If that is really the case then you are only making the problem worse. If every marine carries a welder, then they will be able to be at full armor FAR MORE OFTEN then they are now. If anything, you should be advocating for welders NOT being able to be used to repair marine armor.
No it becomes a conscious choice for the marines to switch weapons to a welder and heal. It is a far better situation in my mind than the non-choice of standing next to a box.
Marine with 100 health and 90 armor gets bitten by a skulk. The marine is now at 70 health and 64 armor. The skulk has done 56 points of damage to the marine.
Marine with 100 health and 0 armor gets bitten by a skulk. The marine is now at 25 health and 0 armor. The skulk has done 75 points of damage to the marine.
Two situations, and in the second situation the skulk has done MORE damage with a single bite. The skulks damage has scaled higher with the lack of marine armor.
This, my dear friend, is why armor is so important from a balance perspective.
Skulk bite does 75 damage on a full hit in both of those instances. Period. Handwaving does not make the other 19 damage suddenly not happen in your first scenario. It does not scale or change. How it is applied to armor and HP is not and has never been in dispute. If armor was a flat damage reduction modifier you'd be right, but it's not. My original statement that alien damage does not scale still stands true. All armor does is an extra means on top of health to control TTK between lifeforms and attacks. TTK is what is important here. Marines can increase TTK for the aliens but the aliens cannot reduce it.
Once again, marine armor scales, alien damage does not. There is nothing incorrect or tricky about that statement.
No it becomes a conscious choice for the marines to switch weapons to a welder and heal. It is a far better situation in my mind than the non-choice of standing next to a box.
It almost seems to me that you just hate the armory in general - despite marines needing a place to heal up to full health. The problem is that it's not optional.
Marine with 100 health and 90 armor gets bitten by a skulk. The marine is now at 70 health and 64 armor. The skulk has done 56 points of damage to the marine.
Skulk bite does 75 damage on a full hit in both of those instances. Period.
No, it doesn't. You are trying to argue semantics when the numbers speak for themselves. If I am an A3 marine at full health armor and you are a skulk, if you bite me I will only take 56 points in damage. Period. Full stop. End of story. Your bite doesn't land 75 damage when I am at full armor. Your bite will NEVER land 75 damage if a marine is at full armor. Your bite will only deal 75 damage if I have no armor. It's not like the bite deals 75 damage and then I get 19 points back. Those 19 points NEVER get taken off.
This is why armor is in the game. It's used to balance and scale the various encounters. This isn't my view, Charlie said as much in his high level design document. Do you want a quote?
That's the bottom line here, and it is why armor is something that you can't screw with haphazardly.
Yes they do, they are apart of the Armor count adjustment based on the damage type of the attack. In this case with a normal damage type the armor is reduced by one half of the damage allocated to it. That damage does NOT disappear. It still happened and without it the change to armor and HP count would be lower. It STILL MATTERS and absolutely affects TTK. Even more so when med packs enter the equation.
This is why armor is in the game. It's used to balance and scale the various encounters.
For the love of all that is good and holy THIS IS NOT IN DISPUTE. Why do you keep bringing it up as if it is the holy grail answer to this when I am not in disagreement on this fact?
I'm a fan of requiring welders for armor. Or at least have the armories only restore it slowly or only the first 30 or something. But welders would make for better teamwork.
The most workable solution here, armouries heal up to a0, 30 armour, everything else has to be welded. Still allows early game marines a bit more choice in "die in 2 hits or double back for 20 seconds and fully bomb up" and stops advanced armoury humping later on. I still think this is a really horrible decision and is only used to slow down game play to NS1 level to put more 'emphasis' on each engagement.
The most workable solution here, armouries heal up to a0, 30 armour, everything else has to be welded. Still allows early game marines a bit more choice in "die in 2 hits or double back for 20 seconds and fully bomb up" and stops advanced armoury humping later on. I still think this is a really horrible decision and is only used to slow down game play to NS1 level to put more 'emphasis' on each engagement.
Fades are gonna love this. Everyone marine at 2 swipes!
