This is why its so important to get the map layout right the first time
Something is seriously wrong with mapping in this game, Docking, Mineshaft, Refinery, Decent, Tram have all seen extensive overhauls of entire rooms and layouts, some more so than others.
Is this even being looked into ? Or is this the status quo ? Do the mappers like seeing alot of their time and effort wasted like this ? Are mappers going about map creation the wrong way ? Is Gameplay taking a backseat to Aesthetics ? Is there a better way of doing things ?
I get that we have to salvage maps by revamping them, however its reduced the amount of maps we could have had at this point. Theres a good saying," measure twice, cut once" Builders say this because they know if you mess up the planning stage, you could end up spending a lot of time fixing your mistakes.
There was a brief point where mappers started to give Tech points away so that teams didnt have to work to secure them, Docking and mineshaft suffered heavily because of this. While Mineshaft has been overhauled, we still see a reilc of this crazy thought process in cafeteria on docking.
I think there needs to be some serious discussions amongst the mapping community on what is the best way forward.
it's not easy to "get it right the first time" when it's trying to work for 12 players, 20 players, and 30 players along with the entire spectrum of skill levels and balance that changes every month
Evil_bOb1Join Date: 2002-07-13Member: 938Members, Squad Five Blue
Yes, with the game changing every so often, what was right at one point ceases to be at another. There is a lot of fixing mistakes on the game itself, and this is reflected in the visible part of the game, the maps. Before the mapping community can start some serious discussion, a status quo needs to be established with the game itself.
Another good saying "nothing good has ever come from a committee."
This was the first ever layout given to me for docking. As you can see, stuff changes. When all the maps first went into development, a lot of the game and its mechanics were still up in air. Tram, Mineshaft, Docking, Refinery and even veil have all gone through revisions and changes. Docking was originally intended to have a lot of weldable doors and was designed around that for period of time. It was also designed when random spawns weren't around and when Landing Pad was going to be the marine spawn. AND when marines needed up to 3 tech points to get higher tier stuff. Sieges were also still being thought up and their range constantly changing. The map for 249 might not be everyone's cup of tea just because "change" and that's unfortunate. But I do appreciate the feedback contrary to what is said.
The problem isn't "change", the problem is people legitimately don't like the map and yet their feedback is being dismissed with the wave of a hand because "you just don't like change". It is.. disappointing..
Personally, I like change. Change often brings refreshing gameplay and opens up new avenues for exploration. But not all change is good.
I feel like docking may have been balanced around BT, where aliens will have the ability to do more on one hive, as it is for vanila rinse need to hold 3 points on the map and aliens are stuck...
Currently ns2 maps with exception of viel have 5 tech point and I would argue that double can be as valuable as a tech point...
As such docking is the only map with 4 key positions, with phase tech marines can hold 3 positions with relative ease, it's when they try to hold 4 or more that they become spread thin...
Solution... Add a 5th point of importance (tech or double)... My preference would be to return caf to a tech point but adjust landing so caf and term at farther apart...
If anyone sees anything constructive in this post, let me know. I seem to have missed it. You know, constructive as in criticism that helps dux to actually improve the map, constructive as in to point out the flaws.
Tongue-in-cheek my friend. What I added was obviously my opinion on the map and my opinion on the rage against the players shown by a developer which is a sad state of affairs when they come down to our level. I also know that people like you (and probably Dux) will possibly still read it as a personal attack, which is why I find it funny.
My first constructive criticism is that I just won't play the map, and that's my right. If more maps are destroyed (in my opinion) in this manner then I will exercise my right to not play or recommend this game anymore. Keep in mind as well I paid $40 for this back in 2009 the day the pre-purchase was allowed because I believe in UWE. After all the delays started I used to joke that NS2 would come out "right after Duke Nukem Forever" - and then that comment wasn't funny any more after Duke was released.
My second constructive criticism is that paying customers at any price - even all those who either got it free from a friend or paid $8 - have a right to voice their opinions, and that should be taken into account by developers to make better products. I don't expect UWE to bend to our will, but I hope that the small outcry over this will help them to make better decisions on other maps in the future. Take the small outcry on the forums and consider all the players who don't even know these forums exist, much less come to post here and I bet you'll find tons of other players who just plain don't like the changes to the map. I'm sure you'll find a lot of competitive players who do like the changes.
