - there's no way you should be getting mines at the same time as fades. On a pub, the very first thing I research is mines. Early game, they give you a massive boost to base and extractor defense. It slows skulks down, kills stupid ones (there are plenty), and saves extractors. Properly used mines are an absolute Godsend for the commander. Oh yes, and they use pres well - nothing else for marines to spend on early game, and no point in saving for exos given that they are basically useless most of the time: jetpacks are just so much better in almost all cases, and phenomenally cheap!
Being top of the server or your side is great, but who cares whether the mines actually get kills? That investment buys your team time, and also means less running back to defend, and more attacking. And placing left over mines at the exit from a hive on an attack can also save your attack...
By far the best thing marines have in the early game.
(I'm not a comp player, I'm an average pub player who is trying to learn as much about this game as possible, and get better every time. The use of mines early game boosted my comm win rate massively!!)
<!--quoteo(post=2063997:date=Jan 20 2013, 10:31 PM:name=The Essential Moon Man)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The Essential Moon Man @ Jan 20 2013, 10:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063997"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sentries aren't meant to be complete room denial. They aren't meant to be set down next to an RT and, suddenly, this RT is unassailable by anything less than 3-4 enemy players. The purpose of the sentry is<b> <i>deterrence</i></b>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->But they don't do that though. Not at all. Give me a sentry farm, and I will take it down - OR - I will take down structures around it. No problem.
Sentries are only a deterrent to new players. Anyone experienced at playing alien will have no problem attacking in a room with a sentry.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As somebody said prior to me, sentries are meant to work in tandem with marines, not be a standing force to be reckoned with. A good sentry farm placement would be areas that <i><b><u>BOTH</u></b></i> marines and aliens are currently frequenting.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->So you say you need marines to GUARD sentries? Yuno what that means? They are now a LIABILITY. If marines need to guard sentries then something is seriously wrong with sentries. Sentries are meant to be there when you are NOT. You trade off team resources in exchange for static defence.
Look at the whip, the alien equivalent. Park two of those (for 30 tres compared to 25 tres for a sentry farm) and you have something that will take out any marine that gets close since it hits for 50 damage a hit. Dump a crag nearby and you have DENIED marines that area. Not deterred, but denied. If placed properly, whips should not be killable in most cases, without a concerted effort from multiple marines. No 'rambo' will take out your whips if placed properly, and if attacked skulks can respond long before the marine has gotten past.
Sentries don't deter a single thing. Skulks find a blind spot, lerks/gorges shoot from distance, fades just fly right by them and onos will crush them.
Plain and simple, they are a waste of res. You can try and convince people otherwise, but the proof is in the pudding. They've seen sentry farms fail time and time again. If you try and start dropping sentry farms, you'll be ejected in most cases because most people consider it a sign that the person is too inexperienced to command.
well lets be fair, you cant compare physical sport to a video game in the nfl you make millions to play once a week in ns2 you make whatever those comps pay out, is it enough to pay your bills? (with said skills, lol couldnt resist) if you dont have bills to play you probably are a kid with alot of time on your hands you can use to do nothing but play video games.
and I personally dont use the shotgun unless i pick one up from somebody. never thought they were worth the 20 res, Ive always been better with the lmg and then i like to save my res so when the comm needs someone with whatever he needs ill have the res to buy it.
<!--quoteo(post=2064469:date=Jan 21 2013, 05:47 PM:name=Arkahm719)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arkahm719 @ Jan 21 2013, 05:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064469"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->well lets be fair, you cant compare physical sport to a video game in the nfl you make millions to play once a week in ns2 you make whatever those comps pay out, is it enough to pay your bills? (with said skills, lol couldnt resist) if you dont have bills to play you probably are a kid with alot of time on your hands you can use to do nothing but play video games.
and I personally dont use the shotgun unless i pick one up from somebody. never thought they were worth the 20 res, Ive always been better with the lmg and then i like to save my res so when the comm needs someone with whatever he needs ill have the res to buy it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I usually withhold shotguns for a while... in the right hands they are brilliant, and against fades they are essential. But early game, assuming your marines can aim, they shouldn't really need the shotguns, and their res is better spent on mines for the first 4-5 mins :)
thats why i never buy them they never seem strong enough but i agree with the fade part, in water pumps i was with this guy he had the shotgun and fade got him i picked it up and got teh fade twice and he went down it was pretty nice
and yes in the right hands they are crazy just not my hands unless im having a really good day lol
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=2064466:date=Jan 21 2013, 02:43 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Jan 21 2013, 02:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064466"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So you say you need marines to GUARD sentries? Yuno what that means? They are now a LIABILITY. If marines need to guard sentries then something is seriously wrong with sentries. Sentries are meant to be there when you are NOT. You trade off team resources in exchange for static defence.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The idea is that they act as a marine substitute when at least one other marine is present. For example, it would allow one marine to take on more than one alien when a sentry was present. However, the actual execution has not worked out that way, mostly because they look and act like a static defense.
<!--quoteo(post=2064466:date=Jan 21 2013, 05:43 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Jan 21 2013, 05:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064466"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But they don't do that though. Not at all. Give me a sentry farm, and I will take it down - OR - I will take down structures around it. No problem.
Sentries are only a deterrent to new players. Anyone experienced at playing alien will have no problem attacking in a room with a sentry.
So you say you need marines to GUARD sentries? Yuno what that means? They are now a LIABILITY. If marines need to guard sentries then something is seriously wrong with sentries. Sentries are meant to be there when you are NOT. You trade off team resources in exchange for static defence.
Look at the whip, the alien equivalent. Park two of those (for 30 tres compared to 25 tres for a sentry farm) and you have something that will take out any marine that gets close since it hits for 50 damage a hit. Dump a crag nearby and you have DENIED marines that area. Not deterred, but denied. If placed properly, whips should not be killable in most cases, without a concerted effort from multiple marines. No 'rambo' will take out your whips if placed properly, and if attacked skulks can respond long before the marine has gotten past.
Sentries don't deter a single thing. Skulks find a blind spot, lerks/gorges shoot from distance, fades just fly right by them and onos will crush them.