IDK how anyone can say the zerg style gameplay of NS2 is better, its in no conceiveable way logical. With the current respawn rates and healing abilities of each team, battles largely are dictated by the team with larger respawn capabilities, and/or the team with the closest healing station. There is next to no strategy or overall tatics required. It basically promotes people running away from combat to heal, or just zerging over and over to kill key structures. There are far too many PvE aspects to NS2 currently, with the game overly focused on players interactions with buildings over eachother. Amories healing armor is one of many examples, which also only serves to reinforce bad marine tatics (camping, turtling, defense play). If the game was intended to be balanced around marines always having full armor, then armor would be changed to be simply a flat damage reduction value, and something that never changes. If people need any confirmation of this you need to look no further than NS1 - aliens even had focus back then and marines still did fine. The fact that the armory allows marines a no compromise t1 solution to always having full armor is bad for gameplay, and completely destroys the aliens primary combat design of hit and run. The fact that people think that armor is something that marines should always have full is quite absurd, almost as absurd as people that think 2 shoting fades while taking 8 swipes is ok.
Armories not healing armor is an improvement to gameplay IMO, and also helps reduce other issues by reinforcing the importance of welders. The net effect on balance from the change is not as huge as people make it out to be. Parts of the benefits are much more subtle, but it makes alien play much more fair throughout the game, especially when dealing with late game a3 marines as they can wear down marines without having to overly risk themselves because they are required to get the kill.
There are far too many PvE aspects to NS2 currently, with the game overly focused on players interactions with buildings over eachother. Amories healing armor is one of many examples
You are right, but to be fair though it's the smallest example. There are many other PvE aspects that take up a very large portion of the game.
For marines:
-Building/repairing structures
-Building/repairing power nodes
For aliens:
-Attacking buildings and power nodes
I would suggest that these items occupy the biggest chunk of a user's PvE time. If people really wanted to get away from PvE, then the first thing to do is remove the need for marines to build structures. Standing around for 12-15 seconds pressing a key is a lot more time consuming than the two seconds a person spends at an armory. Same for repairing. Power nodes can take even longer than 15 seconds if the person has no welder. On the alien side, sitting pressing M1 while staring at an extractor or power node isn't the highlight of gameplay.
Frankly, if people are so worried about armor healing, just impose an 'out of combat' timer of a couple seconds before being able to use the armory. You talk about two-shotting fades as being a bad thing, but two shotting marines is a good thing?
Charlie has said, and I agree, that armor is a crucial balance variable. You can't just yank armor off marines and not have it destroy balance. As I said above, of the hundreds of NS2 games I played, never ONCE did I have a marine team lose so horridly than with this mod. They lost the game on DEATHS with two comm chairs, 3 IPs, observatories, an advanced armory and proto lab. The aliens didn't destroy a single building. All they had to do was hit and run marines in their base, who couldn't repair their armor, and were subsequently two-shot and sat in the spawn queue until "Aliens Win" popped up since they were all dead.
Maybe that's your idea of a fun game, but it's not mine. Frankly, given that this was tried and removed once already, I think this is something that people should be happy to have as a mod.
Want no armor repair at armory? Server admin installs the mod and you're good to go. Let people vote with their feet. If they like it the server will be full, if they don't it will be empty. It is is popular enough then UWE may consider rolling it into the game.
This was how health repair got added to the armory. Voogru (an NS1 dev) made a mod for it, and it was so popular that it was rolled into the game. I think Sewlek should do the same. Once his mod is done, get it out there and see how people react to it. We're having big debates in here over principles, but the best thing - imho - is to let the players decide. Let them vote with their feet.
See two shotting fades is something that the alien can do nothing about, except hope that the marine he is attacking misses. Marines can do lots of different things to prevent being 2 shot. Armor is a large balance point yes, but being able to wear marines down is the staple of alien play.
You're completely ignoring the point that xDragon is making legitimately in response to "the game is balanced around having armour". If it was so important and so integral to balance, why not just turn armour upgrades into damage reduction? Do you honestly think that the act of facepalming into a building is in itself a fun component of NS2? Of course it isn't.
I don't know why you're citing the introduction of armoury health to support your argument in any case. There's a huge difference between the two and Voogru was fully aware of this, having considered and rejected the idea of armoury regeneration himself.
I personally think the game is FAR to weighted towards structure interaction (you neglected marine vs khammmmmmm) and I don't like the spammy feel of forward bases which require comparatively immense cooperation from aliens versus the brainless zombie style marine camping. The strength of these external safe havens is also a serious factor in peoples' decisions to never push, much to the game's detriment as this is when the game is at its most interesting.