When developers begin to call any of their players whiners - or refer to their concerns as "unnecessary hate" is when I start to worry for the long term viability of the company - ANY company.
But I do appreciate the feedback contrary to what is said.
And that's awesome. I'm not a mapper and as a player I can't put my finger on exactly what would need changed to make the map better for me - short of a rollback - because I'm more interested in biting and shooting than designing. I think a lot of people on this thread expect everyone to act like a map designer and "solve the problem" when most of us can barely express what we like or don't like, we just know we do or don't.
But, it all may be for naught because who knows- the next update with balance tweaks might make this map perfect and the others play like crap. :-)
But you cannot expect the devs or anyone else for that matter to take any opinion very seriously, if there is absolutely nothing backing it up. You have a right to come to the forums and say that you don't like something and that it's your right without having to say why you don't like it, but if the devs start listening to people like that, nothing ever is going to change. No matter what's being altered, there will always be people opposing it. Every single time. And the only solution is to stay in status quo, which is arguably the worst choice. What matters are facts and arguments on why something is bad and how to fix it, or why it's good and doesn't need changing for the time being. Provide that if you want to have an impact. You have a right to express your opinion without saying anything to back it up, but you can't expect anyone to care.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited June 2013
Useful feedback is needed if you desire change.
So if you can't offer a solution, at least describe what is wrong or what you don't like.
If you can't do that either, then there's zero feedback for devs to go on, so there's no direction on how to change anything - so nothing will.
So i suggest trying to analyze and really consider what you don't like, that way no one can claim its just aversion, but instead discuss what needs changing to make a happy customer.
Again, I am not hating on anyone or anything. I am just a customer who liked docking prior to the recent changes. I don't understand why my simple request is being ignored.
It's ridiculous that you don't believe something needs to change if a ton of people tell you it sucks.
Even more people told the devs the game sucked before there was talk of the BT. Now people are telling the devs the game will suck when the BT is introduced. Whatever changes would take place instead of the BT, there would be a ton of people telling the devs the game will suck. The game sucked, it sucks now and it will continue sucking until the end of time according to a ton of people. The only reasonable way forward is to try to make the game suck less via dev reasoning and listening to the people who actually voice their opinions in a way that gives the devs any damn clue as to why the game sucks.
I'm embarrassed for this community for having to say that out loud.
//edit: I'm sorry I said BT when this thread is about the new Docking. It's truly hilarious, though, that replacing the word 'BT' with 'new Docking' doesn't change the message at all. Truly, truly hilarious.
I get that they want useful feedback. I'm just sick of 100000 people shutting everyone down who comes here telling them certain changes suck. Just accept it and move on, you aren't going to get useful feedback out of everyone, but you can take peoples displeasure for what it is without discounting every single one of them for not providing reasons. *Snip* Cease name calling and inflammatory behavior. - Ironhorse
It's ridiculous that you don't believe something needs to change if a ton of people tell you it sucks.
Just out of curiosity do people think we just make changes for the sake of changes? That we just sit around thinking, you know what would be way more fun then working on a new map? Reworking Docking for the hundredth time, just shuffle some stuff randomly around for no apparent reason, delete and rebuild for the sheer joy of it. We would have loved to not ever touch Docking again, if no one was complaining about it, if we didn't see all the gameplay issues it had, if we didn't keep getting feedback from people (both comp AND pub) telling us "it sucks".
A lot of thought went into the changes, a lot of testing time went into the changes, a lot of work and effort went into the changes. So, yes, it is hard to believe that we need to make large changes based on a different set of people telling us "it sucks" after the map has only been out for a week, not to mention many of these people are saying that they refuse to even play the map.
We appreciate the few people in this thread that have been constructive and who attempted to provide some solid reasons for their displeasure with the map changes, and we will certainly take all feedback into consideration over the coming weeks. While it is unlikely that the current version of Docking will change in any substantial way, due to all the other tasks that need to be worked on (and unlikely that it actually needs any large changes) , we will certainly look into what smaller fixes can be made to improve the map.
Just out of curiosity do people think we just make changes for the sake of changes?