Plain and simple, they are a waste of res. You can try and convince people otherwise, but the proof is in the pudding. They've seen sentry farms fail time and time again. If you try and start dropping sentry farms, you'll be ejected in most cases because most people consider it a sign that the person is too inexperienced to command.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2064489:date=Jan 21 2013, 08:14 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Jan 21 2013, 08:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064489"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The idea is that they act as a marine substitute when at least one other marine is present.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->No, they don't. Lemme mention two things. First, when sentries were developed in NS1, they actually had the same LMG damage as marines. And there were 4 of them. Second, the reason why sentries are NOT meant to be some kind of 'marine augmentation' is since marines shouldn't be sitting around guarding sentries.
A: It's not fun B: It's a waste of time C: It's one less marine available for assault D: Aliens will simply attack where you are not
If marines are sitting around guarding sentry farms then the marine team will LOSE. That's a guarantee. The game is such that if marines don't pressure relentlessly they lose by default. Sitting in base twiddling your thumbs staring at a sentry farm ain't gonna help your team win.
<!--quoteo(post=2064630:date=Jan 22 2013, 02:32 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Jan 22 2013, 02:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064630"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No, they don't. Lemme mention two things. First, when sentries were developed in NS1, they actually had the same LMG damage as marines. And there were 4 of them. Second, the reason why sentries are NOT meant to be some kind of 'marine augmentation' is since marines shouldn't be sitting around guarding sentries.
A: It's not fun B: It's a waste of time C: It's one less marine available for assault D: Aliens will simply attack where you are not
If marines are sitting around guarding sentry farms then the marine team will LOSE. That's a guarantee. The game is such that if marines don't pressure relentlessly they lose by default. Sitting in base twiddling your thumbs staring at a sentry farm ain't gonna help your team win.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sentries should not replace the need to marines to be able to get back and defend. They are not intended to be set and forget.
Its no fun trying to take down a sentry as is....most alien cant take it out in one attack, even when they do they still have PG, OBS or IPs to also worry about (along with marines running in to save things.
Turrets definitely didn't output as much damage as an lmg over time. I don't know where it looks like in the code but anyone who played NS1 for half a second can tell you otherwise.
<!--quoteo(post=2064469:date=Jan 21 2013, 04:47 PM:name=Arkahm719)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arkahm719 @ Jan 21 2013, 04:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064469"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->you make whatever those comps pay out, is it enough to pay your bills? (with said skills, lol couldnt resist)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Competitive play does not pay in NS2.
When you played TF2 competitively would you say you were on par with the average pub player? Or progressed way past their level, even playing casually? It's a fair assumption, in most games.. the ones who take it seriously enough to reasonably compete in a competitive setting have a deeper understanding of the game overall. Whether they are wasting their time, or have bills to pay, or have too much free time is irrelevant and demeaning.
All that aside, I wasn't saying you were ineffective and useless to your team. I said you were hurting your potential and limiting your positive impact.
You can disagree with me all you want, but almost every player from the lowest of the competitive players, to the highest of them agree that mines are borderline OP. On top of that, pubbers are slowly starting to realize it too (as evidenced by some of the posts in here).
You're in a minority opinion for sure and I think it's worth your time to reevaluate how you spend your early res in game to improve your game.
I think Sentries are fine, the only problem with them is that they are way too expensive. They are useless against anything except skulks so basically they are an early game asset by design but no marine team has the res to drop sentries until mid game when they become worthless. So i would like it if they would drop the battery requirement and bind them to powernodes like every other building and make them 3 res so for 9 res you can secure a node or tech point early game against single skulks roaming the map and chewing on your res nodes. This would free up marines to expand instead of babysitting every node early game while still making sentry farms useless as soon as fades show up.
<!--quoteo(post=2064642:date=Jan 22 2013, 12:06 AM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Jan 22 2013, 12:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064642"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sentries should not replace the need to marines to be able to get back and defend. They are not intended to be set and forget.
Its no fun trying to take down a sentry as is....most alien cant take it out in one attack, even when they do they still have PG, OBS or IPs to also worry about (along with marines running in to save things.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Some of you guys are missing the point and not thinking about the problem. The problem is "There are not enough marines to have them babysit their extractors all the time and still be able to do everything else they need to do to win"
There is a huge task that marines have that aliens do not. They have to build everything. That takes precious time and marines to accomplish. In doing so they have to fight the entire alien team because what do the aliens have to do? Nothing. All they need to do is attack the marines and their structures. Meanwhile, the alien base is growing itself.
What marines NEED is better protection of their RT. They simply do not have enough people to do this and still pressure the alien RT and base. This is only an early-game problem. By the time marines get 2 bases built, they no longer have to build as much.
So if sentries were not designed to set and forget than what do you think we need? We need seomthing. I think you are wrong anyway. They were intended for set and forget. They were just nerfed into uselessness.
The idea of learning as you play may sound like a good idea but making the fade stronger for new players isn't. A seasoned player will go fade and just tank for their team especially with the current glitch where a fade can shadow step and attack at the same time.
Sentry guns are useless for the most part; they have been taken out, put in and reworked so many times most players don’t know what they’re supposed to be used for.
<!--quoteo(post=2064801:date=Jan 22 2013, 02:40 PM:name=MrChoke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MrChoke @ Jan 22 2013, 02:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064801"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They were intended for set and forget.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> They were not. Use the search function. There are several threads about sentries from the beta. And after testing stronger sentries the consensus was always, that they can't be "set and forget". Because this simply increases the manpower of the marine team with AI. Every room you secure with such sentries is equal to one additional marine guarding said room.
While this looks like the solution to our problem at the first glance, beta has shown that it is not. You are right, that securing 1 or 2 rooms with such sentries, would balance out the manpower disadvantage the marines have, because they need to build things while aliens don't. But the beta has shown, that com's don't secure only 1 or 2 rooms. They simply secure <b>every room</b>! (even those without RTs) Increasing the overall manpower greatly over that from the aliens. Marines were slowly advancing from room to room, building sentry nests and making it impossible for skulks to (A) flank the marines to attack from behind and (B) distract them from the front lines by attacking behind the front line. You don't seem to understand how powerful marines can be, when their backs are saved from flanking.