I'm not even going to go into the fact that it's ridiculously hard to balance hit-and-run units versus perma-armour because that should be obvious and such a fundamental component of the way aliens play should be supported anyway. An emphasis on welders would be a fantastic introduction to the game, irrespective of the ensuing balance changes that need to take place (I actually think they would probably be positive too).
Those have to be the most laughably uncoordinated marines. Was Benny Hill music playing while the fades and lerks flew around?
These are all the people from threads LIKE THIS who support this mod. (Since you have to know of and install the mod to be able to play it) Surely you're not suggesting that everyone in this thread are completely uncoordinated individuals who have no clue how to play this game. Something tells me that you would be insulting a LOT of people here if you did so.
No, marines were not uncoordinated. In fact, marines were winning the game. We had 3 tech points locked down on Tram, two had comm chairs, all had phase gates and observatories. Proto lab was up and jetpacks were researching. Aliens had begun to start popping out a couple fades.
When you go down in two swipes, it's no contest. It's like having a marine team with armor 0 in the mid-game. You're only asking to get rolled.
So joke all you like, but these are YOUR people who support this mod that were playing. If you want to shoot yourself in the foot by calling them uncoordinated, go right ahead. If that really is true, then I should be ignoring their opinions since clearly they don't know how to play.
See two shotting fades is something that the alien can do nothing about, except hope that the marine he is attacking misses.
Excuse me? A *smart* Fade won't fly straight into the face of a marine holding a shotgun. It's like saying marines are overpowered because a skulk will die in 9 bullets if he runs straight at a marine. Yeah, if you play that way that's gonna happen.
Marines can do lots of different things to prevent being 2 shot.
Marines can't do ANYTHING to prevent being two shot if they have no armor. A Fade can blink or shadowstep in and out. A marine can't avoid a fade attack unless he happens to be sitting beside a phase gate.
The fade thing is a bit of an issue to be honest. The whole push for a nightstalker-esque fade has had lasting negative implications for the fade really. You're basically left with a problem either way, whether it's the fade dying in two shots or the marine - neither feels that fair except that at least being low on armour is avoidable on a macro scale.
This is where I feel babblers can be a HUGE help to fades. I like the proposed change to babblers that eliminates cling time, which means I can pad my Fade friend and turn two shots into 3 or 4. Frankly I'm surprised more Fades don't take advantage of this. I usually have to call out after them to offer to pad them before an attack.
So basically you're saying that the aliens need a mechanic on their side which costs p-res to compete evenly with marines that can heal for free at an armory? Smells like double standards to me. Whereas on the marine side if you're good enough you can keep a welder alive indefinitely at the measly cost of 5 pres, once babblers are shot off they're gone...so not only would you have to rely on your teammate to "heal" your armor (forced teamwork ring a bell?), but they would have to spend p-res after EVERY engagement.
sorry but your arguments are neither coherent nor consistent.
Ok so the fade can do tons of movement related things to dodge shots, but the marine just stands there and gets two swipped? Do you see how ridiculous that sounds? Your basically saying that just because one class has less movement that it instantly means they get hit by every attack. If your assuming that a fade can land perfect swipes (needed to two swipe a marine), then assuming that a marine can acutally land 2 3/4 shotgun shots is not that far fetched.
You can stack all the babblers on a fade you want its most likely not going to save him from getting 2shot. And to your point there you're paying between 1-3 pres for that 'armor' that the fade is using, not unlike buying a welder.
So basically you're saying that the aliens need a mechanic on their side which costs p-res to compete evenly with marines that can heal for free at an armory? Smells like double standards to me.
Ummm, no, that's not what I am saying - you didn't say who you were replying to. If marines can heal for free at an armory, aliens heal for free at a crag. No problems there. If marines need to buy something to heal, then aliens should too - OR they should get the device free.
My entire objection is to the COST of this. With free welders as a stock item then I really don't care if armor repair is yanked from the armory. Marines will adapt. They shouldn't have to pay for repair though. (no one recycles a weapon for the entire game, never happens, at least on pubs.)
You can stack all the babblers on a fade you want its most likely not going to save him from getting 2shot. And to your point there you're paying between 1-3 pres for that 'armor' that the fade is using, not unlike buying a welder.
