While I understand your outlaying point, that maps should concentrate on being interesting and memorable rather than balanced, I really think you've dropped the ball in your argument.
You're saying that the new Docking has sacrificed interesting locations from the old Docking, and those have been replaced with generic sci-fi corridors. Let's think about for a moment what those locations that got changed or removed were. Maintenance, stability monitoring, north point, courtyard, generator. Out of these, only generator and courtyard had any personality whatsoever in the old version with the others being just what you were describing; bland corridors and rooms with little variation. Generator stayed mostly the same, but is now much more interesting, because fighting happens in the entire room instead of only the easternmost quarter. Courtyard still retains its personality, and at least in my opinion, is much more imposing than it was before. The new maintenance is certainly more interesting than the old corner and corridor, and stability remains mostly the same with some added corridors in its vicinity. So what exactly is the problem? My first thought about the new docking was how much more interesting these new rooms are both visually and gameplaywise compared to the old ones. The really unique-to-NS2 rooms in Docking are the clinical rooms of 'residence', i.e. cafeteria, bar, locker rooms, ball court, east wing and perhaps even departures. These didn't change at all. All the personality Docking had before it retains.
And then you drop the ball down the crevice when you state that Descent is suffering the same problem. Samey, bland scifi-corridors? What map have you been playing? Descent is by far the most visually stunning map in the current NS2 repertoire, and almost every single room is unique. Drone bay has imposing drone props, observation with its windows has the most stunning view in the game, monorail changes the color scheme from clean grey to red and has a memorable crashed train prop, energy flow with its generator or whats-it-not, fabrication a bit bland but still clearly unique, plaza along with club being the absolute prize flower in the garden that is NS2, with I'm sure not a single player forgetting seeing it after first having played the map, launch control with its strange geometry and strong theme, gravity control with the imposing effects, unorthodox room shape and lack of floor and, last but not least, hydroanalysis with its perhaps bland geometry, but memorable central prop. No map in the current list of official NS2 maps really compares, and I can't really say that this is even a matter of opinion. There is a reason that Descent was at the time of its release the most expensive map ever produced by UWE.
The "problem" is just that some nice rooms were taken away from players (totally remade), instead of trying to fix them. People don't like stuff they like removed, if they see no good reason for it ("Why couldn't it just be fixed?"). Even if they get something else instead. It's not only about familiarity (heyo @moultano), it's about seeing no necessity for drastic changes instead of careful fixes. It's a bit like the arguments against the BT mod, entirely remaking aspects of the game instead of improving from the status quo.
People see this and think "this stuff was good, why was it removed and the mapper's hard work was in vain and this plays totally different now, instead of being improved and the work invested into other things". It seems like a waste of effort and an unnecessary loss of something with good potential.
Anyways, I was trying to explain WHY these kinds of complaints appear, not so much take a side here.
@Therius: Yes, the new Docking is in no way bad, I agree that Courtyard is better than ever, but the map *plays* entirely different. (New) players liked the map because it was more forgiving than the other "competitive" maps, and it played uniquely.
About Descent, I was NOT talking about the visuals. Of course Descent looks great. It's about the spatial and gameplay quality of the rooms.
Has any interesting fight ever occurred in Fabrication, Plaza, Launch, Bay, Shipping, Receiving, Club? Not for me! The entire top-left side of the map (except Gravity) *plays* quite boring.
Again, I was explaining WHY people dislike Descent more than other maps (that just seems to be the case, nobody ever votes for Descent and people often complain when the map comes up), and Docking was so popular.
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My guess/hope is Classic Docking will be on many servers soon (I'd also like to see the release version of Docking, with the Courtyard RT and hilarious old East Wing). Not because new Docking is bad or "worse", but because it plays totally different and people liked the gameplay on the old version.
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In my opinion, if you want to fix Docking starting from the old version without having a huge remake like the new version, and if you want to retain the feel of it: Locker rooms must be moved west so you no longer can utterly dominate Courtyard from it. It should be as "far" away from Courtyard as Terminal. Everything else should come after this, fixing Stability/Maintenance, etc.
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Let's see how it goes, the map is only a few days old atm
edit:
Anybody know where to find the old (248) and release (227) versions of Docking? Didn't find them in the old build zips. @dux would it be ok for you if people uploaded old versions of the map on the workshop? (there's already a 248 version I think)
I'm nowhere near good enough to compliment any balance changes, but I think the new maintenance and courtyard are excellent upgrades. No idea how the new passages around stability will play out, but they also look great. All the new rooms/corridors have much more interesting height variation and obstacles. Those things make any battle more fun.