Probably not, but for some reason that appears to be the end result. Perception can often be more important than reality.
On the docking changes, pubbers are still telling you it sucks, so nothing gained there. Maybe comp players like it better, I don't know, but why waste such a disproportionate amount of time on changing the map for the nth time for the minority? It doesn't make logical sense.
If the mapper couldn't get it perfect the last n-1 times, what makes you think it will be better now after all this effort that could have been spent elsewhere to the benefit of everyone? I'm sure more issues will show up.
The Fade and Lerk changes in the BT are another such example of where the end result just seems like change for the sake of change. They don't result in any improvement, they just change how the lifeforms are played. Swapping blink and shadowstep for one specific example... just why?
What's wrong with someone saying the map sucks so bad they refuse to play it? Maybe you should take something from that rather than getting mad, saying they are incorrect, and then discounting their opinions for whatever the flavor off the month reason is around here (they don't like change!). If your customers refuse to even play your map, you are doing something wrong!!!!!
What's wrong with someone saying the map sucks so bad they refuse to play it? Maybe you should take something from that rather than getting mad, saying they are incorrect, and then discounting their opinions for whatever the flavor off the month reason is around here (they don't like change!). If your customers refuse to even play your map, you are doing something wrong!!!!!
What if I say I like the docking changes. What do they do then...
That is why they need valid factual information of what is wrong/right with a map.
Docking has always been a problematic map...the most recent changes do nothing to fix the underlying issue.
Removing the res node from courtyard did nothing to help reduce the importance of that area (which is due to it being central and allowing easy access to 4 tech points).
Docking worked better when there was simply a vent between courtyard and maintenance.
The more recent changes still do nothing to address this underlying issue, it has been a marine dominant map for a while.
The spawns got locked down so only terminal would be marine spawn, this was due to other spawn locations allowing marines too much access to the rest of the map (locker and gen probably the worst 2 examples).
The issue this change came in to address has been re-invented due the afore mentioned changes.
The central hub access of courtyard needs to be addressed, Marines should not have great mobilty early game (they have PG's and JP's for that)..yet with the layout of the map they do.
Going down to 4 tech points....I dislike veil for the lack of a 5th tech point...what it means is you will not see top tech v top tech.
I see the solution being simple enough...make Cafe a tech point again...remove the door between cafe and landing pad (perhaps replace with a vent).
Revert passage between courtyard and maintenace to being a high access vent (so marines have to go through locker or via stab/gen).
Marine movement should be slow and you should be stuck going the long way, gives you a reason to get up PG's and research JP's.
Its not surprising that this map has been so marine dominant, going down to 4 tech points does nothing to change this.
analogy time. when I go see the optometrist, he gives me a choice between two lenses, im not an optometrist, as I'm not a map dev, I don't know exactly why one lens is better than the other, it just looks better. if he wants me to elaborate, he asks me questions about the two views. saying that "simply saying a map sucks "isn't constructive is certainly true, but the very premise that criticism must always be constructive to be informative is false. given two choices, and having a very vocal objection to one of the choices, is in and of itself constructive to a certain degree. I don't like docking as it is now, I didn't really like docking as it was before either, but I prefer thatversion to this one. also, I am not an optometrist. ask more detailed questions and you'll probably get more detailed criticism. hell, I even like descent more than the current docking, and I despise descent... except for the plushie gorgies.
Nobody said you had to be a mapper to criticise a map. And you certainly don't have to be a mapper to understand map balance.
Anyone intelligent enough to play and understand this game should be capable of constructive thought. No one is asking you to actually balance the map all by yourself. Devs and mappers need useful input from everyone, positive and negative, to weigh out how people feel overall and what needs to be done. Just think about what you like and don't like doing on the map, and what you think works and doesn't work. It's not that hard. If you can't do that on even the most minimal level ('I don't like courtyard because you can reach maintenance too quickly'), your "feedback" is useless and you shouldn't be surprised to be called out on that.
So far, most naysayers didn't actually give any useful feedback. Shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that most others will assume they're just crying about change and/or haven't given the map a real chance.
