Just going to go out on a craaaazy limb here, and say, maybe give it a chance? Actually play a good number of games on it, let people adapt to the new layout, and figure out how best to play on it? I know, I sound like a crazy person.
Brb, played 1 round on new Docking and feel ready to come on UWE forums and trash the map.
EDIT:
South West has always been a problem. Aliens rarely if ever took it as a Hive location, it was always dead ground for marines who had locker/terminal and if not it became the 2nd tech point for marines while they turtled out for exos etc. (Generally from my experience playing pub).
Enjoyed the changes to the places that needed it. Will have to play more to see how it goes.
You don't actually need to play it. You can just look at the map and see how easy it is to deny all alien expansion. I'm not crying cause I was alien and got stomped. I'm crying cause I went marine and stomped non-stop.
Maintenance suffers the same problem of 12 second marines denying it. Stability is even easier to enter now as a marine to kill it and with that junction from courtyard, you can deny departures by just cyst killing.
It is quite obvious that the same designer(s) of descent re-designed docking. If you don't know what descent is, it is the new map that is so bad that most server admins remove it from the rotation. So, now there are two maps to remove from the rotation. The ONLY thing that needed to change in docking was stability. It was too easy for marines to snipe the RT. Please roll this one back guys.
Can't say that the new docking is bad, but I can say that old docking was relatively alright. Aside from that god damned RT in stability. Too easy for marine maxxiumm snipage.
I played docking and everybody had a hell of a time. I love the changes. And for Decent I sure hope the same guy make more: it challenge the "I want to turn in circle in a sandboxe map" syndrome and it's fine like that. It is big for sure but I haven't seen anybody having such a hard time figuring out different strategies with it.
Also NS2 is a game in which you can develop some die hard habits.
Just going to go out on a craaaazy limb here, and say, maybe give it a chance? Actually play a good number of games on it, let people adapt to the new layout, and figure out how best to play on it? I know, I sound like a crazy person.
Normally I would agree with you, but I've played far too many games on Veil to know that 4 tech point maps don't work in pubs, especially at higher player counts. Pub games on 4 tech point maps are always either a one-sided beatdown or a slow, even game that ends the instant one team gets a slight advantage. There is no back and forth. There are no comebacks. It just isn't fun.
I prefer this version; but I really feel like the south-west should be remade. Having both landing path and caf as big spaces with only 1 rt for both...
Maybe place Bar between Caf and Landing Pad (switch caf and bar) ? That would feel more... natural ? (can't find the right word); just that something isn't right when you have such a big space unused; even thought it is a carrier of NS2 history.
Of all the maps you could have gone back and done massive remakes for, they decided on Docking?? Regardless of whether the map is even balanced it seemed like it was dead last on the list of maps that needed any kind of fix other than to Stability. Did they decide that Mineshat, Refinery or Descent were perfectly okay, but Docking was a terrible wrecked map that needed ANY kind of patching?
Mineshaft is easily the worst map in the game, it says something when people are not having any fun while winning or losing, marine or alien. Its just unpleasant to play overall, especially as aliens when nearly every game starts in Cave.
Hope the Refinery update adds more unreachable overhead RT points for aliens because win or lose its fun as hell to completely troll the marines as Gorge on a pub server. Oh and Descent needs to have 50x as many difficult to navigate samey looking corridors.
arggg all this talk of the redesign. Now I'm counting down the hours until I finish work so I can check this masterpiece out!
Courtyard --> lockers is about 15 seconds.
Courtyard --> Maintenance is about 10 seconds
Courtyard --> Stability is about 10 seconds
Courtyard --> Departures is about 10 seconds
I actually disliked old Docking. I thought old Docking was more marine favored (esp with Locker spawn). The new Docking isn't without problems though. From my experience, Locker is still a very strong start for aliens since it is the most central of the spawns. Having Bar as a free RT is nice too since it is a pretty far distance away despite being a forward expansion. @nachos Maintenance may be a short distance, but the room itself is VERY alien favored. a0w0 marines that enter it should die pretty easily. In fact, I feel that a lot of the rooms have been switched to being alien favored with much more claustrophobic elements and more cover. The only room I feel became more marine oriented was the flipping of Generator, although I approve of this.
However, Departures spawn on aliens is an absolute mess. The natural expansions are both VERY easy to harass and cut off as marines. East Wing is dangerously close to Terminal and Junction has a high incline up to the marines. Fighting in areas with stairs tends to favor marines since moving on them as a skulk is very awkward. From the upper position, you can deny cysts. Should you manage to get a good push into this room, you can go straight to Generator since you'll reach it before any reasonable comm would drop that RT. Now you're denying the natural hive expansion, and Generator is a marine's wet dream to fight in.