Additionally to the fact, that alien movement was seriously gimped, it also wasn't the slightest fun in engaging the 100st sentry nest, searching for the little edge where you can bite the sentries without them killing you instantly. The alternative of doing this, was to engage frontal into that full group of marines that could all focus on attacking at the front line. I wish you were there at this beta times, than you could understand how horrible it was.
When I read posts like this it makes me wonder if were playing the same game. Ive never seen one side more dominant that the other, as with most things is a lack of communication from the team or commander asking for troops to defend targets.
I would conceed that the placement range increase would be nice but by design its better to be closer to the battery to defend it.
<!--quoteo(post=2064418:date=Jan 21 2013, 10:11 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Jan 21 2013, 10:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064418"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've started to believe that the only way to salvage sentries is to switch the ARC and sentry. The sentry then becomes the mobile, deployable, marine-supporting weapon and the ARC becomes the stationary, shoots-through-walls, structure-killer (aka NS1-style). It also becomes easier for the comm to micro the sentries to provide the optimal amount of deterrence/support as the battle lines change.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That is actually a great idea and it makes much more sense - mobile turret vs mobile skulks, stationary artillery vs stationary hives.
What about an electrify shock that would nuke skulks around it? Make it cost 15~20 res, so it's like purchasing a whole new RT anyways. That way, no one can complain.. the skulks harassing didn't pay anything for the skulk lifeform, and if they gorged they risk getting caught if a commander sends a unit to defend the RT. Also, the commander had to look away from his squad to trigger it, to decide if it's even worth doing (hopefully the cost would be high enough that it's not spammable.. or.. put some timer on it?).
Have it deal exactly enough damage to nuke a carapace skulk.
Idk.. think RTS elements. I suppose regular electrify would suffice, but the only thing I don't like about NS1 electrify is that it is still very "AI" involved.. Of course it was expensive iirc but if used properly, what would happen is that a marine gets sent to deal with the lone skulk and the skulk has very little chance to defend itself because it has low HP by the time the marine gets there. With a nuke system, the comm has to decide whether or not a lone skulk is worth the res instead..... that way if a marine is sent to deal with a skulk the skulk can actually choose to fight/flee instead of ALWAYS fleeing as the better option (or dying, in which case he costed the marine team some res).
A downside is that I have no idea how to make something like that look intuitive, that it's a "nuke skulks" button, and not an upgrade (that people unfamiliar with, will waste res on, even furthering the alien win % lol).
To make it so you can't just quick-nuke as a quick-thought ability (like losing an RT at your front line because your squad died and there's a full team of skulks on it), make it have to be researched, perhaps.
Please stop posting about a game you've never played before, I don't know who is worse between you or Davil in regards to making ###### up about NS1 but it has to stop.
You can place 8+ turrets to a turret factory, they did nowhere ######ing near LMG dmg (I just made a game then and built 10, stood in front of 5+ as a skulk and waited 5 seconds to die) and were used a lot more defensively/offensively then they are now especially due to sieging mechanics, 4 was a magic number people found acceptable to build on TF being used to siege a hive down, you'd see closer to ######ing 8 in most bases in NS1 pubs come late game.
The guy you've been quoting didn't say marines have to guard sentries, if you build a sentry nest in NS2 that has a blind side in it you're either a ######ing idiot or you wanted to cover certain areas, 9/10 you can simply triangle them next to your power node/pg/obs which you should build/position taking into consideration a mid/late game sentry and your life will be a lot easier. If you don't, again, you're a ######ing idiot and it's not the sentries fault they're not working for you.
Sentries are force multipliers on offence or defence, they do more damage the longer they fire so they are quite effective fade deterrents even late game, 1 sentry will start to shred a fade past 3-5 seconds and god forbid 1-2 people out of a team of 10 buy welders and phase around base and keep an eye on the map. God forbid the comm builds spare MACs to keep around his main bases/sentries, god forbid we stop cherry picking stupid arguments and scenarios in NS2 to prove our horrible opinions that mask the fact we don't know how to play.
You don't have to be a comp player to see how badly most sentries are used by commanders, as either a crux or an afterthought to a base/forward post but you don't have to be top 10 NS2 player to see they serve a purpose in pubs, most people argue about the build order/timing of sentries as opposed to whether they are effective or not in a good game.
Building sentries too early prohibits marine upgrades, something no one enjoys, building them too late usually means 2-3 marines are perm base fending off and repairing any damage done by leaping skulks or bile rushing gorges, sentries counter the first in most cases and throw caution in the wind to the second. Either way come mid game you don't want 2-3 marines constantly in base running around repairing everything, MACs can do that and you don't want 2-3 marines constantly in base giving you notice of any incoming attacks and fending them off, sentries can mostly do that as well.
And in regards to OP, buffing marine defence is horrible when it's marine team work/offence that is the issue, they really don't need a buff in either if hit reg, animation models or performance get better, they'll be fine, spend more time learning how to track and position as a marine (Tane position guide already posted in here don't ignore it) instead of posting on UWE forums and it'll do you 50x more good.
I've said it once, i'll say it again. the best way to protect your own RTs is to attack the other teams, plain and simple. If you make the aliens come to you, they won't go to your Rts.
<!--quoteo(post=2064801:date=Jan 22 2013, 05:40 AM:name=MrChoke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MrChoke @ Jan 22 2013, 05:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064801"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Some of you guys are missing the point and not thinking about the problem. The problem is "There are not enough marines to have them babysit their extractors all the time and still be able to do everything else they need to do to win"
There is a huge task that marines have that aliens do not. They have to build everything. That takes precious time and marines to accomplish. In doing so they have to fight the entire alien team because what do the aliens have to do? Nothing. All they need to do is attack the marines and their structures. Meanwhile, the alien base is growing itself.
What marines NEED is better protection of their RT. They simply do not have enough people to do this and still pressure the alien RT and base. This is only an early-game problem. By the time marines get 2 bases built, they no longer have to build as much.
So if sentries were not designed to set and forget than what do you think we need? We need seomthing. I think you are wrong anyway. They were intended for set and forget. They were just nerfed into uselessness.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is your L2P right there.
Most pubs build RTs and when they encounter some resistance like a single gorge or infestation, they just stop and start camping and waiting for the sky to fall or something. If you watch any form of half-decent (not even competitive game, just half-decent), you will notice that the teams never stop, unless it's very situational like waiting for a couple res ticks for a phase gate or something. There is constant pressure, constant pushing, constant activity. Nobody sits and waits. They go and kill stuff.