Got to play it for the first time yesterday evening. Can't really tell how it would have played out because we started in Departures as aliens, went for an instant second Hive in Generator but then ended up with that Hive never spawning any eggs after it was built, so we basically had 40 res sunk into a useless forward position that we could not hold while constantly being egg-locked. Not sure if it was just a one-time issue or if Generator is easily prone to not finding enough spawn room for eggs.
Shall we just go back to the first ever post-release iteration of Docking, and just be done with it? You know, the one with the "loop" in East Wing that had a Power Node that you could never get to stay on, and the imbalanced RT on Landing Pad, and the never-used corridor through Sub Access to outside Bar?
I bet half the people in here wanting "old Docking" back don't actually remember the true old Docking. There have been SO many changes made to this map over time, every single one of them has been made with the public players in mind, on guidance of the competitive players. Give UWE a break and get over it, the game is significantly more balanced than the one I was playing 12 months ago (before Exos were introduced) and I'm thankful for every change they've made... even if it didn't fix as much as we wanted, it fixed something at least!
I used to love ns_bast too when I was a pubber (or when I was low-skill competitive player). If you look carefully, you can find my post defending bast long time ago. Defending its "atmosphere" or whatever. When I picked up more skill and, more importantly better understanding of the game, my opinions made 180 turn. Bast was a horrible map, but it had "nostalgia" value. If all maps in NS1 had been like bast, the game would have died a long time. It was always the competitive maps that got played a trillion times on public games. Sure I didn't mind playing ns_nothing or ns_hera from time to time just for the variety's sake (unlike most competitive players) but at least in NS1, competitive depth in maps meant also public depth in terms of gameplay.
I'm not really telling this story to give feedback on docking because right now I'm not in position to give it, but rather illustrate the evolution of my own opinions over period of years. This also happened to other people, basically to most people who went from pub to competitive (and I mean to high-level). And I probably disagreed just as aggressively as some posters here with the "competitive" folks. I was oblivious to my own biases. I think people should take into calculation that there are people who know the game a lot better than you do, and be skeptical of such disagreements. I'm not even saying this to anyone one person, just a general remark.
I think nostalgia is dangerous to some extent. There was huge nostalgia adoration of 1.04, both pub and competitive for a long time. But it was all just a massive delusion. 1.04 was horrible. I can argue if you ask but otherwise I'll spare the talk.
I used to love ns_bast too when I was a pubber (or when I was low-skill competitive player). If you look carefully, you can find my post defending bast long time ago. Defending its "atmosphere" or whatever. When I picked up more skill and, more importantly better understanding of the game, my opinions made 180 turn. Bast was a horrible map, but it had "nostalgia" value. If all maps in NS1 had been like bast, the game would have died a long time. It was always the competitive maps that got played a trillion times on public games. Sure I didn't mind playing ns_nothing or ns_hera from time to time just for the variety's sake (unlike most competitive players) but at least in NS1, competitive depth in maps meant also public depth in terms of gameplay.
I'm not really telling this story to give feedback on docking because right now I'm not in position to give it, but rather illustrate the evolution of my own opinions over period of years. This also happened to other people, basically to most people who went from pub to competitive (and I mean to high-level). And I probably disagreed just as aggressively as some posters here with the "competitive" folks. I was oblivious to my own biases. I think people should take into calculation that there are people who know the game a lot better than you do, and be skeptical of such disagreements. I'm not even saying this to anyone one person, just a general remark.
I think nostalgia is dangerous to some extent. There was huge nostalgia adoration of 1.04, both pub and competitive for a long time. But it was all just a massive delusion. 1.04 was horrible. I can argue if you ask but otherwise I'll spare the talk.
Nobody said you had to be a mapper to criticise a map. And you certainly don't have to be a mapper to understand map balance.
Anyone intelligent enough to play and understand this game should be capable of constructive thought. No one is asking you to actually balance the map all by yourself. Devs and mappers need useful input from everyone, positive and negative, to weigh out how people feel overall and what needs to be done. Just think about what you like and don't like doing on the map, and what you think works and doesn't work. It's not that hard. If you can't do that on even the most minimal level ('I don't like courtyard because you can reach maintenance too quickly'), your "feedback" is useless and you shouldn't be surprised to be called out on that.
