People I feel just have a hard time accepting change.
This is rapidly becoming the go to write-you-off-reason for why lots of people don't like the new/upcoming changes. I guess "you aren't a comp player so your opinion doesn't matter" got old?
Not calling you out specifically for doing that or anything, just noticing a trend.
Fraggler is correct imo, these changes do feel like a new map rather than a modification. It's no surprise that people complain when huges changes occur, in some cases for ambiguous reasons. Another reason why iterating towards a goal make more sense.
People I feel just have a hard time accepting change.
This is rapidly becoming the go to write-you-off-reason for why lots of people don't like the new/upcoming changes. I guess "you aren't a comp player so your opinion doesn't matter" got old?
Not calling you out specifically for doing that or anything, just noticing a trend.
Fraggler is correct imo, these changes do feel like a new map rather than a modification. It's no surprise that people complain when huges changes occur, in some cases for ambiguous reasons. Another reason why iterating towards a goal make more sense.
I've noticed this as well but more so about the balance mod then any thing.
In my case I said that is because I see tons of resistance in this thread and other forums about the changes done to this map for the soul reason is they happen to like the map how it was before. That isn't a good reason to dislike something new is what I'm saying. Others may disagree but i guess what I'm attempting to say is if you give something new a shot you may just like it more then what you previously had. Or you may not which is fair. In general people shouldn't fight the attempt to make a map more balanced. The Person I was directing that whole post to (not so much that last statement) actually provided reasons why they disliked it which is more then most people have done. Feedback like "i feel this-because xxx" is always cool to see.
In my case I said that is because I see tons of resistance in this thread and other forums about the changes done to this map for the soul reason is they happen to like the map how it was before.
I don't know if that's so unreasonable. This isn't a beta any more after all. Couldn't whatever issues were present have perhaps been resolved with minor changes rather than major ones? I guess what I'm wondering is why changes to NS2 in general seem to be trending towards the larger end of the spectrum of possibilities (or that seems to be the general perception anyway). Is it really that broken?
In the case of docking it kinda was lol. There were major issues that needed to be addressed and none of the map testers or mappers came up with a "simple fix'. Every one came to the opinion there was no simple fix.
In the case of docking it kinda was lol. There were major issues that needed to be addressed and none of the map testers or mappers came up with a "simple fix'. Every one came to the opinion there was no simple fix.
Doesn't look like the end result was worth it at this point then. Why change a map so drastically to appease a few comp players at the expense of pissing off the majority of everyone else? I guess it just wasn't considered (herp derp comp player input only). Maybe it wasn't predictable that docking would end up removed from the rotation on a lot of the public servers, but there is a lesson to be learned here somewhere with regards to the reception some of the other upcoming changes will receive.
People I feel just have a hard time accepting change.
This is rapidly becoming the go to write-you-off-reason for why lots of people don't like the new/upcoming changes. I guess "you aren't a comp player so your opinion doesn't matter" got old?
Not calling you out specifically for doing that or anything, just noticing a trend.
Fraggler is correct imo, these changes do feel like a new map rather than a modification. It's no surprise that people complain when huges changes occur, in some cases for ambiguous reasons. Another reason why iterating towards a goal make more sense.
I've noticed this as well but more so about the balance mod then any thing.
In my case I said that is because I see tons of resistance in this thread and other forums about the changes done to this map for the soul reason is they happen to like the map how it was before. That isn't a good reason to dislike something new is what I'm saying. Others may disagree but i guess what I'm attempting to say is if you give something new a shot you may just like it more then what you previously had. Or you may not which is fair. In general people shouldn't fight the attempt to make a map more balanced. The Person I was directing that whole post to (not so much that last statement) actually provided reasons why they disliked it which is more then most people have done. Feedback like "i feel this-because xxx" is always cool to see.
I totally agree, you don't know until you've tried it. my wife does this thing with her finger... well maybe I'll tell you on our other forum. Anyway, it was totally worth a shit but I do agree with the sentiment that it isn't really docking anymore. It's all growing pains.