I've got to play more to see what my final opinions are of Locker and Generator spawns relative power, but I feel confident that Departures should NOT be a valid alien spawn in its current layout.
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
I had a few fantastic games on this. It feels much more dynamic than previous docking. Constant pressure from both teams, whoever doesn't buckle wins. The only problem is that if marines secure a cross hive, it's a stomp, but that's true in general I think.
I don't have an opinion on 4 tech points vs 5 tech points, but Cafeteria is clearly still designed as a tech point room and it just doesn't look right. Even if it were shrunk to normal room size, the map looks oddly lopsided now. The Central -> Cafeteria route makes Landing Pad seem like a completely superfluous room.
It is quite obvious that the same designer(s) of descent re-designed docking. If you don't know what descent is, it is the new map that is so bad that most server admins remove it from the rotation. So, now there are two maps to remove from the rotation. The ONLY thing that needed to change in docking was stability. It was too easy for marines to snipe the RT. Please roll this one back guys.
That's my first impression as well, new docking feels like a repeat of everything I hate about descent.
The problem is finally courtyard,you can attack everything and faster... in marine.... At start ,marine is courtyard before alien... If marine get courtyard marine won
Maybe with more practice ,we can block some key entry... and alien can won easier...
But the first impression is bad... I go stability or maintenance (you have only 2 entry to check when u come in the actual courtyard
And alien can't defend faster in their own rt... maybe we need to do something like that...
http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=130613101241225555.png
Red : block the passage terminal/courtyard
Green is the new passage
And maybe a new vent... at eastwing !
We have only 4 teckpoint
The second main natural for marine ,will be locker room
And the second main natural for alien will be departure.
If alien is too op ,just delete one or two vent...
I rarely post on these forums. But I felt like I had to drop my 2p on this one.
I'm not a huge fan. The old docking wasn't without problems, the arc of departures from north point and the fact stability pretty much intercepted generator and departures meant it was far too valuable a position to lose. Really, all that was needed were some minor changes.
I've played quite a bit on the new docking now. The map feels schizophrenic, the top half just doesn't fit. It's just this same old "twisty and tight" formula used on descent, right angles and corners for the sake of corners, its also aesthetically bland in the new areas. The removal of cafe tech point also turns it into another veil, which we really don't need. Descent at least has it's own personality and theme.
I'd really like the old docking back, most of the reactions in public are negative, taking into consideration, 90% of players don't post on these forums.
Lastly; This game has been out for what, 9 months now?. To make such a radical change to a standard map that people have grown accustomed to is a bit risque. You've left it too long to make such huge changes to something so very familiar to the players imo.
Apart from that, top work on the new binding layer.
Can't say that the new docking is bad, but I can say that old docking was relatively alright. Aside from that god damned RT in stability. Too easy for marine maxxiumm snipage.
No.
No no no no no.
Old Docking was horribly Marine biased since release. Marines go to Stability and win, the end. With the new Locker and Departures spawns, it got even worse.
However the new version plays, the old one was not alright
Can't say that the new docking is bad, but I can say that old docking was relatively alright. Aside from that god damned RT in stability. Too easy for marine maxxiumm snipage.
No.
No no no no no.
Old Docking was horribly Marine biased since release. Marines go to Stability and win, the end. With the new Locker and Departures spawns, it got even worse.
However the new version plays, the old one was not alright
OR marines lose the fight at stability because it's right outside the aliens front door (if they can ever make it across courtyard to begin with), and while the marines are preoccupied aliens set up in terminal or lockers. Naturally terminal spawn for marines is much easier for them since it's a bit closer to stab and lockers is a little harder to hold.
I don't have an opinion on 4 tech points vs 5 tech points, but Cafeteria is clearly still designed as a tech point room and it just doesn't look right. Even if it were shrunk to normal room size, the map looks oddly lopsided now. The Central -> Cafeteria route makes Landing Pad seem like a completely superfluous room.
Agreed.
I had the thought of merging central access with bar and removing Caf and landing pad all together. That side of the map still feels like you are traveling backwards when the marines need to be pressuring forwards. Too soon to make those kinds of changes though I think until we confirm the 4 TP map works.
It is quite obvious that the same designer(s) of descent re-designed docking. If you don't know what descent is, it is the new map that is so bad that most server admins remove it from the rotation. So, now there are two maps to remove from the rotation....
Comments
Wish there was another word tho.. it feels one word short, somehow.
:-P
I feel it would have been better to have caf replace courtyard and move in both landing and bar in it's place to shorten the large useless areas.