So far, most naysayers didn't actually give any useful feedback. Shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that most others will assume they're just crying about change and/or haven't given the map a real chance.
my point in that post was to highlight that someone with knowledge of mapping, or what makes for a satisfying map experience, might want to lead a discussion ifpeople want good criticism. your critique of their criticism isn't very constructive. the all inclusive your of course.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
@amoral I appreciate the point you're trying to make with that analogy.. But it just doesn't hold up. People tend to see doctors when there is something wrong, like black dots or squiggly things in your eye, to use your optometrist example.
As a customer /player / patient,
You provide the symptom and the professional provides the solution.
"Dr it hurts" "where?" "I don't know I'm not a doctor" just doesn't work unless he's a mind reader. Even inaccurate symptoms are better than nothing.
I don't see major complaints about docking in this forum until this thread. If it is the complaints about docking that made you change the map and prevented you from working on other maps, then the complaints that you are now seeing and the fall in popularity of the map from top to next to the bottom (descent gets bottom) should mean that you will be forced against your will as before to change docking again. However, I think you are not going to change the map now in SPITE of the complaints.
Just produce a v1 of the map. Let the users play the map they enjoy. There is absolutely no harm what so ever in providing both versions of the map. Everybody wins. No complaining about the new map because the old one is there. Come on. Do it!
Comments
Something is seriously wrong with mapping in this game, Docking, Mineshaft, Refinery, Decent, Tram have all seen extensive overhauls of entire rooms and layouts, some more so than others.
Is this even being looked into ? Or is this the status quo ? Do the mappers like seeing alot of their time and effort wasted like this ? Are mappers going about map creation the wrong way ? Is Gameplay taking a backseat to Aesthetics ? Is there a better way of doing things ?
I get that we have to salvage maps by revamping them, however its reduced the amount of maps we could have had at this point. Theres a good saying," measure twice, cut once" Builders say this because they know if you mess up the planning stage, you could end up spending a lot of time fixing your mistakes.
There was a brief point where mappers started to give Tech points away so that teams didnt have to work to secure them, Docking and mineshaft suffered heavily because of this. While Mineshaft has been overhauled, we still see a reilc of this crazy thought process in cafeteria on docking.
I think there needs to be some serious discussions amongst the mapping community on what is the best way forward.
Another good saying "nothing good has ever come from a committee."
The problem isn't "change", the problem is people legitimately don't like the map and yet their feedback is being dismissed with the wave of a hand because "you just don't like change". It is.. disappointing..
Personally, I like change. Change often brings refreshing gameplay and opens up new avenues for exploration. But not all change is good.
Currently ns2 maps with exception of viel have 5 tech point and I would argue that double can be as valuable as a tech point...
As such docking is the only map with 4 key positions, with phase tech marines can hold 3 positions with relative ease, it's when they try to hold 4 or more that they become spread thin...
Solution... Add a 5th point of importance (tech or double)... My preference would be to return caf to a tech point but adjust landing so caf and term at farther apart...
My first constructive criticism is that I just won't play the map, and that's my right. If more maps are destroyed (in my opinion) in this manner then I will exercise my right to not play or recommend this game anymore. Keep in mind as well I paid $40 for this back in 2009 the day the pre-purchase was allowed because I believe in UWE. After all the delays started I used to joke that NS2 would come out "right after Duke Nukem Forever" - and then that comment wasn't funny any more after Duke was released.
My second constructive criticism is that paying customers at any price - even all those who either got it free from a friend or paid $8 - have a right to voice their opinions, and that should be taken into account by developers to make better products. I don't expect UWE to bend to our will, but I hope that the small outcry over this will help them to make better decisions on other maps in the future. Take the small outcry on the forums and consider all the players who don't even know these forums exist, much less come to post here and I bet you'll find tons of other players who just plain don't like the changes to the map. I'm sure you'll find a lot of competitive players who do like the changes.
When developers begin to call any of their players whiners - or refer to their concerns as "unnecessary hate" is when I start to worry for the long term viability of the company - ANY company.
And that's awesome. I'm not a mapper and as a player I can't put my finger on exactly what would need changed to make the map better for me - short of a rollback - because I'm more interested in biting and shooting than designing. I think a lot of people on this thread expect everyone to act like a map designer and "solve the problem" when most of us can barely express what we like or don't like, we just know we do or don't.