But I don't understand cafe. It has changed a lot in the short time I've been playing this game, and seems it's always been a problem child. Before it seemed out of the way, an afterthought to marines and just another place to harass as aliens. The changes to central access were a big improvement. But still, aliens never took cafe except to help stage a final assault when losing marines refuse to concede. Getting rid of the TP is one solution, but leaving the RT makes the room even more of a problem. Now it's just a harass point, far from the rest of battle where it's only strategic value is economic.
I'm not sure about the travel distances, but it seems like the hike from terminal to lockers through cafe/bar is laborious, far more so than the route to departures via east wing. Going that way, once RTs are up, is a huge waste of time. Having to run back through there only to stop harassment, without the benefit of controlling a major corridor while you do so, makes cafe/bar little more than a chore for both teams. It's just too out of the way and maybe just maybe it's best to just throw out the baby with the bathwater. It's hard as an artist to work so hard and so long on something and admit that it no longer serves the bigger picture. I'm just not sure what that bigger picture is. It was a 5TP map. If that's not the case anymore, then I don't know what purpose cafe serves.
edit:
Anybody know where to find the old (248) and release (227) versions of Docking? Didn't find them in the old build zips. @dux would it be ok for you if people uploaded old versions of the map on the workshop? (there's already a 248 version I think)
Well someone already uploaded 248 here on workshop:
edit:
Anybody know where to find the old (248) and release (227) versions of Docking? Didn't find them in the old build zips. @dux would it be ok for you if people uploaded old versions of the map on the workshop? (there's already a 248 version I think)
Well someone already uploaded 248 here on workshop:
^Idk how far back you want to go man. The second link is the docking the game released with but Idk how to get it on workshop. Old old docking does look pretty cool though now that I compare all versions. Courtyard had a nicer atmosphere and east wing was neat. Maybe it is just me liking the old version idk. Nice to see the reflection effects work on the map in east wing.
I meant the workshop one that was entitled "Docking Classic" when it's using the 2nd most recent version. The one I'd call classic was the release version, which I see you included.
I too would love to see what amazing map Robotix can make... I mean it's obvious he knows what he's doing 100%! He's pretty much got it all figured out... Please share.
Yes, because I totally said that the map testers/makers were bad and that I could easily do a much better job.
Oh wait...
Get over yourself. I criticize a map and everyone involved gets overly butthurt because they can't take the negativity...
I think in general the better you can balance a map for competitive play the better it translates to public play. I don't understand the argument that the new Docking has been designed solely with competitive players in mind. What argument is there that the maps now ruined for pub play simply because it's moving in a more balanced direction overall?
How are two even teams in a pub on Docking going to find the map broken in ways that two comp teams won't?
You can probably pick a few other e-sports games and find that the most popular maps are ones used in competitive play.
Dust2/Inferno
Bloodrun/Furious Heights/Campgrounds
Summit/Tram
Lost Temple/Daybreak
I think the reason behind that is once you get a good balanced map it becomes fun for everyone. It filters up from lowest level to highest level of play. There are exceptions though, I have a weakness for playing Mineshaft. :P
EDIT: (From what I said earlier about South West area of map):
South West has always been a problem. Aliens rarely if ever took it as a Hive location, it was always dead ground for marines who had locker/terminal and if not it became the 2nd tech point for marines while they turtled out for exos etc. (Generally from my experience playing pub).
Arguing that as a point now just because of the changes to other areas of the map holds no merit.
As for your point on balance in other esports, I can only comment on Starcraft 2. First of all, Lost Temple was a terrible map that most people disliked, but it took Blizzard forever to remove it. Secondly, balance does transfer on down through the skill levels as well as, at least in part, player counts. However, the one thing that almost never works for vastly different player counts is the maps. Imagine trying to play a 4v4 on Daybreak. Sure, Daybreak is a great 1v1 map, but playing a 4v4 on it simply wouldn't work.
The same is true for NS2. Four tech point maps might work great for 12 player games, but they don't work at all for 20+ player games. And before someone comes in here and says "Herp derp, nobody cares about large player count servers", realize that the vast majority of public players enjoy them as is proven by the popularity of larger servers. With only four tech points, it is really easy for one side to hold three tech points and just dominate the other team, even if teams aren't stacked. Even if both sides manage to hold two tech points each, the instant one side gets a slight advantage, they just snowball to an easy victory. There is no back and forth. There is no chance for a comeback.