I also agree about useful feedback. There are some things I really like, maint and courtyard are way cooler and strand makes the west side of Dep a lot more useful. There's still an awful lot of things that don't work at all on the larger servers though, especially cafe. I really wish there was a 5 tech version with the landing vent back. Those are growing pains though, like I said, and we wouldn't know unless Dux tried it. I'm also not entirely satisfied with the vent from maint to stability, it seems incomplete but I can't put my finger on what it is yet. I do like the way it goes under the big pipe though, it looks pretty cool. I also like those stairs on the east side of Courtyard (junction?) with the vertical pipes. Other then the lighting in the new rooms, which obviously isn't done yet, they're looking good. There's some LOS issues in gen I think but nothing major, more playing needed to determine what's fair but right now, it's definitely marine biased. I guess I can think of a lot of little things but that's what happens when you make a big change and is to be expected.
THANKS FOR THE HARD WORK DUX!
People can be douche bags but you gotta roll with it. The map isn't done but I appreciate the experimentation. My biggest peeve is loosing cafe, though I appreciate for smaller/comp games 4 tech is nice it makes larger servers (which are very popular) less fun. These are of course all my opinions and should be taken as such.
Change Departures. Give it a third hallway connecting to generator or something. You can't have only 2 places (East wing & that new OP room where you can be an annoying marine that cuts the cysts if they have departures spawn) that lead to 1 tech point. I thought this was a mistake NS2 map makers made before? Why are we making the same mistake? Departures is like the old ns2_veil pipeline now.
In the case of docking it kinda was lol. There were major issues that needed to be addressed and none of the map testers or mappers came up with a "simple fix'. Every one came to the opinion there was no simple fix.
This is why we need seperate maps for pubs and comp. While Docking was great for pubs, it had serious problems in comp. The new Docking is the opposite. Sure, some maps might work in both, but others clearly don't.
Yep, keep the old AND the new. Call it different, make some further changes to docking new - clean up cafe, make it balanced for small servers with 4 techs and switch terminal with landing pad maybe, or move terminal a bit.
And then call it Docking 2.0 and let it co-exist.
In the case of docking it kinda was lol. There were major issues that needed to be addressed and none of the map testers or mappers came up with a "simple fix'. Every one came to the opinion there was no simple fix.
This is why we need seperate maps for pubs and comp. While Docking was great for pubs, it had serious problems in comp. The new Docking is the opposite. Sure, some maps might work in both, but others clearly don't.
Don't make things up. Docking wasn't played in competitive, and it won't be played in competitive now either. These changes weren't made for competitive. I wish people stopped attributing everything they don't like to competitive.
I primarily pub.. from 16 to 24 playercounts, doesn't matter... and my anecdotal evidence suggests that every single issue that has afflicted comp games has also affected pub.
I can't tell you how many times marines spawning in lockers or locking down stability or departure arcing created issues.. you'd be amazed at the amount of other pubs that agreed.
I'm having a hard time guessing where the difference in experience comes from?
I would like to point out that I wasn't ranting or trying to hurt feelings. Just stating the obvious. I did not make descent the least favorite map, but it is. I did not make docking the second least favorite map, but it now is. Can we have a docking v1 and a docking v2?
On v1, please move the tech point in stability to the north of the room where it can not be sniped.
I primarily pub.. from 16 to 24 playercounts, doesn't matter... and my anecdotal evidence suggests that every single issue that has afflicted comp games has also affected pub.
I can't tell you how many times marines spawning in lockers or locking down stability or departure arcing created issues.. you'd be amazed at the amount of other pubs that agreed.
I'm having a hard time guessing where the difference in experience comes from?
I actually have statistics to back up my arguments, so try again.
So you believe a narrow sample sized winrate statistic demonstrates all the issues a map can display, eh?
And does your experience really differ so much from mine playing pub games that you never noticed these issues while playing?