Therein is the essence of NS2 and the failure of pubs. The marine's job is NOT to defend RTs. If you run around defending RTs, you WILL lose. Marines can NOT do that effectively. Perhaps once jetpacks are out, one person can be dedicated to keeping the RTs clean in the "back," but jetpacks are mid-late game.
The essence of early game is massive, concentrated, organized PRESSURE. If you haven't killed a gorge or alien RT on a pub by about 2:00 you aren't likely to win - unless, of course, the alien team is just as terrible, which is also, unfortunately, commonly seen.
The way to "pull" aliens off your RTs is to MAKE them play defensively around their infested areas. Make it so if they have one skulk killing your RT in the back, they lose an RT of their own, or even a hive.
Unfortunately, that requires organization and coordination on marine side, as well as aiming and positioning skills from EVERY player of the marine team, as well as an excellent commander - a combination that you hardly ever see on pubs. Cue "no commander" for the first 1-2 minutes of a game, etc., and you've got a game that most newer players think "favors aliens."
There is no problem with the balancing of the game. Sentries, electrify, resource-node-explode, mining RTs, etc. etc. etc. are all suggestions to "fix" side-effects of a glowing problem in a lot of the current NS2 games I've played: LACK OF MARINE PRESSURE EARLY GAME.
The real problem is that aliens are actually HORRIBLY under-powered. If you have a clockwork marine team where everyone is above-decent in shooting and positioning skill, aliens get simply ripped to shreds early game - because there's only so much a skulk can do to evade a ranged weapon, especially in early game when leap is not up.
I'm not sure it was worth my time to reiterate this for the 1000th time on these forums, but yeah - good luck with your "tower defense mod."
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=2064630:date=Jan 21 2013, 08:32 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Jan 21 2013, 08:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064630"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No, they don't. Lemme mention two things. First, when sentries were developed in NS1, they actually had the same LMG damage as marines. And there were 4 of them. Second, the reason why sentries are NOT meant to be some kind of 'marine augmentation' is since marines shouldn't be sitting around guarding sentries.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm not saying I agree with the sentry as a "marine assist", but that's how UWE intended them in NS2. The <a href="https://docs.google.com/document/d/150pxFW1b_KqgdzIF4MNxO1xBA-jrndZZ9-d_Ez0L1js/edit#" target="_blank">high-level design doc</a> suggests sentries as a method to "delay, assist, warn (not kill)" and Charlie has made <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=121017&view=findpost&p=1984733" target="_blank">previous statements</a> that he doesn't want NS2 to devolve into player vs turret.
I'm, of course, not a fan of NS2: Turret Defense (which was what dominated the early NS2 beta), but I do feel marines need some form of defense, especially early game. I've just come to believe that sentries will never really fulfill that role very well and should probably be repurposed or removed.
Also, what scardybob said. Sentries in NS2 are designed in a MUCH different way than, say, sentries in TF2. If you think that the sentries in NS2 are kinda like sentries in TF2, unfortunately you're quite wrong.
Sentries in NS2 by design ASSIST other players. They do not/should not kill players by themselves.
<!--quoteo(post=2064865:date=Jan 22 2013, 12:40 PM:name=Xao)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xao @ Jan 22 2013, 12:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064865"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->they did nowhere ######ing near LMG dmg (I just made a game then and built 10, stood in front of 5+ as a skulk and waited 5 seconds to die)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Hey, wise guy. Open up the balance file, and check the damage for yourself. The numbers are there in black and white. Sentries do 10 damage in NS1, which is the same as the LMG. Ask the developers if you don't believe me. They use the LMG damage model.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->and were used a lot more defensively/offensively then they are now especially due to sieging mechanics, 4 was a magic number people found acceptable to build on TF being used to siege a hive down, you'd see closer to ######ing 8 in most bases in NS1 pubs come late game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Since it's been over 5 years since I played, I remembered 4 since that was what I usually saw. However if I was mistaken then call it 8. All that does is make my point all the more stronger. In NS2 you get 3 turrets to a battery and in NS1 you got 8 to a battery. Thanks for making my point about the uselessness of NS2 sentries.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The guy you've been quoting didn't say marines have to guard sentries<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Oh? He said: <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The idea is that they act as a marine substitute when at least one other marine is present.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->That sounds like guard duty to me. His point was that sentries shouldn't be viable unless a marine is around. Well what's the point of making sentries if a marine has to 'hang around' with them?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->if you build a sentry nest in NS2 that has a blind side in it you're either a ######ing idiot or you wanted to cover certain areas<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->First off, it's impossible to build a sentry nest without a blind side *IF* you want to have the sentries covering something. The only way to have no blind spot is triangle formation facing inwards, and if you do that the thing you want to protect (like a phase gate) will have a blind side. So while your sentry nest will survive, the thing you wanted to protect will not. Great tool these sentries.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Building sentries too early prohibits marine upgrades, something no one enjoys<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->But that was *MY* point many pages ago. The time when you *need* sentries is in the early game, but you can't afford them. The time when you can afford sentries in the late game they are not at all effective against the advance alien lifeforms. Yet another reason they are useless.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And in regards to OP, buffing marine defence is horrible<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I actually agree that changing sentries won't balance the game as it stands. While sentries are totally useless at present, there is nothing that can be done to fix that unless you made them free.
You think sentries are useful? Let's see how long you last as commander dropping sentry nests before you are ejected.
<!--quoteo(post=2065173:date=Jan 22 2013, 04:11 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Jan 22 2013, 04:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065173"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hey, wise guy. Open up the balance file, and check the damage for yourself. The numbers are there in black and white. Sentries do 10 damage in NS1, which is the same as the LMG. Ask the developers if you don't believe me. They use the LMG damage model.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nothing in the balance file for damage (half life>NS>balance.txt), <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns/static/comm_manual/basic/marineStructures.htm" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns/static/com...eStructures.htm</a>
NS1 LMG Damage: 10 Rate of Fire: 10 rounds/sec (And all 10 of these rounds did rego)
NS1 turret Damage: 10 Rate of Fire: 1.43/sec In balance file: #define kTurretBaseRateOfFire 0.70
We both know NS1 turrets had a blinking pattern of fire, sentries fire slightly faster (or if we believe the balance file and it feels that they fire nearly twice as fast in both games) while their damage ramps up as they fire, they are almost better than NS1 turrets in every single way so far except the build pattern.