Compare this to 5 tech point maps where back and forth action is very prevalent and base trades are common. Losing a tech point when there are 5 isn't an instantly lost game because you either have one to spare or can take another one as it is very difficult to defend 4 techpoints at once.
Couple that with the fact that Docking was the most popular map in public games and you end up with this thread. If this had been done to Refinery, the mappers wouldn't have received nearly as much flak for the changes.
To be completely honest, they aren't really helping the situation.
Sometimes you need to get aggressive to get the point across to people who just don't understand, much like the real world buddy; you keep not understanding something I'm going to to get physical and throw a nice right hook and send you down to stars ave.
People are saying, this and that sucks but not providing any reasons as to why; this is considered garbage feedback
If you need to resort to violence to make your point, then clearly it wasn't a very good point to begin with. I'm fine with some sarcastic/funny remarks when needed, but it shouldn't be done in this thread when tempers were already flaring. Cooler heads should prevail.
And there has been a lot of good feedback on this thread, but it happens to be surrounded by not-so-good feedback (such as the original post). Unfortunately, people are lumping all of the feedback into the bad category and throwing it out without much thought.
Wow....people are acting like there can never be any more changes to a computer file......
Changes give information which bring more changes.
Who says this is the final version of Docking?
Unfortunately, dux said they were going to focus on Biodome until that was released, which means we could be stuck with sub-par-Docking for months. People don't like it and want it changed back sooner rather than later. Besides, how can there be changes is nobody ever says anything about it?
A lot of unique spots (like the easily camped vent from Departures to Stability, or the long hallway in maintenance, or Ball Court which is Skulk hell, or the annoyingly exposed power node in release build 228 Departures ... the entire map was made of unique spots!) created interesting gameplay, even if some were technically "imbalanced". People don't mind these "imbalances", they like them (unless they were too bad, and some were consequentially improved/removed). These spots make maps interesting in the first place. Making the map more fair and balanced should not be done by watering down these spots one by one, but by balancing the inequalities of the map so overall no team or spawn location is too biased. Single rooms can be "imbalanced", because being interesting/exciting/unique trumps being "balanced" (except for comp players )
Most of what you are describing here is just a byproduct of familiarity. Locations are "memorable" literally because you "remember" them from previous games. When docking was first released, nobody had any association with different parts of the map being annoying or difficult. They built that up over time after playing many games on it. The same will be true of this iteration of docking. As an example, marines camping the western entrance to departures are going to be super super annoying. They can just gun you down in the choke of the door on the walkway, and set up a comfortable base behind it. This is going to make for a lot of interesting battles, but nobody knows it yet. Give it time.
Almost every time a new map is released once a game is mature, people say they don't like it. This is independent of the quality of the map. It's just a matter of familiarity. The map seems to lack the same "soul" of previous maps even if everything about it is objectively better. That "soul" is just the number of games you've already played on it and the memories you've built up there.
@dux I think what you've done with the top right of the map is fantastic. Courtyard went from being a big pile of crates to being an epic location. The new entrance to departures is really slick, and I've already had more interesting battles in the new maintenance than I ever had in the old one. The one thing I'd say is that I feel like somehow the lighting got less saturated in generator hive and the surrounding rooms. I remember those rooms as being distinctly blue, and I miss that now.
What you say on new maps is completely true, but it isn't why this thread is here. If you consider the new Docking to be a new map (with a complete redesign, that isn't much of a stretch), then you have to realize that they completely removed the old Docking, which was a player favorite. If they had added the new map and called it "Landing" or something while keeping Docking, I'd be fine with it. While I don't like the new map, I know that my opinion is not universal and that different people like different things.
Please stop spreading this misinformation, the mapper has already explained that the changes were not made for comp only.
Considering the changes that were done, and the thread that specifically says the changes were for competitive play, and that the competitive community is the only one asked for feedback, then yes, it is true that the new Docking was made for competitive play. If public play had been in mind, then we wouldn't even be having this conversation.
That is not "Docking Classic"... I miss the old old version
I think Docking is easily the map that has undergone the most drastic changes in NS2, both in terms of sheer layout and aesthetic. followed by probably Tram. This is the "old" docking... I'm pretty sure there have been people who have hated, and people who have loved every version. This one is no different.
I'm still baffled at how you can say that the old locations in Docking were significantly more 'unique' or memorable than the new ones. I just cannot see it. Maintenance, for example, along with north point were easily the most boring rooms in the entire map, in my opinion. Visually, spatially, however you like it.