I know of the issues with Stability, where marines could ARC both Departures and Generator hives. However, that rarely came up as Stability was pretty easy for aliens to defend with its multitude of entrances and vents as well as obstacles and line-of-sight blockers. Even so, I do agree that it needed a change, but all that was really needed was to flip Generator (so that the tech point was on the western side of the room) and to reorganize Maintenance so as to work with the new Generator.
However, I still fail to see what any of that had to do with the Cafeteria tech point. There was no reason for its removal other than to make the map more "competitive". Putting the tech point back in Cafeteria would solve a large amount of the current iteration's problems.
In the case of docking it kinda was lol. There were major issues that needed to be addressed and none of the map testers or mappers came up with a "simple fix'. Every one came to the opinion there was no simple fix.
This is why we need seperate maps for pubs and comp. While Docking was great for pubs, it had serious problems in comp. The new Docking is the opposite. Sure, some maps might work in both, but others clearly don't.
Don't make things up. Docking wasn't played in competitive, and it won't be played in competitive now either. These changes weren't made for competitive. I wish people stopped attributing everything they don't like to competitive.
The above thread goes entirely against your argument. But if the new Docking is never played in competitive then I'll have to laugh at the project's complete failure. They'll have put a lot of work into the project but will have gained almost nothing and only succeeded at pissing a lot of people off.
They'll have put a lot of work into the project but will have gained almost nothing and only succeeded at pissing a lot of people off.
As well as making the map a better pub experience for some of us, like me, for example. Stop acting like you know your opinion is the righteous one or even that of the majority's. A lot of pubbers have expressed positive feelings towards the new iteration.
They'll have put a lot of work into the project but will have gained almost nothing and only succeeded at pissing a lot of people off.
As well as making the map a better pub experience for some of us, like me, for example. Stop acting like you know your opinion is the righteous one or even that of the majority's. A lot of pubbers have expressed positive feelings towards the new iteration.
I like the new docking. I don't play on 24 slot servers.
Yea, when it first pop up, people were like "this is so aweful, what have they done", but as it seems people have just gotten use to it, and even started to like, I think once people have their say they move on.... even I'm really starting to like.
I except the same will happen when parts of the BT mod will be moved across, people being not sure, or even disliking, but then getting use to it.
About server sizes, agreed. The highest I go is 20, people should remember you get a more balanced and better performing game if you stick around 16 - 18 size servers.
They'll have put a lot of work into the project but will have gained almost nothing and only succeeded at pissing a lot of people off.
As well as making the map a better pub experience for some of us, like me, for example. Stop acting like you know your opinion is the righteous one or even that of the majority's. A lot of pubbers have expressed positive feelings towards the new iteration.
I like the new docking. I don't play on 24 slot servers.
Yea, when it first went up, people were like "this is so awful, what have they done", but as it seems people have just gotten use to it, and even started to like, I think once people have their say they move on.... even I'm really starting to like it.
I except the same will happen when parts of the BT mod will be moved across, people being not sure, or even disliking, but then getting use to it.
About server sizes, agreed. The highest I go is 20, people should remember you get a more balanced and better performing game if you stick around 16 - 18 size servers
The above thread goes entirely against your argument. But if the new Docking is never played in competitive then I'll have to laugh at the project's complete failure. They'll have put a lot of work into the project but will have gained almost nothing and only succeeded at pissing a lot of people off.
From that thread:
*Marines will always spawn in Terminal and aliens in Generator.
*all ambience sounds have been removed.
This was from the Docking "B" version that was on the workshop for a short while (and I know because I uploaded that version), it was basically the same as the old docking with a those changes as a little test (as obviously there's ambient sounds and random spawns in the official). The other changes came from the issues in pub play and nothing else.
Also, there is no "balanced for comp play" and "balanced for pub play", either it's balanced or it's not.