I refer to triangle setup as either all facing inwards meaning any structures next to a sentry are covered or 2 on the bottom facing out and one on the top facing in, while yes there is possibly 1 blind spot on the bottom turrets this involves a skulk angling himself in between a base near a phase under an obs within 1-2 CM behind a sentry just to deal dmg to it and as soon as it's down he's going to be attacked anyway.
Offensively you can jam them in corners of hallways/rooms and have all 3 facing out so the only way to kill them off is on top of the battery, or 2 facing out and 1 facing in and there's no dead zone there, effectively you have 1-3 more marines firing every second now for another 15-20 Tres.
This entire thread in regards to sentry changes/electro res reeks of the stupidity in the EXO thread, you're judging the effectiveness of something based on the worst cases of it being used in public play, go watch people with positive KD get dual exo with welder/mac/scan support or watch people who can comm pubs with a clue use sentry batteries in tech points/offence, there is a world of difference and it's completely unfair to make threads based on XxXCOD4lyfeproMLG's latest 2 IP armoury robo 2 RTs in 5 min build.
And referring to comp play in regards to sentries isn't too useful either, turrets were never used except in siege pushes in NS1 and even then extremely rarely, the time spent building sentries for 4 seconds could have been spent shooting the hive with HA/HMG or JP/HMG/SG, the tempo and reliance on player skill is too high in comp to judge what I think is primarily a public play mechanic. NS2 comp play seems no different.
Sentries are still completely viable mid/late game and allow more marines out on the field and less camping base to make sure a lone skulk can't take out pg/power/obs/arms by himself or without being hurt, they can't replace a marine nor they shouldn't, they multiply a marines effectiveness when used properly and are a waste of res in the wrong hands like many things in this game.
<!--quoteo(post=2064653:date=Jan 21 2013, 09:30 PM:name=Omar - The Wire)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Omar - The Wire @ Jan 21 2013, 09:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064653"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Competitive play does not pay in NS2.
When you played TF2 competitively would you say you were on par with the average pub player? Or progressed way past their level, even playing casually? It's a fair assumption, in most games.. the ones who take it seriously enough to reasonably compete in a competitive setting have a deeper understanding of the game overall. Whether they are wasting their time, or have bills to pay, or have too much free time is irrelevant and demeaning.
All that aside, I wasn't saying you were ineffective and useless to your team. I said you were hurting your potential and limiting your positive impact.
You can disagree with me all you want, but almost every player from the lowest of the competitive players, to the highest of them agree that mines are borderline OP. On top of that, pubbers are slowly starting to realize it too (as evidenced by some of the posts in here).
You're in a minority opinion for sure and I think it's worth your time to reevaluate how you spend your early res in game to improve your game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Mines are the first thing I research, much to the chagrin of my team, who want shotties first.
Comments
just because you are a comp player doesnt mean anything either except you have to much free time on your hands, so dont try and use it like its some great title IAMKING
i was a comp player in tf2 years ago, and just because i was didnt make me a master of everything tf2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And NFL players are just strong dudes with too much time on their hands? What a preposterous statement. Comp players are better than the average player. It is also fair to assume they have a deeper understanding of the game than the average player.
I'm a pub player and I also think mines would be way too strong for less than 15 res. I cannot count the number of times I've heard the marine comm yell "get to _____ now" only to see a +5 or two pop up on my screen and have the comm say "nevermind". Mines buy time, waste skulks time; they allow you to be elsewhere. That's extremely valuable. It sounds like you are more concerned about being able to stay with a shotgun/JP and stay top 3 on the leaderboard, which is your right.
Ahha, there's your problem... fades - there's no way you should be getting mines at the same time as fades. On a pub, the very first thing I research is mines. Early game, they give you a massive boost to base and extractor defense. It slows skulks down, kills stupid ones (there are plenty), and saves extractors. Properly used mines are an absolute Godsend for the commander. Oh yes, and they use pres well - nothing else for marines to spend on early game, and no point in saving for exos given that they are basically useless most of the time: jetpacks are just so much better in almost all cases, and phenomenally cheap!
Being top of the server or your side is great, but who cares whether the mines actually get kills? That investment buys your team time, and also means less running back to defend, and more attacking. And placing left over mines at the exit from a hive on an attack can also save your attack...
By far the best thing marines have in the early game.
(I'm not a comp player, I'm an average pub player who is trying to learn as much about this game as possible, and get better every time. The use of mines early game boosted my comm win rate massively!!)
Sentries are only a deterrent to new players. Anyone experienced at playing alien will have no problem attacking in a room with a sentry.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As somebody said prior to me, sentries are meant to work in tandem with marines, not be a standing force to be reckoned with. A good sentry farm placement would be areas that <i><b><u>BOTH</u></b></i> marines and aliens are currently frequenting.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->So you say you need marines to GUARD sentries? Yuno what that means? They are now a LIABILITY. If marines need to guard sentries then something is seriously wrong with sentries. Sentries are meant to be there when you are NOT. You trade off team resources in exchange for static defence.
Look at the whip, the alien equivalent. Park two of those (for 30 tres compared to 25 tres for a sentry farm) and you have something that will take out any marine that gets close since it hits for 50 damage a hit. Dump a crag nearby and you have DENIED marines that area. Not deterred, but denied. If placed properly, whips should not be killable in most cases, without a concerted effort from multiple marines. No 'rambo' will take out your whips if placed properly, and if attacked skulks can respond long before the marine has gotten past.
Sentries don't deter a single thing. Skulks find a blind spot, lerks/gorges shoot from distance, fades just fly right by them and onos will crush them.
Plain and simple, they are a waste of res. You can try and convince people otherwise, but the proof is in the pudding. They've seen sentry farms fail time and time again. If you try and start dropping sentry farms, you'll be ejected in most cases because most people consider it a sign that the person is too inexperienced to command.
and I personally dont use the shotgun unless i pick one up from somebody. never thought they were worth the 20 res, Ive always been better with the lmg and then i like to save my res so when the comm needs someone with whatever he needs ill have the res to buy it.