Also, your arguments of map x never being played on pubs or map y being liked the most on pubs is flimsy and anecdotal at best. For me, on pubs, mineshaft is easily the least played map, next to refinery, with summit and tram taking the shared first spot. Docking comes a close second. I checked this from ns2stats, and I never choose a server based on the map, and usually play for at least 5 rounds in a row without leaving because of a certain map, so I think this is a rather good sampling of maps played most on pubs (on those specific servers I visit, I agree). I challenge you to show me your pub play map pie chart to back up mineshaft being loved on pubs and tram never being played on pubs
I can't help it, but it strongly seems to me that you're mistaking personal preference of maps and locations and the feeling of 'uniqueness' tied to those locations that you know so well and play often with actual merits of those locations. Those locations aren't more memorable than others, but you've made them more memorable for yourself through getting addicted in them.
Comm chair in Cafeteria being removed is definitely an improvement imo. I feel if courtyard had 2 res nodes and maintenance's hallway to generator was shortened it would be a game changer. Maintenance is where marines love to drop an phase gate and rush into generator, now they have direct access to the hive since generator was flipped. Stability undergoes the same fate, but at least gorges can bomb it from the vent, and it's a bit more accessible and more difficult to hold down than maintenance.
I feel the northern end of the map is overdone, take reference from tram, the layout is pretty much the same in comm chair locations, but it works out better. http://dev.kmem.info/ns2/ns2_tram.jpg
I feel if courtyard had 2 res nodes and maintenance's hallway to generator was shortened it would be a game changer.
Giving courtyard 1 res node would do really good things to the map I think. Right now, since stability is no longer a vulnerable point, it isn't essential for aliens to hold courtyard, so very little fighting happens there compared to old docking, which is a shame since it's such a great arena.
As for your point on balance in other esports, I can only comment on Starcraft 2. First of all, Lost Temple was a terrible map that most people disliked, but it took Blizzard forever to remove it. Secondly, balance does transfer on down through the skill levels as well as, at least in part, player counts. However, the one thing that almost never works for vastly different player counts is the maps. Imagine trying to play a 4v4 on Daybreak. Sure, Daybreak is a great 1v1 map, but playing a 4v4 on it simply wouldn't work.
The reason I included Lost Temple is because it's a good example of a competitive map that was broken and went through revision after revision. Things like sieging the 6 main gas from the 9 start position, sieging the 12 ramp from the 3 start position and sieging the 12 nat from the 3 start pos were all things that were changed over time as useful feedback circulated. I don't know when you started playing SC originally, but LT was one of the main maps used in tournaments for awhile before newer maps came out that suited the changing meta better. I remember having about 50 versions of that map alone in my maps folder from all the revisions and different tourney versions. Don't really know where you get all this info that most people disliked it. It did become out-dated though.
Also, I wouldn't use SC maps as an argument for player count. Simply because those maps are mainly designed for 1on1, 2on2, etc. I'd be more inclined to use Dust2/Inferno as an example of competitive maps that are some of the more popular maps in public play. What is your opinion on Summit and Tram in pub play? Do they feel horrible because they are 'comp' maps?
Your point on player count is going to be an issue on any map, not just Docking. I also highly doubt that the new version was only played in a 6on6 scrim setting. Give it some time and you might find out it plays ok in larger servers as well as smaller ones.
Anyway, my overall direction was that the new Docking seems to be addressing some of the issues that were in the last version, such as arcing hives and Stability being crappy. I can't really talk about the 4 tech points because I haven't played the map much since release and the only other map we have to go off is Veil, which is completely different. Dux has already mentioned that if the 4TP becomes a big issue he will simply add it back in.
@YMICrazy502
Thanks! Will see if I can get it onto the workshop, no idea how to do that atm.
@Therius: Generator was just such a cool room, and Stability with it's vents and connections to Gen/Departures/Maint was also cool. But well.
Again, I'm just giving my version WHY people complain and bring up Descent.
As for your point on balance in other esports, I can only comment on Starcraft 2. First of all, Lost Temple was a terrible map that most people disliked, but it took Blizzard forever to remove it. Secondly, balance does transfer on down through the skill levels as well as, at least in part, player counts. However, the one thing that almost never works for vastly different player counts is the maps. Imagine trying to play a 4v4 on Daybreak. Sure, Daybreak is a great 1v1 map, but playing a 4v4 on it simply wouldn't work.