With respect, have you ever tried it? Seriously, give it a shot... A babbler soaks up *30* damage before popping. Stack nine of those on a fade and you will see a difference. A single babbler can soak up 3 pellets at close range. If only half the pellets connect with the fade, then you double the number of shots needed. As for the cost, it's voluntary, I get to choose to pay for it, I'm not forced to pay for it. That's the difference.
So basically you're saying that the aliens need a mechanic on their side which costs p-res to compete evenly with marines that can heal for free at an armory? Smells like double standards to me.
Ummm, no, that's not what I am saying - you didn't say who you were replying to. If marines can heal for free at an armory, aliens heal for free at a crag. No problems there. If marines need to buy something to heal, then aliens should too - OR they should get the device free.
My entire objection is to the COST of this. With free welders as a stock item then I really don't care if armor repair is yanked from the armory. Marines will adapt. They shouldn't have to pay for repair though. (no one recycles a weapon for the entire game, never happens, at least on pubs.)
i'm responding to your assertion that fades having to rely on 'forced teamwork' (babbler armor) that costs p-res after each use is ok, which runs totally counter to your argument that forced teamwork -welders- that uses a one-time investment of p-res (or dropped by comm for t-res) is bad for the game.
you can't have it both ways, dude.
Guys, give up. He just countered your argument with babblers. This dude is on another level.
yeah it's even worse considering a marine gives up virtually nothing in terms of combat power to use a welder, while the alien team has to sacrifice a combat class to become a gorge.
You're not forced to buy a welder. You're not forced not to uninstall the game. You're not forced to add babblers to a fade. You're not forced to F4 before 10 mins when a troll comm builds sentries before... well everything else. You're not forced into anything.
Oh how I hate all these freedoms. Please, make armour be always 100% and never reduced at any time. It saves me the boredom of going back to the base to refill.
i'm responding to your assertion that fades having to rely on 'forced teamwork' (babbler armor) that costs p-res after each use is ok
It's not forced teamwork at all. It's totally voluntary. The fade doesn't NEED babblers to be at full health. The babblers are a BUFF. You want to make marines pay for welders to get BASIC HEALTH.
There's a big difference.
Bottom line, it's my CHOICE to go gorge and my CHOICE to set someone up with babblers. I don't get that choice with the welder since without it I can't be at full health. If welding a marine gave him EXTRA armor above what he normally gets, then yeah, no problem making him pay for a welder.
In any case, I think we're all wasting our time here since no one will be changing their mind. Seeing as this is just a mod (not a beta - you do know that this isn't a future build right?) I really don't see why people should get so worked up over it. Play it if you want, don't play it if you don't. However, having played the mod, I disagree with making marines pay for welders. It's my personal opinion, I speak for myself, and if others don't feel the same way, that's cool. I won't force you to support my position if you don't force me to support yours.
so what you're saying is that you want to be at full health constantly without having to rely on your teammates or spending p-res. gotcha. in which case, refer to comment about autohealing a la CoD.
so what you're saying is that you want to be at full health constantly without having to rely on your teammates or spending p-res.
What I want is a system by which BOTH teams are able to heal back to full for the same cost. If that cost is zero, cool. If the cost is marines spend 5 res for welders, and aliens spend 1 res every time their armor is repaired/regenerated, that could work too. In the end, the cost (in p-res) should be no more or less expensive for a player on either team. Ideally though, I would rather have a free means for healing - somewhere on the map - for players on both teams. When all of the fun upgrades cost p-res, IMHO it's pretty lame to ask people to spend that p-res on welders.
What's the point in trying to achieve resource parity between armour on two entirely different sides where it operates completely differently because of the vast differences in how they play. It's just an absolutely bonkers starting point and you really should check yourself before you look even more silly. I can't stress enough how poor this premise is and how weak the extrapolation you cake it in looks. You're all about the "if L, then O. L, therefore Z."
What's the point in trying to achieve resource parity between armour on two entirely different sides where it operates completely differently because of the vast differences in how they play.
They have resource parity now. So why would you upset that? Is it just a coincidence that a dual-mini EXO and an Onos both cost 75 res? Or that a bro-fist EXO and a fade both cost 50 res? Or how about a Jetpack/shottie and a lerk both costing 30 res? Despite these pairings being MASSIVELY different from one another in many ways, the costs are balanced because they are effective equals. It seems that you fail to understand just how tightly the two factions are balanced. Perhaps you should read the balance blog that Hugh posted tonight.
jp shotgun is equal to lerk.... ok I think you should stop drawing comparisons right there. The fact that both tech trees have similar costs is by no means a byproduct of design - a quick look at how alien tres often plays out can tell you all you need to know about how broken the current resource expenses are per team.