In the case of docking it kinda was lol. There were major issues that needed to be addressed and none of the map testers or mappers came up with a "simple fix'. Every one came to the opinion there was no simple fix.
This is why we need seperate maps for pubs and comp. While Docking was great for pubs, it had serious problems in comp. The new Docking is the opposite. Sure, some maps might work in both, but others clearly don't.
Don't make things up. Docking wasn't played in competitive, and it won't be played in competitive now either. These changes weren't made for competitive. I wish people stopped attributing everything they don't like to competitive.
You know.. I mean, since we're playing descent, we might as well play docking. These last batch of changes do adress some issues with the map, and while it may not be perfect I still think it's a cooler map than descent.
Expansion RTs for marines from Terminal are horrible. Landing pad is completely useless and a waste of space. South-west area needs a rework, which is not going to happen.
I did make docking a spawns file for the spawns mod so it's only Terminal vs Generator (it was a request). I'm all for testing new stuff, but considering how hard it is to convince other teams to play new maps...
Comments
This is rapidly becoming the go to write-you-off-reason for why lots of people don't like the new/upcoming changes. I guess "you aren't a comp player so your opinion doesn't matter" got old?
Not calling you out specifically for doing that or anything, just noticing a trend.
Fraggler is correct imo, these changes do feel like a new map rather than a modification. It's no surprise that people complain when huges changes occur, in some cases for ambiguous reasons. Another reason why iterating towards a goal make more sense.
I've noticed this as well but more so about the balance mod then any thing.
In my case I said that is because I see tons of resistance in this thread and other forums about the changes done to this map for the soul reason is they happen to like the map how it was before. That isn't a good reason to dislike something new is what I'm saying. Others may disagree but i guess what I'm attempting to say is if you give something new a shot you may just like it more then what you previously had. Or you may not which is fair. In general people shouldn't fight the attempt to make a map more balanced. The Person I was directing that whole post to (not so much that last statement) actually provided reasons why they disliked it which is more then most people have done. Feedback like "i feel this-because xxx" is always cool to see.
I don't know if that's so unreasonable. This isn't a beta any more after all. Couldn't whatever issues were present have perhaps been resolved with minor changes rather than major ones? I guess what I'm wondering is why changes to NS2 in general seem to be trending towards the larger end of the spectrum of possibilities (or that seems to be the general perception anyway). Is it really that broken?
Doesn't look like the end result was worth it at this point then. Why change a map so drastically to appease a few comp players at the expense of pissing off the majority of everyone else? I guess it just wasn't considered (herp derp comp player input only). Maybe it wasn't predictable that docking would end up removed from the rotation on a lot of the public servers, but there is a lesson to be learned here somewhere with regards to the reception some of the other upcoming changes will receive.
I totally agree, you don't know until you've tried it. my wife does this thing with her finger... well maybe I'll tell you on our other forum. Anyway, it was totally worth a shit but I do agree with the sentiment that it isn't really docking anymore. It's all growing pains.
I also agree about useful feedback. There are some things I really like, maint and courtyard are way cooler and strand makes the west side of Dep a lot more useful. There's still an awful lot of things that don't work at all on the larger servers though, especially cafe. I really wish there was a 5 tech version with the landing vent back. Those are growing pains though, like I said, and we wouldn't know unless Dux tried it. I'm also not entirely satisfied with the vent from maint to stability, it seems incomplete but I can't put my finger on what it is yet. I do like the way it goes under the big pipe though, it looks pretty cool. I also like those stairs on the east side of Courtyard (junction?) with the vertical pipes. Other then the lighting in the new rooms, which obviously isn't done yet, they're looking good. There's some LOS issues in gen I think but nothing major, more playing needed to determine what's fair but right now, it's definitely marine biased. I guess I can think of a lot of little things but that's what happens when you make a big change and is to be expected.
THANKS FOR THE HARD WORK DUX!