Also, I wouldn't use SC maps as an argument for player count. Simply because those maps are mainly designed for 1on1, 2on2, etc. I'd be more inclined to use Dust2/Inferno as an example of competitive maps that are some of the more popular maps in public play. What is your opinion on Summit and Tram in pub play? Do they feel horrible because they are 'comp' maps?
Your point on player count is going to be an issue on any map, not just Docking. I also highly doubt that the new version was only played in a 6on6 scrim setting. Give it some time and you might find out it plays ok in larger servers as well as smaller ones.
Anyway, my overall direction was that the new Docking seems to be addressing some of the issues that were in the last version, such as arcing hives and Stability being crappy. I can't really talk about the 4 tech points because I haven't played the map much since release and the only other map we have to go off is Veil, which is completely different. Dux has already mentioned that if the 4TP becomes a big issue he will simply add it back in.
It has nothing to do with being competitive (I know, I know, my complaints seem to focus on competitive). Summit and Tram are both great maps at higher player counts, but that is because they have 5TP in each of them. 4TP does not work in high player count servers.
Honestly, the new Docking isn't that bad of a map; if it wasn't 4TP, I would probably love it. The problem is that it is only 4TP, leaving Cafeteria, Landing Pad, and Bar as ghost towns and causing the problem of always having one-sided games. I just got done commanding a ~5 vs. ~5 game as Marines, where we each had 2TP and didn't do much to each other until a few Jetpackers managed to kill one of the Hives even though there were 2 Onii. Less than a minute later, the 2nd Hive was dead and the game was over. Boring. It is even worse at higher player counts.
All comments about the new Docking were negative. As soon as the game was over, we changed the map.
The problem of stability monitoring still exists in your mock up. There was a reason the north end of the map expanded and generator specifically was flipped in 249. Docking in 248 was a terribly imbalanced map that had a single room that marines could lock down 2 techpoints with ease.
But generator is exactly the same room, with the difference that the other side has a platform that you can build on too. This combined with the fact that the res node and the tech point are on the opposite sides of the room means that the entire room is now used for encounters, while the old docking mostly used the vicinity of the tech point, with the rest of the room just being that much background.
Good job on docking so far, It's a good step forward. Needs some final polishing.
Cafe/terminal need to be merged(smaller in size if this will be made into marine start) - make landing pad a rt spot - redesign eastwing into landing pad.
Departues for aliens is a old pipeline start. Very hard to get easy rts that are close. Re-think east wing rt placement/room design.
The vent in stability needs to be fixed, i can snipe maintenance go thru that vent and kill stab without seeing an alien (maybe less marine friendly from maintenance)
This map atm is still heavily marine biased, Very easy to lock aliens down. Mainly thats becuase of the easy access from locker/terminal into courtyard.
Awesome upgrade. I absolutely despised Docking. Wasn't the win rate for Locker Room start something like 65%? How on earth could people be protesting this change?
Awesome upgrade. I absolutely despised Docking. Wasn't the win rate for Locker Room start something like 65%? How on earth could people be protesting this change?
No. Locker Rooms had the same win percentage as the other starts.
The problem of stability monitoring still exists in your mock up. There was a reason the north end of the map expanded and generator specifically was flipped in 249. Docking in 248 was a terribly imbalanced map that had a single room that marines could lock down 2 techpoints with ease.
the rational was: marines can't pressure stability res as easily, and locking down the new maintenance room would be tough. gen or depart start should grab 3 rts pretty easily. putting landing pad rt in would keep a marine or two focused away from the front line. if aliens went term then a quick 2nd hive in caf is easier with 3 rts.
The problem of stability monitoring still exists in your mock up. There was a reason the north end of the map expanded and generator specifically was flipped in 249. Docking in 248 was a terribly imbalanced map that had a single room that marines could lock down 2 techpoints with ease.
the rational was: marines can't pressure stability res as easily, and locking down the new maintenance room would be tough. gen or depart start should grab 3 rts pretty easily. putting landing pad rt in would keep a marine or two focused away from the front line. if aliens went term then a quick 2nd hive in caf is easier with 3 rts.
whatevers, im no expert nor a map maker.
It isn't really that it is easy to pressure stability, it is that you can siege two techpoints from one room.
Comments
While I understand your outlaying point, that maps should concentrate on being interesting and memorable rather than balanced, I really think you've dropped the ball in your argument.