Comments
Skulk bite does 75 damage on a full hit in both of those instances. Period. Handwaving does not make the other 19 damage suddenly not happen in your first scenario. It does not scale or change. How it is applied to armor and HP is not and has never been in dispute. If armor was a flat damage reduction modifier you'd be right, but it's not. My original statement that alien damage does not scale still stands true. All armor does is an extra means on top of health to control TTK between lifeforms and attacks. TTK is what is important here. Marines can increase TTK for the aliens but the aliens cannot reduce it.
Once again, marine armor scales, alien damage does not. There is nothing incorrect or tricky about that statement.
No, I am pretty sure I am just advocating a side. It is neither wrong nor right, but another means of accomplishing something.
No, it doesn't. You are trying to argue semantics when the numbers speak for themselves. If I am an A3 marine at full health armor and you are a skulk, if you bite me I will only take 56 points in damage. Period. Full stop. End of story. Your bite doesn't land 75 damage when I am at full armor. Your bite will NEVER land 75 damage if a marine is at full armor. Your bite will only deal 75 damage if I have no armor. It's not like the bite deals 75 damage and then I get 19 points back. Those 19 points NEVER get taken off.
This is why armor is in the game. It's used to balance and scale the various encounters. This isn't my view, Charlie said as much in his high level design document. Do you want a quote?
That's the bottom line here, and it is why armor is something that you can't screw with haphazardly.
Yes they do, they are apart of the Armor count adjustment based on the damage type of the attack. In this case with a normal damage type the armor is reduced by one half of the damage allocated to it. That damage does NOT disappear. It still happened and without it the change to armor and HP count would be lower. It STILL MATTERS and absolutely affects TTK. Even more so when med packs enter the equation.
For the love of all that is good and holy THIS IS NOT IN DISPUTE. Why do you keep bringing it up as if it is the holy grail answer to this when I am not in disagreement on this fact?
This has honestly become absurd.
The most workable solution here, armouries heal up to a0, 30 armour, everything else has to be welded. Still allows early game marines a bit more choice in "die in 2 hits or double back for 20 seconds and fully bomb up" and stops advanced armoury humping later on. I still think this is a really horrible decision and is only used to slow down game play to NS1 level to put more 'emphasis' on each engagement.
Fades are gonna love this. Everyone marine at 2 swipes!
FTFY
Armories not healing armor is an improvement to gameplay IMO, and also helps reduce other issues by reinforcing the importance of welders. The net effect on balance from the change is not as huge as people make it out to be. Parts of the benefits are much more subtle, but it makes alien play much more fair throughout the game, especially when dealing with late game a3 marines as they can wear down marines without having to overly risk themselves because they are required to get the kill.
For marines:
-Building/repairing structures
-Building/repairing power nodes
For aliens:
-Attacking buildings and power nodes
I would suggest that these items occupy the biggest chunk of a user's PvE time. If people really wanted to get away from PvE, then the first thing to do is remove the need for marines to build structures. Standing around for 12-15 seconds pressing a key is a lot more time consuming than the two seconds a person spends at an armory. Same for repairing. Power nodes can take even longer than 15 seconds if the person has no welder. On the alien side, sitting pressing M1 while staring at an extractor or power node isn't the highlight of gameplay.
Frankly, if people are so worried about armor healing, just impose an 'out of combat' timer of a couple seconds before being able to use the armory. You talk about two-shotting fades as being a bad thing, but two shotting marines is a good thing?
Charlie has said, and I agree, that armor is a crucial balance variable. You can't just yank armor off marines and not have it destroy balance. As I said above, of the hundreds of NS2 games I played, never ONCE did I have a marine team lose so horridly than with this mod. They lost the game on DEATHS with two comm chairs, 3 IPs, observatories, an advanced armory and proto lab. The aliens didn't destroy a single building. All they had to do was hit and run marines in their base, who couldn't repair their armor, and were subsequently two-shot and sat in the spawn queue until "Aliens Win" popped up since they were all dead.