But, it all may be for naught because who knows- the next update with balance tweaks might make this map perfect and the others play like crap. :-)
But you cannot expect the devs or anyone else for that matter to take any opinion very seriously, if there is absolutely nothing backing it up. You have a right to come to the forums and say that you don't like something and that it's your right without having to say why you don't like it, but if the devs start listening to people like that, nothing ever is going to change. No matter what's being altered, there will always be people opposing it. Every single time. And the only solution is to stay in status quo, which is arguably the worst choice. What matters are facts and arguments on why something is bad and how to fix it, or why it's good and doesn't need changing for the time being. Provide that if you want to have an impact. You have a right to express your opinion without saying anything to back it up, but you can't expect anyone to care.
So if you can't offer a solution, at least describe what is wrong or what you don't like.
If you can't do that either, then there's zero feedback for devs to go on, so there's no direction on how to change anything - so nothing will.
So i suggest trying to analyze and really consider what you don't like, that way no one can claim its just aversion, but instead discuss what needs changing to make a happy customer.
Let me TL;DR the above posts for you:
Try explaining why it sucks in detail and maybe offer suggestions that could improve it or just keep saying it sucks and accomplish nothing.
You should re read my post and @industry
Devs aren't mind readers.
Can we have a version 1 and 2 of the docking map?
Even more people told the devs the game sucked before there was talk of the BT. Now people are telling the devs the game will suck when the BT is introduced. Whatever changes would take place instead of the BT, there would be a ton of people telling the devs the game will suck. The game sucked, it sucks now and it will continue sucking until the end of time according to a ton of people. The only reasonable way forward is to try to make the game suck less via dev reasoning and listening to the people who actually voice their opinions in a way that gives the devs any damn clue as to why the game sucks.
I'm embarrassed for this community for having to say that out loud.
//edit: I'm sorry I said BT when this thread is about the new Docking. It's truly hilarious, though, that replacing the word 'BT' with 'new Docking' doesn't change the message at all. Truly, truly hilarious.
*Snip* Cease name calling and inflammatory behavior. - Ironhorse
A lot of thought went into the changes, a lot of testing time went into the changes, a lot of work and effort went into the changes. So, yes, it is hard to believe that we need to make large changes based on a different set of people telling us "it sucks" after the map has only been out for a week, not to mention many of these people are saying that they refuse to even play the map.
We appreciate the few people in this thread that have been constructive and who attempted to provide some solid reasons for their displeasure with the map changes, and we will certainly take all feedback into consideration over the coming weeks. While it is unlikely that the current version of Docking will change in any substantial way, due to all the other tasks that need to be worked on (and unlikely that it actually needs any large changes) , we will certainly look into what smaller fixes can be made to improve the map.
Probably not, but for some reason that appears to be the end result. Perception can often be more important than reality.
On the docking changes, pubbers are still telling you it sucks, so nothing gained there. Maybe comp players like it better, I don't know, but why waste such a disproportionate amount of time on changing the map for the nth time for the minority? It doesn't make logical sense.
If the mapper couldn't get it perfect the last n-1 times, what makes you think it will be better now after all this effort that could have been spent elsewhere to the benefit of everyone? I'm sure more issues will show up.
The Fade and Lerk changes in the BT are another such example of where the end result just seems like change for the sake of change. They don't result in any improvement, they just change how the lifeforms are played. Swapping blink and shadowstep for one specific example... just why?
What's wrong with someone saying the map sucks so bad they refuse to play it? Maybe you should take something from that rather than getting mad, saying they are incorrect, and then discounting their opinions for whatever the flavor off the month reason is around here (they don't like change!). If your customers refuse to even play your map, you are doing something wrong!!!!!
What if I say I like the docking changes. What do they do then...
That is why they need valid factual information of what is wrong/right with a map.
Removing the res node from courtyard did nothing to help reduce the importance of that area (which is due to it being central and allowing easy access to 4 tech points).
Docking worked better when there was simply a vent between courtyard and maintenance.
The more recent changes still do nothing to address this underlying issue, it has been a marine dominant map for a while.