+2
and I personally dont use the shotgun unless i pick one up from somebody. never thought they were worth the 20 res, Ive always been better with the lmg and then i like to save my res so when the comm needs someone with whatever he needs ill have the res to buy it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I usually withhold shotguns for a while... in the right hands they are brilliant, and against fades they are essential. But early game, assuming your marines can aim, they shouldn't really need the shotguns, and their res is better spent on mines for the first 4-5 mins :)
and yes in the right hands they are crazy just not my hands unless im having a really good day lol
The idea is that they act as a marine substitute when at least one other marine is present. For example, it would allow one marine to take on more than one alien when a sentry was present. However, the actual execution has not worked out that way, mostly because they look and act like a static defense.
Sentries are only a deterrent to new players. Anyone experienced at playing alien will have no problem attacking in a room with a sentry.
So you say you need marines to GUARD sentries? Yuno what that means? They are now a LIABILITY. If marines need to guard sentries then something is seriously wrong with sentries. Sentries are meant to be there when you are NOT. You trade off team resources in exchange for static defence.
Look at the whip, the alien equivalent. Park two of those (for 30 tres compared to 25 tres for a sentry farm) and you have something that will take out any marine that gets close since it hits for 50 damage a hit. Dump a crag nearby and you have DENIED marines that area. Not deterred, but denied. If placed properly, whips should not be killable in most cases, without a concerted effort from multiple marines. No 'rambo' will take out your whips if placed properly, and if attacked skulks can respond long before the marine has gotten past.
Sentries don't deter a single thing. Skulks find a blind spot, lerks/gorges shoot from distance, fades just fly right by them and onos will crush them.
Plain and simple, they are a waste of res. You can try and convince people otherwise, but the proof is in the pudding. They've seen sentry farms fail time and time again. If you try and start dropping sentry farms, you'll be ejected in most cases because most people consider it a sign that the person is too inexperienced to command.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1
A: It's not fun
B: It's a waste of time
C: It's one less marine available for assault
D: Aliens will simply attack where you are not
If marines are sitting around guarding sentry farms then the marine team will LOSE. That's a guarantee. The game is such that if marines don't pressure relentlessly they lose by default. Sitting in base twiddling your thumbs staring at a sentry farm ain't gonna help your team win.
A: It's not fun
B: It's a waste of time
C: It's one less marine available for assault
D: Aliens will simply attack where you are not
If marines are sitting around guarding sentry farms then the marine team will LOSE. That's a guarantee. The game is such that if marines don't pressure relentlessly they lose by default. Sitting in base twiddling your thumbs staring at a sentry farm ain't gonna help your team win.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sentries should not replace the need to marines to be able to get back and defend.
They are not intended to be set and forget.
Its no fun trying to take down a sentry as is....most alien cant take it out in one attack, even when they do they still have PG, OBS or IPs to also worry about (along with marines running in to save things.
When you played TF2 competitively would you say you were on par with the average pub player? Or progressed way past their level, even playing casually? It's a fair assumption, in most games.. the ones who take it seriously enough to reasonably compete in a competitive setting have a deeper understanding of the game overall. Whether they are wasting their time, or have bills to pay, or have too much free time is irrelevant and demeaning.
All that aside, I wasn't saying you were ineffective and useless to your team. I said you were hurting your potential and limiting your positive impact.
You can disagree with me all you want, but almost every player from the lowest of the competitive players, to the highest of them agree that mines are borderline OP. On top of that, pubbers are slowly starting to realize it too (as evidenced by some of the posts in here).
You're in a minority opinion for sure and I think it's worth your time to reevaluate how you spend your early res in game to improve your game.
This would free up marines to expand instead of babysitting every node early game while still making sentry farms useless as soon as fades show up.
They are not intended to be set and forget.
Its no fun trying to take down a sentry as is....most alien cant take it out in one attack, even when they do they still have PG, OBS or IPs to also worry about (along with marines running in to save things.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Some of you guys are missing the point and not thinking about the problem. The problem is "There are not enough marines to have them babysit their extractors all the time and still be able to do everything else they need to do to win"
There is a huge task that marines have that aliens do not. They have to build everything. That takes precious time and marines to accomplish. In doing so they have to fight the entire alien team because what do the aliens have to do? Nothing. All they need to do is attack the marines and their structures. Meanwhile, the alien base is growing itself.
What marines NEED is better protection of their RT. They simply do not have enough people to do this and still pressure the alien RT and base. This is only an early-game problem. By the time marines get 2 bases built, they no longer have to build as much.
So if sentries were not designed to set and forget than what do you think we need? We need seomthing. I think you are wrong anyway. They were intended for set and forget. They were just nerfed into uselessness.
Sentry guns are useless for the most part; they have been taken out, put in and reworked so many times most players don’t know what they’re supposed to be used for.
They were not. Use the search function. There are several threads about sentries from the beta. And after testing stronger sentries the consensus was always, that they can't be "set and forget". Because this simply increases the manpower of the marine team with AI. Every room you secure with such sentries is equal to one additional marine guarding said room.
While this looks like the solution to our problem at the first glance, beta has shown that it is not. You are right, that securing 1 or 2 rooms with such sentries, would balance out the manpower disadvantage the marines have, because they need to build things while aliens don't. But the beta has shown, that com's don't secure only 1 or 2 rooms. They simply secure <b>every room</b>! (even those without RTs) Increasing the overall manpower greatly over that from the aliens. Marines were slowly advancing from room to room, building sentry nests and making it impossible for skulks to (A) flank the marines to attack from behind and (B) distract them from the front lines by attacking behind the front line. You don't seem to understand how powerful marines can be, when their backs are saved from flanking.
Additionally to the fact, that alien movement was seriously gimped, it also wasn't the slightest fun in engaging the 100st sentry nest, searching for the little edge where you can bite the sentries without them killing you instantly. The alternative of doing this, was to engage frontal into that full group of marines that could all focus on attacking at the front line. I wish you were there at this beta times, than you could understand how horrible it was.
I would conceed that the placement range increase would be nice but by design its better to be closer to the battery to defend it.