You're saying that the new Docking has sacrificed interesting locations from the old Docking, and those have been replaced with generic sci-fi corridors. Let's think about for a moment what those locations that got changed or removed were. Maintenance, stability monitoring, north point, courtyard, generator. Out of these, only generator and courtyard had any personality whatsoever in the old version with the others being just what you were describing; bland corridors and rooms with little variation. Generator stayed mostly the same, but is now much more interesting, because fighting happens in the entire room instead of only the easternmost quarter. Courtyard still retains its personality, and at least in my opinion, is much more imposing than it was before. The new maintenance is certainly more interesting than the old corner and corridor, and stability remains mostly the same with some added corridors in its vicinity. So what exactly is the problem? My first thought about the new docking was how much more interesting these new rooms are both visually and gameplaywise compared to the old ones. The really unique-to-NS2 rooms in Docking are the clinical rooms of 'residence', i.e. cafeteria, bar, locker rooms, ball court, east wing and perhaps even departures. These didn't change at all. All the personality Docking had before it retains.
And then you drop the ball down the crevice when you state that Descent is suffering the same problem. Samey, bland scifi-corridors? What map have you been playing? Descent is by far the most visually stunning map in the current NS2 repertoire, and almost every single room is unique. Drone bay has imposing drone props, observation with its windows has the most stunning view in the game, monorail changes the color scheme from clean grey to red and has a memorable crashed train prop, energy flow with its generator or whats-it-not, fabrication a bit bland but still clearly unique, plaza along with club being the absolute prize flower in the garden that is NS2, with I'm sure not a single player forgetting seeing it after first having played the map, launch control with its strange geometry and strong theme, gravity control with the imposing effects, unorthodox room shape and lack of floor and, last but not least, hydroanalysis with its perhaps bland geometry, but memorable central prop. No map in the current list of official NS2 maps really compares, and I can't really say that this is even a matter of opinion. There is a reason that Descent was at the time of its release the most expensive map ever produced by UWE.
People see this and think "this stuff was good, why was it removed and the mapper's hard work was in vain and this plays totally different now, instead of being improved and the work invested into other things". It seems like a waste of effort and an unnecessary loss of something with good potential.
Anyways, I was trying to explain WHY these kinds of complaints appear, not so much take a side here.
@Therius: Yes, the new Docking is in no way bad, I agree that Courtyard is better than ever, but the map *plays* entirely different. (New) players liked the map because it was more forgiving than the other "competitive" maps, and it played uniquely.
About Descent, I was NOT talking about the visuals. Of course Descent looks great. It's about the spatial and gameplay quality of the rooms.
Has any interesting fight ever occurred in Fabrication, Plaza, Launch, Bay, Shipping, Receiving, Club? Not for me! The entire top-left side of the map (except Gravity) *plays* quite boring.
Again, I was explaining WHY people dislike Descent more than other maps (that just seems to be the case, nobody ever votes for Descent and people often complain when the map comes up), and Docking was so popular.
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My guess/hope is Classic Docking will be on many servers soon (I'd also like to see the release version of Docking, with the Courtyard RT and hilarious old East Wing). Not because new Docking is bad or "worse", but because it plays totally different and people liked the gameplay on the old version.
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In my opinion, if you want to fix Docking starting from the old version without having a huge remake like the new version, and if you want to retain the feel of it: Locker rooms must be moved west so you no longer can utterly dominate Courtyard from it. It should be as "far" away from Courtyard as Terminal. Everything else should come after this, fixing Stability/Maintenance, etc.
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Let's see how it goes, the map is only a few days old atm
edit:
Anybody know where to find the old (248) and release (227) versions of Docking? Didn't find them in the old build zips. @dux would it be ok for you if people uploaded old versions of the map on the workshop? (there's already a 248 version I think)
But I don't understand cafe. It has changed a lot in the short time I've been playing this game, and seems it's always been a problem child. Before it seemed out of the way, an afterthought to marines and just another place to harass as aliens. The changes to central access were a big improvement. But still, aliens never took cafe except to help stage a final assault when losing marines refuse to concede. Getting rid of the TP is one solution, but leaving the RT makes the room even more of a problem. Now it's just a harass point, far from the rest of battle where it's only strategic value is economic.
I'm not sure about the travel distances, but it seems like the hike from terminal to lockers through cafe/bar is laborious, far more so than the route to departures via east wing. Going that way, once RTs are up, is a huge waste of time. Having to run back through there only to stop harassment, without the benefit of controlling a major corridor while you do so, makes cafe/bar little more than a chore for both teams. It's just too out of the way and maybe just maybe it's best to just throw out the baby with the bathwater. It's hard as an artist to work so hard and so long on something and admit that it no longer serves the bigger picture. I'm just not sure what that bigger picture is. It was a 5TP map. If that's not the case anymore, then I don't know what purpose cafe serves.