People can be douche bags but you gotta roll with it. The map isn't done but I appreciate the experimentation. My biggest peeve is loosing cafe, though I appreciate for smaller/comp games 4 tech is nice it makes larger servers (which are very popular) less fun. These are of course all my opinions and should be taken as such.
I haven't played it myself, I like the new visuals and stuff.
This is why we need seperate maps for pubs and comp. While Docking was great for pubs, it had serious problems in comp. The new Docking is the opposite. Sure, some maps might work in both, but others clearly don't.
And then call it Docking 2.0 and let it co-exist.
Don't make things up. Docking wasn't played in competitive, and it won't be played in competitive now either. These changes weren't made for competitive. I wish people stopped attributing everything they don't like to competitive.
I do not agree.
I primarily pub.. from 16 to 24 playercounts, doesn't matter... and my anecdotal evidence suggests that every single issue that has afflicted comp games has also affected pub.
I can't tell you how many times marines spawning in lockers or locking down stability or departure arcing created issues.. you'd be amazed at the amount of other pubs that agreed.
I'm having a hard time guessing where the difference in experience comes from?
On v1, please move the tech point in stability to the north of the room where it can not be sniped.
I actually have statistics to back up my arguments, so try again.
And does your experience really differ so much from mine playing pub games that you never noticed these issues while playing?
I know of the issues with Stability, where marines could ARC both Departures and Generator hives. However, that rarely came up as Stability was pretty easy for aliens to defend with its multitude of entrances and vents as well as obstacles and line-of-sight blockers. Even so, I do agree that it needed a change, but all that was really needed was to flip Generator (so that the tech point was on the western side of the room) and to reorganize Maintenance so as to work with the new Generator.
However, I still fail to see what any of that had to do with the Cafeteria tech point. There was no reason for its removal other than to make the map more "competitive". Putting the tech point back in Cafeteria would solve a large amount of the current iteration's problems.
http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/128793/time-to-make-docking-competitive/p1
The above thread goes entirely against your argument. But if the new Docking is never played in competitive then I'll have to laugh at the project's complete failure. They'll have put a lot of work into the project but will have gained almost nothing and only succeeded at pissing a lot of people off.
As well as making the map a better pub experience for some of us, like me, for example. Stop acting like you know your opinion is the righteous one or even that of the majority's. A lot of pubbers have expressed positive feelings towards the new iteration.
Yea, when it first pop up, people were like "this is so aweful, what have they done", but as it seems people have just gotten use to it, and even started to like, I think once people have their say they move on.... even I'm really starting to like.
I except the same will happen when parts of the BT mod will be moved across, people being not sure, or even disliking, but then getting use to it.
About server sizes, agreed. The highest I go is 20, people should remember you get a more balanced and better performing game if you stick around 16 - 18 size servers.
Yea, when it first went up, people were like "this is so awful, what have they done", but as it seems people have just gotten use to it, and even started to like, I think once people have their say they move on.... even I'm really starting to like it.
I except the same will happen when parts of the BT mod will be moved across, people being not sure, or even disliking, but then getting use to it.
About server sizes, agreed. The highest I go is 20, people should remember you get a more balanced and better performing game if you stick around 16 - 18 size servers
relatively pleased with that.
i also want to make Dux make a a face like this
without further ado
*Marines will always spawn in Terminal and aliens in Generator.
*all ambience sounds have been removed.
This was from the Docking "B" version that was on the workshop for a short while (and I know because I uploaded that version), it was basically the same as the old docking with a those changes as a little test (as obviously there's ambient sounds and random spawns in the official). The other changes came from the issues in pub play and nothing else.
Also, there is no "balanced for comp play" and "balanced for pub play", either it's balanced or it's not.
You know.. I mean, since we're playing descent, we might as well play docking. These last batch of changes do adress some issues with the map, and while it may not be perfect I still think it's a cooler map than descent.
I did make docking a spawns file for the spawns mod so it's only Terminal vs Generator (it was a request). I'm all for testing new stuff, but considering how hard it is to convince other teams to play new maps...