Good that they changed stability.
EDIT:
South West has always been a problem. Aliens rarely if ever took it as a Hive location, it was always dead ground for marines who had locker/terminal and if not it became the 2nd tech point for marines while they turtled out for exos etc. (Generally from my experience playing pub).
Enjoyed the changes to the places that needed it. Will have to play more to see how it goes.
0.o
I do think you should give it at least a few days of playing various teams.
Also NS2 is a game in which you can develop some die hard habits.
Normally I would agree with you, but I've played far too many games on Veil to know that 4 tech point maps don't work in pubs, especially at higher player counts. Pub games on 4 tech point maps are always either a one-sided beatdown or a slow, even game that ends the instant one team gets a slight advantage. There is no back and forth. There are no comebacks. It just isn't fun.
Maybe place Bar between Caf and Landing Pad (switch caf and bar) ? That would feel more... natural ? (can't find the right word); just that something isn't right when you have such a big space unused; even thought it is a carrier of NS2 history.
Mineshaft is easily the worst map in the game, it says something when people are not having any fun while winning or losing, marine or alien. Its just unpleasant to play overall, especially as aliens when nearly every game starts in Cave.
Hope the Refinery update adds more unreachable overhead RT points for aliens because win or lose its fun as hell to completely troll the marines as Gorge on a pub server. Oh and Descent needs to have 50x as many difficult to navigate samey looking corridors.
Courtyard --> lockers is about 15 seconds.
Courtyard --> Maintenance is about 10 seconds
Courtyard --> Stability is about 10 seconds
Courtyard --> Departures is about 10 seconds
So much marine pressure it's crazy
However, Departures spawn on aliens is an absolute mess. The natural expansions are both VERY easy to harass and cut off as marines. East Wing is dangerously close to Terminal and Junction has a high incline up to the marines. Fighting in areas with stairs tends to favor marines since moving on them as a skulk is very awkward. From the upper position, you can deny cysts. Should you manage to get a good push into this room, you can go straight to Generator since you'll reach it before any reasonable comm would drop that RT. Now you're denying the natural hive expansion, and Generator is a marine's wet dream to fight in.
I've got to play more to see what my final opinions are of Locker and Generator spawns relative power, but I feel confident that Departures should NOT be a valid alien spawn in its current layout.
That's my first impression as well, new docking feels like a repeat of everything I hate about descent.
Maybe with more practice ,we can block some key entry... and alien can won easier...
But the first impression is bad... I go stability or maintenance (you have only 2 entry to check when u come in the actual courtyard
And alien can't defend faster in their own rt... maybe we need to do something like that...
http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=130613101241225555.png
Red : block the passage terminal/courtyard
Green is the new passage
And maybe a new vent... at eastwing !
We have only 4 teckpoint
The second main natural for marine ,will be locker room
And the second main natural for alien will be departure.
If alien is too op ,just delete one or two vent...
I'm not a huge fan. The old docking wasn't without problems, the arc of departures from north point and the fact stability pretty much intercepted generator and departures meant it was far too valuable a position to lose. Really, all that was needed were some minor changes.
I've played quite a bit on the new docking now. The map feels schizophrenic, the top half just doesn't fit. It's just this same old "twisty and tight" formula used on descent, right angles and corners for the sake of corners, its also aesthetically bland in the new areas. The removal of cafe tech point also turns it into another veil, which we really don't need. Descent at least has it's own personality and theme.
I'd really like the old docking back, most of the reactions in public are negative, taking into consideration, 90% of players don't post on these forums.
Lastly; This game has been out for what, 9 months now?. To make such a radical change to a standard map that people have grown accustomed to is a bit risque. You've left it too long to make such huge changes to something so very familiar to the players imo.
Apart from that, top work on the new binding layer.
No no no no no.
Old Docking was horribly Marine biased since release. Marines go to Stability and win, the end. With the new Locker and Departures spawns, it got even worse.
However the new version plays, the old one was not alright
Maintenance and Stability are still too easy to hit. If you start in generator you are in trouble.
OR marines lose the fight at stability because it's right outside the aliens front door (if they can ever make it across courtyard to begin with), and while the marines are preoccupied aliens set up in terminal or lockers. Naturally terminal spawn for marines is much easier for them since it's a bit closer to stab and lockers is a little harder to hold.
Agreed.
I had the thought of merging central access with bar and removing Caf and landing pad all together. That side of the map still feels like you are traveling backwards when the marines need to be pressuring forwards. Too soon to make those kinds of changes though I think until we confirm the 4 TP map works.
lol