Well someone already uploaded 248 here on workshop:
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=152754783&searchtext=
As for release docking I had it for a while but Idk how to upload it to workshop:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/sejil72b13wi3wa/Release Docking.zip
That is not "Docking Classic"... I miss the old old version
Yes, because I totally said that the map testers/makers were bad and that I could easily do a much better job.
Oh wait...
Get over yourself. I criticize a map and everyone involved gets overly butthurt because they can't take the negativity...
As for your point on balance in other esports, I can only comment on Starcraft 2. First of all, Lost Temple was a terrible map that most people disliked, but it took Blizzard forever to remove it. Secondly, balance does transfer on down through the skill levels as well as, at least in part, player counts. However, the one thing that almost never works for vastly different player counts is the maps. Imagine trying to play a 4v4 on Daybreak. Sure, Daybreak is a great 1v1 map, but playing a 4v4 on it simply wouldn't work.
The same is true for NS2. Four tech point maps might work great for 12 player games, but they don't work at all for 20+ player games. And before someone comes in here and says "Herp derp, nobody cares about large player count servers", realize that the vast majority of public players enjoy them as is proven by the popularity of larger servers. With only four tech points, it is really easy for one side to hold three tech points and just dominate the other team, even if teams aren't stacked. Even if both sides manage to hold two tech points each, the instant one side gets a slight advantage, they just snowball to an easy victory. There is no back and forth. There is no chance for a comeback.
Compare this to 5 tech point maps where back and forth action is very prevalent and base trades are common. Losing a tech point when there are 5 isn't an instantly lost game because you either have one to spare or can take another one as it is very difficult to defend 4 techpoints at once.
Couple that with the fact that Docking was the most popular map in public games and you end up with this thread. If this had been done to Refinery, the mappers wouldn't have received nearly as much flak for the changes.
If you need to resort to violence to make your point, then clearly it wasn't a very good point to begin with. I'm fine with some sarcastic/funny remarks when needed, but it shouldn't be done in this thread when tempers were already flaring. Cooler heads should prevail.
And there has been a lot of good feedback on this thread, but it happens to be surrounded by not-so-good feedback (such as the original post). Unfortunately, people are lumping all of the feedback into the bad category and throwing it out without much thought.
Unfortunately, dux said they were going to focus on Biodome until that was released, which means we could be stuck with sub-par-Docking for months. People don't like it and want it changed back sooner rather than later. Besides, how can there be changes is nobody ever says anything about it?
What you say on new maps is completely true, but it isn't why this thread is here. If you consider the new Docking to be a new map (with a complete redesign, that isn't much of a stretch), then you have to realize that they completely removed the old Docking, which was a player favorite. If they had added the new map and called it "Landing" or something while keeping Docking, I'd be fine with it. While I don't like the new map, I know that my opinion is not universal and that different people like different things.
Considering the changes that were done, and the thread that specifically says the changes were for competitive play, and that the competitive community is the only one asked for feedback, then yes, it is true that the new Docking was made for competitive play. If public play had been in mind, then we wouldn't even be having this conversation.
Huh... Odd.. Never thought of 16 player games with varied skilled PTs counting as "competitive" ..
I think Docking is easily the map that has undergone the most drastic changes in NS2, both in terms of sheer layout and aesthetic. followed by probably Tram. This is the "old" docking... I'm pretty sure there have been people who have hated, and people who have loved every version. This one is no different.
I'm still baffled at how you can say that the old locations in Docking were significantly more 'unique' or memorable than the new ones. I just cannot see it. Maintenance, for example, along with north point were easily the most boring rooms in the entire map, in my opinion. Visually, spatially, however you like it.
Also, your arguments of map x never being played on pubs or map y being liked the most on pubs is flimsy and anecdotal at best. For me, on pubs, mineshaft is easily the least played map, next to refinery, with summit and tram taking the shared first spot. Docking comes a close second. I checked this from ns2stats, and I never choose a server based on the map, and usually play for at least 5 rounds in a row without leaving because of a certain map, so I think this is a rather good sampling of maps played most on pubs (on those specific servers I visit, I agree). I challenge you to show me your pub play map pie chart to back up mineshaft being loved on pubs and tram never being played on pubs
I can't help it, but it strongly seems to me that you're mistaking personal preference of maps and locations and the feeling of 'uniqueness' tied to those locations that you know so well and play often with actual merits of those locations. Those locations aren't more memorable than others, but you've made them more memorable for yourself through getting addicted in them.