That is actually a great idea and it makes much more sense - mobile turret vs mobile skulks, stationary artillery vs stationary hives.
Have it deal exactly enough damage to nuke a carapace skulk.
Idk.. think RTS elements. I suppose regular electrify would suffice, but the only thing I don't like about NS1 electrify is that it is still very "AI" involved.. Of course it was expensive iirc but if used properly, what would happen is that a marine gets sent to deal with the lone skulk and the skulk has very little chance to defend itself because it has low HP by the time the marine gets there. With a nuke system, the comm has to decide whether or not a lone skulk is worth the res instead..... that way if a marine is sent to deal with a skulk the skulk can actually choose to fight/flee instead of ALWAYS fleeing as the better option (or dying, in which case he costed the marine team some res).
A downside is that I have no idea how to make something like that look intuitive, that it's a "nuke skulks" button, and not an upgrade (that people unfamiliar with, will waste res on, even furthering the alien win % lol).
To make it so you can't just quick-nuke as a quick-thought ability (like losing an RT at your front line because your squad died and there's a full team of skulks on it), make it have to be researched, perhaps.
Please stop posting about a game you've never played before, I don't know who is worse between you or Davil in regards to making ###### up about NS1 but it has to stop.
You can place 8+ turrets to a turret factory, they did nowhere ######ing near LMG dmg (I just made a game then and built 10, stood in front of 5+ as a skulk and waited 5 seconds to die) and were used a lot more defensively/offensively then they are now especially due to sieging mechanics, 4 was a magic number people found acceptable to build on TF being used to siege a hive down, you'd see closer to ######ing 8 in most bases in NS1 pubs come late game.
The guy you've been quoting didn't say marines have to guard sentries, if you build a sentry nest in NS2 that has a blind side in it you're either a ######ing idiot or you wanted to cover certain areas, 9/10 you can simply triangle them next to your power node/pg/obs which you should build/position taking into consideration a mid/late game sentry and your life will be a lot easier. If you don't, again, you're a ######ing idiot and it's not the sentries fault they're not working for you.
Sentries are force multipliers on offence or defence, they do more damage the longer they fire so they are quite effective fade deterrents even late game, 1 sentry will start to shred a fade past 3-5 seconds and god forbid 1-2 people out of a team of 10 buy welders and phase around base and keep an eye on the map. God forbid the comm builds spare MACs to keep around his main bases/sentries, god forbid we stop cherry picking stupid arguments and scenarios in NS2 to prove our horrible opinions that mask the fact we don't know how to play.
You don't have to be a comp player to see how badly most sentries are used by commanders, as either a crux or an afterthought to a base/forward post but you don't have to be top 10 NS2 player to see they serve a purpose in pubs, most people argue about the build order/timing of sentries as opposed to whether they are effective or not in a good game.
Building sentries too early prohibits marine upgrades, something no one enjoys, building them too late usually means 2-3 marines are perm base fending off and repairing any damage done by leaping skulks or bile rushing gorges, sentries counter the first in most cases and throw caution in the wind to the second. Either way come mid game you don't want 2-3 marines constantly in base running around repairing everything, MACs can do that and you don't want 2-3 marines constantly in base giving you notice of any incoming attacks and fending them off, sentries can mostly do that as well.
And in regards to OP, buffing marine defence is horrible when it's marine team work/offence that is the issue, they really don't need a buff in either if hit reg, animation models or performance get better, they'll be fine, spend more time learning how to track and position as a marine (Tane position guide already posted in here don't ignore it) instead of posting on UWE forums and it'll do you 50x more good.
There is a huge task that marines have that aliens do not. They have to build everything. That takes precious time and marines to accomplish. In doing so they have to fight the entire alien team because what do the aliens have to do? Nothing. All they need to do is attack the marines and their structures. Meanwhile, the alien base is growing itself.
What marines NEED is better protection of their RT. They simply do not have enough people to do this and still pressure the alien RT and base. This is only an early-game problem. By the time marines get 2 bases built, they no longer have to build as much.
So if sentries were not designed to set and forget than what do you think we need? We need seomthing. I think you are wrong anyway. They were intended for set and forget. They were just nerfed into uselessness.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is your L2P right there.
Most pubs build RTs and when they encounter some resistance like a single gorge or infestation, they just stop and start camping and waiting for the sky to fall or something. If you watch any form of half-decent (not even competitive game, just half-decent), you will notice that the teams never stop, unless it's very situational like waiting for a couple res ticks for a phase gate or something. There is constant pressure, constant pushing, constant activity. Nobody sits and waits. They go and kill stuff.
Therein is the essence of NS2 and the failure of pubs. The marine's job is NOT to defend RTs. If you run around defending RTs, you WILL lose. Marines can NOT do that effectively. Perhaps once jetpacks are out, one person can be dedicated to keeping the RTs clean in the "back," but jetpacks are mid-late game.
The essence of early game is massive, concentrated, organized PRESSURE. If you haven't killed a gorge or alien RT on a pub by about 2:00 you aren't likely to win - unless, of course, the alien team is just as terrible, which is also, unfortunately, commonly seen.
The way to "pull" aliens off your RTs is to MAKE them play defensively around their infested areas. Make it so if they have one skulk killing your RT in the back, they lose an RT of their own, or even a hive.
Unfortunately, that requires organization and coordination on marine side, as well as aiming and positioning skills from EVERY player of the marine team, as well as an excellent commander - a combination that you hardly ever see on pubs. Cue "no commander" for the first 1-2 minutes of a game, etc., and you've got a game that most newer players think "favors aliens."
There is no problem with the balancing of the game. Sentries, electrify, resource-node-explode, mining RTs, etc. etc. etc. are all suggestions to "fix" side-effects of a glowing problem in a lot of the current NS2 games I've played: LACK OF MARINE PRESSURE EARLY GAME.
The real problem is that aliens are actually HORRIBLY under-powered. If you have a clockwork marine team where everyone is above-decent in shooting and positioning skill, aliens get simply ripped to shreds early game - because there's only so much a skulk can do to evade a ranged weapon, especially in early game when leap is not up.
I'm not sure it was worth my time to reiterate this for the 1000th time on these forums, but yeah - good luck with your "tower defense mod."