Maybe that's your idea of a fun game, but it's not mine. Frankly, given that this was tried and removed once already, I think this is something that people should be happy to have as a mod.
Want no armor repair at armory? Server admin installs the mod and you're good to go. Let people vote with their feet. If they like it the server will be full, if they don't it will be empty. It is is popular enough then UWE may consider rolling it into the game.
This was how health repair got added to the armory. Voogru (an NS1 dev) made a mod for it, and it was so popular that it was rolled into the game. I think Sewlek should do the same. Once his mod is done, get it out there and see how people react to it. We're having big debates in here over principles, but the best thing - imho - is to let the players decide. Let them vote with their feet.
I don't know why you're citing the introduction of armoury health to support your argument in any case. There's a huge difference between the two and Voogru was fully aware of this, having considered and rejected the idea of armoury regeneration himself.
I personally think the game is FAR to weighted towards structure interaction (you neglected marine vs khammmmmmm) and I don't like the spammy feel of forward bases which require comparatively immense cooperation from aliens versus the brainless zombie style marine camping. The strength of these external safe havens is also a serious factor in peoples' decisions to never push, much to the game's detriment as this is when the game is at its most interesting.
I'm not even going to go into the fact that it's ridiculously hard to balance hit-and-run units versus perma-armour because that should be obvious and such a fundamental component of the way aliens play should be supported anyway. An emphasis on welders would be a fantastic introduction to the game, irrespective of the ensuing balance changes that need to take place (I actually think they would probably be positive too).
No, marines were not uncoordinated. In fact, marines were winning the game. We had 3 tech points locked down on Tram, two had comm chairs, all had phase gates and observatories. Proto lab was up and jetpacks were researching. Aliens had begun to start popping out a couple fades.
When you go down in two swipes, it's no contest. It's like having a marine team with armor 0 in the mid-game. You're only asking to get rolled.
So joke all you like, but these are YOUR people who support this mod that were playing. If you want to shoot yourself in the foot by calling them uncoordinated, go right ahead. If that really is true, then I should be ignoring their opinions since clearly they don't know how to play.
Pick your side.
Excuse me? A *smart* Fade won't fly straight into the face of a marine holding a shotgun. It's like saying marines are overpowered because a skulk will die in 9 bullets if he runs straight at a marine. Yeah, if you play that way that's gonna happen.
Marines can't do ANYTHING to prevent being two shot if they have no armor. A Fade can blink or shadowstep in and out. A marine can't avoid a fade attack unless he happens to be sitting beside a phase gate.
sorry but your arguments are neither coherent nor consistent.
You can stack all the babblers on a fade you want its most likely not going to save him from getting 2shot. And to your point there you're paying between 1-3 pres for that 'armor' that the fade is using, not unlike buying a welder.
My entire objection is to the COST of this. With free welders as a stock item then I really don't care if armor repair is yanked from the armory. Marines will adapt. They shouldn't have to pay for repair though. (no one recycles a weapon for the entire game, never happens, at least on pubs.)
With respect, have you ever tried it? Seriously, give it a shot... A babbler soaks up *30* damage before popping. Stack nine of those on a fade and you will see a difference. A single babbler can soak up 3 pellets at close range. If only half the pellets connect with the fade, then you double the number of shots needed. As for the cost, it's voluntary, I get to choose to pay for it, I'm not forced to pay for it. That's the difference.
you can't have it both ways, dude.
yeah it's even worse considering a marine gives up virtually nothing in terms of combat power to use a welder, while the alien team has to sacrifice a combat class to become a gorge.
Oh how I hate all these freedoms. Please, make armour be always 100% and never reduced at any time. It saves me the boredom of going back to the base to refill.
Sigh.
There's a big difference.
Bottom line, it's my CHOICE to go gorge and my CHOICE to set someone up with babblers. I don't get that choice with the welder since without it I can't be at full health. If welding a marine gave him EXTRA armor above what he normally gets, then yeah, no problem making him pay for a welder.
In any case, I think we're all wasting our time here since no one will be changing their mind. Seeing as this is just a mod (not a beta - you do know that this isn't a future build right?) I really don't see why people should get so worked up over it. Play it if you want, don't play it if you don't. However, having played the mod, I disagree with making marines pay for welders. It's my personal opinion, I speak for myself, and if others don't feel the same way, that's cool. I won't force you to support my position if you don't force me to support yours.