I feel the northern end of the map is overdone, take reference from tram, the layout is pretty much the same in comm chair locations, but it works out better.
http://dev.kmem.info/ns2/ns2_tram.jpg
Giving courtyard 1 res node would do really good things to the map I think. Right now, since stability is no longer a vulnerable point, it isn't essential for aliens to hold courtyard, so very little fighting happens there compared to old docking, which is a shame since it's such a great arena.
The reason I included Lost Temple is because it's a good example of a competitive map that was broken and went through revision after revision. Things like sieging the 6 main gas from the 9 start position, sieging the 12 ramp from the 3 start position and sieging the 12 nat from the 3 start pos were all things that were changed over time as useful feedback circulated. I don't know when you started playing SC originally, but LT was one of the main maps used in tournaments for awhile before newer maps came out that suited the changing meta better. I remember having about 50 versions of that map alone in my maps folder from all the revisions and different tourney versions. Don't really know where you get all this info that most people disliked it. It did become out-dated though.
Also, I wouldn't use SC maps as an argument for player count. Simply because those maps are mainly designed for 1on1, 2on2, etc. I'd be more inclined to use Dust2/Inferno as an example of competitive maps that are some of the more popular maps in public play. What is your opinion on Summit and Tram in pub play? Do they feel horrible because they are 'comp' maps?
Your point on player count is going to be an issue on any map, not just Docking. I also highly doubt that the new version was only played in a 6on6 scrim setting. Give it some time and you might find out it plays ok in larger servers as well as smaller ones.
Anyway, my overall direction was that the new Docking seems to be addressing some of the issues that were in the last version, such as arcing hives and Stability being crappy. I can't really talk about the 4 tech points because I haven't played the map much since release and the only other map we have to go off is Veil, which is completely different. Dux has already mentioned that if the 4TP becomes a big issue he will simply add it back in.
Thanks! Will see if I can get it onto the workshop, no idea how to do that atm.
@Therius: Generator was just such a cool room, and Stability with it's vents and connections to Gen/Departures/Maint was also cool. But well.
Again, I'm just giving my version WHY people complain and bring up Descent.
It has nothing to do with being competitive (I know, I know, my complaints seem to focus on competitive). Summit and Tram are both great maps at higher player counts, but that is because they have 5TP in each of them. 4TP does not work in high player count servers.
Honestly, the new Docking isn't that bad of a map; if it wasn't 4TP, I would probably love it. The problem is that it is only 4TP, leaving Cafeteria, Landing Pad, and Bar as ghost towns and causing the problem of always having one-sided games. I just got done commanding a ~5 vs. ~5 game as Marines, where we each had 2TP and didn't do much to each other until a few Jetpackers managed to kill one of the Hives even though there were 2 Onii. Less than a minute later, the 2nd Hive was dead and the game was over. Boring. It is even worse at higher player counts.
All comments about the new Docking were negative. As soon as the game was over, we changed the map.
The problem of stability monitoring still exists in your mock up. There was a reason the north end of the map expanded and generator specifically was flipped in 249. Docking in 248 was a terribly imbalanced map that had a single room that marines could lock down 2 techpoints with ease.
But generator is exactly the same room, with the difference that the other side has a platform that you can build on too. This combined with the fact that the res node and the tech point are on the opposite sides of the room means that the entire room is now used for encounters, while the old docking mostly used the vicinity of the tech point, with the rest of the room just being that much background.
Good job on docking so far, It's a good step forward. Needs some final polishing.
Cafe/terminal need to be merged(smaller in size if this will be made into marine start) - make landing pad a rt spot - redesign eastwing into landing pad.
Departues for aliens is a old pipeline start. Very hard to get easy rts that are close. Re-think east wing rt placement/room design.
The vent in stability needs to be fixed, i can snipe maintenance go thru that vent and kill stab without seeing an alien (maybe less marine friendly from maintenance)
This map atm is still heavily marine biased, Very easy to lock aliens down. Mainly thats becuase of the easy access from locker/terminal into courtyard.
Credit goes to hugh.
No. Locker Rooms had the same win percentage as the other starts.
the rational was: marines can't pressure stability res as easily, and locking down the new maintenance room would be tough. gen or depart start should grab 3 rts pretty easily. putting landing pad rt in would keep a marine or two focused away from the front line. if aliens went term then a quick 2nd hive in caf is easier with 3 rts.
whatevers, im no expert nor a map maker.
It isn't really that it is easy to pressure stability, it is that you can siege two techpoints from one room.