The spawns got locked down so only terminal would be marine spawn, this was due to other spawn locations allowing marines too much access to the rest of the map (locker and gen probably the worst 2 examples).
The issue this change came in to address has been re-invented due the afore mentioned changes.
The central hub access of courtyard needs to be addressed, Marines should not have great mobilty early game (they have PG's and JP's for that)..yet with the layout of the map they do.
Going down to 4 tech points....I dislike veil for the lack of a 5th tech point...what it means is you will not see top tech v top tech.
I see the solution being simple enough...make Cafe a tech point again...remove the door between cafe and landing pad (perhaps replace with a vent).
Revert passage between courtyard and maintenace to being a high access vent (so marines have to go through locker or via stab/gen).
Marine movement should be slow and you should be stuck going the long way, gives you a reason to get up PG's and research JP's.
Its not surprising that this map has been so marine dominant, going down to 4 tech points does nothing to change this.
Anyone intelligent enough to play and understand this game should be capable of constructive thought. No one is asking you to actually balance the map all by yourself. Devs and mappers need useful input from everyone, positive and negative, to weigh out how people feel overall and what needs to be done. Just think about what you like and don't like doing on the map, and what you think works and doesn't work. It's not that hard. If you can't do that on even the most minimal level ('I don't like courtyard because you can reach maintenance too quickly'), your "feedback" is useless and you shouldn't be surprised to be called out on that.
So far, most naysayers didn't actually give any useful feedback. Shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that most others will assume they're just crying about change and/or haven't given the map a real chance.
I bet half the people in here wanting "old Docking" back don't actually remember the true old Docking. There have been SO many changes made to this map over time, every single one of them has been made with the public players in mind, on guidance of the competitive players. Give UWE a break and get over it, the game is significantly more balanced than the one I was playing 12 months ago (before Exos were introduced) and I'm thankful for every change they've made... even if it didn't fix as much as we wanted, it fixed something at least!
I used to love ns_bast too when I was a pubber (or when I was low-skill competitive player). If you look carefully, you can find my post defending bast long time ago. Defending its "atmosphere" or whatever. When I picked up more skill and, more importantly better understanding of the game, my opinions made 180 turn. Bast was a horrible map, but it had "nostalgia" value. If all maps in NS1 had been like bast, the game would have died a long time. It was always the competitive maps that got played a trillion times on public games. Sure I didn't mind playing ns_nothing or ns_hera from time to time just for the variety's sake (unlike most competitive players) but at least in NS1, competitive depth in maps meant also public depth in terms of gameplay.
I'm not really telling this story to give feedback on docking because right now I'm not in position to give it, but rather illustrate the evolution of my own opinions over period of years. This also happened to other people, basically to most people who went from pub to competitive (and I mean to high-level). And I probably disagreed just as aggressively as some posters here with the "competitive" folks. I was oblivious to my own biases. I think people should take into calculation that there are people who know the game a lot better than you do, and be skeptical of such disagreements. I'm not even saying this to anyone one person, just a general remark.
I think nostalgia is dangerous to some extent. There was huge nostalgia adoration of 1.04, both pub and competitive for a long time. But it was all just a massive delusion. 1.04 was horrible. I can argue if you ask but otherwise I'll spare the talk.
jiriki has played 2h of ns2. Point invalidi
my point in that post was to highlight that someone with knowledge of mapping, or what makes for a satisfying map experience, might want to lead a discussion ifpeople want good criticism. your critique of their criticism isn't very constructive. the all inclusive your of course.
As a customer /player / patient,
You provide the symptom and the professional provides the solution.
"Dr it hurts" "where?" "I don't know I'm not a doctor" just doesn't work unless he's a mind reader. Even inaccurate symptoms are better than nothing.
I don't see major complaints about docking in this forum until this thread. If it is the complaints about docking that made you change the map and prevented you from working on other maps, then the complaints that you are now seeing and the fall in popularity of the map from top to next to the bottom (descent gets bottom) should mean that you will be forced against your will as before to change docking again. However, I think you are not going to change the map now in SPITE of the complaints.
Just produce a v1 of the map. Let the users play the map they enjoy. There is absolutely no harm what so ever in providing both versions of the map. Everybody wins. No complaining about the new map because the old one is there. Come on. Do it!