I'm not saying I agree with the sentry as a "marine assist", but that's how UWE intended them in NS2. The <a href="https://docs.google.com/document/d/150pxFW1b_KqgdzIF4MNxO1xBA-jrndZZ9-d_Ez0L1js/edit#" target="_blank">high-level design doc</a> suggests sentries as a method to "delay, assist, warn (not kill)" and Charlie has made <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=121017&view=findpost&p=1984733" target="_blank">previous statements</a> that he doesn't want NS2 to devolve into player vs turret.
I'm, of course, not a fan of NS2: Turret Defense (which was what dominated the early NS2 beta), but I do feel marines need some form of defense, especially early game. I've just come to believe that sentries will never really fulfill that role very well and should probably be repurposed or removed.
Sentries in NS2 by design ASSIST other players. They do not/should not kill players by themselves.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->and were used a lot more defensively/offensively then they are now especially due to sieging mechanics, 4 was a magic number people found acceptable to build on TF being used to siege a hive down, you'd see closer to ######ing 8 in most bases in NS1 pubs come late game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Since it's been over 5 years since I played, I remembered 4 since that was what I usually saw. However if I was mistaken then call it 8. All that does is make my point all the more stronger. In NS2 you get 3 turrets to a battery and in NS1 you got 8 to a battery. Thanks for making my point about the uselessness of NS2 sentries.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The guy you've been quoting didn't say marines have to guard sentries<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Oh? He said:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The idea is that they act as a marine substitute when at least one other marine is present.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->That sounds like guard duty to me. His point was that sentries shouldn't be viable unless a marine is around. Well what's the point of making sentries if a marine has to 'hang around' with them?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->if you build a sentry nest in NS2 that has a blind side in it you're either a ######ing idiot or you wanted to cover certain areas<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->First off, it's impossible to build a sentry nest without a blind side *IF* you want to have the sentries covering something. The only way to have no blind spot is triangle formation facing inwards, and if you do that the thing you want to protect (like a phase gate) will have a blind side. So while your sentry nest will survive, the thing you wanted to protect will not. Great tool these sentries.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Building sentries too early prohibits marine upgrades, something no one enjoys<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->But that was *MY* point many pages ago. The time when you *need* sentries is in the early game, but you can't afford them. The time when you can afford sentries in the late game they are not at all effective against the advance alien lifeforms. Yet another reason they are useless.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And in regards to OP, buffing marine defence is horrible<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I actually agree that changing sentries won't balance the game as it stands. While sentries are totally useless at present, there is nothing that can be done to fix that unless you made them free.
You think sentries are useful? Let's see how long you last as commander dropping sentry nests before you are ejected.
Nothing in the balance file for damage (half life>NS>balance.txt), <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns/static/comm_manual/basic/marineStructures.htm" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns/static/com...eStructures.htm</a>
NS1 LMG
Damage: 10
Rate of Fire: 10 rounds/sec (And all 10 of these rounds did rego)
NS1 turret
Damage: 10
Rate of Fire: 1.43/sec
In balance file: #define kTurretBaseRateOfFire 0.70
NS2 sentry
Damage: 20 (max)
Duration: 5 seconds (ramp-up)
Interval: 0.5 seconds
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns/static/changelogs/v31-changelog.html" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns/static/cha...-changelog.html</a>
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns/static/changelogs/v32-changelog.html" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns/static/cha...-changelog.html</a>
We both know NS1 turrets had a blinking pattern of fire, sentries fire slightly faster (or if we believe the balance file and it feels that they fire nearly twice as fast in both games) while their damage ramps up as they fire, they are almost better than NS1 turrets in every single way so far except the build pattern.
I refer to triangle setup as either all facing inwards meaning any structures next to a sentry are covered or 2 on the bottom facing out and one on the top facing in, while yes there is possibly 1 blind spot on the bottom turrets this involves a skulk angling himself in between a base near a phase under an obs within 1-2 CM behind a sentry just to deal dmg to it and as soon as it's down he's going to be attacked anyway.
Offensively you can jam them in corners of hallways/rooms and have all 3 facing out so the only way to kill them off is on top of the battery, or 2 facing out and 1 facing in and there's no dead zone there, effectively you have 1-3 more marines firing every second now for another 15-20 Tres.
This entire thread in regards to sentry changes/electro res reeks of the stupidity in the EXO thread, you're judging the effectiveness of something based on the worst cases of it being used in public play, go watch people with positive KD get dual exo with welder/mac/scan support or watch people who can comm pubs with a clue use sentry batteries in tech points/offence, there is a world of difference and it's completely unfair to make threads based on XxXCOD4lyfeproMLG's latest 2 IP armoury robo 2 RTs in 5 min build.
And referring to comp play in regards to sentries isn't too useful either, turrets were never used except in siege pushes in NS1 and even then extremely rarely, the time spent building sentries for 4 seconds could have been spent shooting the hive with HA/HMG or JP/HMG/SG, the tempo and reliance on player skill is too high in comp to judge what I think is primarily a public play mechanic. NS2 comp play seems no different.
Sentries are still completely viable mid/late game and allow more marines out on the field and less camping base to make sure a lone skulk can't take out pg/power/obs/arms by himself or without being hurt, they can't replace a marine nor they shouldn't, they multiply a marines effectiveness when used properly and are a waste of res in the wrong hands like many things in this game.
When you played TF2 competitively would you say you were on par with the average pub player? Or progressed way past their level, even playing casually? It's a fair assumption, in most games.. the ones who take it seriously enough to reasonably compete in a competitive setting have a deeper understanding of the game overall. Whether they are wasting their time, or have bills to pay, or have too much free time is irrelevant and demeaning.
All that aside, I wasn't saying you were ineffective and useless to your team. I said you were hurting your potential and limiting your positive impact.
You can disagree with me all you want, but almost every player from the lowest of the competitive players, to the highest of them agree that mines are borderline OP. On top of that, pubbers are slowly starting to realize it too (as evidenced by some of the posts in here).
You're in a minority opinion for sure and I think it's worth your time to reevaluate how you spend your early res in game to improve your game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Mines are the first thing I research, much to the chagrin of my team, who want shotties first.
Protip:
Shotties before weapon 1 = Not so good.